[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
Hey Ann, I just now read your response here to my comment. Apologies I didn't see it before. (Sometimes I just plain old miss responses in discussion board formats. If I haven't read here in awhile I'll search my name to see if something has come up that I might want to address...thus, I just found the response.) Very well stated - your response. Part of it brought to mind restorative justice which folks and/or I have probably mentioned here before. But, like you stated, some persons don't seem to have the ability to feel empathy/hurt when they have harmed another and thus will never be able to own up. That's been a hard lesson to learn and I don't know if I've fully learned it. I battle cynicism more than I prefer these days; but I figure it's part of my current personal life curriculum and at some point I'll have a more healthy (as opposed to unhealthy) cynicism. At least I hope so. It's a funky up and down at this point. Thanks again for the response and for the kind words. ~Carol :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann awoelflebater@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Carol jchwelch@ wrote: I partly agree Ann. Hi Carol, I partly agree with what I said also! Nothing is ever as cut and dried as how I presented it. There will always be individual circumstances that make situations very complex and very individual. But basically, I think I believe what I wrote but know that there are exceptions to my points, there would have to be - it is life. The point where I disagree is when power differentials are at play and if the person holding the position of power ab-uses their position of trust to their advantage. This of course happens in other areas besides sexual. I believe certain individuals in positions of power can abuse that privilege of having power. But power is granted to people by others. There is no inherent power that just emerges that automatically makes one revered as a great financier, a world class artist, a wise sage or a sexy rock star. In all cases, these individuals must first present as such and certain people will gravitate to them and in so doing they often give away their own authority or power to these perceived 'greater beings', usually to gain something in return. Sometimes it is in the form of allowing the powerful one to tell you how to live your life. Sometimes it is thinking by somehow adhering oneself to the perceived 'greater human' (either in the form of physical intimacy or simply the intimacy of being as close to them as possible) that one will receive a gift, a blessing, some transfer of that power or it could simply be that it feels good. But I still assert that you have to be willing to give away a certain degree of your autonomy as a human to do this. When you give something away you can also open yourself up to something ultimately unwanted or not counted on. What makes it worse is when any harms that are exacted because of that abuse of trust are then denied or swept under the rug or minimized. For sure, and it is extra hurtful and a sign of the cowardice of the one attempting to hide what they have done. It is doubly despicable in my opinion. My rule: if you're going to do something you know is wrong or you think you may get caught out on then have the gumption to be ready to own up to it. If you've got it in you to violate or trespass against someone then you need to find it within yourself to own it. Yes, the adult-of-reasonable-sound-mind victim of such abuse of trust has to ultimately accept their responsibility for their choices, even those made under undue influence or because of indoctrination. How much is the victim responsible for and how much is the person in power responsible for? Can it even be measured? Measuring may not be useful - bottom line: it happened. Now comes the moment when both sides need to decide what to do with that. The violated needs to think about themselves first, they can not be responsible for the other person/the abuser. The violator needs to look at what would allow them to do what they did and they DO have some responsibility to the violated, to at least, in the most ideal scenario, admit, in some way, their sense of what they did. I think it is a fundamental part of the healing process for the transgressor - to feel vulnerable, wounded, appalled, horrified and to let those feelings be known to the abused. How often this happens is not often enough. But if the abuser is to ever be free from what they did they must feel, somehow and in some way, cut to the core. But often what it is that is within someone capable of great tyranny that is the very thing that disallows this sort of feeling of vulnerability or hurt as a result of having profoundly injured someone emotionally or otherwise. Sociopathy is one word for it. I'm not condoning a victim mentality,
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Carol jchwelch@... wrote: I partly agree Ann. Hi Carol, I partly agree with what I said also! Nothing is ever as cut and dried as how I presented it. There will always be individual circumstances that make situations very complex and very individual. But basically, I think I believe what I wrote but know that there are exceptions to my points, there would have to be - it is life. The point where I disagree is when power differentials are at play and if the person holding the position of power ab-uses their position of trust to their advantage. This of course happens in other areas besides sexual. I believe certain individuals in positions of power can abuse that privilege of having power. But power is granted to people by others. There is no inherent power that just emerges that automatically makes one revered as a great financier, a world class artist, a wise sage or a sexy rock star. In all cases, these individuals must first present as such and certain people will gravitate to them and in so doing they often give away their own authority or power to these perceived 