[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. Hey, who says I don't read stuff like that? I was big on Greek myths and Norse legends once, and even the Brothers Grimm. I just don't see that teaching it as fact is particularly helpful which is what would happen in TM schools with vedic myths. I've been to a TM centre recently, it's all ramayana this and humanphysiology is an expression of ved that. It's fundamentalism by definition. Keep the two strands of thought, science and religion, seperate is what I'm saying. The students at MSAE are smarter than you appear to think. What has intelligence got to do with holding unsupported beliefs? They well know the difference between myth and science. So they automatically seperate SCI from biology and physics as taugth in the national curriculum huh? Makes it kind of pointless of the TMO to teach them as a type of knowledge Have you ever met any of these students? Yes, why would that be relevant. It's interesting how a little comment I made about keeping religion out of schools has been turned into criticism of all aspects of these places and defence of the subjects as though I think they aren't interesting at all! You guys aren't reading closely enough, I think religious topics should be kept out of schools and minority subjects like snaskrit should be opt-in subjects for people who have made up their minds about which fields of study to take up rather than taught as they are by the TMO with it's emphasis on supreme knowledge like ved being present in human physiology, whihc doesn't even make sense. I have sat some of these classes my self you know! Some of them are awesome. Just terrific kids. And they have a lot of success with their science projects. Science is a tool and can be practised by anyone whatever their beliefs. What I'd like to see is these kids being encouraged to turn the power of science onto TM beliefs like astrology or yagyas, both of which are taught as being true in TM schools. Here's this from the MUM Review just this week. This kind of thing happens here all the time: School Students Earn Top Awards at Science Fairs A sister-and-brother team at Maharishi School won a number of state science competitions and qualified to compete at the national science fair last month. Pearl Sawhney and Surya Sawhney won first place at the Iowa Junior Science and Humanities Symposium in Iowa City; won first place and an Outstanding Achievement award in the Senior Division of the Eastern Iowa Science Engineering Fair in Cedar Rapids; and won first place in the Senior High Team Seminar, first in the Behavior and Social Sciences Category, and semifinalists for the International Science and Engineering Fair at the State Science and Technology Fair of Iowa in Ames. Their project, titled Obesity and Diet: Exploring Solutions for a Healthy Lifestyle, was based on lab experiments simulating human conditions for digesting plant and animal proteins as well as on a survey of people's eating habits and behaviors. The two investigated whether there is a connection between non-vegetarianism and obesity as well as whether non-vegetarians are at a higher risk for overeating and snacking.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: [...] Actully, there is evidence that reading/hearing/performing poetry and music (what are classical Vedic texts except poetry and music?) have measurable effects on the brain L I'd like to see the research. Do you have links? http://www.frontiersin.org/Human_Neuroscience/10.3389/fnhum.2012.00066/full There may be others. The effect was predicted by Maslow 40 years ago. The TM researchers have been trying to find such an effect for years, and even published one study, IRRC. If you are interested, I can try to dredge that up too. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
I think an MSAE girls team just placed 7th in the world Destination Imagination competition in Knoxville. Plus the school wins lots of athletic awards and drama awards. All in all, these kids are amazing. And I bet they score very high in field independence. From: feste37 fest...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. Hey, who says I don't read stuff like that? I was big on Greek myths and Norse legends once, and even the Brothers Grimm. I just don't see that teaching it as fact is particularly helpful which is what would happen in TM schools with vedic myths. I've been to a TM centre recently, it's all ramayana this and humanphysiology is an expression of ved that. It's fundamentalism by definition. Keep the two strands of thought, science and religion, seperate is what I'm saying. The students at MSAE are smarter than you appear to think. They well know the difference between myth and science. Have you ever met any of these students? Some of them are awesome. Just terrific kids. And they have a lot of success with their science projects. Here's this from the MUM Review just this week. This kind of thing happens here all the time: School Students Earn Top Awards at Science Fairs A sister-and-brother team at Maharishi School won a number of state science competitions and qualified to compete at the national science fair last month. Pearl Sawhney and Surya Sawhney won first place at the Iowa Junior Science and Humanities Symposium in Iowa City; won first place and an Outstanding Achievement award in the Senior Division of the Eastern Iowa Science Engineering Fair in Cedar Rapids; and won first place in the Senior High Team Seminar, first in the Behavior and Social Sciences Category, and semifinalists for the International Science and Engineering Fair at the State Science and Technology Fair of Iowa in Ames. Their project, titled Obesity and Diet: Exploring Solutions for a Healthy Lifestyle, was based on lab experiments simulating human conditions for digesting plant and animal proteins as well as on a survey of people's eating habits and behaviors. The two investigated whether there is a connection between non-vegetarianism and obesity as well as whether non-vegetarians are at a higher risk for overeating and snacking.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: I think an MSAE girls team just placed 7th in the world Destination Imagination competition in Knoxville. Plus the school wins lots of athletic awards and drama awards. All in all, these kids are amazing. And I bet they score very high in field independence. Are you suggesting that the teaching of astrology and other TM beliefs in schools as though they are established facts is making the pupils better athletes? I'm honestly scratching my head at the amount of resistance there is to keeping religion out of education and none of it is forming a relevant argument, it's all of the these kids are really nice and good at sport variety. Surely you can create happy, fit kids without teaching them nonsense? From: feste37 feste37@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. Hey, who says I don't read stuff like that? I was big on Greek myths and Norse legends once, and even the Brothers Grimm. I just don't see that teaching it as fact is particularly helpful which is what would happen in TM schools with vedic myths. I've been to a TM centre recently, it's all ramayana this and humanphysiology is an expression of ved that. It's fundamentalism by definition. Keep the two strands of thought, science and religion, seperate is what I'm saying. The students at MSAE are smarter than you appear to think. They well know the difference between myth and science. Have you ever met any of these students? Some of them are awesome. Just terrific kids. And they have a lot of success with their science projects. Here's this from the MUM Review just this week. This kind of thing happens here all the time: School Students Earn Top Awards at Science Fairs A sister-and-brother team at Maharishi School won a number of state science competitions and qualified to compete at the national science fair last month. Pearl Sawhney and Surya Sawhney won first place at the Iowa Junior Science and Humanities Symposium in Iowa City; won first place and an Outstanding Achievement award in the Senior Division of the Eastern Iowa Science Engineering Fair in Cedar Rapids; and won first place in the Senior High Team Seminar, first in the Behavior and Social Sciences Category, and semifinalists for the International Science and Engineering Fair at the State Science and Technology Fair of Iowa in Ames. Their project, titled Obesity and Diet: Exploring Solutions for a Healthy Lifestyle, was based on lab experiments simulating human conditions for digesting plant and animal proteins as well as on a survey of people's eating habits and behaviors. The two investigated whether there is a connection between non-vegetarianism and obesity as well as whether non-vegetarians are at a higher risk for overeating and snacking.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
I think the point is that MSAE produces well-rounded students who excel in many areas, both academic and nonacademic. There are plenty of schools that would love to have a record of achievement to match MSAE's. As for teaching them nonsense, I prefer to think that they are being presented with a coherent worldview that enables them to make sense of their lives in a way that is very helpful and useful for them. I am not sure they are actually taught astrology, although it is certainly part of the worldview. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: I think an MSAE girls team just placed 7th in the world Destination Imagination competition in Knoxville. Plus the school wins lots of athletic awards and drama awards. All in all, these kids are amazing. And I bet they score very high in field independence. Are you suggesting that the teaching of astrology and other TM beliefs in schools as though they are established facts is making the pupils better athletes? I'm honestly scratching my head at the amount of resistance there is to keeping religion out of education and none of it is forming a relevant argument, it's all of the these kids are really nice and good at sport variety. Surely you can create happy, fit kids without teaching them nonsense? From: feste37 feste37@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. Hey, who says I don't read stuff like that? I was big on Greek myths and Norse legends once, and even the Brothers Grimm. I just don't see that teaching it as fact is particularly helpful which is what would happen in TM schools with vedic myths. I've been to a TM centre recently, it's all ramayana this and humanphysiology is an expression of ved that. It's fundamentalism by definition. Keep the two strands of thought, science and religion, seperate is what I'm saying. The students at MSAE are smarter than you appear to think. They well know the difference between myth and science. Have you ever met any of these students? Some of them are awesome. Just terrific kids. And they have a lot of success with their science projects. Here's this from the MUM Review just this week. This kind of thing happens here all the time: School Students Earn Top Awards at Science Fairs A sister-and-brother team at Maharishi School won a number of state science competitions and qualified to compete at the national science fair last month. Pearl Sawhney and Surya Sawhney won first place at the Iowa Junior Science and Humanities Symposium in Iowa City; won first place and an Outstanding Achievement award in the Senior Division of the Eastern Iowa Science Engineering Fair in Cedar Rapids; and won first place in the Senior High Team Seminar, first in the Behavior and Social Sciences Category, and semifinalists for the International Science and Engineering Fair at the State Science and Technology Fair of Iowa in Ames. Their project, titled Obesity and Diet: Exploring Solutions
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@... wrote: I think the point is that MSAE produces well-rounded students who excel in many areas, both academic and nonacademic. There are plenty of schools that would love to have a record of achievement to match MSAE's. As for teaching them nonsense, I prefer to think that they are being presented with a coherent worldview that enables them to make sense of their lives in a way that is very helpful and useful for them. I am not sure they are actually taught astrology, although it is certainly part of the worldview. You don't mind your kids being taught nonsense as long as it's coherent nonsense? I see why the christian fundies get away with teaching that dinosaurs died in Noahs flood, that's a coherent world view too. As long as you refuse to look at the facts. I was visiting friends of mine who had kids at a TM school and one of the boys, who was very bright indeed, announced over dinner that he'd got a good mark in jyotish. I nearly choked into my vegetable soup, this lad was headed for Oxford to study physics and he was being taught that the postion of some of the planets at the time of his birth were indicators of personality and destiny! Luckily for him he rejected the TM knowledge as a load of bollocks and is now happily studying science properly outside of a TM institution. Lots of kids do this apparently, the disconnect between SCI and a reality based view of the world is too much a charade to carry on with so it makes me wonder why they bother in the first place? I repeat for the last time, I couldn't care less what people believe or decide is true for them once they've left school but can we leave the offspring out of our superstitious peculiarites and give them a chance to learn how to evaluate evidence properly? Not that unreasonable really. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: I think an MSAE girls team just placed 7th in the world Destination Imagination competition in Knoxville. Plus the school wins lots of athletic awards and drama awards. All in all, these kids are amazing. And I bet they score very high in field independence. Are you suggesting that the teaching of astrology and other TM beliefs in schools as though they are established facts is making the pupils better athletes? I'm honestly scratching my head at the amount of resistance there is to keeping religion out of education and none of it is forming a relevant argument, it's all of the these kids are really nice and good at sport variety. Surely you can create happy, fit kids without teaching them nonsense? From: feste37 feste37@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. Hey, who says I don't read stuff like that? I was big on Greek myths and Norse legends once, and even the Brothers Grimm. I just don't see that teaching it as fact is particularly helpful which is what would happen in TM
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Fortunately, I do not have any kids. I do not share your belief that what these students are taught is nonsense. Of course, some reject it later, when they go on to other things. That's to be expected, just like sometimes people reject Catholicism, or whatever they were brought up with. As far as astrology is concerned, I am convinced of its validity and have no objection to people being taught it. I regard it as a very useful science, although I am not myself a practicing astrologer. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@ wrote: I think the point is that MSAE produces well-rounded students who excel in many areas, both academic and nonacademic. There are plenty of schools that would love to have a record of achievement to match MSAE's. As for teaching them nonsense, I prefer to think that they are being presented with a coherent worldview that enables them to make sense of their lives in a way that is very helpful and useful for them. I am not sure they are actually taught astrology, although it is certainly part of the worldview. You don't mind your kids being taught nonsense as long as it's coherent nonsense? I see why the christian fundies get away with teaching that dinosaurs died in Noahs flood, that's a coherent world view too. As long as you refuse to look at the facts. I was visiting friends of mine who had kids at a TM school and one of the boys, who was very bright indeed, announced over dinner that he'd got a good mark in jyotish. I nearly choked into my vegetable soup, this lad was headed for Oxford to study physics and he was being taught that the postion of some of the planets at the time of his birth were indicators of personality and destiny! Luckily for him he rejected the TM knowledge as a load of bollocks and is now happily studying science properly outside of a TM institution. Lots of kids do this apparently, the disconnect between SCI and a reality based view of the world is too much a charade to carry on with so it makes me wonder why they bother in the first place? I repeat for the last time, I couldn't care less what people believe or decide is true for them once they've left school but can we leave the offspring out of our superstitious peculiarites and give them a chance to learn how to evaluate evidence properly? Not that unreasonable really. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: I think an MSAE girls team just placed 7th in the world Destination Imagination competition in Knoxville. Plus the school wins lots of athletic awards and drama awards. All in all, these kids are amazing. And I bet they score very high in field independence. Are you suggesting that the teaching of astrology and other TM beliefs in schools as though they are established facts is making the pupils better athletes? I'm honestly scratching my head at the amount of resistance there is to keeping religion out of education and none of it is forming a relevant argument, it's all of the these kids are really nice and good at sport variety. Surely you can create happy, fit kids without teaching them nonsense? From: feste37 feste37@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
WTF? Saly, did you delete your reply about the USofA? I thought it was a pretty good reply. Why so? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@ wrote: I think the point is that MSAE produces well-rounded students who excel in many areas, both academic and nonacademic. There are plenty of schools that would love to have a record of achievement to match MSAE's. As for teaching them nonsense, I prefer to think that they are being presented with a coherent worldview that enables them to make sense of their lives in a way that is very helpful and useful for them. I am not sure they are actually taught astrology, although it is certainly part of the worldview. You don't mind your kids being taught nonsense as long as it's coherent nonsense? I see why the christian fundies get away with teaching that dinosaurs died in Noahs flood, that's a coherent world view too. As long as you refuse to look at the facts. I was visiting friends of mine who had kids at a TM school and one of the boys, who was very bright indeed, announced over dinner that he'd got a good mark in jyotish. I nearly choked into my vegetable soup, this lad was headed for Oxford to study physics and he was being taught that the postion of some of the planets at the time of his birth were indicators of personality and destiny! Luckily for him he rejected the TM knowledge as a load of bollocks and is now happily studying science properly outside of a TM institution. Lots of kids do this apparently, the disconnect between SCI and a reality based view of the world is too much a charade to carry on with so it makes me wonder why they bother in the first place? I repeat for the last time, I couldn't care less what people believe or decide is true for them once they've left school but can we leave the offspring out of our superstitious peculiarites and give them a chance to learn how to evaluate evidence properly? Not that unreasonable really. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: I think an MSAE girls team just placed 7th in the world Destination Imagination competition in Knoxville. Plus the school wins lots of athletic awards and drama awards. All in all, these kids are amazing. And I bet they score very high in field independence. Are you suggesting that the teaching of astrology and other TM beliefs in schools as though they are established facts is making the pupils better athletes? I'm honestly scratching my head at the amount of resistance there is to keeping religion out of education and none of it is forming a relevant argument, it's all of the these kids are really nice and good at sport variety. Surely you can create happy, fit kids without teaching them nonsense? From: feste37 feste37@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. Hey, who says I don't read stuff like that? I was big on Greek myths and Norse legends once, and even the Brothers Grimm
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
I guess our English friend realized that it doesn't pay to mess with the USA! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@... wrote: WTF? Saly, did you delete your reply about the USofA? I thought it was a pretty good reply. Why so? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@ wrote: I think the point is that MSAE produces well-rounded students who excel in many areas, both academic and nonacademic. There are plenty of schools that would love to have a record of achievement to match MSAE's. As for teaching them nonsense, I prefer to think that they are being presented with a coherent worldview that enables them to make sense of their lives in a way that is very helpful and useful for them. I am not sure they are actually taught astrology, although it is certainly part of the worldview. You don't mind your kids being taught nonsense as long as it's coherent nonsense? I see why the christian fundies get away with teaching that dinosaurs died in Noahs flood, that's a coherent world view too. As long as you refuse to look at the facts. I was visiting friends of mine who had kids at a TM school and one of the boys, who was very bright indeed, announced over dinner that he'd got a good mark in jyotish. I nearly choked into my vegetable soup, this lad was headed for Oxford to study physics and he was being taught that the postion of some of the planets at the time of his birth were indicators of personality and destiny! Luckily for him he rejected the TM knowledge as a load of bollocks and is now happily studying science properly outside of a TM institution. Lots of kids do this apparently, the disconnect between SCI and a reality based view of the world is too much a charade to carry on with so it makes me wonder why they bother in the first place? I repeat for the last time, I couldn't care less what people believe or decide is true for them once they've left school but can we leave the offspring out of our superstitious peculiarites and give them a chance to learn how to evaluate evidence properly? Not that unreasonable really. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: I think an MSAE girls team just placed 7th in the world Destination Imagination competition in Knoxville. Plus the school wins lots of athletic awards and drama awards. All in all, these kids are amazing. And I bet they score very high in field independence. Are you suggesting that the teaching of astrology and other TM beliefs in schools as though they are established facts is making the pupils better athletes? I'm honestly scratching my head at the amount of resistance there is to keeping religion out of education and none of it is forming a relevant argument, it's all of the these kids are really nice and good at sport variety. Surely you can create happy, fit kids without teaching them nonsense? From: feste37 feste37@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Hinduism is a generic term... Jason: Well, it's not exactly 'Indus valley' practices. The traditional view of the spread of the Indo-European languages holds that an Ur-language, ancestor of all others, was spoken by nomadic horsemen who lived in southern Russia near the beginning of the Bronze Age. As these mounted warriors roamed over greater expanses, they conquered the indigenous peoples and imposed their own proto-Indo-European language. Jha begins by showing that the Indus script was the first and the oldest scientific script of the world, which later on crossed the national boundary and went to West Asia and Europe, where it developed as Semitic and Greek. Go figure. He then goes on to present the reader a convincing, stage-by-stage comparative study. Now it seems the Greek script derived from the old-Brahmi! According to what I've read, the racial diversity found in skeletons in the cities of the Indus civilization is the same as in India today; there is no evidence of the coming of a new race. Not only were the Vedic people not nomadic invaders, their very holy land, the Saraswati or Land of the Seven Rivers region, is described in the Vedas as it was during and prior to the Indus Valley culture, not after it, when the so-called invasion occurred. Read more: Subject: Indus Valley Seals Deciphered Author: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: May 28, 2000 http://tinyurl.com/75fr98n Work cited: 1.'Vedic Glossary on Indus Seals' by Natwar Jha Varanasi, 1996: Ganga-Kaveri Publishing (D 35/77 Jangamawadimath, Varanasi 221 001, India) 60 pages
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@... wrote: WTF? Saly, did you delete your reply about the USofA? I thought it was a pretty good reply. Why so? Posted it too soon. Was going to add more about the death of England (as I see it) but got sidetracked. I love a good rant about the state of the world so don't worry, it'll be back.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@... wrote: Fortunately, I do not have any kids. I do not share your belief that what these students are taught is nonsense. Of course, some reject it later, when they go on to other things. That's to be expected, just like sometimes people reject Catholicism, or whatever they were brought up with. Well, I wouldn't bring my kids up to be religious either, things like that are definitely a case of make your own mind up. But school is different, what gets taught is going to be formative so we should be careful not to fill heads with unproven stuff that we happen to have brought into for whatever reason. I'd like to see s study of MSAE pupils to see how many carry on aspects of SCI or how many reject it when it becomes incompatible with further studies. As far as astrology is concerned, I am convinced of its validity and have no objection to people being taught it. I regard it as a very useful science, although I am not myself a practicing astrologer. I'm equally convinced it's total rubbish, but I have my moon in sagittarius which is bound to make me a bit sceptical isn't it?
