Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 26 Jul 2021 at 9:06, Steve Clunn via EV wrote:

> If your 12v alx battery is going bad it could be pulling power from the DC to
> DC converter and draining the traction battery down more than usual.

Well said, and quite possible.  

I had that happen to an EV in storage many years ago.  I'd neglected to open 
the main breaker when I garaged it, so the DC:DC was still floating the 
house battery.  The house battery developed a shorted cell.  The DC:DC was 
set at 6-cell float, not 5-cell, so it kept pouring its current limit into 
the house battery, even when the traction battery's voltage fell too low. 

When I went to drive the EV again, it had a trashed house battery, a flat 
and sulphated traction battery, and a failed DC:DC.  Lesson learned.

This recollection makes me wonder whether production EVs are designed to 
guard against such failures.  With all the computer power they have on 
board, you'd think it would be easy to add a few pages of code to recognize 
that kind of fault and shut everything down.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 But only what I tell it
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Steve Clunn via EV]

If your 12v alx battery is going bad it could be pulling power from the DC
to DC converter and draining the traction battery down more than usual.
Steve Clunn
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

Some of you know this, and the info is not current, but is good for LiFePO.
Anyhow, just to be complete in the discussion:

When a cell is discharged, the lithium ions are on the anode and the
cathode is depleted of ions. This is a pretty benign state chemically. But
as the cathode loads up Li ions from charging the anode becomes very
reactive. So reactive that it starts to tear up the electrolyte. Heat just
makes it worse. With advancements in additives to help the electrolyte stay
healthy Li cells became steadily more durable.

Older CALB and other brands cells are liable to be deficient after many
years. Buyer beware.
Maya WoulfeiFEPO and circa 2015

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 12:20 AM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> For LiFePO, a parasitic load might be protective. It's that full charge
> that is destructive.
>
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>>
>> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it
>> sit
>> > around, especially in a hot location.
>>
>> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
>> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>>
>> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
>> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>>
>> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
>> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
>> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For
>> long
>> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
>> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>>
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>>  happened after that.
>>
>>   -- Unknown
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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>
>
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Alan Arrison via EV]

I have a 9 year old pack of CALB blue 100Ah cells. I am seeing cells 
with very high self discharge. Probably 10's of milliamps. I am 
concerned that these high resistance shorts will become low resistance 
shorts and burn my garage down. (There is no excessive BMS loading)


Al

On 7/24/2021 9:01 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV wrote:

Hi Guys,

I have an 8 year old LiFePO4 pack in my car and wonder if anyone knows what the 
end of life failure mode is for these?

Over the pandemic lock down I was not driving the car for 3 months and noticed 
one day that all the cells were flat, ~2V. I attributed this to some parasitic 
loads over the 3mo, and charged it back up.

Then, with a full charge I drove ~10 miles (about 25% of my 'old' range) and 
parked, and after a couple weeks noticed I was back ~2V per cell.

I put it on charge and it seems to have charged up and is holding voltage now.

Is this how LiFePO4 batteries toss in the towel or do I still have a parasitic 
load to debug? What is the failure mode?

Thanks for any tips.
Chris
http://www.evalbum.com/4743
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Christopher Darilek via EV]

For the 8 years I've had this pack my practice has been to charge it at a C/15 
rate and stop when the first cell hits 3.45V. Its a 18kWh CALB.

You could watch the cells go from ~3.32V to 3.45V pretty quickly, once they 
left 3.32V they'd be at 3.45V in <2mins and the charge stops.

It's been hot, central Texas. I just got back from a range test and it's at 20 
miles now. When the pack was new I claimed it had a 50 mile range, but I never 
went more than about 40 miles. 

I somewhat eliminated the parasitic load issue (reducing range?) by not letting 
it sit long after charge. But I plan to borrow a meter from work to check it.

I'm going to cycle it a few more times, to see if capacity recovers after the 
lockdown sitting period, I think someone suggested that.

26236 miles total

-Chris

ps. I must confess, my EV grin is wider driving our Chevy Bolt, even if it does 
plan to catch fire someday..


On Saturday, July 24, 2021, 11:21:27 PM CDT, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote: 





For LiFePO, a parasitic load might be protective. It's that full charge
that is destructive.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
> > around, especially in a hot location.
>
> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>
> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>
> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For long
> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>      First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>      happened after that.
>
>                                                  -- Unknown
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

For LiFePO, a parasitic load might be protective. It's that full charge
that is destructive.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
> > around, especially in a hot location.
>
> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>
> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>
> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For long
> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>  happened after that.
>
>   -- Unknown
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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>


-- 
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

My personal experience is with the LiFePOcells, but the issue is there for
all/most? It's a shame because they are the most affordable (well maybe, I
haven't bought any since 2015).

In particular, the temperature at which trouble starts is significantly
lower for LiFePO.

