Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Wed Feb 02 21:58:43 PST 2022 somebody said:
>On Wed Feb 02 10:17:21 PST 2022 John Lussmyer said:
>
>>I detest rolling stops. Major reason for accidents. Any one who doesn't make 
>>a full stop every time they encounter a stop sign or right on red is a moron. 
>>Allowing drivers to select this option is criminal. Stopping should be a 
>>habit. Not a choice. Lawrence Rhodes
>
>So, you are saying that a very powerful computer that is specifically designed 
>to detect things that might cause a collision, is just as bad as the average 
>half-asleep, fiddling with their phone, human driver?
>
>Nope. A rolling stop is an option the update will take away. Why anyone would 
>program a rolling stop is beyond understanding. Lawrence Rhodes

You didn't answer the question, you just re-iterated that they shouldn't be 
allowed to be done by an advanced AI system with far better observation 
capabilities than a human.

Why shouldn't an AI be allowed to do them?


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Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[paul dove via EV]

 Results:  Stop sign violations accounted for about 70% of all crashes. 
Typically these crashes were angular collisions. Among crashes not involving 
stop violations, rear-end crashes were most common, accounting for about 12% of 
all crashes. Stop sign violation crashes were classified into several subtypes 
- driver stopped, driver did not stop, snow/wet/ice, and other/unknown. In 
about two-thirds of stop sign violation crashes, drivers said they had first 
come to a stop. In these cases, inability or failure to see approaching traffic 
often was cited as the cause of the crash. Drivers younger than 18 as well as 
drivers 65 and older were disproportionately found to be at fault in crashes at 
stop signs. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14733981/

   On Thursday, February 3, 2022, 09:27:29 AM CST, John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On Wed Feb 02 21:58:43 PST 2022 somebody said:
>On Wed Feb 02 10:17:21 PST 2022 John Lussmyer said:
>
>>I detest rolling stops. Major reason for accidents. Any one who doesn't make 
>>a full stop every time they encounter a stop sign or right on red is a moron. 
>>Allowing drivers to select this option is criminal. Stopping should be a 
>>habit. Not a choice. Lawrence Rhodes
>
>So, you are saying that a very powerful computer that is specifically designed 
>to detect things that might cause a collision, is just as bad as the average 
>half-asleep, fiddling with their phone, human driver?
>
>Nope. A rolling stop is an option the update will take away. Why anyone would 
>program a rolling stop is beyond understanding. Lawrence Rhodes

You didn't answer the question, you just re-iterated that they shouldn't be 
allowed to be done by an advanced AI system with far better observation 
capabilities than a human.

Why shouldn't an AI be allowed to do them?


--

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http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] Is the EVtradingpost dead?

[Mike Chancey via EV]

Yes, the EV Tradin' Post is gone.  I handed it off to Aaron Choate a number
of years ago and he kept it going awhile, then it got buried in spammers so
he retired it.  It really would take a lot of new code and vigilance to
survive in today's internet.

Mike Chancey
Webmaster EV Album

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Ed Thorpe via EV
Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2022 3:28 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Ed Thorpe 
Subject: [EVDL] Is the EVtradingpost dead?

A couple weeks ago I was checking on some EVs for sale on the EV trading
post, and had no problems with the site. Today the domain isn't resolving.
Did the domain expire or the website get taken down? Anyone have information
on this site?
-Ed
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Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Thu Feb 03 08:08:13 PST 2022 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
>Results:  Stop sign violations accounted for about 70% of all crashes. 
>Typically these crashes were angular collisions. Among crashes not involving 
>stop violations, rear-end crashes were most common, accounting for about 12% 
>of all crashes. Stop sign violation crashes were classified into several 
>subtypes - driver stopped, driver did not stop, snow/wet/ice, and 
>other/unknown. In about two-thirds of stop sign violation crashes, drivers 
>said they had first come to a stop. In these cases, inability or failure to 
>see approaching traffic often was cited as the cause of the crash. Drivers 
>younger than 18 as well as drivers 65 and older were disproportionately found 
>to be at fault in crashes at stop signs.
>
>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14733981/

So, you admit that those accidents are generally due to people not paying 
attention.  Which is not something that an AI would do.
So, it's likely that letting an AI do a rolling stop would save wear on the 
vehicle, save energy, and not increase the number of accidents.



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Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 3 Feb 2022 at 7:27, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> You didn't answer the question, you just re-iterated that they shouldn't be
> allowed to be done by an advanced AI system with far better observation
> capabilities than a human.
> 
> Why shouldn't an AI be allowed to do them?