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: Philosophy is also a science, or should be. That's quite some statement salyavin808! Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean? Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! I am wondering whether you have a quaintly 19th century (and early 20th century) idea of what Philosopy is?* Is it that you think that traditional problems of Philosophy (such as 'the one and the many', 'the reality of universals', 'how do I know?', 'what ought I do') are now best answered by the likes of Richard Dawkins and Brian Cox rather than tired old non-scientific ranters such as Plato, Kant, Heidegger, Popper et.al.? * Positivism** ** News flash: Postivism is a very dated and discredited philosophy judging by peer-reviewed philosophival literature*** Most philosophers consider logical positivism to be, as John Passmore expressed it, dead, or as dead as a philosophical movement ever becomes.[18] By the late 1970s, its ideas were so generally recognized to be seriously defective that one of its own main proponents, A. J. Ayer, could say in an interview: I suppose the most important [defect]...was that nearly all of it was false. [Wiki] *** The significane of 'peer-review' is a relatively recent addition to the vocabulary of the philosophy of science. It is generally deployed by proponents of politicised and post-modern 'science'. Memo to self: 'You should not have used this concept'.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, PaliGap compost1uk@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: Philosophy is also a science, or should be. That's quite some statement salyavin808! Not really. Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean? That it should be approached logically, rationally and empirically and that it isn't the preserve of any old daydreamer Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! I am wondering whether you have a quaintly 19th century (and early 20th century) idea of what Philosopy is?* Wonder to your heart's content. Is it that you think that traditional problems of Philosophy (such as 'the one and the many', 'the reality of universals', 'how do I know?', 'what ought I do') are now best answered by the likes of Richard Dawkins and Brian Cox rather than tired old non-scientific ranters such as Plato, Kant, Heidegger, Popper et.al.? Extremely likely, it would depend on the mass of supporting evidence. You won't get very far in philosophy without being au fait with what is actually happening, it depends on what field you operate in, here we are talking about things like karma and reincarnation which belong to eastern spiritual realm and not philosophy as they have no supporting evidence and are unnecessary to account for what we see in the world. Hence my contention that there is no such thing as eastern philosophy. You may postulate to your hearts content that there are such things. * Positivism** ** News flash: Postivism is a very dated and discredited philosophy judging by peer-reviewed philosophival literature*** Most philosophers consider logical positivism to be, as John Passmore expressed it, dead, or as dead as a philosophical movement ever becomes.[18] By the late 1970s, its ideas were so generally recognized to be seriously defective that one of its own main proponents, A. J. Ayer, could say in an interview: I suppose the most important [defect]...was that nearly all of it was false. [Wiki] *** The significane of 'peer-review' is a relatively recent addition to the vocabulary of the philosophy of science. It is generally deployed by proponents of politicised and post-modern 'science'. Memo to self: 'You should not have used this concept'.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity. A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests. Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of mathematics) students who do not study a foreign language and have more mathematical instruction during the school day. Again, this research upholds the notion that learning a second language is an exercise in cognitive problem solving and that the effects of second language instruction are directly transferable to the area of mathematical skill development. The notion of earlier is better in language learning seems to be upheld by the fact that longer sequences of foreign language instruction seem to lead to better academic achievement, overall. Because second language instruction provides young children with better cognitive flexibility and creative thinking skills, it can offer gifted students the intellectual and developmental challenges they need and desire. http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4724
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). My beef with religious education is that kids are taught stuff because their parents believe it and not because it's demonstrably true. See the christian fundies and their museum of dinosaurs and men coexisting happily. We should be thankful the TMO never got vedaland off the ground! Keep the religion out of schools and let the kids decide if they want or need it once they've learned how to evaluate what is being taught is the only way to be fair on them. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity. A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests. Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of mathematics) students who do not study a foreign language and have more mathematical instruction during the school day. Again, this research upholds the notion that learning a second language is an exercise in cognitive problem solving and that the effects of second language instruction are directly transferable to the area of mathematical skill development. The notion of earlier is better in language learning seems to be upheld by the fact that longer sequences of foreign language instruction seem to lead to better academic achievement, overall. Because second language instruction provides young children with better cognitive flexibility and creative thinking skills, it can offer gifted students the intellectual and developmental challenges they need and desire. http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4724
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). I would tend to agree. While I agree (being in the process of raising a kid to speak Dutch, English, and smatterings of French and Spanish) that learning other languages is of great benefit, I contest the notion that Sanskrit should be the language of choice. It seems to me that the ONLY reasons one could propose for this choice have to do with parents having already bought into the idea that Sanskrit is somehow meta- physically special, and has some mystical meaning. To the parents, this language comes pre-loaded with significance that it probably does not really have. Wannabe Hindus teaching kids Sanskrit seems to me to culture their nervous systems seems to me to have the same relationship to wannabe Cathars teaching their kids ancient Langue d'Oc. Neither language is spoken, anywhere. Neither language has any usefulness to anything here and now in real life, and would be of use only if the kids wanted to read supposed scriptures or poetry written in the ancient language. The buy in to Sanskrit having value *other than* learning another language seems to be only on the part of the parents' buy in to it being somehow special, and hoping to convey that belief to their kids. Even learning Latin and Greek would be more useful IMO, because although it would be difficult to find anywhere outside of reclusive religious communities in which the ancient forms of those languages are still used or spoken, the words themselves form the basis of many other modern languages, and thus could aid in the formation of skills *in* those modern languages. My beef with religious education is that kids are taught stuff because their parents believe it and not because it's demonstrably true. Exactly. See the christian fundies and their museum of dinosaurs and men coexisting happily. We should be thankful the TMO never got vedaland off the ground! Keep the religion out of schools and let the kids decide if they want or need it once they've learned how to evaluate what is being taught is the only way to be fair on them. Or, as has been wisely proposed here before, teach a wide variety of religious concepts, weighting NONE of them any higher than any other, and teaching along with them the critical skills and discrimination to enable kids to *determine for themselves* the truth or falsity of any of them. I'm reminded of my (blessedly) short experience in Sunday School. As I've mentioned before, I was literally thrown out, and the teacher then called my parents and told them I was not allowed to return. Why? For exercising the exact skills I propose above. The teacher was going on and on about Genesis, and how Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, but then moved to the land of Nod and such-and-such married so-and-so and begat so-and-so, and so on. I spoke up and asked, Now wait a minute. Where did these other people come from? The teacher tried to silence me. I was having none of it, and kept pressing the question, and soon other kids were joining me in asking it. The result was that I was excommunicated at something like age 5 from the Presby- terian Church, something that in retrospect I am thankful for to this day. :-) Kids should be taught how to *evaluate* myths, not to regard them as Truth.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
OTOH, since it's the nature of teens to rebel against parents, if parents have given them nothing to rebel against, maybe those teens will become fundis. I've often been grateful that I had the Catholic Church to rebel against (-: BTW, MSAE grads have been known to rebel against TM, etc. From: salyavin808 fintlewoodle...@mail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 3:19 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). My beef with religious education is that kids are taught stuff because their parents believe it and not because it's demonstrably true. See the christian fundies and their museum of dinosaurs and men coexisting happily. We should be thankful the TMO never got vedaland off the ground! Keep the religion out of schools and let the kids decide if they want or need it once they've learned how to evaluate what is being taught is the only way to be fair on them. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity. A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests. Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of mathematics) students who do not study a foreign language and have more mathematical instruction during the school day. Again, this research upholds the notion that learning a second language is an exercise in cognitive problem solving and that the effects of second language instruction are directly transferable to the area of mathematical skill development. The notion of earlier is better in language learning seems to be upheld by the fact that longer sequences of foreign language instruction seem to lead to better academic achievement, overall. Because second language instruction provides young children with better cognitive flexibility and creative thinking skills, it can offer gifted students the intellectual and developmental challenges they need and desire. http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4724
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). Granted, my two years of high school French would probably get me to the beach more directly than the two years of Latin I had. Fortunately, I escaped conversion to Catholicism and suffered no embarrassing episodes of stigmata. Sanskrit played an important role in the development of Western philology, or historical linguistics. European scholarship in Sanskrit, begun by Heinrich Roth (16201668) and Johann Ernst Hanxleden (16811731), [25] is regarded as responsible for the discovery of the Indo-European language family by Sir William Jones. Sir William Jones, speaking to the Asiatic Society in Calcutta (now Kolkata) on February 2, 1786, said: The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong, indeed, that no philosopher could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists. Wikipedia: Sanskrit. My beef with religious education is that kids are taught stuff because their parents believe it and not because it's demonstrably true. See the christian fundies and their museum of dinosaurs and men coexisting happily. We should be thankful the TMO never got vedaland off the ground! Keep the religion out of schools and let the kids decide if they want or need it once they've learned how to evaluate what is being taught is the only way to be fair on them. Religious indoctrination has no place in public schools. Private schools can teach whatever they want if the parents pay for it, but not on my taxpayer nickle, thank you very much. No Child Left Behind, reintroduced as Obama's Race to the Top (Bottom), school vouchers and charter schools are nothing more that a corporate take over of public schools and the dumbing down of America...but that's another story, far more concerning to me than MSAE kids learning Sanskrit. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity. A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests. Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
...it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean... raunchydog: No Child Left Behind, reintroduced as Obama's Race to the Top (Bottom), school vouchers and charter schools are nothing more that a corporate take over of public schools and the dumbing down of America... The 'No Child Left Behind' Act passed in the U.S. Congress with bipartisan support. Are there any political candidates in the U.S. that do NOT support the NCLB besides Ron Paul? Ron Paul on Education: http://tinyurl.com/86rl4ws
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q14wAJEEa4feature=related --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity. A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests. Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of mathematics) students who do not study a foreign language and have more mathematical instruction during the school day. Again, this research upholds the notion that learning a second language is an exercise in cognitive problem solving and that the effects of second language instruction are directly transferable to the area of mathematical skill development. The notion of earlier is better in language learning seems to be upheld by the fact that longer sequences of foreign language instruction seem to lead to better academic achievement, overall. Because second language instruction provides young children with better cognitive flexibility and creative thinking skills, it can offer gifted students the intellectual and developmental challenges they need and desire. http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4724
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote: ...it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean... raunchydog: No Child Left Behind, reintroduced as Obama's Race to the Top (Bottom), school vouchers and charter schools are nothing more that a corporate take over of public schools and the dumbing down of America... The 'No Child Left Behind' Act passed in the U.S. Congress with bipartisan support. Are there any political candidates in the U.S. that do NOT support the NCLB besides Ron Paul? Ron Paul on Education: http://tinyurl.com/86rl4ws Yep, and they're all on the dole taking corporate money for campaigns. We have the worst government corporate money can buy. Ron Paul would privatize the air you breath and the ground you walk on, public education not withstanding.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, merudanda no_reply@... wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q14wAJEEa4feature=related St. James School is, as it turns out, famous for teaching not only a wide range of spiritual and religious traditions, but for giving students the tools to evaluate them for them- selves. They don't push any particular path or approach, respecting their students enough to give them a taste of many and choose for themselves. Their curriculum sounds remark- ably like the one I rapped about earlier today. I would think that the teaching of Sanskrit would fit perfectly in their situation, because it would be taught as just one language among many, representing just one spiritual tradition among many. I doubt this is done at MSAE. From St. Johns' online history: In addition to a number of remarkable initiatives in the fields of art, music, law and science, Leon MacLaren founded a school for children. It was to provide a complete education for boys and girls from four and a half to eighteen, which would look after their spiritual, mental and physical development. Since then, over the last 30 years, St James schools have developed a distinctive philosophical approach to education, inspired by both the Platonic ideals of beauty and harmony, along with the eastern concepts of unity among the human family. The schools care for pupils from all the major faiths, as well as for those with no particular faith. The approach is to emphasise the universality of the spirit, encouraging pupils to follow their family's religious tradition, if they have one, or to pursue questions about their own true nature. Self-discovery is an important aspect in the St James education. In addition to the spiritual and philosophical aspects of living, there is encouragement to develop emotional strength, intellectual clarity and creative fluidity. The aim is to develop reason and reflective intelligence, and to demonstrate these qualities through relationships based on love and certainty. Each child is taught through a variety of means to respect, honour and care for every person and to discover the importance of a spiritual dimension in their lives. The test is their willingness to work in love and harmony with everyone. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity. A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests. Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of mathematics) students who do not study a foreign language and have more mathematical instruction during the school day. Again, this research upholds the notion that learning a second language is an exercise in cognitive problem solving and that the effects of second language instruction are directly transferable to the area of mathematical skill development. The notion of earlier is better in language
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). Granted, my two years of high school French would probably get me to the beach more directly than the two years of Latin I had. Unless you go to Rome. Maybe. Fortunately, I escaped conversion to Catholicism and suffered no embarrassing episodes of stigmata. Lucky break! Sanskrit played an important role in the development of Western philology, or historical linguistics. European scholarship in Sanskrit, begun by Heinrich Roth (16201668) and Johann Ernst Hanxleden (16811731), [25] is regarded as responsible for the discovery of the Indo-European language family by Sir William Jones. Sir William Jones, speaking to the Asiatic Society in Calcutta (now Kolkata) on February 2, 1786, said: The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong, indeed, that no philosopher could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists. Wikipedia: Sanskrit. All very interesting but it isn't useful for kids in any way I can see so I think it should be an opt-in thing rather than taught as fundamental to *us* as the TMO teach it to be. Unless and until they can demonstrate that it is fundamental to us in any way and how that might benefit us. My beef with religious education is that kids are taught stuff because their parents believe it and not because it's demonstrably true. See the christian fundies and their museum of dinosaurs and men coexisting happily. We should be thankful the TMO never got vedaland off the ground! Keep the religion out of schools and let the kids decide if they want or need it once they've learned how to evaluate what is being taught is the only way to be fair on them. Religious indoctrination has no place in public schools. Private schools can teach whatever they want if the parents pay for it, but not on my taxpayer nickle, thank you very much. I think private schools should be prevented too, not that that's likely, I just feel sorry for the kids growing up believing any sort of patent nonsense. But then most of the TM kids I know have reject the TM dogma and are getting on fine in the normal colleges they end up in. I wonder if the ones that don't reject it automatically know when to keep quite about the knowledge when studying in non-TM schools? Or do they really accept it, might be tricky if you went from an MSAE to university to study physics and tried telling the lecturer that consciousness is the unified field. Or someone going on to major in biology claiming that human physiology is fundamentally a hindu poem? Any rude awakenings like this on record? No Child Left Behind, reintroduced as Obama's Race to the Top (Bottom), school vouchers and charter schools are
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/23/2012 01:19 AM, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). Hold on there. Let me guess, you've never even looked at a course on Sanskrit? First off linguists will tell you that many languages have roots in Sanskrit. And you could undoubtedly teach a course on Sanskrit without ever touching any of the religious texts. There are a lot of nouns and verbs very much in common with any modern day language. Yes, you could indeed have a Sanskrit phrase book to ask the way to the beach. And learning Devanagari you could go to India and read a lot of the signs there. Though many of said signs may be both in English and Devanagari sometimes the words are still English words spelled in Devanagari. You can thank the Brits for that. But Hindi is a language that though definitely has roots in Sanskrit has a lot of foreign influences too. It is funny to watch a Bollywood film and all of a sudden they drop into English phrases for things. Sanskrit appears to be an engineered whereas much of our language are degenerated mongrel mixes of several languages. It is more precise in meaning, so much so that some linguists tried using it as an intermediate language for computer programs to translate between different languages. And also I don't consider yoga a religion. It is a science. Oh yeah, there are no fancy devices and technology like western science has but it is more a science and art than a religion. Remember that the Hindu religion is really a philosophy. It's the invading Arabs that thought it was a religion (little did they know). :-D
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). I would tend to agree. While I agree (being in the process of raising a kid to speak Dutch, English, and smatterings of French and Spanish) that learning other languages is of great benefit, I contest the notion that Sanskrit should be the language of choice. It seems to me that the ONLY reasons one could propose for this choice have to do with parents having already bought into the idea that Sanskrit is somehow meta- physically special, and has some mystical meaning. To the parents, this language comes pre-loaded with significance that it probably does not really have. Wannabe Hindus teaching kids Sanskrit seems to me to culture their nervous systems seems to me to have the same relationship to wannabe Cathars teaching their kids ancient Langue d'Oc. Neither language is spoken, anywhere. Neither language has any usefulness to anything here and now in real life, and would be of use only if the kids wanted to read supposed scriptures or poetry written in the ancient language. The buy in to Sanskrit having value *other than* learning another language seems to be only on the part of the parents' buy in to it being somehow special, and hoping to convey that belief to their kids. Even learning Latin and Greek would be more useful IMO, because although it would be difficult to find anywhere outside of reclusive religious communities in which the ancient forms of those languages are still used or spoken, the words themselves form the basis of many other modern languages, and thus could aid in the formation of skills *in* those modern languages. My beef with religious education is that kids are taught stuff because their parents believe it and not because it's demonstrably true. Exactly. See the christian fundies and their museum of dinosaurs and men coexisting happily. We should be thankful the TMO never got vedaland off the ground! Keep the religion out of schools and let the kids decide if they want or need it once they've learned how to evaluate what is being taught is the only way to be fair on them. Or, as has been wisely proposed here before, teach a wide variety of religious concepts, weighting NONE of them any higher than any other, and teaching along with them the critical skills and discrimination to enable kids to *determine for themselves* the truth or falsity of any of them. I'm reminded of my (blessedly) short experience in Sunday School. As I've mentioned before, I was literally thrown out, and the teacher then called my parents and told them I was not allowed to return. Why? For exercising the exact skills I propose above. The teacher was going on and on about Genesis, and how Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, but then moved to the land of Nod and such-and-such married so-and-so and begat so-and-so, and so on. I spoke up and asked, Now wait a minute. Where did these other people come from? The teacher tried to silence me. I was having none of it, and kept pressing the question, and soon other kids were joining me in asking it. The result was that I was excommunicated at something like age 5 from the Presby- terian Church, something that in retrospect I am thankful for to this day. :-) I didn't go back after my first class because no-one could answer the question so what? I still don't get what christianity is really all about which is weird seeing it underpins everything in our society, whereas the TM teachings settled into my mind instantly. Plenty of people are the other way round of course. Kids should be taught how to *evaluate* myths, not to regard them as Truth. Definitely, a history of human thought lesson would be just the job, it could cover everything and show how beliefs stand the test of time and get replaced when out- dated. Or come back in fashion when demonstrated to have worth, which is what I guess the TMO is trying to do. The trick is proving that what you have has actual worth rather than the my guru told me approach, which would make an interesting lesson in itself!
