Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
On Sat, Mar 04, 2006 at 02:34:17PM -0800, Marc Perkel wrote: As many of you know AOL is contemplating a pay to send email plan. So I'm protesting it by doing a DEFER on my lowest MX record server. The other server will accept AOL email, but the DEFER puts a line in AOL log files every time AOL tries to send email to one of my users. Of course [snip drivel] I never saw the day that the EFF ever had a clue on spam. And plenty of times when they've simply misrepresented a whole lot of facts to produce quite laughable opinions on the subject of spam. And I've seen more than one day when moveon.org has run badly managed enough mailing lists that they're indistinguishable from spam to our filters. Like the time they managed to email one of our role accounts - which is read by staffers based in Hong Kong - inviting us to participate in a rally / march outside the white house. Maybe they also intended to buy HKG-IAD tickets and reserve hotel acco for a dozen people.. I've already commented on this at http://www.circleid.com/posts/eff_on_goodmail_further_confusing_an_already_confused_issue/ Feel free to comment further there - and take this off exim-users. Even with that exim acl in there, it isnt any more on topic than the rest of your usual drivel. srs -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: On Sat, Mar 04, 2006 at 02:34:17PM -0800, Marc Perkel wrote: As many of you know AOL is contemplating a pay to send email plan. So I'm protesting it by doing a DEFER on my lowest MX record server. The other server will accept AOL email, but the DEFER puts a line in AOL log files every time AOL tries to send email to one of my users. Of course [snip drivel] I never saw the day that the EFF ever had a clue on spam. And plenty of times when they've simply misrepresented a whole lot of facts to produce quite laughable opinions on the subject of spam. I'm not going to argue the merits of the protest in this forum. I just provided the code for those who are interested in participating. I also contend that the charging of money for email is an inefective way to control spam. Especially when spammers who are making money would tend to be more able to pay fees. -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
Marc Perkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As many of you know AOL is contemplating a pay to send email plan. [...] .ifdef LOWEST_MX defermessage = WE PROTEST AOL PAY TO SEND EMAIL PLAN! hosts = *.aol.com .endif the pay is only for the mail received by AOL. and judging by the article quoted in your mail, i don't think they will 'discriminate' non-payers at all. my opinion is that these are their MXes, they are free to introduce whatever solutions they wish for when it comes to receiving email from third parties. i, too, think that the whole idea is bad, not just 'payed guarantee' (bonded sender sounds like a good idea for some), but paying for a 'trust' directly and only to a single company. one way or another, this sounds like a blatant attempt to make money by allowing spammers to reliably send spam under a fee. anyway, they won't listen. they're *that* kind of a commercial company, if they'd care about *this* kind of 'ethics', they wouldn't come up with this announcement in the first place. a DEFER text message won't do anything. and theoretically, if one tries to 'punish' AOL by denying incoming email from them, which is just an artificial imposition of their reasoning upon their users, they will just lose without gaining anything. i think that what we need is to get people to change their email provider, protest directed to a company only won't make anyone else acknowledge that. a person using AOL email isn't obligated to use it, if one acknowledges your cause, they will migrate from AOL. if one won't, there's little we can do. pgpaFRpXCW5Qz.pgp Description: PGP signature -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
Marc Perkel wrote: As many of you know AOL is contemplating a pay to send email plan. *trim* Let's be a bit more precise. - all 'free' mail has a cost to send or receive, somewhere, born by somebody, usually as part of an ISP service fee, or staff, student, organization membership costs. Or something. TANSTAAFL. I don't see anything wrong with AOL charging their *users* whatever they - and their user-community - are comfortable with. But that is apparently not the 'plan'. - from your citation: What is this all about? here's what the Electronic Frontier Foundation is saying about it. * Tell AOL To Drop Its Pay-To-Send Email Plan We're extremely troubled by AOL's plan to introduce a pay- to-send email system that will guarantee access to AOL customers' inboxes for senders who pay $0.0025 per mail to escape anti-spam filters. AOL users may, or may not, see an increase in 'legitimized' spam. IF [ any | enough] organizations choose to pay the fee. Might AOL then also charge the *users* another fee to have the now-legitimized spam once again filtered? There is plenty of historical precedent: Micro$oft selling AV and security tools, for example. Big as AOL is, they might be well-advised to research the tragedy of HMS Curacoa, 4200 tons of armor steel - which also got crosswise with something far larger as a result of a poor judgement call. The 'smtp community' will sort AOL in due course, and no more stop or slow down than RMS Queen Mary did. This time, nobody has to suffer. Progress, of sorts. Bill Hacker -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], W B Hacker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes AOL users may, or may not, see an increase in 'legitimized' spam. IF [ any | enough] organizations choose to pay the fee. Might AOL then also charge the *users* another fee to have the now-legitimized spam once again filtered? There's some useful information about what AOL are actually changing within their system in John Levine's blog http://weblog.johnlevine.com/Email/goodmail.html You'll notice a certain tension between what John thinks is going on compared with the EFF description, and so you'll need to make up your own mind how excited to get -- at least in the short term. I would observe in passing that EFF have not generally had a particularly mainstream position on dealing with spam http://www.eff.org/spam/position_on_junk_email.php since they have tended to concentrate on the rights of senders, especially those sending political speech, rather than -- as I suspect most here may do -- making the rights of recipients paramount. However, do make up your own mind :) - -- richard Richard Clayton Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin 11 Nov 1755 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBRAo4ppoAxkTY1oPiEQLZAQCfS1fEsbJwDE3yRWlx01+biWVdkIwAnjYx 8G0yr9GOqDjgbQHiC0hOFDI5 =L7Kx -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