'greater beings', usually to gain something in return. Sometimes it is in the form of allowing the powerful one to tell you how to live your life. Sometimes it is thinking by somehow adhering oneself to the perceived 'greater human' (either in the form of physical intimacy or simply the intimacy of being as close to them as possible) that one will receive a gift, a blessing, some transfer of that power or it could simply be that it feels good. But I still assert that you have to be willing to give away a certain degree of your autonomy as a human to do this. When you give something away you can also open yourself up to something ultimately unwanted or not counted on. What makes it worse is when any harms that are exacted because of that abuse of trust are then denied or swept under the rug or minimized. For sure, and it is extra hurtful and a sign of the cowardice of the one attempting to hide what they have done. It is doubly despicable in my opinion. My rule: if you're going to do something you know is wrong or you think you may get caught out on then have the gumption to be ready to own up to it. If you've got it in you to violate or trespass against someone then you need to find it within yourself to own it. Yes, the adult-of-reasonable-sound-mind victim of such abuse of trust has to ultimately accept their responsibility for their choices, even those made under undue influence or because of indoctrination. How much is the victim responsible for and how much is the person in power responsible for? Can it even be measured? Measuring may not be useful - bottom line: it happened. Now comes the moment when both sides need to decide what to do with that. The violated needs to think about themselves first, they can not be responsible for the other person/the abuser. The violator needs to look at what would allow them to do what they did and they DO have some responsibility to the violated, to at least, in the most ideal scenario, admit, in some way, their sense of what they did. I think it is a fundamental part of the healing process for the transgressor - to feel vulnerable, wounded, appalled, horrified and to let those feelings be known to the abused. How often this happens is not often enough. But if the abuser is to ever be free from what they did they must feel, somehow and in some way, cut to the core. But often what it is that is within someone capable of great tyranny that is the very thing that disallows this sort of feeling of vulnerability or hurt as a result of having profoundly injured someone emotionally or otherwise. Sociopathy is one word for it. I'm not condoning a victim mentality, but neither do I think victim is a dirty word. (Not saying anyone here thinks that.) I have been a victim (as I think most folks have sometime in their lives) and I have been an abuser. I'm not proud of either. If I can acknowledge both and admit it, I'm healthier for it. And hopefully have learned something in the process. Yes, the fallibility of the human race is legendary. The woundedness of so many could give rise to great beauty and but often it results in smallness and hurt. Victims are those wounded but victim could be another word for hero if one is big and if one is brave. I think you are probably one of those heroes. * --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann awoelflebater@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on.
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. --- Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: Given the behavior of leaders of the Movement through the years, it is legitimate to ask questions when behavior begins to manifest. It has been this way with spiritual movements for decades. People begin to misbehave and their disciples refuse to believe it, and the gurus and their chief sycophants deny it. Happened with Muktananda, Amrit Desai, Kriyananda - when I met J. Donald Walters, I would never have thought of him as a sexual user, but damned if he didn't turn out to be so - that's why he fled to Italy and stayed there till he died. Hagelin is one of the main guys the TMO and Lynch use to promote TM to whomever they think will bite - if he has mis-used his position as a faculty member to prey on his female students, the truth needs to be known. Since Edg had mentioned it, I wondered what the facts are. All legitimate questions and inquiry. The only problem is that some people who want to believe TM and its leaders are pure as the driven snow can't stand the light of truth to be shined on TM and its honchos. Hagelin's behavior if true needs to be made public so the people Hagelin pitches TM and his nonsense physics theories to know how credible he is - after all, TM supposedly makes all things better - and that should include behavior for those in positions of leadership. From: feste37 feste37@... Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:23 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion âââ‰â¬Å John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer What a pathetic post. Peddling old gossip, spreading rumors, denouncing others for alleged immorality. If you can't do better than this, Duveyoung, I suggest you STFU. --- Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote: I know only from gossip, but the gossip was a constant patter of tidbits. I saw him at dinner ONCE with a married lady, but that could have been innocent...yeah, right, sure.. Small town with only about three restaurants to get fancy dancy and of course he was seen around town a lot. I, with four kids at MSAE had all kinds of pot lucks etc. to hob nob enough to catch the gossip. Of course, EVEN ONCE, would be enough for my Lutheranism patterns amplified by my TM shame-on-you patterns to glom onto and bookmark the anecdotes. Same deal with Bevan, and I personally saw Larry Domesh indulging in lust sitting a mere 20 feet from Maharishi as he lectured to a private group! Yup, sex is a powerful mind twister, and, hey, the movement never gave us help-one to meet those challenges, so it's not like we can throw the book at these guys for moral-criminality, but yeah, I do. Note: The Karina Hotel fire was caused by a guy who started his girl friend's room on fire due to her cheating on him. Careful out there on the long rounding courses, kiddies, people be destressing! Edg --- Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: I have heard from time to time about Hagelin's womanizing but nothing very specific - how do you know all this stuff or has it just been kind of circulating around and not specific? From: Duveyoung no_re...