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@ wrote: ...it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean... raunchydog: No Child Left Behind, reintroduced as Obama's Race to the Top (Bottom), school vouchers and charter schools are nothing more that a corporate take over of public schools and the dumbing down of America... The 'No Child Left Behind' Act passed in the U.S. Congress with bipartisan support. Are there any political candidates in the U.S. that do NOT support the NCLB besides Ron Paul? Ron Paul on Education: http://tinyurl.com/86rl4ws Yep, and they're all on the dole taking corporate money for campaigns. We have the worst government corporate money can buy. Ron Paul would privatize the air you breath and the ground you walk on, public education not withstanding. Dear Ron Paul Give it up Ron... It's just not your 'Dharma'... You're a Doctor, Ron...not a 'Commander in Chief'... Look in the mirror...you just don't look like, let alone talk like, a Commander in Chief... Go back to Texas, Ron, and spend some time just 'Chilling', k?
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, merudanda no_reply@... wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q14wAJEEa4feature=related Thanks, merudanda. Loved the video. Several folks in the comments asked why anyone would want to study a dead language. According to the person who uploaded the video, and referenced this fascinating article, it turns out Sanskrit is on the cutting edge of research in Artificial Intelligence: Sanskrit Artificial Intelligence NASA Knowledge Representation in Sanskrit and Artificial Intelligence by Rick Briggs http://www.mandir.ws/Mandir%20Files/Pictures/Sanskrit.pdf --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity. A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests. Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of mathematics) students who do not study a foreign language and have more mathematical instruction during the school day. Again, this research upholds the notion that learning a second language is an exercise in cognitive problem solving and that the effects of second language instruction are directly transferable to the area of mathematical skill development. The notion of earlier is better in language learning seems to be upheld by the fact that longer sequences of foreign language instruction seem to lead to better academic achievement, overall. Because second language instruction provides young children with better cognitive flexibility and creative thinking skills, it can offer gifted students the intellectual and developmental challenges they need and desire. http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4724
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 06/23/2012 01:19 AM, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). Hold on there. Let me guess, you've never even looked at a course on Sanskrit? First off linguists will tell you that many languages have roots in Sanskrit. And you could undoubtedly teach a course on Sanskrit without ever touching any of the religious texts. There are a lot of nouns and verbs very much in common with any modern day language. Yes, you could indeed have a Sanskrit phrase book to ask the way to the beach. I'm sure it's fascinating. My point is that it isn't going to benefit kids anywhere near as much as a european language would, and should be something that adults opt into. And that the TMO will have quite a loaded agenda. And learning Devanagari you could go to India and read a lot of the signs there. Though many of said signs may be both in English and Devanagari sometimes the words are still English words spelled in Devanagari. You can thank the Brits for that. But Hindi is a language that though definitely has roots in Sanskrit has a lot of foreign influences too. It is funny to watch a Bollywood film and all of a sudden they drop into English phrases for things. Sanskrit appears to be an engineered whereas much of our language are degenerated mongrel mixes of several languages. It is more precise in meaning, so much so that some linguists tried using it as an intermediate language for computer programs to translate between different languages. And also I don't consider yoga a religion. It is a science. Oh yeah, there are no fancy devices and technology like western science has but it is more a science and art than a religion. Remember that the Hindu religion is really a philosophy. It's the invading Arabs that thought it was a religion (little did they know). :-D We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... --- raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. On 06/23/2012 01:19 AM, salyavin808 wrote: Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). --- Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: Hold on there. Let me guess, you've never even looked at a course on Sanskrit? First off linguists will tell you that many languages have roots in Sanskrit. And you could undoubtedly teach a course on Sanskrit without ever touching any of the religious texts. There are a lot of nouns and verbs very much in common with any modern day language. Yes, you could indeed have a Sanskrit phrase book to ask the way to the beach. And learning Devanagari you could go to India and read a lot of the signs there. Though many of said signs may be both in English and Devanagari sometimes the words are still English words spelled in Devanagari. You can thank the Brits for that. But Hindi is a language that though definitely has roots in Sanskrit has a lot of foreign influences too. It is funny to watch a Bollywood film and all of a sudden they drop into English phrases for things. Sanskrit appears to be an engineered whereas much of our language are degenerated mongrel mixes of several languages. It is more precise in meaning, so much so that some linguists tried using it as an intermediate language for computer programs to translate between different languages. And also I don't consider yoga a religion. It is a science. Oh yeah, there are no fancy devices and technology like western science has but it is more a science and art than a religion. Remember that the Hindu religion is really a philosophy. It's the invading Arabs that thought it was a religion (little did they know). :-D They say that the Finnish language also has an excellent structure. Some say next only to Sanskrit. Could that be used in artificial intelligence as well? I think Cardemeister should know.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. --- sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. L Well, it's not exactly 'Indus valley' practices. The classical puranic religion with it's classical puranic deities came much later. The vedic deities like Agni, Vayu, surya, indra got amalgamated along with the puranic religion later. The 'indus valley civilisation' used a completely unknown dialect that has not yet been decoded. It looks like a proto-dravidian and has some similarities to Sumerian. It's definitely not sanskrit. There is some evidence that proto-sanskrit might have been brought into the sub-continent from central asia. The British used the term Hindus for their administrative convenience.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Actully, there is evidence that reading/hearing/performing poetry and music (what are classical Vedic texts except poetry and music?) have measurable effects on the brain L I'd like to see the research. Do you have links?
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@... wrote: --- raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... --- raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. On 06/23/2012 01:19 AM, salyavin808 wrote: Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). --- Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: Hold on there. Let me guess, you've never even looked at a course on Sanskrit? First off linguists will tell you that many languages have roots in Sanskrit. And you could undoubtedly teach a course on Sanskrit without ever touching any of the religious texts. There are a lot of nouns and verbs very much in common with any modern day language. Yes, you could indeed have a Sanskrit phrase book to ask the way to the beach. And learning Devanagari you could go to India and read a lot of the signs there. Though many of said signs may be both in English and Devanagari sometimes the words are still English words spelled in Devanagari. You can thank the Brits for that. But Hindi is a language that though definitely has roots in Sanskrit has a lot of foreign influences too. It is funny to watch a Bollywood film and all of a sudden they drop into English phrases for things. Sanskrit appears to be an engineered whereas much of our language are degenerated mongrel mixes of several languages. It is more precise in meaning, so much so that some linguists tried using it as an intermediate language for computer programs to translate between different languages. And also I don't consider yoga a religion. It is a science. Oh yeah, there are no fancy devices and technology like western science has but it is more a science and art than a religion. Remember that the Hindu religion is really a philosophy. It's the invading Arabs that thought it was a religion (little did they know). :-D They say that the Finnish language also has an excellent structure. Some say next only to Sanskrit. Could that be used in artificial intelligence as well? I think Cardemeister should know. Card definitely knows more about languages than anyone here. However, in the article I posted, http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4724 the writer clearly demonstrated that Sanskrit was a superior scientific language for developing AI than *any* natural language which would include Finnish. Hey, Card...time to weigh in.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/23/2012 10:00 AM, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 06/23/2012 01:19 AM, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do... Relax, salyavin808. The MSAE kids are just fine. In fact there's quite a lot of evidence that learning a second language increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind. Very ingenious. I'm happy for kids to learn a foreign language but sanskrit unlike, say, french, is going to come somewhat loaded with a metaphysical belief structure isn't it? And it isn't like I could go on holiday anywhere with a sanskrit phrasebook and ask the way to beach, so it isn't even practical apart form purifying the physiology - whatver that might mean (my guess is nothing). Hold on there. Let me guess, you've never even looked at a course on Sanskrit? First off linguists will tell you that many languages have roots in Sanskrit. And you could undoubtedly teach a course on Sanskrit without ever touching any of the religious texts. There are a lot of nouns and verbs very much in common with any modern day language. Yes, you could indeed have a Sanskrit phrase book to ask the way to the beach. I'm sure it's fascinating. My point is that it isn't going to benefit kids anywhere near as much as a european language would, and should be something that adults opt into. I had about 4 years of French which didn't do me that much good on the TTC in France. Of course it was Parisian French and not what they spoke in Vittel and the shop owners in Biarritz spoke English because they had a lot of English tourists. Of course back in the day when I took those French courses they were taught poorly by people who were just Frenchphiles. I learned Sanskrit to read the original texts. But it was a good basis to learn Hindi too which is rather a dumbed down version with words and characters from other languages. Then I picked up a cheap Cosmi CD with 35 language on it for $20. It's sort of a low rent Rosetta stone. I wanted to learn Spanish and that disc is useful. But I can also learned Chinese and other languages off it. And that the TMO will have quite a loaded agenda. And learning Devanagari you could go to India and read a lot of the signs there. Though many of said signs may be both in English and Devanagari sometimes the words are still English words spelled in Devanagari. You can thank the Brits for that. But Hindi is a language that though definitely has roots in Sanskrit has a lot of foreign influences too. It is funny to watch a Bollywood film and all of a sudden they drop into English phrases for things. Sanskrit appears to be an engineered whereas much of our language are degenerated mongrel mixes of several languages. It is more precise in meaning, so much so that some linguists tried using it as an intermediate language for computer programs to translate between different languages. And also I don't consider yoga a religion. It is a science. Oh yeah, there are no fancy devices and technology like western science has but it is more a science and art than a religion. Remember that the Hindu religion is really a philosophy. It's the invading Arabs that thought it was a religion (little did they know). :-D We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! That someone else will have to do because I don't have time for it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
[This post has embedded images in HTML] Indo-European LanguagesCentum and Satem Branches Distribution [Centum and Satem Branches of Indo-European Languages Distribution] Centum Branch [Centum Branch of Indo-European Languages] Satem Branch Note: Sanskrit is considered extinct, in the same way Latin is considered extinct [Satem Branche of Indo-European Languages]
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Sorry but you exhibit a belief in the value of non-belief while devaluing metaphysical belief. Neither proposition is empirically verifiable. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. Hey, who says I don't read stuff like that? I was big on Greek myths and Norse legends once, and even the Brothers Grimm. I just don't see that teaching it as fact is particularly helpful which is what would happen in TM schools with vedic myths. I've been to a TM centre recently, it's all ramayana this and humanphysiology is an expression of ved that. It's fundamentalism by definition. Keep the two strands of thought, science and religion, seperate is what I'm saying. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] We differ in our understanding of terms. Hinduism is a religion to me until someone can demonstrate a sound basis for its esoteric beliefs like karma and reincarnation, neither of which are empirically derived, obviously. Philosophy is also a science, or should be. Consequently I've never even considered that there is even such a thing as eastern philosophy and stick to religion as the best term to sum it up. I await convincing! The Arabs were fine ones to talk. Hinduism is a generic term. Anything that can be based on the Vedic literature could be called Hinduism according to one common definition. Hinduism itself is really just a made up English word coined to describe various and sundry Indus Valley cultural practices and traditions. Whatever, it's all the same to me. It's non scientific in that it doesn't offer useful explanations of the world but metaphysical beliefs that are unnecessary to account for what we see and can't even be tested. That's my definition of religion. Oh salyavin808, you're missing all the fun of myth and magical thinking. Not to worry. Whether it's the Vedic Surya Narayana, the Greek god Apollo or the Biblical Elijah who rode a chariot of fire across the sky, kids can appreciate these stories as metaphor or archetypes in human consciousness without becoming fundies. Hey, who says I don't read stuff like that? I was big on Greek myths and Norse legends once, and even the Brothers Grimm. I just don't see that teaching it as fact is particularly helpful which is what would happen in TM schools with vedic myths. I've been to a TM centre recently, it's all ramayana this and humanphysiology is an expression of ved that. It's fundamentalism by definition. Keep the two strands of thought, science and religion, seperate is what I'm saying. The students at MSAE are smarter than you appear to think. They well know the difference between myth and science. Have you ever met any of these students? Some of them are awesome. Just terrific kids. And they have a lot of success with their science projects. Here's this from the MUM Review just this week. This kind of thing happens here all the time: School Students Earn Top Awards at Science Fairs A sister-and-brother team at Maharishi School won a number of state science competitions and qualified to compete at the national science fair last month. Pearl Sawhney and Surya Sawhney won first place at the Iowa Junior Science and Humanities Symposium in Iowa City; won first place and an Outstanding Achievement award in the Senior Division of the Eastern Iowa Science Engineering Fair in Cedar Rapids; and won first place in the Senior High Team Seminar, first in the Behavior and Social Sciences Category, and semifinalists for the International Science and Engineering Fair at the State Science and Technology Fair of Iowa in Ames. Their project, titled Obesity and Diet: Exploring Solutions for a Healthy Lifestyle, was based on lab experiments simulating human conditions for digesting plant and animal proteins as well as on a survey of people's eating habits and behaviors. The two investigated whether there is a connection between non-vegetarianism and obesity as well as whether non-vegetarians are at a higher risk for overeating and snacking.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
The same is true for the Gayatri mantra, it is longer, and I had very good experiences with it... Buck: Yep, Gayatri It resonates and activates Ved in the subtle system of human physiology, like a tuning fork for the chakra system. Works great employed like a sutra. Are there a lot of Hindu pundits up there in FF that taught you how to chant the Gayatri? We meditate on the Sun god to activate our thoughts! tát savitúr váren.yam. bhárgo devásya dhi-mahi dhíyo yó nah. pracodáya-t http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayatri_Mantra
