Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
The problem I have with relying on simple pack voltage measurement to control the charger is that eventually, as the pack ages, one or more cells are going to go out of balance, become the 'weakest link' and cause the capacity of the pack as a whole to unnecessarily reduce. From a safety perspective (safety of the pack) I suppose the Light-meter method is as good as any but it is the vagueness of its operation that is the issue for me. Maybe we'll see that cells of certain types simply don't change their behaviour relative to the rest in a given pack but it seems unlikely. If the pack does go out of whack then it is going to be a potential pain to balance them manually. But for some the cost saving of not having a BMMS may outweigh the agro. MW On 12 Oct 2014, at 22:11, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation. Not in any of my reading. You can believe what ever you like. I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end exactly the same. The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147 volts. I have never seen any study done on top balancing lithium batteries. I would love it if someone should come up with one. That a left over procedure from lead acid batteries on which it actually works. Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2014, at 4:02 PM, Cruisin via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very risky. A BMS is designed to perform this function, but turns off the charger when a single cell reaches the pre-programmed voltage, after permitting all cells to achieve the same voltage by shunting. It also protects against over dis-discharge. A single meter cannot perform these tasks in anyway shape or form. The SOC meter provides all the information concerning usage and is VERY accurate and programmable. All American electric production cars use very sophisticated BMS systems to achieve longevity due to a mandatory 8-year 100k mile warranty required in CA. Don't risk a expensive Li-ion battery pack by relying on a meter to shutoff the charger at a set voltage. Could be used as a backup if desired. If we learn from the big guns on how they do it, we will be on the right track and prevent a disaster that too many can attest to. My 2-cents worth. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
Hi Rick and All, Thanks all for the experiences so far. I appreciate it as do others.Please let us know how yours is working with lithium charging too as we need a good sample as we need a good low cost wthr meter especially with adjustable relay outputs. Cruisin, yes I know more complicated BMS, pricey, could be better thought not necessarily, but bottom balancing with top voltage charging limit and Lee Hart's Battery Bridge fault indicators will alert me to a bad cell if and when that happens. I haven't found enough on yours to know if it is good for me or not. Is there details, price on it somewhere I can study? While 1 BattB on the whole pack could work 1 per 2 modules housed in a lightproof box to a phototransistor or an optical coupler would at low cost monitor each module if needed for fault conditions of not just a bad cell but connections, etc that can damage too. Since EV production car lithium specs are so tight this can work it seems along with not discharging below 10% and not charging above 95% is likely a good way to go. Since it has worked on even the better of Chinese lithium, LG cells shouldn't be a problem. I'll charge full power until the end as it'll show a fault better, before damage happens in my system is the plan. Please those doing similar or other version please let me/us know how it's doing? Thanks, Jerry Dycus . On Sunday, October 12, 2014 10:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly for that. It seems to be pretty accurate. I have bought things from EVTV even though they are more expensive than other sources, but these I buy right from lightobject because Jack has cranked up the price way too much. Their shipping is fair and quick. I also use one of their JLD-612DC temperature controllers to control the water heater in my truck. It too works well. A problem, however, with controlling a charger is knowing what to trigger on. The normal charge scheme is to charge to a certain voltage at whatever amperage you can manage and then hold that voltage and taper the current off to some small value. I don't think you can really duplicate that. I suppose you could turn it off at some voltage and when the pack voltage drops (which it will almost immediately) turn it back on until it stops dropping below the threshold. You could trigger on Ah but I always put more in than I took out so that's problematic too. --Rick On 10/12/2014 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded? Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc? Thanks, Jerry Dycus ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA ) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141013/0e90fb99/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
On Sunday, October 12, 2014 10:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly for that. How do you find the LED display does in bright sun? Anyone have a nice LCD energy or AH meter they like? Any feelings of negativity that you carry around are only hurting yourself. These feelings are stored in your body and become like a rotting core of energy that poisons your every moment. Why encumber yourself with feelings of anger, hatred, and thirst for revenge? Any negative feelings you harbor do not hurt the person they are directed to; these feelings only hurt the person who is carrying them — YOU. -- Marie T. Russell Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
I've got the Blue LED version. No problem seeing it on sunny days. Kinda too bright at night though... On Mon Oct 13 13:46:16 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said: On Sunday, October 12, 2014 10:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly for that. How do you find the LED display does in bright sun? Anyone have a nice LCD energy or AH meter they like? -- Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams... ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
According to whom? Sent from my iPad On Oct 13, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cruisin via EVev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very risky. Paul Dove wrote: Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation. Not in any of my reading. You can believe what ever you like. I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end exactly the same. The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147 volts. Martin WINLOW via EV wrote: The problem I have with relying on simple pack voltage measurement to control the charger is that eventually, as the pack ages, one or more cells are going to go out of balance, become the 'weakest link' and cause the capacity of the pack as a whole to unnecessarily reduce. From a safety perspective (safety of the pack) I suppose the Light-meter method is as good as any but it is the vagueness of its operation that is the issue for me. When the pack is new, and if the cells are already well balanced, then measuring the overall voltage works. But, the cells might NOT be initially well balanced. If you bought them from the cheapest source, they almost certainly didn't take the time to balance them for you. Just because the cells are at the same voltage doesn't mean they are balanced. Voltage is not a good indicator of state of charge for lithium cells. Then, the cells are going to age. Time is not likely to improve them; instead it's almost certain to make them worse. Finally, consider this. You *will* use the pack until it fails! And the failure modes of lithium cells can be catastrophic (early destruction of an expensive pack, serious fires, etc.) With no BMS, nothing will detect, warn, or prevent disastrous failures. -- Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently. -- Henry Ford -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