Completely aside from the question of whether AI will ever actually be 
"intelligent":

1. I'm not an expert, but from what I've read, I don't agree that Tesla's 
autopilot has "far better observation capabilities than a human."  Maybe it 
could have, but Musk kneecapped it by ordering his engineers to use only 
visual sensors (and I think ultrasound).  Musk reportedly thinks that humans 
use only vision in driving, so that's enough for a car.  Really?  Besides, 
maybe Musk uses only his vision, but most of us use all of our senses in 
driving. At least 4 of them; 5 if you have a drink in the cupholder. :-)

2. Tesla is touting their new supercomputer for autopilot learning. How much 
do the cars depend on it for moment-to-moment decisions?  I haven't read all 
the articles on it, but none so far has even asked that question.  Mobile 
phone data isn't a "mission-critical" service with guaranteed speed and 
uptime. What happens when the car can't talk to the server for minutes, 
hours, days, or weeks at a stretch? 

3. As far as I know, Tesla is the only automaker encouraging their cars' 
drivers to turn driving over to the car entirely.  Officially, they say 
"don't rely on it," but that's effectively negated by what Musk says 
unofficially and by the names he gives the system.  "It's full self driving, 
but don't let the car drive itself, OK?"  Wink wink, nudge nudge.

4. I don't know of any other automaker expecting its customers to beta-test 
safety-critical self driving software - and with the chutzpah to make them 
pay a $10k surcharge for the privilege.

5. Who, in a nation full of angry, over-entitled, self-centered jerks, 
thought it was a good idea to add an "aggressive" mode to Teslas?  

6. Finally, are people on this list seriously arguing that an automatic 
system should be deliberately programmed to *actively* violate traffic law?  
Or even to give the driver that choice?

-

I don't know how many of y'all realize this, but outside of the EV 
community, informed and intelligent people make grim jokes about Tesla's 
autopilot failures. 

Between those failures and their legal responsibility failures, mark my 
words, Tesla is heading for a legal and fiscal cliff.  They'd better really 
watch their tails as they push into Europe.  The regulatory climate there is 
a lot less laissez-faire, and the culture less every-man-for-himself, than 
in the US. 

I know a lot of you don't agree, but I still think that Musk is past his use-
by date at Tesla.  The board should get him off Twitter, kick him upstairs 
to a well-paid emeritus advisory role, and turn the CEO job over to someone 
with a little human conscience, prudence, and responsibility.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[Michael Ross via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Some years ago when self-driving was just emerging, the engineers
implemented the exact vehicle code and made the car come to a full
stop, before the white line and await its turn.
What the practice provided on the streets was that the vehicle was too
polite, they had a large number of incidents where another vehicle
jumped the queue and went before their turn, because it seemed that
the self-driving vehicle was not ready to go at its turn, so they had
to make the vehicle more aggressive and start rolling in preparation
of its turn to indicate that it was ready to go, simulating the
behavior of human drivers and their expectations of other vehicles,
then the amount of queue jumpers went down to "normal" rude behavior
that we encounter from time to time.
I think the rolling (at low speed) through stop signs when no other
traffic is around is exactly that - mimicking behavior of other
drivers where safe and beneficial, with the added benefit of never
losing focus on safety. Check the crash statistics to see the
difference between machine driven vehicles and human driven vehicles,
I think it is already well above a 1:10 ratio in incidents that
machine is better than distracted human drivers. The whole point of
traffic law is to avoid loss, it is always a balance between traffic
throughput (loss of time) and loss of life and property, so traffic
laws are not even aiming for maximum safety, just reasonable safety
without excessive delays. Rolling through stops when no traffic is
present sounds exactly what *should* be encoded in law. Note that
exactly that is already the case for bicyclists in some states, for
exactly the reason of having acceptable safety without excessive
demands on riders to make a full stop and accelerate again and again,
wearing them out and delaying their journey without safety benefit.
Cor.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 3:14 PM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> On Thu Feb 03 08:08:13 PST 2022 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> >Results:  Stop sign violations accounted for about 70% of all crashes. 
> >Typically these crashes were angular collisions. Among crashes not involving 
> >stop violations, rear-end crashes were most common, accounting for about 12% 
> >of all crashes. Stop sign violation crashes were classified into several 
> >subtypes - driver stopped, driver did not stop, snow/wet/ice, and 
> >other/unknown. In about two-thirds of stop sign violation crashes, drivers 
> >said they had first come to a stop. In these cases, inability or failure to 
> >see approaching traffic often was cited as the cause of the crash. Drivers 
> >younger than 18 as well as drivers 65 and older were disproportionately 
> >found to be at fault in crashes at stop signs.
> >
> >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14733981/
>
> So, you admit that those accidents are generally due to people not paying 
> attention.  Which is not something that an AI would do.
> So, it's likely that letting an AI do a rolling stop would save wear on the 
> vehicle, save energy, and not increase the number of accidents.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Try my Sensible Email package!  
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

So, you are saying that a very powerful computer that is specifically designed 
to detect things that might cause a collision, is just as bad as the average 
half-asleep, fiddling with their phone, human driver?

It did not make the decision.  A human told it to do so. So now that option is 
being taken away.  Lawrence Rhodes...you don't like my answer...I don't like 
your question. 
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