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha... Maybe so, but there are no bija mantras in the Gayatri. Bhairitu: To be clear on FFL beej mantra refers to the one syllable mantra though to be technically correct that is a beej akshara... You're not even making any sense. Most people don't even understand Sanskrit, bijas or not. It's just like nonsense syllables to most people. What we want to know is why do bija mantras work in meditation. In TM you only get one single bija - that's all you need in order to transcend, right? Beej mantra is also a term for the guru mantra which is much longer. Probably none of the experts the academic cited above interviewed would recommend agni mantras for the public either. Single syllable beejs can be useful for some situations such as to rebalance the body. Longer mantras tend to be more powerful and have a more lasting effect. There are sixteen bija mantras mentioned in the Soundaryalahari. How many bijas do you think a person needs to know in order to get enlightened? According to historians, such as Douglas Renfrew Brooks, the Adi Shankara established the Srividya Tradition of South India, which is based on the practice of meditation that is transcendental via the use of bija mantras and aniconic-mnemonic devices such as the Sri Yantra. All of the Adwaita Acharyas agree with this, including the present Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath, H. H. Sri Vasudenanand Saraswati, himself a TMer. The srividya, because it consists of indestructible seed syllables (bijaksara) rather than words, transcends such mundane considerations as semantic meaning. Accordingly, a bija-only mantra is not merely esoteric but inherently superior. As Fritz Staal has pointed out, the use of apparently meaningless sounds is not unknown in ancient Vedic sources, especially in ritual formulations. Thus Vedic Gayatri is a more explicit mantric reality and hence a lower form of the srividya. According to Srividya, the gayatri gains its esoteric signigicance only when it is interpreted as srividya,. In contrast, the srividya, can be interpreted only esoterically. As one Srividya adept put it: 'Because it is purely seed-syllables [bijasaras] is the purest form of mantra. It does not make a request or praise god, it is God's purest expression. Gayatri is great but it cannot match srividya because it is still in language; it is Veda and mantra but when transformed into the srividya its greatness increases (95). Work cited: Auspicious Wisdon The texts and traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism in South India. by Douglas Renfrew Brooks SUNY 1992
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/22/2012 07:18 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha... Maybe so, but there are no bija mantras in the Gayatri. Bhairitu: To be clear on FFL beej mantra refers to the one syllable mantra though to be technically correct that is a beej akshara... You're not even making any sense. Most people don't even understand Sanskrit, bijas or not. It's just like nonsense syllables to most people. Pay attention. I'm not taking about most people. I'm talking about so-called meditation experts on FFL. And yes most are too lazy to learn some Sanskrit or do their homework. What we want to know is why do bija mantras work in meditation. In TM you only get one single bija - that's all you need in order to transcend, right? Okay, then why advanced techniques? According to you they are not needed. Beej mantras (my transliteration is the way Indian say it) ping the transcendent. MMY had teachers use them because even if someone has little shakti they could still teach someone. They would pave the way to the longer more standard mantra used as an advanced technique. Apparently you are saying that the advanced techniques were just a way of adding more money to the coffers. Beej mantra is also a term for the guru mantra which is much longer. Probably none of the experts the academic cited above interviewed would recommend agni mantras for the public either. Single syllable beejs can be useful for some situations such as to rebalance the body. Longer mantras tend to be more powerful and have a more lasting effect. There are sixteen bija mantras mentioned in the Soundaryalahari. How many bijas do you think a person needs to know in order to get enlightened? Many gurus will tell you that every letter of the Sanskrit alphabet is a beej too. That's a lot more than 16. You're missing what beej aksharas are about though I would think with all your reading you would know. Maybe it's just inconvenient to your argument.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Meditators can easily learn how to pronounce Sanskrit seed sounds (bija) correctly, along with the proper chanting sequence to awaken them. This practice lights up the chakras like a Christmas tree and illuminates the subtle nadi system. $16 for the CD when purchased through American Sanskrit Institute. http://www.americansanskrit.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=amsanskritS\ creen=PRODCategory_Code=CDsProduct_Code=CD-1010 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 06/22/2012 07:18 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha... Maybe so, but there are no bija mantras in the Gayatri. Bhairitu: To be clear on FFL beej mantra refers to the one syllable mantra though to be technically correct that is a beej akshara... You're not even making any sense. Most people don't even understand Sanskrit, bijas or not. It's just like nonsense syllables to most people. Pay attention. I'm not taking about most people. I'm talking about so-called meditation experts on FFL. And yes most are too lazy to learn some Sanskrit or do their homework. What we want to know is why do bija mantras work in meditation. In TM you only get one single bija - that's all you need in order to transcend, right? Okay, then why advanced techniques? According to you they are not needed. Beej mantras (my transliteration is the way Indian say it) ping the transcendent. MMY had teachers use them because even if someone has little shakti they could still teach someone. They would pave the way to the longer more standard mantra used as an advanced technique. Apparently you are saying that the advanced techniques were just a way of adding more money to the coffers. Beej mantra is also a term for the guru mantra which is much longer. Probably none of the experts the academic cited above interviewed would recommend agni mantras for the public either. Single syllable beejs can be useful for some situations such as to rebalance the body. Longer mantras tend to be more powerful and have a more lasting effect. There are sixteen bija mantras mentioned in the Soundaryalahari. How many bijas do you think a person needs to know in order to get enlightened? Many gurus will tell you that every letter of the Sanskrit alphabet is a beej too. That's a lot more than 16. You're missing what beej aksharas are about though I would think with all your reading you would know. Maybe it's just inconvenient to your argument.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Just to follow up: On the American Sanskrit website you will also find CD's with studio recordings of properly pronounced gayatri mantra and the mahamrtunjaya mantra. The temple pandit loved to play these CD's overhead while awaiting the noon and evening yajña-s and puja-s. He praised the clarity, exactness and fidelity of the recitations. All of it is designed for you to learn and recite the recitation yourself. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: Meditators can easily learn how to pronounce Sanskrit seed sounds (bija) correctly, along with the proper chanting sequence to awaken them. This practice lights up the chakras like a Christmas tree and illuminates the subtle nadi system. $16 for the CD when purchased through American Sanskrit Institute. http://www.americansanskrit.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=amsanskritS\ \ creen=PRODCategory_Code=CDsProduct_Code=CD-1010 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 06/22/2012 07:18 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha... Maybe so, but there are no bija mantras in the Gayatri. Bhairitu: To be clear on FFL beej mantra refers to the one syllable mantra though to be technically correct that is a beej akshara... You're not even making any sense. Most people don't even understand Sanskrit, bijas or not. It's just like nonsense syllables to most people. Pay attention. I'm not taking about most people. I'm talking about so-called meditation experts on FFL. And yes most are too lazy to learn some Sanskrit or do their homework. What we want to know is why do bija mantras work in meditation. In TM you only get one single bija - that's all you need in order to transcend, right? Okay, then why advanced techniques? According to you they are not needed. Beej mantras (my transliteration is the way Indian say it) ping the transcendent. MMY had teachers use them because even if someone has little shakti they could still teach someone. They would pave the way to the longer more standard mantra used as an advanced technique. Apparently you are saying that the advanced techniques were just a way of adding more money to the coffers. Beej mantra is also a term for the guru mantra which is much longer. Probably none of the experts the academic cited above interviewed would recommend agni mantras for the public either. Single syllable beejs can be useful for some situations such as to rebalance the body. Longer mantras tend to be more powerful and have a more lasting effect. There are sixteen bija mantras mentioned in the Soundaryalahari. How many bijas do you think a person needs to know in order to get enlightened? Many gurus will tell you that every letter of the Sanskrit alphabet is a beej too. That's a lot more than 16. You're missing what beej aksharas are about though I would think with all your reading you would know. Maybe it's just inconvenient to your argument.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
I'll vouch for these as I bought their whole course. Vyas Houston has an easy to memorize little sing-song that helps you learn the Sanskrit alphabet. I also bought several of the CDs including the Gayatri one and that is how I learned it. They also used to do weekend courses where in 2 days you learned the Sanskrit alphabet. You'd think if people here were really serious about this stuff they'd make an effort to learn. Fortunately a few do. On 06/22/2012 02:52 PM, emptybill wrote: Just to follow up: On the American Sanskrit website you will also find CD's with studio recordings of properly pronounced gayatri mantra and the mahamrtunjaya mantra. The temple pandit loved to play these CD's overhead while awaiting the noon and evening yajña-s and puja-s. He praised the clarity, exactness and fidelity of the recitations. All of it is designed for you to learn and recite the recitation yourself. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybillemptybill@... wrote: Meditators can easily learn how to pronounce Sanskrit seed sounds (bija) correctly, along with the proper chanting sequence to awaken them. This practice lights up the chakras like a Christmas tree and illuminates the subtle nadi system. $16 for the CD when purchased through American Sanskrit Institute. http://www.americansanskrit.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=amsanskritS\ \ creen=PRODCategory_Code=CDsProduct_Code=CD-1010 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 06/22/2012 07:18 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha... Maybe so, but there are no bija mantras in the Gayatri. Bhairitu: To be clear on FFL beej mantra refers to the one syllable mantra though to be technically correct that is a beej akshara... You're not even making any sense. Most people don't even understand Sanskrit, bijas or not. It's just like nonsense syllables to most people. Pay attention. I'm not taking about most people. I'm talking about so-called meditation experts on FFL. And yes most are too lazy to learn some Sanskrit or do their homework. What we want to know is why do bija mantras work in meditation. In TM you only get one single bija - that's all you need in order to transcend, right? Okay, then why advanced techniques? According to you they are not needed. Beej mantras (my transliteration is the way Indian say it) ping the transcendent. MMY had teachers use them because even if someone has little shakti they could still teach someone. They would pave the way to the longer more standard mantra used as an advanced technique. Apparently you are saying that the advanced techniques were just a way of adding more money to the coffers. Beej mantra is also a term for the guru mantra which is much longer. Probably none of the experts the academic cited above interviewed would recommend agni mantras for the public either. Single syllable beejs can be useful for some situations such as to rebalance the body. Longer mantras tend to be more powerful and have a more lasting effect. There are sixteen bija mantras mentioned in the Soundaryalahari. How many bijas do you think a person needs to know in order to get enlightened? Many gurus will tell you that every letter of the Sanskrit alphabet is a beej too. That's a lot more than 16. You're missing what beej aksharas are about though I would think with all your reading you would know. Maybe it's just inconvenient to your argument.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: I'll vouch for these as I bought their whole course. Vyas Houston has an easy to memorize little sing-song that helps you learn the Sanskrit alphabet. I also bought several of the CDs including the Gayatri one and that is how I learned it. They also used to do weekend courses where in 2 days you learned the Sanskrit alphabet. You'd think if people here were really serious about this stuff they'd make an effort to learn. Fortunately a few do. Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ On 06/22/2012 02:52 PM, emptybill wrote: Just to follow up: On the American Sanskrit website you will also find CD's with studio recordings of properly pronounced gayatri mantra and the mahamrtunjaya mantra. The temple pandit loved to play these CD's overhead while awaiting the noon and evening yajña-s and puja-s. He praised the clarity, exactness and fidelity of the recitations. All of it is designed for you to learn and recite the recitation yourself. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybillemptybill@ wrote: Meditators can easily learn how to pronounce Sanskrit seed sounds (bija) correctly, along with the proper chanting sequence to awaken them. This practice lights up the chakras like a Christmas tree and illuminates the subtle nadi system. $16 for the CD when purchased through American Sanskrit Institute. http://www.americansanskrit.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=amsanskritS\ \ creen=PRODCategory_Code=CDsProduct_Code=CD-1010 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 06/22/2012 07:18 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha... Maybe so, but there are no bija mantras in the Gayatri. Bhairitu: To be clear on FFL beej mantra refers to the one syllable mantra though to be technically correct that is a beej akshara... You're not even making any sense. Most people don't even understand Sanskrit, bijas or not. It's just like nonsense syllables to most people. Pay attention. I'm not taking about most people. I'm talking about so-called meditation experts on FFL. And yes most are too lazy to learn some Sanskrit or do their homework. What we want to know is why do bija mantras work in meditation. In TM you only get one single bija - that's all you need in order to transcend, right? Okay, then why advanced techniques? According to you they are not needed. Beej mantras (my transliteration is the way Indian say it) ping the transcendent. MMY had teachers use them because even if someone has little shakti they could still teach someone. They would pave the way to the longer more standard mantra used as an advanced technique. Apparently you are saying that the advanced techniques were just a way of adding more money to the coffers. Beej mantra is also a term for the guru mantra which is much longer. Probably none of the experts the academic cited above interviewed would recommend agni mantras for the public either. Single syllable beejs can be useful for some situations such as to rebalance the body. Longer mantras tend to be more powerful and have a more lasting effect. There are sixteen bija mantras mentioned in the Soundaryalahari. How many bijas do you think a person needs to know in order to get enlightened? Many gurus will tell you that every letter of the Sanskrit alphabet is a beej too. That's a lot more than 16. You're missing what beej aksharas are about though I would think with all your reading you would know. Maybe it's just inconvenient to your argument.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: Folks at MSAE take it seriously. Kids Kindergarten to 12 grade learn Sanskrit. http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/our-approach/vedic-science/sanskrit/ A fine argument for banning religious education. Apart from the TMO contention that sanskrit creates orderliness and balance in the brain physiology, expands the memory, and purifies the physiology. what possible use is it going to be other than in creating the next generation of suckers to support the yagya programme? Can we at least get a bit of evidence that the physiology is purified and the memory expanded before childrens minds are filled with dogma and their time wasted when they could be learning something that might actually come in useful? They'll be teaching them astrology next! Oh, they already do...