I think if you go right out and use a full charge you have no large issues.
It's probably best never to float them like people do with PbSO cells. When
fully charged any excess charging just heats the cells up. I had a pack for
my trike, about %500 worth. I would ride to work ~25 miles in a little more
than an hour. That was about all it was good for with new cells. I could
average about 23mph. I would park it at an outlet on the south wall of a
building and set up the charge. Not a very sophisticated charger. It would
charge fully and I would let it sit and soak. After a couple months of this
I really started having low capacity. Not a very economical situation. I
became aware of the work at the Jeff Dahn lab at Dalhousie and got a much
better understanding what I was doing wrong. Too late though for that pack.

I think stopping short of 100%SOC is a good idea even if you are going to
ride off immediately. In terms of how to measure and manage the charging,
the voltage changes very little as SOC rises. How to get it right?  Its a
conundrum.

Jack Ricard put some effort into watching cells sit on the shelf and they
do slowly lose SOC. He knew how to measure SOC accurately by drawing them
down. He also saw a small but significant and permanent loss from full
capacity, year after year, just sitting them in storage. I am not clear on
what exactly causes that loss. LiFePO could charge back up pretty good if
you didn't do what I did.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
> > around, especially in a hot location.
>
> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>
> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>
> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For long
> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>  happened after that.
>
>   -- Unknown
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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>


-- 
Michael E. Ross
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 24 Jul 2021 at 18:38, paul dove via EV wrote:

> I suggest you disrobe it and charge it on a regular basis. 

Oh, you young guys.  That's all you think about.  :-)

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
> around, especially in a hot location.

Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a 
lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.

It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from 
"inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.  

I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's 
powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power 
the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For long 
term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible - 
but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what 
 happened after that.  

  -- Unknown
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
around, especially in a hot location. For long term storage, I would guess
the best thing is maybe 50% SOC, and keep it as cool as you can without
actually refrigerating it (though I don't know if that is a bad thing). You
can quickly ruin a LiFPO pack by charging your eBike in a hot sunny place,
and leaving it on the charger after full charge, and with the sun. I speak
from experience. I would avoid exceeding 90°F when fully charged.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 9:01 AM Christopher Darilek via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I have an 8 year old LiFePO4 pack in my car and wonder if anyone knows
> what the end of life failure mode is for these?
>
> Over the pandemic lock down I was not driving the car for 3 months and
> noticed one day that all the cells were flat, ~2V. I attributed this to
> some parasitic loads over the 3mo, and charged it back up.
>
> Then, with a full charge I drove ~10 miles (about 25% of my 'old' range)
> and parked, and after a couple weeks noticed I was back ~2V per cell.
>
> I put it on charge and it seems to have charged up and is holding voltage
> now.
>
> Is this how LiFePO4 batteries toss in the towel or do I still have a
> parasitic load to debug? What is the failure mode?
>
> Thanks for any tips.
> Chris
> http://www.evalbum.com/4743
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[paul dove via EV]

Here is my experience. I had some on the bench for a year and half. They 
voltage on some had dropped so I was curious what capacity was left. I 
discharged them and got 45 Ah. So I charged them and did another discharge and 
got about 60Ah. So I diss a charge and discharge 3 more times. The fifth time I 
got 100 Ah or full capacity. I suggest you disrobe it and charge it on a 
regular basis. Maybe a few more times now to recover capacity loss. I also have 
a paper about it if you want to read it I’ll dig it up.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, July 24, 2021, 8:01 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV 
 wrote:

Hi Guys,

I have an 8 year old LiFePO4 pack in my car and wonder if anyone knows what the 
end of life failure mode is for these?

Over the pandemic lock down I was not driving the car for 3 months and noticed 
one day that all the cells were flat, ~2V. I attributed this to some parasitic 
loads over the 3mo, and charged it back up. 

Then, with a full charge I drove ~10 miles (about 25% of my 'old' range) and 
parked, and after a couple weeks noticed I was back ~2V per cell. 

I put it on charge and it seems to have charged up and is holding voltage now.

Is this how LiFePO4 batteries toss in the towel or do I still have a parasitic 
load to debug? What is the failure mode? 

Thanks for any tips.
Chris
http://www.evalbum.com/4743
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Why don't you check the current draw with the car asleep?   Sounds like
it's definitely some parasitic load.   If it was internal to the cells, it
would likely go down to zero.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 6:01 AM Christopher Darilek via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I have an 8 year old LiFePO4 pack in my car and wonder if anyone knows
> what the end of life failure mode is for these?
>
> Over the pandemic lock down I was not driving the car for 3 months and
> noticed one day that all the cells were flat, ~2V. I attributed this to
> some parasitic loads over the 3mo, and charged it back up.
>
> Then, with a full charge I drove ~10 miles (about 25% of my 'old' range)
> and parked, and after a couple weeks noticed I was back ~2V per cell.
>
> I put it on charge and it seems to have charged up and is holding voltage
> now.
>
> Is this how LiFePO4 batteries toss in the towel or do I still have a
> parasitic load to debug? What is the failure mode?
>
> Thanks for any tips.
> Chris
> http://www.evalbum.com/4743
> ___
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