@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:47 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion âââ‰â¬Å John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer --- Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: It takes two to tangle. You seem to imply that he was dragging them to the cave with a stone club in hand. Looks like TM didn't do any good to those women either. Maybe we can assign 50% of the blame on the married women, cuz, hey, free will and all that, but. nope. The equation changes when one of the partners has so much to offer to the (spiritually, financially, socially) impoverished other. He took advantage. He leveraged. He must be held to the same standard we held Maharishi about his sexcapades. Hagelin never not once ever never once ever said: Hey, babe, nice just meeting you, a minion, and me, a royal scion, and I know you're married, and it's a sin to fuck me, but, hey, let's just put all that aside and not dwell on the
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@... wrote: These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. You mistook my intent in saying what I said. Of course there is an element of groupie behavior in women falling onto their backs for people in positions of power or celebrity. That certainly happens. But there is ALSO behavior in which the people IN these positions of power or celebrity ABUSE their positions, and make use of them to get their rocks off with these gullible and stupid women. The TM organization was rife with this kind of abuse of position. In Europe I saw dozens of guys on International Staff who specialized in seducing the course participants, all while claim- ing to be celibate themselves. They would come on to some naive TMer or TM teacher and say things like I know that I should be celibate, but I'm just SO attracted to you. Then they'd fuck them a few times and forget them, and run the same number on someone else the next month, or the next week. When called on this behavior, many of them would claim not to even be able to remember having done the same thing the week or month before. It was *accepted* behavior, and as we all know now, modeled on the mindset of their teacher Maharishi, who did exactly the same thing. There IS such a thing as a power differential in real life. Like the one that bosses have over their secre- taries when they badger them into having sex with them. Like the one that therapists have with their vulnerable patients. Like the one that teachers in schools have with their students. Abuse these levels of trust and responsibility in those organizations and you'll get your ass fired or lose your license or go to prison. But when it happens in spiritual organizations, this same abuse of inherent power differentials and abuse of trust is largely ignored, and thus quietly sanctioned. People see it and then look the other way, to avoid dealing with the cognitive dissonance of people they assumed to be trustworthy proving themselves less than trustworthy. They pretend it never happened, because hypocrisy is easier to live with than the knowledge that their assumptions about these people in power are and have always been false. And worse, if someone dares to cry, The Emperor has no clothes, and in fact is waving his dick at every woman in town the way Edg just did, the True Believers gang up on him and try to make *him* the Bad Guy. I think it sucks. I lived with such hypocrisy in the Rama trip, and will never do so again. I saw him fuck his way through dozens of women, taking advantage of their naivete and their adoration. I saw him ruin some of these women's lives, get them pregnant and then demand that they get abortions, and then dump them as soon as he was finished with them. I knew many of these women personally, and provided a shoulder for them to cry on after being made to feel like a Kleenex that he'd jacked off into. That's WRONG. That an ABUSE OF TRUST. That's inexcusable. Trying to excuse it by saying that these women are/were adults and thus knew what they were doing just doesn't cut it. The incredible sway that spiritual teachers have over their students is never to be forgotten. Many of these women considered Rama almost as a God, and he encouraged them to think that way. Many of the TM women probably had their own reasons for bedding Hagelin (to get close to someone who was close with Maharishi, and thus possibly pick up some darshan cooties) or Maharishi himself (*direct* darshan cooties). But it was still the teachers or the people in power who took advantage of these women's naivete and their innocence to fuck them and then throw them away. Do NOT try to make me a party in condoning this kind of behavior in a spiritual setting, or in any other. I once got fired from a job for counseling a woman who had been the victim of sexual abuse by the CFO of the company what to do to protect herself. He was a serial abuser, and *everyone* in the company knew it and kept quiet about it. I gave her a tape recorder and told her to record his next demands to Stay late and work (meaning Stay and suck my cock), and she did it. The CFO got fired, the resulting lawsuit cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I got fired for having suggested it. I considered my actions a success. Power -- real or only perceived -- comes with RESPONSIBILITY. You just don't abuse that responsi- bility, and abuse those you're
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
--- Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. --- turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: You mistook my intent in saying what I said. Of course there is an element of groupie behavior in women falling onto their backs for people in positions of power or celebrity. That certainly happens. But there is ALSO behavior in which the people IN these positions of power or celebrity ABUSE their positions, and make use of them to get their rocks off with these gullible and stupid women. The TM organization was rife with this kind of abuse of position. In Europe I saw dozens of guys on International Staff who specialized in seducing the course participants, all while claim- ing to be celibate themselves. They would come on to some naive TMer or TM teacher and say things like I know that I should be celibate, but I'm just SO attracted to you. Then they'd fuck them a few times and forget them, and run the same number on someone else the next month, or the next week. When called on this behavior, many of them would claim not to even be able to remember having done the same thing the week or month before. It was *accepted* behavior, and as we all know now, modeled on the mindset of their teacher Maharishi, who did exactly the same thing. There IS such a thing as a power differential in real life. Like the one that bosses have over their secre- taries when they badger them into having sex with them. Like the one that therapists have with their vulnerable patients. Like the one that teachers in schools have with their students. Abuse these levels of trust and responsibility in those organizations and you'll get your ass fired or lose your license or go to prison. But when it happens in spiritual organizations, this same abuse of inherent power differentials and abuse of trust is largely ignored, and thus quietly sanctioned. People see it and then look the other way, to avoid dealing with the cognitive dissonance of people they assumed to be trustworthy proving themselves less than trustworthy. They pretend it never happened, because hypocrisy is easier to live with than the knowledge that their assumptions about these people in power are and have always been false. And worse, if someone dares to cry, The Emperor has no clothes, and in fact is waving his dick at every woman in town the way Edg just did, the True Believers gang up on him and try to make *him* the Bad Guy. I think it sucks. I lived with such hypocrisy in the Rama trip, and will never do so again. I saw him fuck his way through dozens of women, taking advantage of their naivete and their adoration. I saw him ruin some of these women's lives, get them pregnant and then demand that they get abortions, and then dump them as soon as he was finished with them. I knew many of these women personally, and provided a shoulder for them to cry on after being made to feel like a Kleenex that he'd jacked off into. That's WRONG. That an ABUSE OF TRUST. That's inexcusable. Trying to excuse it by saying that these women are/were adults and thus knew what they were doing just doesn't cut it. The incredible sway that spiritual teachers have over their students is never to be forgotten. Many of these women considered Rama almost as a God, and he encouraged them to think that way. Many of the TM women probably had their own reasons for bedding Hagelin (to get close to someone who was close with Maharishi, and thus possibly pick up some darshan cooties) or Maharishi himself (*direct* darshan cooties). But it was still the teachers or the people in power who took advantage of these women's naivete and their innocence to fuck them and then throw them away. Do NOT try to make me a party in condoning this kind of behavior in a spiritual setting, or in any other. I once got fired from a job for counseling a woman who had been the victim of sexual abuse by the CFO of the company what to do to protect herself. He was a serial abuser, and *everyone* in the company knew it and kept quiet about it. I gave her a tape recorder and told her to record his next demands to Stay late and work (meaning Stay and suck my cock), and she did it. The CFO got fired, the resulting lawsuit cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I got fired for having suggested it. I considered my actions a success. Power -- real or only
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@... wrote: These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. I'd have to agree with most of what you write her Jason. I don't actually think it's anyone's business who someone has an affair with, has oral sex with, has a crush on, pursues sexually or otherwise what they do in their private time. If someone high up in the TM movement is a serial 'lover' the only reason it seems to be a big deal here is because some people on this forum seem to think that such behaviour is not possible or probable of someone with a higher state of consciousness. Of course, this is balderdash. Certain activities are not appropriate or perhaps what I might term 'moral' or 'ethical' but to view the equivalent of a CEO in a corporation incapable of adultery or multiple affairs is just plain silly. It is just that because this 'CEO' is part of a 'spiritual' movement it is deemed extra offensive or, even sillier, points to the fact in some people's estimation that the whole practice of TM is invalid. And as far as 'preying' on poor women, the alleged transgressions of Hagelin, unless he bound, drugged and gagged them, were simply mutual consent relationships. I don't buy any of this poor victim stuff for women (or men) who go into a sexual situation with another person as anything other than a personal choice. If that ended up meaning their spouse and family hated them as a result then - guess what- too bad. These are adults who know how it all works. If you're married and you choose to fuck someone else it is going to create havoc in your life. Period. Deal with it, you'll have to in some form or