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. A friend gave me a small card that Muktananda had zapped with that mantra printed on it. That's basically what his school (Kashmiri Shaivism) taught. It worked very well. I learned a guru mantra from my tantra teacher as well as how to charge a mantra and teach someone using shaktipat. I agree with Bhairitu here. I think longer mantras, like the traditional mantras, are better unless one is a beginner. I think that is why there always was a certain emphasis in TM to take so-called advanced techniques, they are just longer, more complete mantras. Besides that, I agree that 'Shri' is just a substitution for 'OM', and the only reason why it is not used in TM is orthodoxy, that is to say caste considerations. There are other traditions that use similar distinctions, but they are very few. The same is true for the Gayatri mantra, it is longer, and I had very good experiences with it. (I don't use the Gayatri now, but an equally long mantra, IF I use a mantra at all.)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/21/2012 05:11 AM, iranitea wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. A friend gave me a small card that Muktananda had zapped with that mantra printed on it. That's basically what his school (Kashmiri Shaivism) taught. It worked very well. I learned a guru mantra from my tantra teacher as well as how to charge a mantra and teach someone using shaktipat. I agree with Bhairitu here. I think longer mantras, like the traditional mantras, are better unless one is a beginner. I think that is why there always was a certain emphasis in TM to take so-called advanced techniques, they are just longer, more complete mantras. Besides that, I agree that 'Shri' is just a substitution for 'OM', and the only reason why it is not used in TM is orthodoxy, that is to say caste considerations. There are other traditions that use similar distinctions, but they are very few. The same is true for the Gayatri mantra, it is longer, and I had very good experiences with it. (I don't use the Gayatri now, but an equally long mantra, IF I use a mantra at all.) Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha. It has some heating qualities. Mantras have ayurvedic properties and can be used that way. The concern of some gurus is that giving the public agni mantras for general use is not good because of their heating qualities. Maybe more a concern in the hot climate of India than in cooler western countries. There of course is the problem if an agni mantra is giving to someone say who has pitta or vata imbalance the results might not be very pleasant.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. iranitea: I agree with Bhairitu here... In TM, you get only one bija mantra. Apparently it is not necessary to recieve a mantra from a guru. Through many simple repetitions one can achieve what is called the 'mantra siddhi' - they have attained power and proficiency with the mantra. Sanskrit mantras are your spiritual birthright since they are directly linked to the chakras. They will work even if you read them from a book and begin practice. http://tinyurl.com/cvk8hgm
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Bhairitu: Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha... Maybe so, but there are no bija mantras in the Gayatri. According to historians, such as Douglas Renfrew Brooks, the Adi Shankara established the Srividya Tradition of South India, which is based on the practice of meditation that is transcendental via the use of bija mantras and aniconic-mnemonic devices such as the Sri Yantra. All of the Adwaita Acharyas agree with this, including the present Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath, H. H. Sri Vasudenanand Saraswati, himself a TMer. The srividya, because it consists of indestructible seed syllables (bijaksara) rather than words, transcends such mundane considerations as semantic meaning. Accordingly, a bija-only mantra is not merely esoteric but inherently superior. As Fritz Staal has pointed out, the use of apparently meaningless sounds is not unknown in ancient Vedic sources, especially in ritual formulations. Thus Vedic Gayatri is a more explicit mantric reality and hence a lower form of the srividya. According to Srividya, the gayatri gains its esoteric signigicance only when it is interpreted as srividya,. In contrast, the srividya, can be interpreted only esoterically. As one Srividya adept put it: 'Because it is purely seed-syllables [bijasaras] is the purest form of mantra. It does not make a request or praise god, it is God's purest expression. Gayatri is great but it cannot match srividya because it is still in language; it is Veda and mantra but when transformed into the srividya its greatness increases (95). Work cited: Auspicious Wisdon The texts and traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism in South India. by Douglas Renfrew Brooks SUNY 1992
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/21/2012 10:56 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Bhairitu: Gayatri is a good mantra for pacifying kapha... Maybe so, but there are no bija mantras in the Gayatri. According to historians, such as Douglas Renfrew Brooks, the Adi Shankara established the Srividya Tradition of South India, which is based on the practice of meditation that is transcendental via the use of bija mantras and aniconic-mnemonic devices such as the Sri Yantra. All of the Adwaita Acharyas agree with this, including the present Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath, H. H. Sri Vasudenanand Saraswati, himself a TMer. The srividya, because it consists of indestructible seed syllables (bijaksara) rather than words, transcends such mundane considerations as semantic meaning. Accordingly, a bija-only mantra is not merely esoteric but inherently superior. As Fritz Staal has pointed out, the use of apparently meaningless sounds is not unknown in ancient Vedic sources, especially in ritual formulations. Thus Vedic Gayatri is a more explicit mantric reality and hence a lower form of the srividya. According to Srividya, the gayatri gains its esoteric signigicance only when it is interpreted as srividya,. In contrast, the srividya, can be interpreted only esoterically. As one Srividya adept put it: 'Because it is purely seed-syllables [bijasaras] is the purest form of mantra. It does not make a request or praise god, it is God's purest expression. Gayatri is great but it cannot match srividya because it is still in language; it is Veda and mantra but when transformed into the srividya its greatness increases (95). Work cited: Auspicious Wisdon The texts and traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism in South India. by Douglas Renfrew Brooks SUNY 1992 To be clear on FFL beej mantra refers to the one syllable mantra though to be technically correct that is a beej akshara. Beej mantra is also a term for the guru mantra which is much longer. Probably none of the experts the academic cited above interviewed would recommend agni mantras for the public either. Single syllable beejs can be useful for some situations such as to rebalance the body. Longer mantras tend to be more powerful and have a more lasting effect.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. A friend gave me a small card that Muktananda had zapped with that mantra printed on it. That's basically what his school (Kashmiri Shaivism) taught. It worked very well. I learned a guru mantra from my tantra teacher as well as how to charge a mantra and teach someone using shaktipat. I agree with Bhairitu here. I think longer mantras, like the traditional mantras, are better unless one is a beginner. I think that is why there always was a certain emphasis in TM to take so-called advanced techniques, they are just longer, more complete mantras. Besides that, I agree that 'Shri' is just a substitution for 'OM', and the only reason why it is not used in TM is orthodoxy, that is to say caste considerations. There are other traditions that use similar distinctions, but they are very few. The same is true for the Gayatri mantra, it is longer, and I had very good experiences with it. (I don't use the Gayatri now, but an equally long mantra, IF I use a mantra at all.) Yep, Gayatri It resonates and activates Ved in the subtle system of human physiology, like a tuning fork for the chakra system. Works great employed like a sutra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
There is a name I love to hear I love to sing its word; It sounds like music to mine ear, The sweetest name on earth. It bids my trembling soul rejoice, And dries each rising tear, It tells me in a small still voice To trust and not to fear. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. A friend gave me a small card that Muktananda had zapped with that mantra printed on it. That's basically what his school (Kashmiri Shaivism) taught. It worked very well. I learned a guru mantra from my tantra teacher as well as how to charge a mantra and teach someone using shaktipat. I agree with Bhairitu here. I think longer mantras, like the traditional mantras, are better unless one is a beginner. I think that is why there always was a certain emphasis in TM to take so-called advanced techniques, they are just longer, more complete mantras. Besides that, I agree that 'Shri' is just a substitution for 'OM', and the only reason why it is not used in TM is orthodoxy, that is to say caste considerations. There are other traditions that use similar distinctions, but they are very few. The same is true for the Gayatri mantra, it is longer, and I had very good experiences with it. (I don't use the Gayatri now, but an equally long mantra, IF I use a mantra at all.) Yep, Gayatri It resonates and activates Ved in the subtle system of human physiology, like a tuning fork for the chakra system. Works great employed like a sutra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
stevelf, This is really a substantial thread about Fairfield. A tip of an iceberg about Fairfield and the meditation. This kind of question gets talked about all the time in the Fairfield coffee shop satsangs. People do figure it out for themselves with a little help, and a lot of people obviously have just gone on without. There is some good practical advice given here. Usually these are 'private conversations' separate from real TB'ers but it is nice that FFL can serve this use too. There is a lot of collective experience with this in Fairfield. Nearly 40 years. Good post, -Buck in the Dome http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/312419 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: I am an MIU grad, executive governor, 40-year TMeditator with a personal mantra dilemna and am in need of some help. Thank you for reading the following. It's a bit convoluted and redundant, but only because I am striving for clarity... My brief mantra history: I was initiated (for $45.) in 1972 at Goddard College in Plainfield, Vermont. A year Iater I was on TTC in Engelberg, Suisse. Then on my 6-month course in 1976 I received my 1st advanced technique from Maharishi. Two years later I received my 2nd a.t. from Lillian (quickest-puja-in-the-world) Rosen at MIU. When I received all the TM teaching mantras from Maharishi at the end of TTC from Maharishi directly, I was surprired to see that my 1st mantra I received from my initiator was different from any M. gave me. When M. gave me my first a.t. in '76, all was remedied because what he gave me I found delightful, smooth-sailing, easy. comfortable, a good fit, etc., and the core bija sound of the mantra matched what he (Maharishi) had imparted in the group of mantras he (Maharishi) had imparted to me at the end of TTC. But then when Lillian gave me my 2nd technique, again the pronunciation of her bestowed to me seed mantra was different from the group of teaching seed mantras Maharishi gave me to teach with. I know that different teachers, male and female, were given slightly different mantras, also depending on what year they were made initiators. Here is my specific dilemna: having seen online the mantra charts for advanced techniques on several websites over the years, I see the correct spelling of my seed 2nd tecnique mantra that Lillian gave me... but her pronunciation of it is quite different (as I said above) from the group of mantras Maharishi gave me to impart when teaching. Advanced technique mantras are longer, of course, but it's the seed part I am referring to. My subjective feeling is I never liked what Lillian gave me (as an aside, nor her demeanor). The pronunciation somehow seems wrong or contrived, not sleek and smooth. I really have no way to have my present advanced technique mantra checked other than looking online. I could, and have a bit, experiment with the pronunciation to match what I received from Maharishi, but there-in lies my dilemna... I could, but am hesitant to, make up my own mantra. to reiterate: this ( wrong?? ) mantra I have been using for so many years seems flat, contrived, boring, etc.. And I have stopped meditating regularly because of this. The old vibrant vitality in my meditation practice is just not there any more (again, incorrect mantra ?? ). Same with the sidhis that I practiced for so many years-- at a certain point my inner feeling was that practicing them felt like an inner imposition, a contrived prison of obligatory practice that I kept perpetuating, and FOR WHOM was I doing this ? I stopped the sidhis because I felt they were not constructive, life-supporting, energetic, fun, vibrant, etc. I really only did them forever out of a sense of deference to Maharishi's (great seer's) direction... BTW, the Age of Enlightenment technique I received personally from Maharishi on my first 6-month course ( pre-sidhis ) I do find very profound and amazing. . So, thank you for reading ! Please be kind and constructive as I am very sincere in my posting this. I have lurked for several years here and have occasionally posted. I would really like to see all the disparity I have witnessed here coalesce into a positive channel to help me with my spiritual dilemna, putting this website to good use. THANK YOU...
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Thanks, Doug-- I appreciate your reply. I have gleaned some very useful information from everyone's replies and have been enjoying meditation again. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: stevelf, This is really a substantial thread about Fairfield. A tip of an iceberg about Fairfield and the meditation. This kind of question gets talked about all the time in the Fairfield coffee shop satsangs. People do figure it out for themselves with a little help, and a lot of people obviously have just gone on without. There is some good practical advice given here. Usually these are 'private conversations' separate from real TB'ers but it is nice that FFL can serve this use too. There is a lot of collective experience with this in Fairfield. Nearly 40 years. Good post, -Buck in the Dome http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/312419 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@ wrote: I am an MIU grad, executive governor, 40-year TMeditator with a personal mantra dilemna and am in need of some help. Thank you for reading the following. It's a bit convoluted and redundant, but only because I am striving for clarity... My brief mantra history: I was initiated (for $45.) in 1972 at Goddard College in Plainfield, Vermont. A year Iater I was on TTC in Engelberg, Suisse. Then on my 6-month course in 1976 I received my 1st advanced technique from Maharishi. Two years later I received my 2nd a.t. from Lillian (quickest-puja-in-the-world) Rosen at MIU. When I received all the TM teaching mantras from Maharishi at the end of TTC from Maharishi directly, I was surprired to see that my 1st mantra I received from my initiator was different from any M. gave me. When M. gave me my first a.t. in '76, all was remedied because what he gave me I found delightful, smooth-sailing, easy. comfortable, a good fit, etc., and the core bija sound of the mantra matched what he (Maharishi) had imparted in the group of mantras he (Maharishi) had imparted to me at the end of TTC. But then when Lillian gave me my 2nd technique, again the pronunciation of her bestowed to me seed mantra was different from the group of teaching seed mantras Maharishi gave me to teach with. I know that different teachers, male and female, were given slightly different mantras, also depending on what year they were made initiators. Here is my specific dilemna: having seen online the mantra charts for advanced techniques on several websites over the years, I see the correct spelling of my seed 2nd tecnique mantra that Lillian gave me... but her pronunciation of it is quite different (as I said above) from the group of mantras Maharishi gave me to impart when teaching. Advanced technique mantras are longer, of course, but it's the seed part I am referring to. My subjective feeling is I never liked what Lillian gave me (as an aside, nor her demeanor). The pronunciation somehow seems wrong or contrived, not sleek and smooth. I really have no way to have my present advanced technique mantra checked other than looking online. I could, and have a bit, experiment with the pronunciation to match what I received from Maharishi, but there-in lies my dilemna... I could, but am hesitant to, make up my own mantra. to reiterate: this ( wrong?? ) mantra I have been using for so many years seems flat, contrived, boring, etc.. And I have stopped meditating regularly because of this. The old vibrant vitality in my meditation practice is just not there any more (again, incorrect mantra ?? ). Same with the sidhis that I practiced for so many years-- at a certain point my inner feeling was that practicing them felt like an inner imposition, a contrived prison of obligatory practice that I kept perpetuating, and FOR WHOM was I doing this ? I stopped the sidhis because I felt they were not constructive, life-supporting, energetic, fun, vibrant, etc. I really only did them forever out of a sense of deference to Maharishi's (great seer's) direction... BTW, the Age of Enlightenment technique I received personally from Maharishi on my first 6-month course ( pre-sidhis ) I do find very profound and amazing. . So, thank you for reading ! Please be kind and constructive as I am very sincere in my posting this. I have lurked for several years here and have occasionally posted. I would really like to see all the disparity I have witnessed here coalesce into a positive channel to help me with my spiritual dilemna, putting this website to good use. THANK YOU...
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: Thanks, Doug-- I appreciate your reply. I have gleaned some very useful information from everyone's replies and have been enjoying meditation again. Very good, bless your heart !
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
(not a reply to anyone particularly) I think for many people it might be impossible to pronounce several of the biija mantras, without some effort, exactly as in Sanskrit, even inside their head. That might apply especially to those mantras that have sounds like trilled 'r' in them. Youse might be able to test that claim for instance by going to translate.google.com ... and writing, say, 'he ring' in the box, or whatevah, and then clicking on the loudspeaker icon on the bottom right corner, choosing different languages. For instance, in Spanish the r-sound is very strongly trilled but they might have to struggle a bit to pronounce an h-sound, so 'he ring' in Spanish soudns to me more like 'ee rrring'. In Hindi 'he ring' sounds to me almost like 'hi rink', a bit like Sir Paul McCartney pronounces, say, 'thing' [~~think, or thing-g].
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Wow, thank you for this story. fun to think of Goddard as leading to TM. I remember the campus as somewhat stark and of course Plainfield a VERY small town, even smaller than Fairfield. We are living in amazing times. But then again, maybe all times are amazing (-: From: stevelf ysoy1...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:38 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested... Goddard College was a unique experience, indeed... I learned about furniture making, inner psychic space (name of a course I took...), Herman Hesse, throwing frisbee, co-ed bathrooms, free love, Mr. Natural blotter acid, shooting pool, the I-Ching, Ram Dass, sweat lodges. Then one day I saw on campus a poster for something called transcendental meditation (no capital letters), and attended a lecture by John Lacy. When I innocently asked him how these mantras were selected he stopped, gazed wistfully upwards and said, I studied many months with Maharishi to acquire this talent, and there is no way I could answer you so quickly now One month later I was due for what Goddard called a NRT-- Non-Resident Trimester, and with help from Toby Fineblum, a sweet, silently-charismatic TM devotee, I was off to Aminona, Switzerland for some course called The Science of Creative Intelligence, and after that, I extended to take a Teacher Training Course in the meditation itself(can you imagine the letters my parents received?). Needless to say my hard-packs of Marlboro and penchant for psychedelics and daily cannabis smoking passed by the wayside (yes, thankfully...). Brings to mind the very first time I saw dear Maharishi the first time... It was on TTC, which was being taught by the two wonderful musicians from The Natural Tendency Rick Stanley and Paul (thank you, Google...) Fauerso. Wonderful men. There was an elevator and I had pressed the up button to head in that direction.The door opened and the electrons just started silently popping as a noticeably small white-sari-clad-Maharishi gazed softly and directly into my eyes epitomizing the definition of a word I didn't even know existed==Shakti==in a tender moment I, clearly, will never forget --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: The summer before my senior year inn high school, I traveled to Plainfield and checked out Goddard. Coming from an all girls Catholic school, I was definitely NOT Goddard material (-:
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@ wrote: my comments in between below Ones you probably should have read up on or met people who practiced them. :-D You are absolutely right... and THAT I certainly have (to the best of my ability...) over my 58 years and travelling around this beautiful world over ten times by off-road mountain bike .mostly through SE Asia Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? That is so cute and I mean that in a loving way My practice for SO many years was what MMY recommended after my AEGTC (Age of Enlightenment Governor Training Course...). I am open to getting in the domes again so I will not enumerate my spiritual endeavors here and now. I would think that any honest and sincere person would at least keep to the practices taught by MMY and the TMO when practicing in the dome. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
my message to Lawson below... Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? That is so cute and I mean that in a loving way My practice for SO many years was what MMY recommended after my AEGTC (Age of Enlightenment Governor Training Course...). I am open to getting in the domes again so I will not enumerate my spiritual endeavors here and now. I would think that any honest and sincere person would at least keep to the practices taught by MMY and the TMO when practicing in the dome. L. My point above is that I have observed many spiritual practices over the years and around the world-- MY personal practice has always been , and the word always includes in the domes, what I learned from my spiritual teacher, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Lawson, you are barking up the wrong tree here=== first you insinuated I might be a troll (not a particularly nice welcome to FFL BTW and a rather farfetched possibility considering my informed post-do you have a lot of trolls in your life...? ). Now it seems you are doubting my honesty and my sincerity I apologize for how I communicated that allowed you to slip into that possible perception of me. Upon re-reading this portion of the thread, I can see how you could have arrived where you did, though...So it goes. Methinks you are off-topic, anyway. I continue to be deeply appreciative of the constructive replies in this thread that I started...
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Well, OK, rightyo, Lawson-- but I am not referring in this thread to how the mantra may change in pronunciation spontaneously DURING THE PRACTICE. I am obviously referring to the INITIAL mantra pronunciation I received at the time of initiation from Lillian. One certainly wants to gently begin the TM practice with the correct pronunciation and then effortlessly, innocently go from there, yes? Otherwise, one might as well, according to you, just follow Herbert Benson's advice. Is that what you do...? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Jeeze louise. This, assuming you are not a troll, fully illustrates my observation that a TM teacher can teach TM properly without ever getting it him or her self. If you can't remember, or at least consciously assimilate, what you are instructed say to meditators about this situation, then go and get checked by an active teacher and let them tell you verbally. L. Jeeze louise, right back at ya, Lawson... there is not much about me that resembles a troll, but I will look into my soul and consider it. Thank you.That troll you referred to would have to be pretty well informed to provide the info that I did in my post, dontchathink...?? A meditator would presumably never know there exists discrepencies in the same TM mantra pronunciations, or, maybe you did not get my post, which BTW surprises me because you seem one of the more astute members here IMHO. But I thank you for your response and advice . Well, the fact that you are hung up on pronunciation of the mantra (or any other aspect of an advanced technique) during meditation suggests to me that you don't get TM, no matter how many times you have taught or checked a person. Whatever is easy. Remember? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 06/17/2012 06:43 PM, stevelf wrote: my comments below I had confusion over my advanced technique too which MMY gave me on TTC but so did about 1/2 the plane of folks returning from TTC. Many could either not remember at all or not remember clearly. A few years later I just learned something else and have been happy ever since. BTW, I wrote MMY twice for a mantra check but never heard back. Learning something else is not that big a deal since many other paths have mantras for the public that are as strong as the advanced technique (yes it is those paths first technique). I am curious what specific other paths you are referring to. The curious thing about advanced techniques is that (according to what I have seen on some websites) the difference between the advanced techniques is pretty minimal-- just some added shri's and namah's in different #'s with the same core bija mantra in between... hold on, I think some lightning just hit my house how strange, there's not a cloud in the sky.. Ones you probably should have read up on or met people who practiced them. :-D Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? The advanced technique is just a Saraswati mantra. I even had a professor of astrology at Benares Hindu University recommend the same mantra to me after he looked at my horoscope. Some people might do better with a Shiva mantra and others with a mantra for Ram. There are lots of mantras. Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. Kinda proves that an accurate pronunciation is not very important. I think a more correct spelling would be om namaH shivaaya (prolly pronounced by most something like 'awm namash shivaaya'). The form 'shivaaya' is the dative singular, 'to/for shiva'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVi5NeY3veM (BTW, never before noticed that most Shivas have a hair colour that's kinda Russian, or Siberian, i.e. , not black...LOL!)
