Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 20 Nov 2023 at 10:14, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> Seems this was tried in France for awhile, and I think it's now all but
> gone.  (Cheap EV with Battery Lease)  

Correct. . From 2012 to 2019 Renault sold all their Zoes with leased 
batteries, except in Norway.  That made the car's purchase price roughly 
comparable to a similarly fitted ICEV Clio.

Actually they started EV battery leasing in early 2011 with the now-
forgotten Fluence ZE.

I don't recall the battery lease costs any more.  It was based on the number 
of km you expected to drive per month, with the option to shift to a 
different scheme if your driving habits changed.  My impression was that for 
low usage the cost was quite reasonable.

Renault wrote into the contract that if the battery capacity dropped below 
70% they would fix or replace it, no charge. That eliminated buyer worries 
about battery life and diminishing capacity, a significant factor when the 
car was introduced in 2012.  

It seems to have been successful because until competition ramped up the 
last few years, the Zoe was usually the best selling EV in Europe.

I prefer to own my EV and its battery, but a battery lease can have 
significant benefits for many people.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Seems this was tried in France for awhile, and I think it's now all but
gone.  (Cheap EV with Battery Lease)   Though I think one of the Chinese
brands; Nio (IIRC) was also doing this with great success in China.

On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 9:55 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> I keep thinking (and fearing) that the auto industry will start using the
> "cheap printer and expensive ink" model. In the early 1900's, Henry Ford
> observed, "If I owned the gas stations, I'd *give* the cars away."
>
> So what happens if an auto company begins offering cheap or free cars, but
> only as long as you rent their batteries, and charge at their charging
> stations?
>
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[Cor van de Water via EV]

That's why I enjoy Brother brand printers, of all manufacturers they charge
the least for their consumables.
All other manufacturers are under heavy assault of aftermarket products and
refill providers.
But I guess that a cheap car and battery rental is a viable business case
as has been shown, though not very successfull till date.
Cor

On Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:54 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> I keep thinking (and fearing) that the auto industry will start using the
> "cheap printer and expensive ink" model. In the early 1900's, Henry Ford
> observed, "If I owned the gas stations, I'd *give* the cars away."
>
> So what happens if an auto company begins offering cheap or free cars, but
> only as long as you rent their batteries, and charge at their charging
> stations?
>
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[Lee Hart via EV]

I keep thinking (and fearing) that the auto industry will start using the 
"cheap printer and expensive ink" model. In the early 1900's, Henry Ford 
observed, "If I owned the gas stations, I'd *give* the cars away."

So what happens if an auto company begins offering cheap or free cars, but only 
as long as you rent their batteries, and charge at their charging stations?

--
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--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[John Lussmyer via EV]

Umm, in what way is Tesla "slipping"?  Sales are still climbing - fast.
Yeah, they don't have a EV econobox out, and BYD does.  (also note that 
BYD lumps their Hybrid sales in with the EV sales - so it's hard to tell 
if their EV's are profitable yet.)
Since EV's are pretty much a huge self-propelled smart phone - whose 
software would you rather be using?  Chinese lowest-bidder-at-any-cost, 
or something written to work well. (Apple, Google, Tesla)


On 11/20/2023 9:28 AM, Mark Laity-Snyder via EV wrote:

  It is sad that Tesla has not lived up to their promises to have a $25K car 
available.  That would be the nails in the coffin for the ICEVs.  I guess they 
have decided that they would rather make  rather than kill ICEVs.
Not just a Model X slipping into the sea at a Florida boat launch recently
(look it up if you haven't read about it), but in worldwide sales.


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[Mark Laity-Snyder via EV]

 It is sad that Tesla has not lived up to their promises to have a $25K car 
available.  That would be the nails in the coffin for the ICEVs.  I guess they 
have decided that they would rather make  rather than kill ICEVs.
Not just a Model X slipping into the sea at a Florida boat launch recently 
(look it up if you haven't read about it), but in worldwide sales.

Even though BYD sells only buses in the US, it's just about caught up with 
Tesla worldwide.

BYD is gaining on Tesla probably because Tesla only offers large, relatively 
expensive EVs.  BYD has a wider model range, including the sharp-looking A-
segment Seagull - not available in Europe, but selling for about US$10k in 
China.

Full story:

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-byd-tesla-electric-car-ev-race-2023-11

Though I have yet to see (or at least notice) anything Chinese here other 
than a growing number of Dacia Springs, Chinese EV sales are reportedly 
growing rapidly elsewhere in the EU.  

In September the EU started looking into exactly how much the Chinese 
government is subsidizing those EVs. If they find significant "dumping," 
they can tack on tariffs to make up the price difference.

Meanwhile, Stellantis and Renault have come out swinging with big, ambitious 
plans to cut their EU EV manufacturing costs and introduce more price-
competitive EVs.  They're aiming for well under EUR25k, and possibly under 
EUR20k (around US$22k).  

The B-segment Citroen EC3, with 320km range, is expected to go for EUR23,300 
next year.  A reduced range version in 2025 might be as cheap as EUR19,900.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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