[FairfieldLife] RE: NPD
I'd have to agree with Judy that Robin's little activities in the even littler burg of Fairfield Iowa hardly register as noteworthy in any grand scheme of things, especially as a subject for scholarly treatises. I was approached and interviewed by a number of journalists, masters students and the CBC for interviews about my cult experience when I first left WTS back in 1986-87. But these various people were more interested in the subject of cults than they were about TM or Robin. ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote: Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with the post of mine you're responding to, but you need to get your facts straight: Robin wasn't trying to take over the TM movement; rather, he wanted Maharishi's approval to make some reforms and additions/modifications to the TM teaching (including the TM-Sidhi techniques). Ann could tell you more about that; but what I understand from his own writings is that he felt Maharishi's knowledge wasn't being presented effectively at MIU. Robin was certain Maharishi would back him up (as he's explained here in some detail), but that didn't happen, and Robin had to get out of Dodge. I never made any objections to studying Robin's interactions with the TMO, BTW. But it doesn't seem to me that they'd be of more than mild interest even to cult scholars Don't know how much of the court transcripts would be that fascinating either. Again as I understand it, the lawsuits had to do primarily with Robin's claim that MIU's actions in excommunicating or otherwise sanctioning the students who became involved with his group, and prohibiting him and his group from proselytizing on campus, were detrimental to his business. Much more interesting than the legal wrangling, I should think, would be the content of the proselytizing and Robin's tactics in implementing it. Frankly, I don't think you've paid enough attention to what Robin (and Ann and a couple of others) wrote on FFL about those days to have a clear idea of what's worth studying and what isn't. I seriously doubt any academic theses will be written on the court transcripts. But my real objection, as I thought I'd made clear, was to the application of mental health diagnoses to Robin, as he was then and is now (but especially now), by folks who are eminently unqualified to do so. Buck wrote: The TM-Robin Carlsen court transcripts are proly someone's academic thesis in the future for modern example of someone by personality coming broadside to try to take over an existing group or movement. Historically sort of like Count Leon did with George Rapp and the experience of fragmentation in the Harmonists where you get the battle of character playing out in a spiritual group by personality. It is really interesting story that one can see in life and also learn to recognize as you go along. Seems very much part of any of our adaptation in doing groups and dealing with the aspect of charismatic leadership of whatever personality. Practically this is sort of like, how far do you let someone run on with their seeming mystical associations before you pull them up short? Is that even up to you? (Unless the person is interfering with your rights to live your life as you choose.) I might remind you that there's more than one FFL participant who thinks you need to be pulled up short. Like this guy who evidently is extremely clever showing up last week in Fairfield trying to figure things out and get a foothold. It's noteworthy in the field of study of mysticism and communal spiritual movements. What is reality and what is mental illness in the range of things? Engraved gold plates and angels? -Buck in the Dome That question is way premature given the very little you've told us about this guy and how recently this has come up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Buck wrote: Whatutalking about? Robin Carlsen is a very interesting chapter in TM. He and TM are going to be studied by historical and social-science scholars for a long time to come. Maybe, maybe not. This was 30 years or so ago now, and there has been hardly any evidence of any such studying of Robin in connection with TM so far. I guess that makes you and some others who went off with him part of TM that way too. That is okay. If nothing else the court transcripts will always be part of the study of TM. No need to get defensive. I am glad you turned up here on FFL to share your experience with it too. It is very interesting, -Buck What's most interesting, it seems to me, is the difference between what we know of Robin in his cult days, from Ann and a couple of others who were around him then, and what we know of Robin firsthand from his presence on FFL in the past couple of years. No study of Robin's psychopathology, such as it may have been
[FairfieldLife] RE: NPD
---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: NPD Heads-up. Seems there is a guy and a follower This is so funny, a guy and a follower. Doesn't sound like this guy is too charismatic if he has one lonely follower in his retinue. who showed up in town in the last few days with these kinds of traits. Tells a good story, really smart but incredibly manipulative and evidently abusive with the younger follower. Lot like that other guy that used to post here. I sent this new guy on to find the afternoon Fairfield illumined experience banana-gram group. I think they have the resources to deal with him safely and will appreciate him a lot. -Buck
[FairfieldLife] RE: NPD
First of all Buck, it is great that you care and have evidently made some detailed observations of the situation. I think your instincts are on target with reference to the unhealthy relationship between leader and follower. Unfortunately there is probably nothing to be done. All you can do is what you do when there is someone dear to you who is either a drug addict or an alcoholic - you let them know you know what is going on and give them an opening to use you in some way that could free them from their predicament if they so wish. Obviously the hanger on doesn't feel there is anything that is more desirable in their lives to pursue than this manipulative religious guy. He wants to be with the stronger guy, he has chosen to put up with whatever his mentor wants to throw at him. He is getting some 'reward' for being abused and pushed around. Until he no longer feels good under this treatment he will stick around. Frankly, from your description of this 'leader' guy, it appears he is under some delusion of knowing stuff others are not privy to. Therefore he is special and should be listened to. It is always the same, in one form or the other ; it is implied that 'if you follow me' you are special in some way and in contact with something, through me, that you would otherwise not have access to. It is tempting, heady and drug-like. I would like to meet this man, this prophet. I always enjoy seeing the trip these guys are on. I'm afraid I am a bit of a hard sell these days though. But you go ahead and see what you can learn Buck; human beings are infinitely varied and fascinating. ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: Awoelf, the leader seems is in to interpreting divine significations in things happening around him to make events and people seem extremely important to him and connect to larger things. He's an ultra religious guy. Has a lot of religious text in his head to draw on. The follower though is along for some kind of ride. I have run in to both around town now and had conversations letting them talk as I mostly asked questions and listened. This last weekend a clinical social worker was visiting town and ran in to these two around the square in Fairfield and talked with them a few times. The social worker by training and career clinical experience was appalled by what was publicly going on between the two. The leader being incredibly demeaning of the younger guy in front of other people, in front of public saying things extremely critical of the younger's dress, cleanliness and demeanor and then would do it in ways to get who ever was listening to him to agree and collaborate in the chastisement. The younger guy really was fine enough in dress, care and demeanor. The social worker separately ran in to the younger person later and asked why he stayed around the leader[?]. The younger answered saying that, 'you get used to it'. Being squashed and humiliated? I talked with the younger guy independently at a different time and got a little of his story. Doesn't hold a bachelor degree but some college level study. Has worked doing some copy editing and in libraries and liked that. Might like to go to seminary. Says going back to family as an option is too complex. Follower is about 10 years younger than the leader. The follower evidently is estranged from family back home and has been with the leader for a while going to Jerusalem, Europe and some US places as they travel. The social worker was from out of town and only here in Fairfield attending a folk dance weekend for fun. The social worker by professional career experience was especially concerned by what was seen and heard. The older guy is really clever manipulative. Awoelf, you evidently have had some experience with this. What would you tell the younger guy to do? There are resources that deal with this that he could turn to for extracting himself? It does not seem that he can just go back to family, friends or some place necessarily. Just wondering what you'd say to the follower. -Buck ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote: ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: NPD Heads-up. Seems there is a guy and a follower This is so funny, a guy and a follower. Doesn't sound like this guy is too charismatic if he has one lonely follower in his retinue. who showed up in town in the last few days with these kinds of traits. Tells a good story, really smart but incredibly manipulative and evidently abusive with the younger follower. Lot like that other guy that used to post here. I sent this new guy on to find the afternoon Fairfield illumined experience banana-gram group. I think they have the resources to deal with him safely and will appreciate him a lot. -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: NPD
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: NPD = narcissistic personality disorder ? [http://media.salon.com/2013/10/brosh_embed3.jpg] http://media.salon.com/2013/10/brosh_embed3.jpg http://media.salon.com/2013/10/brosh_embed3.jpg
[FairfieldLife] RE: NPD
NDP is far more complex than Barry's little cartoon implies. If it told even half the story Barry would qualify as Narcissist of the group. It also implies Barry has been damaged by those with NPD and is the reason he harps on it so much, indeed, seems terrified by the possibility someone might be trying their narcissistic ploys on him and by gum, he ain't gonna stand for it. No sirree, you asshole narcissists out there, don't mess with Baby Bawwy. ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: NPD = narcissistic personality disorder ? http://media.salon.com/2013/10/brosh_embed3.jpg http://media.salon.com/2013/10/brosh_embed3.jpg
[FairfieldLife] RE: NPD
NPD = narcissistic personality disorder ? How come he homed in on you? You looking lost and confused? ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: NPD Heads-up. Seems there is a guy and a follower who showed up in town in the last few days with these kinds of traits. Tells a good story, really smart but incredibly manipulative and evidently abusive with the younger follower. Lot like that other guy that used to post here. I sent this new guy on to find the afternoon Fairfield illumined experience banana-gram group. I think they have the resources to deal with him safely and will appreciate him a lot. -Buck
[FairfieldLife] RE: NPD
Buck wrote: NPD Heads-up. Seems there is a guy and a follower who showed up in town in the last few days with these kinds of traits. Tells a good story, really smart but incredibly manipulative and evidently abusive with the younger follower. Lot like that other guy that used to post here. Are you referring to Robin? Because he didn't have narcissistic personality disorder. That was a story Barry made up and kept pushing because he was jealous of the attention Robin got and the fact that a lot of folks liked him. Remember that Barry insists Maharishi had NPD. As far as Barry is concerned, anyone who claims to be enlightened (or to have been enlightened--although it took Barry awhile to recognize that Robin was very clear that he was no longer enlightened) has NPD (and is not or was not enlightened). Ironically, if anyone here has NPD, it would be Barry. I sent this new guy on to find the afternoon Fairfield illumined experience banana-gram group. I think they have the resources to deal with him safely and will appreciate him a lot. -Buck
[FairfieldLife] RE: NPD
---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: NPD Heads-up. Seems there is a guy and a follower who showed up in town in the last few days with these kinds of traits. Tells a good story, really smart but incredibly manipulative and evidently abusive with the younger follower. Lot like that other guy that used to post here. I sent this new guy on to find the afternoon Fairfield illumined experience banana-gram group. I think they have the resources to deal with him safely and will appreciate him a lot. I would think FF would be used to all sorts of crazy pseudo gurus making their way around the town square. Probably a good portion of residents there figured themselves some sort of teacher or capable of some special ability like speaking to animals, channeling angels or otherwise having their enlightened fingers on the pulse of what's-happenin'-now. Just one more of these dudes hitching his cow pony to the tie-up rail in front of Revelations surely is not cause for concern. Of course, a rousing game of Bananagrams always did separate the men from the boys (or the avatars from the plebs). Now on the subject of NPD and Robin I think this subject has been bandied about long enough. Neither you nor Barry has the beginnings of an inkling of what makes that man tick and most of us here would appreciate it if you would leave the negative and inappropriate labels where they belong - in the textbooks or in the hands of those who might have a clue. -Buck