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 06/17/2012 06:43 PM, stevelf wrote: my comments below I had confusion over my advanced technique too which MMY gave me on TTC but so did about 1/2 the plane of folks returning from TTC. Many could either not remember at all or not remember clearly. A few years later I just learned something else and have been happy ever since. BTW, I wrote MMY twice for a mantra check but never heard back. Learning something else is not that big a deal since many other paths have mantras for the public that are as strong as the advanced technique (yes it is those paths first technique). I am curious what specific other paths you are referring to. The curious thing about advanced techniques is that (according to what I have seen on some websites) the difference between the advanced techniques is pretty minimal-- just some added shri's and namah's in different #'s with the same core bija mantra in between... hold on, I think some lightning just hit my house how strange, there's not a cloud in the sky.. Ones you probably should have read up on or met people who practiced them. :-D Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? The advanced technique is just a Saraswati mantra. I even had a professor of astrology at Benares Hindu University recommend the same mantra to me after he looked at my horoscope. Some people might do better with a Shiva mantra and others with a mantra for Ram. There are lots of mantras. Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. Kinda proves that an accurate pronunciation is not very important. I think a more correct spelling would be om namaH shivaaya (prolly pronounced by most something like 'awm namash shivaaya'). The form 'shivaaya' is the dative singular, 'to/for shiva'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVi5NeY3veM (BTW, never before noticed that most Shivas have a hair colour that's kinda Russian, or Siberian, i.e. , not black...LOL!) http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=russian+hair+colourview=detailid=E6709588D45494B39487E3CB70B214388B80052Efirst=151FORM=IDFRIR
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: Here is my specific dilemna: having seen online the mantra charts This is a mistake. Never trust anything you find online regarding instructions. One never knows WHY som people post these things. They could be right or wrong. No need to expose oneselves for these uncertanties. I really have no way to have my present advanced technique mantra checked other than looking online. Yes you do. There are plenty of advanced-techniques teachers in the USA and indians regularily travel to give and check advanced techniques all over the world. I've had a couple of such checkings myself and they were always for free.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Well, the fact that you are hung up on pronunciation of the mantra (or any other aspect of an advanced technique) during meditation suggests to me that you don't get TM, no matter how many times you have taught or checked a person. Whatever is easy. Remember? Exactly. Just let go and everything will be fine. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: Well, OK, rightyo, Lawson-- but I am not referring in this thread to how the mantra may change in pronunciation spontaneously DURING THE PRACTICE. I am obviously referring to the INITIAL mantra pronunciation I received at the time of initiation from Lillian. One certainly wants to gently begin the TM practice with the correct pronunciation and then effortlessly, innocently go from there, yes? Otherwise, one might as well, according to you, just follow Herbert Benson's advice. Is that what you do...? Oh really? You obsess over the pronunciation of your mantra every time you start meditating? I can't even remember how to pronounce my mantra without some moments of thought, so I'm supposed to take 5-10 minutes of exploring pronunciations until I find the one that feels right? And... how is does this obsession about your mantra jive with the just the right start that can occur when your mantra spontaneously appears during the 30 seconds with the eyes closed? Do you go: oh no! that's not right! I gotta stop thinking that 'wrong mantra' and think my REAL mantra! As I have said many times: the fact that TM teachers often don't understand TM themselves, doesn't prevent them from teaching TM, as long as they follow the instructions they were given during TTC. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Steve, as re the forgive, love, thank mantra, that was ShareLong's contribution, o'oponopono. Thank you for the kind words, regardless. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: my comments in between yours below... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: Lilian Rosen was a character. I know of one TM teacher who went to her for an advanced technique. When she asked him what his mantra was, and he told her, she exploded, saying that was impossible, he could not have learned that yet. Well, it turned out that MMY himself had given this teacher that very mantra she yelled about. The teacher walked out.. refusing to have anything to dow ith learning anything from Lilian. I'm not sure if Lillian had learned much about humility- but what do I know.. But getting to your problem: I am not sure what to suggest, since I am not exactly sure I follow your description of the problem. I know upon re-reading it is a bit confusing sorry... :) ! But you could write to Tony Nader and ask what he suggests. It might even mean talking with one of the current advanced technique teachers (hopefully no fee would be charged). You might get an answer. If you get no response, I would say that if you think you know the exact seed mantra you are to be using and it is merely a question of pronunciation, then go with MMY's pronunciation, not Lilian's. MMY's pronunciation as you were told on TTC and also his pronunciation from when he himself initiated you or gave you your own list of mantras. I too got initiated by MMY for my 2nd technique and loved that mantra and experiences. Yes--- WOW! How sweet that was for me, too But following the dangling carrot one ( I...) always thought it could be better.. Now I can look back and laugh laugh laugh at my sweet self for going for MORE... Was it Marek who suggested the I'm sorry-- I forgive you--Thank you-- I love you process ? I love putting one hand on my heart and one facing outward and saying that over-and-over, softly TO MYSELF Thank you, if that was you, Sir Marek. wherever you are... And Thank You, Susan, for your writing in response to me... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 06/17/2012 01:04 PM, stevelf wrote: I am an MIU grad, executive governor, 40-year TMeditator with a personal mantra dilemna and am in need of some help. Thank you for reading the following. It's a bit convoluted and redundant, but only because I am striving for clarity... My brief mantra history: I was initiated (for $45.) in 1972 at Goddard College in Plainfield, Vermont. A year Iater I was on TTC in Engelberg, Suisse. Then on my 6-month course in 1976 I received my 1st advanced technique from Maharishi. Two years later I received my 2nd a.t. from Lillian (quickest-puja-in-the-world) Rosen at MIU. When I received all the TM teaching mantras from Maharishi at the end of TTC from Maharishi directly, I was surprired to see that my 1st mantra I received from my initiator was different from any M. gave me. When M. gave me my first a.t. in '76, all was remedied because what he gave me I found delightful, smooth-sailing, easy. comfortable, a good fit, etc., and the core bija sound of the mantra matched what he (Maharishi) had imparted in the group of mantras he (Maharishi) had imparted to me at the end of TTC. But then when Lillian gave me my 2nd technique, again the pronunciation of her bestowed to me seed mantra was different from the group of teaching seed mantras Maharishi gave me to teach with. I know that different teachers, male and female, were given slightly different mantras, also depending on what year they were made initiators. Here is my specific dilemna: having seen online the mantra charts for advanced techniques on several websites over the years, I see the correct spelling of my seed 2nd tecnique mantra that Lillian gave me... but her pronunciation of it is quite different (as I said above) from the group of mantras Maharishi gave me to impart when teaching. Advanced technique mantras are longer, of course, but it's the seed part I am referring to. My subjective feeling is I never liked what Lillian gave me (as an aside, nor her demeanor). The pronunciation somehow seems wrong or contrived, not sleek and smooth. I really have no way to have my present advanced technique mantra checked other than looking online. I could, and have a bit, experiment with the pronunciation to match what I received from Maharishi, but there-in lies my dilemna... I could, but am hesitant to, make up my own mantra. to reiterate: this (
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Hi Steve, Ho'oponopono, from the Hawaiian Kahuna tradition. Can google very cool story of Dr. Hew Len's work in ward for criminally insane. I'm sorry Please forgive me Thank you I love you Share From: marekreavis reavisma...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 6:52 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested... Steve, as re the forgive, love, thank mantra, that was ShareLong's contribution, o'oponopono. Thank you for the kind words, regardless. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: my comments in between yours below... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: Lilian Rosen was a character. I know of one TM teacher who went to her for an advanced technique. When she asked him what his mantra was, and he told her, she exploded, saying that was impossible, he could not have learned that yet. Well, it turned out that MMY himself had given this teacher that very mantra she yelled about. The teacher walked out.. refusing to have anything to dow ith learning anything from Lilian. I'm not sure if Lillian had learned much about humility- but what do I know.. But getting to your problem: I am not sure what to suggest, since I am not exactly sure I follow your description of the problem. I know upon re-reading it is a bit confusing sorry... :) ! But you could write to Tony Nader and ask what he suggests. It might even mean talking with one of the current advanced technique teachers (hopefully no fee would be charged). You might get an answer. If you get no response, I would say that if you think you know the exact seed mantra you are to be using and it is merely a question of pronunciation, then go with MMY's pronunciation, not Lilian's. MMY's pronunciation as you were told on TTC and also his pronunciation from when he himself initiated you or gave you your own list of mantras. I too got initiated by MMY for my 2nd technique and loved that mantra and experiences. Yes--- WOW! How sweet that was for me, too But following the dangling carrot one ( I...) always thought it could be better.. Now I can look back and laugh laugh laugh at my sweet self for going for MORE... Was it Marek who suggested the I'm sorry-- I forgive you--Thank you-- I love you process ? I love putting one hand on my heart and one facing outward and saying that over-and-over, softly TO MYSELF Thank you, if that was you, Sir Marek. wherever you are... And Thank You, Susan, for your writing in response to me... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 06/17/2012 01:04 PM, stevelf wrote: I am an MIU grad, executive governor, 40-year TMeditator with a personal mantra dilemna and am in need of some help. Thank you for reading the following. It's a bit convoluted and redundant, but only because I am striving for clarity... My brief mantra history: I was initiated (for $45.) in 1972 at Goddard College in Plainfield, Vermont. A year Iater I was on TTC in Engelberg, Suisse. Then on my 6-month course in 1976 I received my 1st advanced technique from Maharishi. Two years later I received my 2nd a.t. from Lillian (quickest-puja-in-the-world) Rosen at MIU. When I received all the TM teaching mantras from Maharishi at the end of TTC from Maharishi directly, I was surprired to see that my 1st mantra I received from my initiator was different from any M. gave me. When M. gave me my first a.t. in '76, all was remedied because what he gave me I found delightful, smooth-sailing, easy. comfortable, a good fit, etc., and the core bija sound of the mantra matched what he (Maharishi) had imparted in the group of mantras he (Maharishi) had imparted to me at the end of TTC. But then when Lillian gave me my 2nd technique, again the pronunciation of her bestowed to me seed mantra was different from the group of teaching seed mantras Maharishi gave me to teach with. I know that different teachers, male and female, were given slightly different mantras, also depending on what year they were made initiators. Here is my specific dilemna: having seen online the mantra charts for advanced techniques on several websites over the years, I see the correct spelling of my seed 2nd tecnique mantra that Lillian gave me... but her pronunciation of it is quite different (as I said above) from the group of mantras Maharishi gave me to impart when teaching. Advanced technique mantras are longer, of course, but it's the seed part I am referring to. My subjective feeling is I never liked what Lillian gave me (as an aside, nor her
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
According to the current Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math, a lineal descendent of HH Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, all mantras are kept pure only by passing between the mouth of the teacher and the ears of his or her student. Therefore all mantras that pass between more than these four ears violate the purity of the holy tradition and are considered spoiled. So all mantras given by a TM teacher are spoilt. Furthermore the Shankaracharya has noted that Mahesh often gave mantras with the incorrect pronunciation. He therefore states that TM mantras will never bestow spiritual benefits. Such is the wisdom of the Holy Tradition. Many TMers approach saints like Amma for their full mantra. Perhaps you should consider approaching a legitimate saint such as Amma or another to remove this stain on your karma? Why devolve when evolution is so much more compelling? Mahesh was his secretary and he was not Gurudev’s desciple in any way but was a part of the administrative staff. We dont sell our knowledge, we share it. There will be no spiritual benefit from the TM mantras. - HH Swami Swarupananda, Jagadguru of Jyotir Math Vaj Restoring the purity of the tradition since 1974.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/17/2012 07:42 PM, Susan wrote: Lilian Rosen was a character. I know of one TM teacher who went to her for an advanced technique. When she asked him what his mantra was, and he told her, she exploded, saying that was impossible, he could not have learned that yet. Well, it turned out that MMY himself had given this teacher that very mantra she yelled about. The teacher walked out.. refusing to have anything to dow ith learning anything from Lilian. That's funny because before I became a teacher I helped Lillian one day with when she gave out advanced techniques. I had heard all kinds of stories so was ready for some caustic reactions from her, however she treated me very nicely and appreciatively.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/18/2012 12:25 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: On 06/17/2012 06:43 PM, stevelf wrote: my comments below I had confusion over my advanced technique too which MMY gave me on TTC but so did about 1/2 the plane of folks returning from TTC. Many could either not remember at all or not remember clearly. A few years later I just learned something else and have been happy ever since. BTW, I wrote MMY twice for a mantra check but never heard back. Learning something else is not that big a deal since many other paths have mantras for the public that are as strong as the advanced technique (yes it is those paths first technique). I am curious what specific other paths you are referring to. The curious thing about advanced techniques is that (according to what I have seen on some websites) the difference between the advanced techniques is pretty minimal-- just some added shri's and namah's in different #'s with the same core bija mantra in between... hold on, I think some lightning just hit my house how strange, there's not a cloud in the sky.. Ones you probably should have read up on or met people who practiced them. :-D Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? The advanced technique is just a Saraswati mantra. I even had a professor of astrology at Benares Hindu University recommend the same mantra to me after he looked at my horoscope. Some people might do better with a Shiva mantra and others with a mantra for Ram. There are lots of mantras. Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. Kinda proves that an accurate pronunciation is not very important. I think a more correct spelling would be om namaH shivaaya (prolly pronounced by most something like 'awm namash shivaaya'). The form 'shivaaya' is the dative singular, 'to/for shiva'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVi5NeY3veM (BTW, never before noticed that most Shivas have a hair colour that's kinda Russian, or Siberian, i.e. , not black...LOL!) Of course it depends on the transliteration and what considerations are made for the target audience. The transliterations we were given for the TM puja took into consideration the American accent. A lot of transliterations of Sanskrit and Hindi are for British accents so Americans might screw those up. And then Om should rhyme with home not hum. Ultimately one should teach followers Devanagari and even a short course would help so the question of pronunciation is eliminated. I have my guru write mantras in Devanagari to keep things clear.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 06/17/2012 07:42 PM, Susan wrote: Lilian Rosen was a character. I know of one TM teacher who went to her for an advanced technique. When she asked him what his mantra was, and he told her, she exploded, saying that was impossible, he could not have learned that yet. Well, it turned out that MMY himself had given this teacher that very mantra she yelled about. The teacher walked out.. refusing to have anything to dow ith learning anything from Lilian. That's funny because before I became a teacher I helped Lillian one day with when she gave out advanced techniques. I had heard all kinds of stories so was ready for some caustic reactions from her, however she treated me very nicely and appreciatively. Consider yourself fortunate, and rare. :-) By 1977, whenever she came to L.A. it had become impossible to find anyone who was willing TO work with her in any way, or assist her in any fashion. Comments from those approached tended to be of the I'd rather die...twice variety. The last time she came through town on an Advanced Techniques teaching tour, we literally had to import some people from out of town who had never met her to serve as setup people for the teaching process. We didn't dare approach our local meditators, and none of the teachers would come within a city block of her. Several passed on getting their Advanced Techniques period, preferring to wait a year or two rather than to get one from her. Suffice it to say she was quite a trip. :-) I heard a great Lilian story once, although I can't verify that it was true. It concerns Bobby Lee, at the time one of the Regional Coordinators. Lilian was supposed to come to his city to teach, and having heard about her from others, he decided to do a pre- emptive kindness strike to try to get on her good side. Knowing where she would be staying, he called ahead and ordered two dozen long-stemmed roses to be delivered to her room the morning she arrived, with a card from him. Somehow the florist messed up, and delivered the box of flowers to the hotel several days early. The hotel staff, not knowing any better, put the box in her room, and so when she opened it, it contained two dozen black, rotting roses, with a card from Bobby Lee. Supposedly he was supposed to pick her up that morning to drive her to the teaching location, but when he arrived police were waiting to question him. She had accused him of threatening her life. Yet another TM Death Threat Harpy. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Another good laugh, thank you. Hmmm, maybe she was also holding on to a grudge from lifetimes ago, as we females do (-: From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 06/17/2012 07:42 PM, Susan wrote: Lilian Rosen was a character. I know of one TM teacher who went to her for an advanced technique. When she asked him what his mantra was, and he told her, she exploded, saying that was impossible, he could not have learned that yet. Well, it turned out that MMY himself had given this teacher that very mantra she yelled about. The teacher walked out.. refusing to have anything to dow ith learning anything from Lilian. That's funny because before I became a teacher I helped Lillian one day with when she gave out advanced techniques. I had heard all kinds of stories so was ready for some caustic reactions from her, however she treated me very nicely and appreciatively. Consider yourself fortunate, and rare. :-) By 1977, whenever she came to L.A. it had become impossible to find anyone who was willing TO work with her in any way, or assist her in any fashion. Comments from those approached tended to be of the I'd rather die...twice variety. The last time she came through town on an Advanced Techniques teaching tour, we literally had to import some people from out of town who had never met her to serve as setup people for the teaching process. We didn't dare approach our local meditators, and none of the teachers would come within a city block of her. Several passed on getting their Advanced Techniques period, preferring to wait a year or two rather than to get one from her. Suffice it to say she was quite a trip. :-) I heard a great Lilian story once, although I can't verify that it was true. It concerns Bobby Lee, at the time one of the Regional Coordinators. Lilian was supposed to come to his city to teach, and having heard about her from others, he decided to do a pre- emptive kindness strike to try to get on her good side. Knowing where she would be staying, he called ahead and ordered two dozen long-stemmed roses to be delivered to her room the morning she arrived, with a card from him. Somehow the florist messed up, and delivered the box of flowers to the hotel several days early. The hotel staff, not knowing any better, put the box in her room, and so when she opened it, it contained two dozen black, rotting roses, with a card from Bobby Lee. Supposedly he was supposed to pick her up that morning to drive her to the teaching location, but when he arrived police were waiting to question him. She had accused him of threatening her life. Yet another TM Death Threat Harpy. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Thanks for your help, Lawson-- I am sifting through your comments to find what can help me. Oh really? You obsess over the pronunciation of your mantra every time you start meditating? I can't even remember how to pronounce my mantra without some moments of thought, so I'm supposed to take 5-10 minutes of exploring pronunciations until I find the one that feels right? And... how is does this obsession about your mantra jive with the just the right start that can occur when your mantra spontaneously appears during the 30 seconds with the eyes closed? Do you go: oh no! that's not right! I gotta stop thinking that 'wrong mantra' and think my REAL mantra! As I have said many times: the fact that TM teachers often don't understand TM themselves, doesn't prevent them from teaching TM, as long as they follow the instructions they were given during TTC. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