other. --- Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: Given the behavior of leaders of the Movement through the years, it is legitimate to ask questions when behavior begins to manifest. It has been this way with spiritual movements for decades. People begin to misbehave and their disciples refuse to believe it, and the gurus and their chief sycophants deny it. Happened with Muktananda, Amrit Desai, Kriyananda - when I met J. Donald Walters, I would never have thought of him as a sexual user, but damned if he didn't turn out to be so - that's why he fled to Italy and stayed there till he died. Hagelin is one of the main guys the TMO and Lynch use to promote TM to whomever they think will bite - if he has mis-used his position as a faculty member to prey on his female students, the truth needs to be known. Since Edg had mentioned it, I wondered what the facts are. All legitimate questions and inquiry. The only problem is that some people who want to believe TM and its leaders are pure as the driven snow can't stand the light of truth to be shined on TM and its honchos. Hagelin's behavior if true needs to be made public so the people Hagelin pitches TM and his nonsense physics theories to know how credible he is - after all, TM supposedly makes all things better - and that should include behavior for those in positions of leadership. From: feste37 feste37@ Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:23 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion âââ‰â¬Å John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer What a pathetic post. Peddling old gossip, spreading rumors, denouncing others for alleged immorality. If you can't do better than this, Duveyoung, I suggest you STFU. --- Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote: I know only from gossip, but the gossip was a constant patter of tidbits. I saw him at dinner ONCE with a married lady, but that could have been innocent...yeah, right, sure.. Small town with only about three restaurants to get fancy dancy and of course he was seen around town a lot. I, with four kids at MSAE had all kinds of pot lucks etc. to hob nob enough to catch the gossip. Of course, EVEN ONCE, would be enough for my Lutheranism patterns amplified by my TM shame-on-you patterns to glom onto and bookmark the anecdotes. Same deal with Bevan, and I personally saw Larry Domesh indulging in lust sitting a mere 20 feet from Maharishi as he lectured to a private group! Yup, sex is a powerful mind twister, and, hey, the movement never gave us help-one to meet those challenges, so it's not like we can
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. You mistook my intent in saying what I said. Of course there is an element of groupie behavior in women falling onto their backs for people in positions of power or celebrity. That certainly happens. But there is ALSO behavior in which the people IN these positions of power or celebrity ABUSE their positions, and make use of them to get their rocks off with these gullible and stupid women. The TM organization was rife with this kind of abuse of position. In Europe I saw dozens of guys on International Staff who specialized in seducing the course participants, all while claim- ing to be celibate themselves. They would come on to some naive TMer or TM teacher and say things like I know that I should be celibate, but I'm just SO attracted to you. Then they'd fuck them a few times and forget them, and run the same number on someone else the next month, or the next week. When called on this behavior, many of them would claim not to even be able to remember having done the same thing the week or month before. It was *accepted* behavior, and as we all know now, modeled on the mindset of their teacher Maharishi, who did exactly the same thing. There IS such a thing as a power differential in real life. Like the one that bosses have over their secre- taries when they badger them into having sex with them. Like the one that therapists have with their vulnerable patients. Like the one that teachers in schools have with their students. Abuse these levels of trust and responsibility in those organizations and you'll get your ass fired or lose your license or go to prison. But when it happens in spiritual organizations, this same abuse of inherent power differentials and abuse of trust is largely ignored, and thus quietly sanctioned. People see it and then look the other way, to avoid dealing with the cognitive dissonance of people they assumed to be trustworthy proving themselves less than trustworthy. They pretend it never happened, because hypocrisy is easier to live with than the knowledge that their assumptions about these people in power are and have always been false. And worse, if someone dares to cry, The Emperor has no clothes, and in fact is waving his dick at every woman in town the way Edg just did, the True Believers gang up on him and try to make *him* the Bad Guy. I think it sucks. I lived with such hypocrisy in the Rama trip, and will never do so again. I saw him fuck his way through dozens of women, taking advantage of their naivete and their adoration. I saw him ruin some of these women's lives, get them pregnant and then demand that they get abortions, and then dump them as soon as he was finished with them. I knew many of these women personally, and provided a shoulder for them to cry on after being made to feel like a Kleenex that he'd jacked off into. That's WRONG. That an ABUSE OF TRUST. That's inexcusable. Trying to excuse it by saying that these women are/were adults and thus knew what they were doing just doesn't cut it. The incredible sway that spiritual teachers have over their students is never to be forgotten. Many of these women considered Rama almost as a God, and he encouraged them to think that way. Many of the TM women probably had their own reasons for bedding Hagelin (to get close to someone who was close with Maharishi, and thus possibly pick up some darshan cooties) or Maharishi himself (*direct* darshan cooties). But it was still the teachers or the people in power who took advantage of these women's naivete and their innocence to fuck them and then throw them away. Do NOT try to make me a party in condoning this kind of behavior in a spiritual setting, or in any other. I once got fired from a job for counseling a woman who had been the victim of sexual abuse by the CFO of the company what to do to protect herself. He was a serial abuser, and *everyone* in the company knew it and kept quiet about it. I gave her a tape recorder and told her to record his next demands to Stay late and work (meaning Stay and suck my cock), and she did it. The CFO got fired, the resulting lawsuit cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I got fired for having suggested it. I considered my actions a success. Power --