I don't allways agree with EFFs position on things - especially spam. But the payment of money isn't a good way to distinguish real email from spam. It quashes free speech and allows spammers to pay to send you spam. I also tend to protest and kind of attempt to take what is essentially an open public worldwide network and turn it into a private corporate fascist controlled network. So my suggestion is a gentle way of expressing my concerns to AOL in their log files. -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Marc Perkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I don't allways agree with EFFs position on things - especially spam. But the payment of money isn't a good way to distinguish real email from spam. as it happens I agree [and I've published papers on why mechanisms like this fail], though there's a lot of people who believe in economic approaches... It quashes free speech and allows spammers to pay to send you spam. ... they usually argue that spammers can't afford to send their material but other legitimate people will. Still, that's not quite the issue here! although compared with most proposed schemes for pay for email it's quite expensive so the people who believe in the economics ought to be quite enthusiastic. I also tend to protest and kind of attempt to take what is essentially an open public worldwide network and turn it into a private corporate fascist controlled network. AOL are continuing to accept _your_ email (and mine, since my IP address is registered to send to them) in just the same way -- so I don't quite see how they're controlling the public worldwide network in any significant manner. So my suggestion is a gentle way of expressing my concerns to AOL in their log files. Then, for consistency and the proper impact, you should be arranging to do the same with Yahoo! and researching how to distinguish the clients of Habeas and Ironport's Bonded Sender programme (I believe MSN and Hotmail are signed up) ... and doubtless some other systems as well. - -- richard Richard Clayton Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin 11 Nov 1755 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBRApAqZoAxkTY1oPiEQL8xgCfdH9XyA2M1onc6L73/UhDvjn7o38AoIVO +NypzTNu0wppmKJwEv0v7pWA =X1ab -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
Marc Perkel wrote: I don't allways agree with EFFs position on things - especially spam. But the payment of money isn't a good way to distinguish real email from spam. The payment of money to the *recipeint* might be ;-) - but to skip-over spam checks? Isn't bribing a policeman a crime in most places? And for a purported policamn to *solicit* a bribe... well.. It quashes free speech Doubtful.. and allows spammers to pay to send you spam. Clearly. I also tend to protest and kind of attempt to take what is essentially an open public worldwide network and turn it into a private corporate fascist controlled network. Izzat a triple-oxymoron? 'X.400' is a shorter term, and it lives on in each of those environments. But X.400 has been under more threat from, and progressively lost more ground to, smtp than the reverse. There is even a smidge of merit in the AOL theme, if only the revenue was shaed with the recipient: Imagine the benefit if unsolicited snail-mail or unsolicited telemarketing had to pay a premium to pass your gate... So my suggestion is a gentle way of expressing my concerns to AOL in their log files. Not as gentle as the otherwise 'invisible' 4-minute delay I clamped on them an hour or so ago Bet it isn't even logged. Why stand out in traffic? ;-) Bill -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
Marc Perkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But the payment of money isn't a good way to distinguish real email from spam. It quashes free speech free speech is quashed because of what? i don't get under what premise you've had came to this conclusion. or is it a platitude? *snicker* free speech includes a right not to listen, if not interested. or am i missing something? I also tend to protest and kind of attempt to take what is essentially an open public worldwide network and turn it into a private corporate fascist controlled network. does it introduce any false positives not present in their spam filtering system before this whole idea was introduced? So my suggestion is a gentle way of expressing my concerns to AOL in their log files. #ifdef FLAME better yet, you could make these DEFER messages multiline, make them appear as banner(6) or just teergrube them. #endif /* FLAME */ i don't *like* this idea at all, i think that they're avoiding the real problem and not just misdirecting their efforts, but also trying to make a profit out of it. but so are you (except for that 'money' part), with these 'corporate fascist' and 'quashes free speech' comments. pgpOydEl2uWLS.pgp Description: PGP signature -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
Richard Clayton wrote: *trimmed* Then, for consistency and the proper impact, you should be arranging to do the same with Yahoo! and researching how to distinguish the clients of Habeas and Ironport's Bonded Sender programme (I believe MSN and Hotmail are signed up) ... and doubtless some other systems as well. - -- richard Richard Clayton Long since. Any SA 'negative' score was grepped, those I am definitely a spammmer, 'coz I paid for the privilege converted from negative-whatever to positive 100. 'Registered' spam is 'for-sure' spam. No uncertainty factor to deal with. Bill -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
Re: [exim] Protesting AOL pay to send email plan
On 04/03/06, Marc Perkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As many of you know AOL is contemplating a pay to send email plan. snip Do some proper research before blindly forwarding politically-motivated invective. When you can personally verify each of the claims in the EFF boilerplate email, then come back. Peter -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: +44 1296 768003 VoIP: sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] VoIP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FWD: **275*5048707000 VoipTalk: **473*5048707000 -- ## List details at http://www.exim.org/mailman/listinfo/exim-users ## Exim details at http://www.exim.org/ ## Please use the Wiki with this list - http://www.exim.org/eximwiki/