I like it, thank you, Nabby... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Well, the fact that you are hung up on pronunciation of the mantra (or any other aspect of an advanced technique) during meditation suggests to me that you don't get TM, no matter how many times you have taught or checked a person. Whatever is easy. Remember? Exactly. Just let go and everything will be fine. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: [...] Vaj Restoring the purity of the tradition since 1974. So you've spend 38 years being an anti-TMer? Wow. Dedication far beyond mine since I am a long-term TMer because I think it helps me in some way. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Thanks to you for passing that on, Share --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: Hi Steve, Ho'oponopono, from the Hawaiian Kahuna tradition. Can google very cool story of Dr. Hew Len's work in ward for criminally insane. I'm sorry Please forgive me Thank you I love you Share
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On Jun 18, 2012, at 1:58 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: [...] Vaj Restoring the purity of the tradition since 1974. So you've spend 38 years being an anti-TMer? No, restoring the purity of the tradition.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/17/2012 09:44 PM, stevelf wrote: my comments in between below Ones you probably should have read up on or met people who practiced them. :-D You are absolutely right... and THAT I certainly have (to the best of my ability...) over my 58 years and travelling around this beautiful world over ten times by off-road mountain bike .mostly through SE Asia Great! But you didn't mention that initially so I had to assume you didn't. ;-) Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? That is so cute and I mean that in a loving way My practice for SO many years was what MMY recommended after my AEGTC (Age of Enlightenment Governor Training Course...). I am open to getting in the domes again so I will not enumerate my spiritual endeavors here and now. I'm not sure with your experiences why you would bother? I have no interest in TM which I call yoga lite. OTOH, I made acquaintances with people who had a very broad background and experience with other traditions and have written books on them. The advanced technique is just a Saraswati mantra. I even had a professor of astrology at Benares Hindu University recommend the same mantra to me after he looked at my horoscope. Some people might do better with a Shiva mantra and others with a mantra for Ram. There are lots of mantras. Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My first experiment in meditation was in 1971 with Om Aum Um Vahra Guru Padme Siddhi Om--- straight out of Ram Dass's Be Here Now, when attending Goddard College later. I lived in the TM dorm there. My girlfriend gave me Be Here Now for Christmas in 1972. A month later Ram Dass gave a talk at the local University and we attended. I took my cassette recorder to it and recorded the whole thing. Still have the tape and transferred it to an MP3. A little while after that my girlfriend started TM and recommended it. A month later she dropped by and had attended a weekend Kundalini intensive which would have either been Muktananda or Yogi Bhajan. So she didn't stick with TM very long. :-D And one of the acquaintances was Michael Murphy aka Bhagavan Das or the American Ram Dass wrote about in Be Here Now. He was after their LSD and they were after his butt. ;-) The first meditation teacher Michael learned from in India was MMY and he was given Ram as a mantra. Michael use to live in the Bay Area performed bhajans at places including Harbin Hot Springs but moved back east about 10 years ago.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
comment below My first experiment in meditation was in 1971 with Om Aum Um Vahra Guru Padme Siddhi Om--- straight out of Ram Dass's Be Here Now, when attending Goddard College later. I lived in the TM dorm there. My girlfriend gave me Be Here Now for Christmas in 1972. A month later Ram Dass gave a talk at the local University and we attended. I took my cassette recorder to it and recorded the whole thing. Still have the tape and transferred it to an MP3. A little while after that my girlfriend started TM and recommended it. A month later she dropped by and had attended a weekend Kundalini intensive which would have either been Muktananda or Yogi Bhajan. So she didn't stick with TM very long. :-D And one of the acquaintances was Michael Murphy aka Bhagavan Das or the American Ram Dass wrote about in Be Here Now. He was after their LSD and they were after his butt. ;-) The first meditation teacher Michael learned from in India was MMY and he was given Ram as a mantra. Michael use to live in the Bay Area performed bhajans at places including Harbin Hot Springs but moved back east about 10 years ago. I love the old stories. they are sounscripted.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
The summer before my senior year inn high school, I traveled to Plainfield and checked out Goddard. Coming from an all girls Catholic school, I was definitely NOT Goddard material (-: From: stevelf ysoy1...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:47 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested... comment below My first experiment in meditation was in 1971 with Om Aum Um Vahra Guru Padme Siddhi Om--- straight out of Ram Dass's Be Here Now, when attending Goddard College later. I lived in the TM dorm there. My girlfriend gave me Be Here Now for Christmas in 1972. A month later Ram Dass gave a talk at the local University and we attended. I took my cassette recorder to it and recorded the whole thing. Still have the tape and transferred it to an MP3. A little while after that my girlfriend started TM and recommended it. A month later she dropped by and had attended a weekend Kundalini intensive which would have either been Muktananda or Yogi Bhajan. So she didn't stick with TM very long. :-D And one of the acquaintances was Michael Murphy aka Bhagavan Das or the American Ram Dass wrote about in Be Here Now. He was after their LSD and they were after his butt. ;-) The first meditation teacher Michael learned from in India was MMY and he was given Ram as a mantra. Michael use to live in the Bay Area performed bhajans at places including Harbin Hot Springs but moved back east about 10 years ago. I love the old stories. they are sounscripted.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Goddard College was a unique experience, indeed... I learned about furniture making, inner psychic space (name of a course I took...), Herman Hesse, throwing frisbee, co-ed bathrooms, free love, Mr. Natural blotter acid, shooting pool, the I-Ching, Ram Dass, sweat lodges. Then one day I saw on campus a poster for something called transcendental meditation (no capital letters), and attended a lecture by John Lacy. When I innocently asked him how these mantras were selected he stopped, gazed wistfully upwards and said, I studied many months with Maharishi to acquire this talent, and there is no way I could answer you so quickly now One month later I was due for what Goddard called a NRT-- Non-Resident Trimester, and with help from Toby Fineblum, a sweet, silently-charismatic TM devotee, I was off to Aminona, Switzerland for some course called The Science of Creative Intelligence, and after that, I extended to take a Teacher Training Course in the meditation itself(can you imagine the letters my parents received?). Needless to say my hard-packs of Marlboro and penchant for psychedelics and daily cannabis smoking passed by the wayside (yes, thankfully...). Brings to mind the very first time I saw dear Maharishi the first time... It was on TTC, which was being taught by the two wonderful musicians from The Natural Tendency Rick Stanley and Paul (thank you, Google...) Fauerso. Wonderful men. There was an elevator and I had pressed the up button to head in that direction.The door opened and the electrons just started silently popping as a noticeably small white-sari-clad-Maharishi gazed softly and directly into my eyes epitomizing the definition of a word I didn't even know existed==Shakti==in a tender moment I, clearly, will never forget --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: The summer before my senior year inn high school, I traveled to Plainfield and checked out Goddard. Coming from an all girls Catholic school, I was definitely NOT Goddard material (-:
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Jeeze louise. This, assuming you are not a troll, fully illustrates my observation that a TM teacher can teach TM properly without ever getting it him or her self. If you can't remember, or at least consciously assimilate, what you are instructed say to meditators about this situation, then go and get checked by an active teacher and let them tell you verbally. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: I am an MIU grad, executive governor, 40-year TMeditator with a personal mantra dilemna and am in need of some help. Thank you for reading the following. It's a bit convoluted and redundant, but only because I am striving for clarity... My brief mantra history: I was initiated (for $45.) in 1972 at Goddard College in Plainfield, Vermont. A year Iater I was on TTC in Engelberg, Suisse. Then on my 6-month course in 1976 I received my 1st advanced technique from Maharishi. Two years later I received my 2nd a.t. from Lillian (quickest-puja-in-the-world) Rosen at MIU. When I received all the TM teaching mantras from Maharishi at the end of TTC from Maharishi directly, I was surprired to see that my 1st mantra I received from my initiator was different from any M. gave me. When M. gave me my first a.t. in '76, all was remedied because what he gave me I found delightful, smooth-sailing, easy. comfortable, a good fit, etc., and the core bija sound of the mantra matched what he (Maharishi) had imparted in the group of mantras he (Maharishi) had imparted to me at the end of TTC. But then when Lillian gave me my 2nd technique, again the pronunciation of her bestowed to me seed mantra was different from the group of teaching seed mantras Maharishi gave me to teach with. I know that different teachers, male and female, were given slightly different mantras, also depending on what year they were made initiators. Here is my specific dilemna: having seen online the mantra charts for advanced techniques on several websites over the years, I see the correct spelling of my seed 2nd tecnique mantra that Lillian gave me... but her pronunciation of it is quite different (as I said above) from the group of mantras Maharishi gave me to impart when teaching. Advanced technique mantras are longer, of course, but it's the seed part I am referring to. My subjective feeling is I never liked what Lillian gave me (as an aside, nor her demeanor). The pronunciation somehow seems wrong or contrived, not sleek and smooth. I really have no way to have my present advanced technique mantra checked other than looking online. I could, and have a bit, experiment with the pronunciation to match what I received from Maharishi, but there-in lies my dilemna... I could, but am hesitant to, make up my own mantra. to reiterate: this ( wrong?? ) mantra I have been using for so many years seems flat, contrived, boring, etc.. And I have stopped meditating regularly because of this. The old vibrant vitality in my meditation practice is just not there any more (again, incorrect mantra ?? ). Same with the sidhis that I practiced for so many years-- at a certain point my inner feeling was that practicing them felt like an inner imposition, a contrived prison of obligatory practice that I kept perpetuating, and FOR WHOM was I doing this ? I stopped the sidhis because I felt they were not constructive, life-supporting, energetic, fun, vibrant, etc. I really only did them forever out of a sense of deference to Maharishi's (great seer's) direction... BTW, the Age of Enlightenment technique I received personally from Maharishi on my first 6-month course ( pre-sidhis ) I do find very profound and amazing. . So, thank you for reading ! Please be kind and constructive as I am very sincere in my posting this. I have lurked for several years here and have occasionally posted. I would really like to see all the disparity I have witnessed here coalesce into a positive channel to help me with my spiritual dilemna, putting this website to good use. THANK YOU...
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Jeeze louise. This, assuming you are not a troll, fully illustrates my observation that a TM teacher can teach TM properly without ever getting it him or her self. If you can't remember, or at least consciously assimilate, what you are instructed say to meditators about this situation, then go and get checked by an active teacher and let them tell you verbally. L. Jeeze louise, right back at ya, Lawson... there is not much about me that resembles a troll, but I will look into my soul and consider it. Thank you.That troll you referred to would have to be pretty well informed to provide the info that I did in my post, dontchathink...?? A meditator would presumably never know there exists discrepencies in the same TM mantra pronunciations, or, maybe you did not get my post, which BTW surprises me because you seem one of the more astute members here IMHO. But I thank you for your response and advice .
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, m2smart4u2000 no_reply@... wrote: The Vedic experts come from time to time to every area and that is the only real way to have your advanced technique checked. They will check any advanced technique. I would try to get in touch with your local largest nearby center to find out when they are coming. Do not refer to other unreliable sources on the internet. There are wrong instructions all around. The only reliable source for the checking is from the vedic pundits. I was recently able to meet with one of the vedic pundits to ask questions and clear up confusion. Thank you, m2smart4u2000-- I will LOVE to have this happen and will check it out. I am currently living in the San Francisco area and will contact the center and see what they know about the Vedic experts. All the best to you!
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
my comments interspersed --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@... wrote: Dear Stevef, first I want to congratulate you, you have come to the right place, here on this forum FFL, many experienced TM teachers hang out, many EX-teachers, and also many would be teachers are here, who are still faithfully practicing. So, help is sure to reach you. I will comment further down. thanks-- it's always nice to be congratulated :) If I interpret this correctly, you actually got the same bija from Lillian, that was on your mantra list from Maharishi, just the pronunciation differed? EXACTLY RIGHT... And now you are inquiring of the pronunciation of the same bija as you got it from Maharishi was appropriate for you to repeat? Of course it is: two people pronounce the same mantra different. You personally prefer the pronunciation of Maharishi, who must have been the one who gave the mantra to Lillian in the first place, so it is of course completely right of you to adopt that pronunciation. It is the same mantra, so you didn't 'construct' it. It is completely okay you repeat, a you remember it from Maharishi, of course. Makes sense to me, but sometimes the most obvious things can be difficult to see... And I have stopped meditating regularly because of this. The old vibrant vitality in my meditation practice is just not there any more (again, incorrect mantra ?? ). IMHO you should not force yourself to meditate. I do meditate myself, but I don't use the TM mantra anymore. IMHO you should meditate with the mantra or word that inspires you most. Don't force yourself, do it when you are inspired to do it. This is not a TM advice, but my personal advice. Meditation will come completely by itself and spontaneous with time. Same with the sidhis that I practiced for so many years-- at a certain point my inner feeling was that practicing them felt like an inner imposition, a contrived prison of obligatory practice that I kept perpetuating, and FOR WHOM was I doing this ? I stopped the sidhis because I felt they were not constructive, life-supporting, energetic, fun, vibrant, etc. I really only did them forever out of a sense of deference to Maharishi's (great seer's) direction... I also stopped the siddhis, as I didn't feel any difference anymore when doing it, or when not doing it. If you feel they are helpful, do it, but if you do it only to please Maharishi it is useless. You might also, as an alternative, only practice the siddhis you are drawn to, which you feel do enrich you, and skip the rest. Again, what you say makes sense ... BTW, the Age of Enlightenment technique I received personally from Maharishi on my first 6-month course ( pre-sidhis ) I do find very profound and amazing. Exactly. Do just the practices that enrich you and leave the rest. Right. We are experimental pawns no more... For me this long TMO journey has always been --- take what works and ignore the rest. But over the years the scale has been really leaning over to the insane side of things--- completely lacking in the TMO having a sincere heart filled with compassion, sincerity and fairness. The perfection I used to project onto Maharishi was naieve of me. Yet life is always that way-- what are you going to focus on in all one's interactions with people ? The positive or the negative. Everyone, beautiful Maharishi, too, and me as well, has aspects of good and evil
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
my comments below I had confusion over my advanced technique too which MMY gave me on TTC but so did about 1/2 the plane of folks returning from TTC. Many could either not remember at all or not remember clearly. A few years later I just learned something else and have been happy ever since. BTW, I wrote MMY twice for a mantra check but never heard back. Learning something else is not that big a deal since many other paths have mantras for the public that are as strong as the advanced technique (yes it is those paths first technique). I am curious what specific other paths you are referring to. The curious thing about advanced techniques is that (according to what I have seen on some websites) the difference between the advanced techniques is pretty minimal-- just some added shri's and namah's in different #'s with the same core bija mantra in between... hold on, I think some lightning just hit my house how strange, there's not a cloud in the sky..