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. I'd have to agree with most of what you write her Jason. I don't actually think it's anyone's business who someone has an affair with... Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't Edg saying he has evidence that a married MUM faculty had sexual relations with a student? That's probably against the rules at MUM - I don't know. My point was, is FFL the best place to slander your own teacher? What about the individuals accused? Don't they get to post their defense in rebuttal? Shouldn't they at least get to know who is doing the accusing? Go figure. has oral sex with, has a crush on, pursues sexually or otherwise what they do in their private time. If someone high up in the TM movement is a serial 'lover' the only reason it seems to be a big deal here is because some people on this forum seem to think that such behaviour is not possible or probable of someone with a higher state of consciousness. Of course, this is balderdash. Certain activities are not appropriate or perhaps what I might term 'moral' or 'ethical' but to view the equivalent of a CEO in a corporation incapable of adultery or multiple affairs is just plain silly. It is just that because this 'CEO' is part of a 'spiritual' movement it is deemed extra offensive or, even sillier, points to the fact in some people's estimation that the whole practice of TM is invalid. And as far as 'preying' on poor women, the alleged transgressions of Hagelin, unless he bound, drugged and gagged them, were simply mutual consent relationships. I don't buy any of this poor victim stuff for women (or men) who go into a sexual situation with another person as anything other than a personal choice. If that ended up meaning their spouse and family hated them as a result then - guess what- too bad. These are adults who know how it all works. If you're married and you choose to fuck someone else it is going to create havoc in your life. Period. Deal with it, you'll have to in some form or other. --- Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: Given the behavior of leaders of the Movement through the years, it is legitimate to ask questions when behavior begins to manifest. It has been this way with spiritual movements for decades. People begin to misbehave and their disciples refuse to believe it, and the gurus and their chief sycophants deny it. Happened with Muktananda, Amrit Desai, Kriyananda - when I met J. Donald Walters, I would never have thought of him as a sexual user, but damned if he didn't turn out to be so - that's why he fled to Italy and stayed there till he died. Hagelin is one of the main guys the TMO and Lynch use to promote TM to whomever they think will bite - if he has mis-used his position as a faculty member to prey on his female students, the truth needs to be known. Since Edg had mentioned it, I wondered what the facts are. All legitimate questions and inquiry. The only problem is that some people who want to believe TM and its leaders are pure as the driven snow can't stand the light of truth to be shined on TM and its honchos. Hagelin's behavior if true needs to be made public so the people Hagelin pitches TM and his nonsense physics theories to know how credible he is - after all, TM supposedly makes all things better - and that should include behavior for those in positions of leadership. From: feste37 feste37@ Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:23 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion âââ‰â¬Å John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer What a pathetic post. Peddling old gossip, spreading rumors, denouncing others for alleged immorality. If you can't do better than this, Duveyoung, I suggest you STFU. --- Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote: I know only from gossip, but the gossip was a constant patter of tidbits. I saw him at dinner ONCE with a married lady, but that could have been innocent...yeah, right, sure.. Small town with only about three restaurants to get fancy dancy and of course he was seen around town a lot. I, with four kids at MSAE had all kinds of pot lucks etc. to hob nob enough to catch the gossip. Of course,
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@... wrote: --- Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. --- turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: You mistook my intent in saying what I said. Of course there is an element of groupie behavior in women falling onto their backs for people in positions of power or celebrity. That certainly happens. But there is ALSO behavior in which the people IN these positions of power or celebrity ABUSE their positions, and make use of them to get their rocks off with these gullible and stupid women. The TM organization was rife with this kind of abuse of position. In Europe I saw dozens of guys on International Staff who specialized in seducing the course participants, all while claim- ing to be celibate themselves. They would come on to some naive TMer or TM teacher and say things like I know that I should be celibate, but I'm just SO attracted to you. Then they'd fuck them a few times and forget them, and run the