It is just a panel meter. I use one to turn off my charger. It has worked fine for that and it seems accurate but I haven't compared it to other data. Capacity is another issue since it drops slightly with every charge and discharge cycle. It will keep good record of what was put in. I haven't used mine both for charge and discharge so I have no experience there but it worked fine for turning off the charger and counting Amphours. Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2014, at 2:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded? Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc? Thanks, Jerry Dycus -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141012/42cdcd2b/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very risky. A BMS is designed to perform this function, but turns off the charger when a single cell reaches the pre-programmed voltage, after permitting all cells to achieve the same voltage by shunting. It also protects against over dis-discharge. A single meter cannot perform these tasks in anyway shape or form. The SOC meter provides all the information concerning usage and is VERY accurate and programmable. All American electric production cars use very sophisticated BMS systems to achieve longevity due to a mandatory 8-year 100k mile warranty required in CA. Don't risk a expensive Li-ion battery pack by relying on a meter to shutoff the charger at a set voltage. Could be used as a backup if desired. If we learn from the big guns on how they do it, we will be on the right track and prevent a disaster that too many can attest to. My 2-cents worth. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lightobject-meter-experience-tp4672073p4672079.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation. Not in any of my reading. You can believe what ever you like. I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end exactly the same. The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147 volts. I have never seen any study done on top balancing lithium batteries. I would love it if someone should come up with one. That a left over procedure from lead acid batteries on which it actually works. Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2014, at 4:02 PM, Cruisin via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very risky. A BMS is designed to perform this function, but turns off the charger when a single cell reaches the pre-programmed voltage, after permitting all cells to achieve the same voltage by shunting. It also protects against over dis-discharge. A single meter cannot perform these tasks in anyway shape or form. The SOC meter provides all the information concerning usage and is VERY accurate and programmable. All American electric production cars use very sophisticated BMS systems to achieve longevity due to a mandatory 8-year 100k mile warranty required in CA. Don't risk a expensive Li-ion battery pack by relying on a meter to shutoff the charger at a set voltage. Could be used as a backup if desired. If we learn from the big guns on how they do it, we will be on the right track and prevent a disaster that too many can attest to. My 2-cents worth. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lightobject-meter-experience-tp4672073p4672079.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
Jerry, I have several JLD temperature controllers in service about my lab and they work flawlessly so far. Based on their performance I happily bought the WattHour meter, but I haven't really used it yet. For the cost they are certainly worth a try. Mike On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded? Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc? Thanks, Jerry Dycus -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141012/42cdcd2b/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141012/36bc096c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly for that. It seems to be pretty accurate. I have bought things from EVTV even though they are more expensive than other sources, but these I buy right from lightobject because Jack has cranked up the price way too much. Their shipping is fair and quick. I also use one of their JLD-612DC temperature controllers to control the water heater in my truck. It too works well. A problem, however, with controlling a charger is knowing what to trigger on. The normal charge scheme is to charge to a certain voltage at whatever amperage you can manage and then hold that voltage and taper the current off to some small value. I don't think you can really duplicate that. I suppose you could turn it off at some voltage and when the pack voltage drops (which it will almost immediately) turn it back on until it stops dropping below the threshold. You could trigger on Ah but I always put more in than I took out so that's problematic too. --Rick On 10/12/2014 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded? Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc? Thanks, Jerry Dycus ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
I skip constant voltage. My cell voltage at the end of charge is 3.34 volts after settling for several hours. When I use cc - cv mode they settle to 3.38 volts. You don't loose more than a couple miles range by skipping the cv mode. Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2014, at 9:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly for that. It seems to be pretty accurate. I have bought things from EVTV even though they are more expensive than other sources, but these I buy right from lightobject because Jack has cranked up the price way too much. Their shipping is fair and quick. I also use one of their JLD-612DC temperature controllers to control the water heater in my truck. It too works well. A problem, however, with controlling a charger is knowing what to trigger on. The normal charge scheme is to charge to a certain voltage at whatever amperage you can manage and then hold that voltage and taper the current off to some small value. I don't think you can really duplicate that. I suppose you could turn it off at some voltage and when the pack voltage drops (which it will almost immediately) turn it back on until it stops dropping below the threshold. You could trigger on Ah but I always put more in than I took out so that's problematic too. --Rick On 10/12/2014 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded? Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc? Thanks, Jerry Dycus ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