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Dit-dit-dit-dittos Steve! I've had the exact same frustration for the exact same reasons! There is a very subtle difference in how Lillian pronounced a certain bija and how any other Adv.Tech teacher would pronounce it, especially the Indians. Lillian's was not smooth and easy, more twisted, requiring effort. I did get used to it though and eventually started having nice experiences. From: stevelf ysoy1...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 6:28 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested... my comments interspersed --- In mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@... wrote: Dear Stevef, first I want to congratulate you, you have come to the right place, here on this forum FFL, many experienced TM teachers hang out, many EX-teachers, and also many would be teachers are here, who are still faithfully practicing. So, help is sure to reach you. I will comment further down. thanks-- it's always nice to be congratulated :) If I interpret this correctly, you actually got the same bija from Lillian, that was on your mantra list from Maharishi, just the pronunciation differed? EXACTLY RIGHT... And now you are inquiring of the pronunciation of the same bija as you got it from Maharishi was appropriate for you to repeat? Of course it is: two people pronounce the same mantra different. You personally prefer the pronunciation of Maharishi, who must have been the one who gave the mantra to Lillian in the first place, so it is of course completely right of you to adopt that pronunciation. It is the same mantra, so you didn't 'construct' it. It is completely okay you repeat, a you remember it from Maharishi, of course. Makes sense to me, but sometimes the most obvious things can be difficult to see... And I have stopped meditating regularly because of this. The old vibrant vitality in my meditation practice is just not there any more (again, incorrect mantra ?? ). IMHO you should not force yourself to meditate. I do meditate myself, but I don't use the TM mantra anymore. IMHO you should meditate with the mantra or word that inspires you most. Don't force yourself, do it when you are inspired to do it. This is not a TM advice, but my personal advice. Meditation will come completely by itself and spontaneous with time. Same with the sidhis that I practiced for so many years-- at a certain point my inner feeling was that practicing them felt like an inner imposition, a contrived prison of obligatory practice that I kept perpetuating, and FOR WHOM was I doing this ? I stopped the sidhis because I felt they were not constructive, life-supporting, energetic, fun, vibrant, etc. I really only did them forever out of a sense of deference to Maharishi's (great seer's) direction... I also stopped the siddhis, as I didn't feel any difference anymore when doing it, or when not doing it. If you feel they are helpful, do it, but if you do it only to please Maharishi it is useless. You might also, as an alternative, only practice the siddhis you are drawn to, which you feel do enrich you, and skip the rest. Again, what you say makes sense ... BTW, the Age of Enlightenment technique I received personally from Maharishi on my first 6-month course ( pre-sidhis ) I do find very profound and amazing. Exactly. Do just the practices that enrich you and leave the rest. Right. We are experimental pawns no more... For me this long TMO journey has always been --- take what works and ignore the rest. But over the years the scale has been really leaning over to the insane side of things--- completely lacking in the TMO having a sincere heart filled with compassion, sincerity and fairness. The perfection I used to project onto Maharishi was naieve of me. Yet life is always that way-- what are you going to focus on in all one's interactions with people ? The positive or the negative. Everyone, beautiful Maharishi, too, and me as well, has aspects of good and evil
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Lilian Rosen was a character. I know of one TM teacher who went to her for an advanced technique. When she asked him what his mantra was, and he told her, she exploded, saying that was impossible, he could not have learned that yet. Well, it turned out that MMY himself had given this teacher that very mantra she yelled about. The teacher walked out.. refusing to have anything to dow ith learning anything from Lilian. But getting to your problem: I am not sure what to suggest, since I am not exactly sure I follow your description of the problem. But you could write to Tony Nader and ask what he suggests. It might even mean talking with one of the current advanced technique teachers (hopefully no fee would be charged). You might get an answer. If you get no response, I would say that if you think you know the exact seed mantra you are to be using and it is merely a question of pronunciation, then go with MMY's pronunciation, not Lilian's. MMY's pronunciation as you were told on TTC and also his pronunciation from when he himself initiated you or gave you your own list of mantras. I too got initiated by MMY for my 2nd technique and loved that mantra and experiences. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 06/17/2012 01:04 PM, stevelf wrote: I am an MIU grad, executive governor, 40-year TMeditator with a personal mantra dilemna and am in need of some help. Thank you for reading the following. It's a bit convoluted and redundant, but only because I am striving for clarity... My brief mantra history: I was initiated (for $45.) in 1972 at Goddard College in Plainfield, Vermont. A year Iater I was on TTC in Engelberg, Suisse. Then on my 6-month course in 1976 I received my 1st advanced technique from Maharishi. Two years later I received my 2nd a.t. from Lillian (quickest-puja-in-the-world) Rosen at MIU. When I received all the TM teaching mantras from Maharishi at the end of TTC from Maharishi directly, I was surprired to see that my 1st mantra I received from my initiator was different from any M. gave me. When M. gave me my first a.t. in '76, all was remedied because what he gave me I found delightful, smooth-sailing, easy. comfortable, a good fit, etc., and the core bija sound of the mantra matched what he (Maharishi) had imparted in the group of mantras he (Maharishi) had imparted to me at the end of TTC. But then when Lillian gave me my 2nd technique, again the pronunciation of her bestowed to me seed mantra was different from the group of teaching seed mantras Maharishi gave me to teach with. I know that different teachers, male and female, were given slightly different mantras, also depending on what year they were made initiators. Here is my specific dilemna: having seen online the mantra charts for advanced techniques on several websites over the years, I see the correct spelling of my seed 2nd tecnique mantra that Lillian gave me... but her pronunciation of it is quite different (as I said above) from the group of mantras Maharishi gave me to impart when teaching. Advanced technique mantras are longer, of course, but it's the seed part I am referring to. My subjective feeling is I never liked what Lillian gave me (as an aside, nor her demeanor). The pronunciation somehow seems wrong or contrived, not sleek and smooth. I really have no way to have my present advanced technique mantra checked other than looking online. I could, and have a bit, experiment with the pronunciation to match what I received from Maharishi, but there-in lies my dilemna... I could, but am hesitant to, make up my own mantra. to reiterate: this ( wrong?? ) mantra I have been using for so many years seems flat, contrived, boring, etc.. And I have stopped meditating regularly because of this. The old vibrant vitality in my meditation practice is just not there any more (again, incorrect mantra ?? ). Same with the sidhis that I practiced for so many years-- at a certain point my inner feeling was that practicing them felt like an inner imposition, a contrived prison of obligatory practice that I kept perpetuating, and FOR WHOM was I doing this ? I stopped the sidhis because I felt they were not constructive, life-supporting, energetic, fun, vibrant, etc. I really only did them forever out of a sense of deference to Maharishi's (great seer's) direction... BTW, the Age of Enlightenment technique I received personally from Maharishi on my first 6-month course ( pre-sidhis ) I do find very profound and amazing. . So, thank you for reading ! Please be kind and constructive as I am very sincere in my posting this. I have lurked for several years here and have occasionally posted. I would really like to see all the disparity I have witnessed here coalesce into a positive channel to help
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
On 06/17/2012 06:43 PM, stevelf wrote: my comments below I had confusion over my advanced technique too which MMY gave me on TTC but so did about 1/2 the plane of folks returning from TTC. Many could either not remember at all or not remember clearly. A few years later I just learned something else and have been happy ever since. BTW, I wrote MMY twice for a mantra check but never heard back. Learning something else is not that big a deal since many other paths have mantras for the public that are as strong as the advanced technique (yes it is those paths first technique). I am curious what specific other paths you are referring to. The curious thing about advanced techniques is that (according to what I have seen on some websites) the difference between the advanced techniques is pretty minimal-- just some added shri's and namah's in different #'s with the same core bija mantra in between... hold on, I think some lightning just hit my house how strange, there's not a cloud in the sky.. Ones you probably should have read up on or met people who practiced them. :-D Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? The advanced technique is just a Saraswati mantra. I even had a professor of astrology at Benares Hindu University recommend the same mantra to me after he looked at my horoscope. Some people might do better with a Shiva mantra and others with a mantra for Ram. There are lots of mantras. Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. A friend gave me a small card that Muktananda had zapped with that mantra printed on it. That's basically what his school (Kashmiri Shaivism) taught. It worked very well. I learned a guru mantra from my tantra teacher as well as how to charge a mantra and teach someone using shaktipat. With TM you only scratched the surface and if you are a true seeker there is much more to discover.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dixon mdixon.6569@... wrote: Dit-dit-dit-dittos Steve! I've had the exact same frustration for the exact same reasons! There is a very subtle difference in how Lillian pronounced a certain bija and how any other Adv.Tech teacher would pronounce it, especially the Indians. Lillian's was not smooth and easy, more twisted, requiring effort. I did get used to it though and eventually started having nice experiences. Sincere thanks, Mikethis has kinda been a big deal to me over the years. I felt something was off with Lillian's mantra pronunciation, yet she was the supposed teacher that I was to respect in Maharishi's tradition... It was only years later (as I have said), when perusing some renegade websites that I noticed the spelling of the bija in question was the same, yet her pronunciation was quite awkwardly different (from what Maharishi gave me personally). And yet (on that website) the mantra list for me being a male and made an initiator in 1972 was right on. And their advanced technique list was a first for me to see, so it was all a bit of a surprise. A very frustrating surprise at that. Some might say the confusion comes from my snooping around, but, we are not victims anymore with silly secrets and misdirected and inappropriate loyalties when it comes TO OUR PERSONAL EVOLUTION... I appreciate you reply and you have freed me from my inner isolation. Thank you !
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
my comments in between below Ones you probably should have read up on or met people who practiced them. :-D You are absolutely right... and THAT I certainly have (to the best of my ability...) over my 58 years and travelling around this beautiful world over ten times by off-road mountain bike .mostly through SE Asia Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? That is so cute and I mean that in a loving way My practice for SO many years was what MMY recommended after my AEGTC (Age of Enlightenment Governor Training Course...). I am open to getting in the domes again so I will not enumerate my spiritual endeavors here and now. The advanced technique is just a Saraswati mantra. I even had a professor of astrology at Benares Hindu University recommend the same mantra to me after he looked at my horoscope. Some people might do better with a Shiva mantra and others with a mantra for Ram. There are lots of mantras. Short beejs like the first technique work because they are short and about anyone can give them. The longer ones, even though easily learned, require a jump start by a teacher who knows how to do that. In fact MMY started out that way. My first experiment in meditation was in 1971 with Om Aum Um Vahra Guru Padme Siddhi Om--- straight out of Ram Dass's Be Here Now, when attending Goddard College later. I lived in the TM dorm there. Having travelled for many months throughout Nepal I, of course, came upon their traditional Om mane Padme Om', and later Amma's (or whoever's) Om Nama Shivaya. My replacement mantra was simply Shiva mantra or Om Nama Shivaya. A friend gave me a small card that Muktananda had zapped with that mantra printed on it. That's basically what his school (Kashmiri Shaivism) taught. It worked very well. I learned a guru mantra from my tantra teacher as well as how to charge a mantra and teach someone using shaktipat. With TM you only scratched the surface and if you are a true seeker there is much more to discover. that is beautiful I love discovering things. thank you...
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
my comments in between yours below... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: Lilian Rosen was a character. I know of one TM teacher who went to her for an advanced technique. When she asked him what his mantra was, and he told her, she exploded, saying that was impossible, he could not have learned that yet. Well, it turned out that MMY himself had given this teacher that very mantra she yelled about. The teacher walked out.. refusing to have anything to dow ith learning anything from Lilian. I'm not sure if Lillian had learned much about humility- but what do I know.. But getting to your problem: I am not sure what to suggest, since I am not exactly sure I follow your description of the problem. I know upon re-reading it is a bit confusing sorry... :) ! But you could write to Tony Nader and ask what he suggests. It might even mean talking with one of the current advanced technique teachers (hopefully no fee would be charged). You might get an answer. If you get no response, I would say that if you think you know the exact seed mantra you are to be using and it is merely a question of pronunciation, then go with MMY's pronunciation, not Lilian's. MMY's pronunciation as you were told on TTC and also his pronunciation from when he himself initiated you or gave you your own list of mantras. I too got initiated by MMY for my 2nd technique and loved that mantra and experiences. Yes--- WOW! How sweet that was for me, too But following the dangling carrot one ( I...) always thought it could be better.. Now I can look back and laugh laugh laugh at my sweet self for going for MORE... Was it Marek who suggested the I'm sorry-- I forgive you--Thank you-- I love you process ? I love putting one hand on my heart and one facing outward and saying that over-and-over, softly TO MYSELF Thank you, if that was you, Sir Marek. wherever you are... And Thank You, Susan, for your writing in response to me... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 06/17/2012 01:04 PM, stevelf wrote: I am an MIU grad, executive governor, 40-year TMeditator with a personal mantra dilemna and am in need of some help. Thank you for reading the following. It's a bit convoluted and redundant, but only because I am striving for clarity... My brief mantra history: I was initiated (for $45.) in 1972 at Goddard College in Plainfield, Vermont. A year Iater I was on TTC in Engelberg, Suisse. Then on my 6-month course in 1976 I received my 1st advanced technique from Maharishi. Two years later I received my 2nd a.t. from Lillian (quickest-puja-in-the-world) Rosen at MIU. When I received all the TM teaching mantras from Maharishi at the end of TTC from Maharishi directly, I was surprired to see that my 1st mantra I received from my initiator was different from any M. gave me. When M. gave me my first a.t. in '76, all was remedied because what he gave me I found delightful, smooth-sailing, easy. comfortable, a good fit, etc., and the core bija sound of the mantra matched what he (Maharishi) had imparted in the group of mantras he (Maharishi) had imparted to me at the end of TTC. But then when Lillian gave me my 2nd technique, again the pronunciation of her bestowed to me seed mantra was different from the group of teaching seed mantras Maharishi gave me to teach with. I know that different teachers, male and female, were given slightly different mantras, also depending on what year they were made initiators. Here is my specific dilemna: having seen online the mantra charts for advanced techniques on several websites over the years, I see the correct spelling of my seed 2nd tecnique mantra that Lillian gave me... but her pronunciation of it is quite different (as I said above) from the group of mantras Maharishi gave me to impart when teaching. Advanced technique mantras are longer, of course, but it's the seed part I am referring to. My subjective feeling is I never liked what Lillian gave me (as an aside, nor her demeanor). The pronunciation somehow seems wrong or contrived, not sleek and smooth. I really have no way to have my present advanced technique mantra checked other than looking online. I could, and have a bit, experiment with the pronunciation to match what I received from Maharishi, but there-in lies my dilemna... I could, but am hesitant to, make up my own mantra. to reiterate: this ( wrong?? ) mantra I have been using for so many years seems flat, contrived, boring, etc.. And I have stopped meditating regularly because of this. The old vibrant vitality in my meditation practice is just not there any more (again, incorrect mantra ?? ). Same with the sidhis that I practiced for
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Jeeze louise. This, assuming you are not a troll, fully illustrates my observation that a TM teacher can teach TM properly without ever getting it him or her self. If you can't remember, or at least consciously assimilate, what you are instructed say to meditators about this situation, then go and get checked by an active teacher and let them tell you verbally. L. Jeeze louise, right back at ya, Lawson... there is not much about me that resembles a troll, but I will look into my soul and consider it. Thank you.That troll you referred to would have to be pretty well informed to provide the info that I did in my post, dontchathink...?? A meditator would presumably never know there exists discrepencies in the same TM mantra pronunciations, or, maybe you did not get my post, which BTW surprises me because you seem one of the more astute members here IMHO. But I thank you for your response and advice . Well, the fact that you are hung up on pronunciation of the mantra (or any other aspect of an advanced technique) during meditation suggests to me that you don't get TM, no matter how many times you have taught or checked a person. Whatever is easy. Remember? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: my comments in between below Ones you probably should have read up on or met people who practiced them. :-D You are absolutely right... and THAT I certainly have (to the best of my ability...) over my 58 years and travelling around this beautiful world over ten times by off-road mountain bike .mostly through SE Asia Or did you just stick to the straight and narrow TM path? That is so cute and I mean that in a loving way My practice for SO many years was what MMY recommended after my AEGTC (Age of Enlightenment Governor Training Course...). I am open to getting in the domes again so I will not enumerate my spiritual endeavors here and now. I would think that any honest and sincere person would at least keep to the practices taught by MMY and the TMO when practicing in the dome. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My TM mantra dilemna--- help requested...
Again, I recommend you recall what you told beginning meditators about their own concerns with mantra pronunciation (and extend pronunciation to include whatever lies outside the definition of that word to include whatever advanced technique means to you in your specific context). L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, stevelf ysoy10li@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dixon mdixon.6569@ wrote: Dit-dit-dit-dittos Steve! I've had the exact same frustration for the exact same reasons! There is a very subtle difference in how Lillian pronounced a certain bija and how any other Adv.Tech teacher would pronounce it, especially the Indians. Lillian's was not smooth and easy, more twisted, requiring effort. I did get used to it though and eventually started having nice experiences. Sincere thanks, Mikethis has kinda been a big deal to me over the years. I felt something was off with Lillian's mantra pronunciation, yet she was the supposed teacher that I was to respect in Maharishi's tradition... It was only years later (as I have said), when perusing some renegade websites that I noticed the spelling of the bija in question was the same, yet her pronunciation was quite awkwardly different (from what Maharishi gave me personally). And yet (on that website) the mantra list for me being a male and made an initiator in 1972 was right on. And their advanced technique list was a first for me to see, so it was all a bit of a surprise. A very frustrating surprise at that. Some might say the confusion comes from my snooping around, but, we are not victims anymore with silly secrets and misdirected and inappropriate loyalties when it comes TO OUR PERSONAL EVOLUTION... I appreciate you reply and you have freed me from my inner isolation. Thank you !