same number on someone else the next month, or the next week. When called on this behavior, many of them would claim not to even be able to remember having done the same thing the week or month before. It was *accepted* behavior, and as we all know now, modeled on the mindset of their teacher Maharishi, who did exactly the same thing. There IS such a thing as a power differential in real life. Like the one that bosses have over their secre- taries when they badger them into having sex with them. Like the one that therapists have with their vulnerable patients. Like the one that teachers in schools have with their students. Abuse these levels of trust and responsibility in those organizations and you'll get your ass fired or lose your license or go to prison. But when it happens in spiritual organizations, this same abuse of inherent power differentials and abuse of trust is largely ignored, and thus quietly sanctioned. People see it and then look the other way, to avoid dealing with the cognitive dissonance of people they assumed to be trustworthy proving themselves less than trustworthy. They pretend it never happened, because hypocrisy is easier to live with than the knowledge that their assumptions about these people in power are and have always been false. And worse, if someone dares to cry, The Emperor has no clothes, and in fact is waving his dick at every woman in town the way Edg just did, the True Believers gang up on him and try to make *him* the Bad Guy. I think it sucks. I lived with such hypocrisy in the Rama trip, and will never do so again. I saw him fuck his way through dozens of women, taking advantage of their naivete and their adoration. I saw him ruin some of these women's lives, get them pregnant and then demand that they get abortions, and then dump them as soon as he was finished with them. I knew many of these women personally, and provided a shoulder for them to cry on after being made to feel like a Kleenex that he'd jacked off into. That's WRONG. That an ABUSE OF TRUST. That's inexcusable. Trying to excuse it by saying that these women are/were adults and thus knew what they were doing just doesn't cut it. The incredible sway that spiritual teachers have over their students is never to be forgotten. Many of these women considered Rama almost as a God, and he encouraged them to think that way. Many of the TM women probably had their own reasons for bedding Hagelin (to get close to someone who was close with Maharishi, and thus possibly pick up some darshan cooties) or Maharishi himself (*direct* darshan cooties). But it was still the teachers or the people in power who took advantage of these women's naivete and their innocence to fuck them and then throw them away. Do NOT try to make me a party in condoning this kind of behavior in a spiritual setting, or in any other. I once got fired from a job for counseling a woman who had been the victim of sexual abuse by the CFO of the company what to do to protect herself. He was a serial abuser, and *everyone* in the company knew it and kept quiet about it. I gave her a tape recorder and told her to record his next demands to Stay late and work (meaning Stay and suck my cock), and she did it. The CFO got fired, the resulting
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
Excellent post Barry. Yet, I too see your hypocrisy on this board. No, you don't sexually abuse others, but you point out their faults and name call and deem some of us unworthy to communicate with and (at least in may case) have made false accusations. Instead of directly addressing those you deem below you, you speak of them in the third person, if you choose to acknowledge their existence at all. * --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. You mistook my intent in saying what I said. Of course there is an element of groupie behavior in women falling onto their backs for people in positions of power or celebrity. That certainly happens. But there is ALSO behavior in which the people IN these positions of power or celebrity ABUSE their positions, and make use of them to get their rocks off with these gullible and stupid women. The TM organization was rife with this kind of abuse of position. In Europe I saw dozens of guys on International Staff who specialized in seducing the course participants, all while claim- ing to be celibate themselves. They would come on to some naive TMer or TM teacher and say things like I know that I should be celibate, but I'm just SO attracted to you. Then they'd fuck them a few times and forget them, and run the same number on someone else the next month, or the next week. When called on this behavior, many of them would claim not to even be able to remember having done the same thing the week or month before. It was *accepted* behavior, and as we all know now, modeled on the mindset of their teacher Maharishi, who did exactly the same thing. There IS such a thing as a power differential in real life. Like the one that bosses have over their secre- taries when they badger them into having sex with them. Like the one that therapists have with their vulnerable patients. Like the one that teachers in schools have with their students. Abuse these levels of trust and responsibility in those organizations and you'll get your ass fired or lose your license or go to prison. But when it happens in spiritual organizations, this same abuse of inherent power differentials and abuse of trust is largely ignored, and thus quietly sanctioned. People see it and then look the other way, to avoid dealing with the cognitive dissonance of people they assumed to be trustworthy proving themselves less than trustworthy. They pretend it never happened, because hypocrisy is easier to live with than the knowledge that their assumptions about these people in power are and have always been false. And worse, if someone dares to cry, The Emperor has no clothes, and in fact is waving his dick at every woman in town the way Edg just did, the True Believers gang up on him and try to make *him* the Bad Guy. I think it sucks. I lived with such hypocrisy in the Rama trip, and will never do so again. I saw him fuck his way through dozens of women, taking advantage of their naivete and their adoration. I saw him ruin some of these women's lives, get them pregnant and then demand that they get abortions, and then dump them as soon as he was finished with them. I knew many of these women personally, and provided a shoulder for them to cry on after being made to feel like a Kleenex that he'd jacked off into. That's WRONG. That an ABUSE OF TRUST. That's inexcusable. Trying to excuse it by saying that these women are/were adults and thus knew what they were doing just doesn't cut it. The incredible sway that spiritual teachers have over their students is never to be forgotten. Many of these women considered Rama almost as a God, and he encouraged them to think that way. Many of the TM women probably had their own reasons for bedding Hagelin (to get close to someone who was close with Maharishi, and thus possibly pick up some darshan cooties) or Maharishi himself (*direct* darshan cooties). But it was still the teachers or the people in power who took advantage of these women's naivete and their innocence to fuck them and then throw them away. Do NOT try to make me a party in condoning this kind of behavior in a spiritual setting, or in any other. I once got fired from a job for counseling a woman who had been the victim of sexual abuse by the
[FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
I partly agree Ann. The point where I disagree is when power differentials are at play and if the person holding the position of power ab-uses their position of trust to their advantage. This of course happens in other areas besides sexual. What makes it worse is when any harms that are exacted because of that abuse of trust are then denied or swept under the rug or minimized. Yes, the adult-of-reasonable-sound-mind victim of such abuse of trust has to ultimately accept their responsibility for their choices, even those made under undue influence or because of indoctrination. How much is the victim responsible for and how much is the person in power responsible for? Can it even be measured? I'm not condoning a victim mentality, but neither do I think victim is a dirty word. (Not saying anyone here thinks that.) I have been a victim (as I think most folks have sometime in their lives) and I have been an abuser. I'm not proud of either. If I can acknowledge both and admit it, I'm healthier for it. And hopefully have learned something in the process. * --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann awoelflebater@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. How much interest you should show in other people's private lives is a matter of debate. As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth and move on. These women were adults and they knew what they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. I'd have to agree with most of what you write her Jason. I don't actually think it's anyone's business who someone has an affair with, has oral sex with, has a crush on, pursues sexually or otherwise what they do in their private time. If someone high up in the TM movement is a serial 'lover' the only reason it seems to be a big deal here is because some people on this forum seem to think that such behaviour is not possible or probable of someone with a higher state of consciousness. Of course, this is balderdash. Certain activities are not appropriate or perhaps what I might term 'moral' or 'ethical' but to view the equivalent of a CEO in a corporation incapable of adultery or multiple affairs is just plain silly. It is just that because this 'CEO' is part of a 'spiritual' movement it is deemed extra offensive or, even sillier, points to the fact in some people's estimation that the whole practice of TM is invalid. And as far as 'preying' on poor women, the alleged transgressions of Hagelin, unless he bound, drugged and gagged them, were simply mutual consent relationships. I don't buy any of this poor victim stuff for women (or men) who go into a sexual situation with another person as anything other than a personal choice. If that ended up meaning their spouse and family hated them as a result then - guess what- too bad. These are adults who know how it all works. If you're married and you choose to fuck someone else it is going to create havoc in your life. Period. Deal with it, you'll have to in some form or other. --- Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: Given the behavior of leaders of the Movement through the years, it is legitimate to ask questions when behavior begins to manifest. It has been this way with spiritual movements for decades. People begin to misbehave and their disciples refuse to believe it, and the gurus and their chief sycophants deny it. Happened with Muktananda, Amrit Desai, Kriyananda - when I met J. Donald Walters, I would never have thought of him as a sexual user, but damned if he didn't turn out to be so - that's why he fled to Italy and stayed there till he died. Hagelin is one of the main guys the TMO and Lynch use to promote TM to whomever they think will bite - if he has mis-used his position as a faculty member to prey on his female students, the truth needs to be known. Since Edg had mentioned it, I wondered what the facts are. All legitimate questions and inquiry. The only problem is that some people who want to believe TM and its leaders are pure as the driven snow can't stand the light of truth to be shined on TM and its honchos. Hagelin's behavior if true needs to be made public so the people Hagelin pitches TM and his nonsense physics theories to know how credible he is - after all, TM supposedly makes all things better - and that should include behavior for those in positions of leadership. From: feste37 feste37@ Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:23 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel
