[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Cleaning up some stuff from last week: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity no_reply@ wrote: snip When I hear criticisms of MMY, some of which I make, I understand the reaction of the TB. Imagine if we talked about Jesus to Christians the way we talk about MMY? Bu...bu...but Jesus is the focal point of a *religion*, and the TM TBs here keep telling us over and over that TM is *not* a religion. Therefore Maharishi is Just Another Guy. Why shouldn't one talk about him just like we'd talk about any other guy? Since TM is not a religion and he is not the focal point of a religion, why should we cut him any special breaks? :-) Not saying we shouldn't, just that the TBs must be horrified. Clearly some of them *are* horrified, but there is a big difference in my opinion in how the more balanced and sane members of FFL *react* to criticism of MMY or TM and how the...uh...less sane members react. People like Peter and Robert and L.Shaddai have no problem responding to criticism of Maharishi and presenting their contrary and positive views of the man *without* feeling a need to demonize the critic. They merely present their view, and allow the critics to present theirs. Others seem capable only of demonizing the critics. *As I predicted last week*, this new year has started off with a veritable shitstorm of demonization, mainly of me, but with a little reserved for Vaj, who isn't even around this week. No, this isn't true, and Barry knows it. What occurred was not what Barry predicted (nor did he even predict what he claims he did above). I knew he'd get all excited when I made a big batch of posts last Friday night and somehow miss my explanation of why I was doing so. He can go back and look it up if he's interested. But the really interesting thing is that he read those posts and came away with the impression that they were *mainly about him*. In fact, of the 21 posts, only seven even mentioned him, and of those, most were in response to his demonizations (direct or indirect) of me. Only four concerned Vaj. (And what sinister significance does Barry attach to the fact that Vaj isn't even around this week?? In all cases, I was responding to posts that people had made the prior week. Vaj doesn't send me his schedule in advance so I know when to comment on his previous posts.) If Barry wants to take pride in the fact that he can predict that if he leaves a batch of posts demonizing and lying about me, he's going to get a batch from me in return (but without any lies), he should go for it. He doesn't have much else to take pride in, goodness knows. Oh, yeah, and in that prediction post he also swore he wasn't going to mention me this year, even indirectly. This is *hilarious*: As I said last week, this is how they have been TAUGHT to react. If someone criticizes Maharishi, their first reaction is to do *anything* they can think of to demonize the critic, just as if (as you said above) they were fervent Christians and that critic had dared to criticize Jesus. Or just as if they were fervent Obamabots and the critic had dared to criticize The One. guffaw Free clue, Barry: reacting strongly to criticism of a popular leader does NOT mean that whatever the leader leads is somehow a stealth religion. If you were to compare the reactions of Obamabots here to criticism of Obama and the reactions of TM defenders to criticism of Maharishi, you'd see very little difference. In fact, I'll bet you'd find the former were significantly more angry than the latter. And just to wipe up the last of the Jyotish test mess, another knee-slapper from a different post of Barry's: This is the They aren't really criticizing me, they are criticizing my beliefs...what they really hate is what I believe in argument that True Believers trot out over and over. Please note that this is a typical and well- documented cult tactic used to make a criticism of a *particular individual* seem as if it's really a criticism of the group the cultist is attempting to appeal to and gain sympathy from. Cracks me up. This is *precisely* what those of us who objected to Barry's proposed test were trying to get across to him when he accused us of being TBs: We were criticizing *Barry*, not the notion that Jyotish might not be infallible. The They aren't really criticizing me, they are criticizing my beliefs...what they really hate is what I believe in argument is the one *Barry* was using to demonize *us*.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Back in the day, Maharishi wanted MIU graduates to be given a printout that showed their progress toward enlightenment. The idea was to run a baseline measurement upon entering the University to compare to a final assessment upon graduation. Apparently they ran into some problems with that idea - as with most of MMY's ideas, huh? If the school were more ecumenical, they could be a center for such research, teaming up with Buddhists and others interested in determining markers of awakening. That would have been kinda cool. From: Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net To: Patrick Gillam jpgil...@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 10:45:07 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote: I'm with Hugo on this one. I thought it was Maharishi University's job to determine the physiological parameters of higher states of consciousness. And of course you're exactly right, that was one of the good things about MMY: opening up the field of meditation research by acknowledging these realities. We all have physical bodies last time I checked! The Two Truths, the relative and absolute, arise simultaneously and inseparably, so anyone trying to claim they're somehow beyond confirmation via some absolutist criteria should immediately be considered suspect. And the same goes with all the traditional criteria: they're there for a reason, and MMY did authentically enumerate some of them. It's interesting to me how offended the enlightened are when this is mentioned. I've seen a number of people be tested, myself included and it was extremely helpful for not falling into self-delusion and self-deception.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: Raunch, remember that there are guys who belong to FFL. Guys who paid the ultimate price for society and the survival of the Human Race: we married women. We know from experience that what our fathers taught us is forever true: that arguing with a woman is like trying to read a newspaper in the wind. Careful, dude. Your fathers' analogy was insufficient, because at some point the wind actually stops blowing. A couple of the female bags of hot wind on FFL never do. :-) We know why so many men die earlier than their wives: because they can. Funny. And possibly true. :-) We know what it's like to marry a women though we're not quite what they were looking for in a mate, but close enough, we can be trained. Wasn't there a Broadway show at one point called I love you, you're perfect, now change? I think that the last word on this subject belongs to scifi writer Robert Heinlein: Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal L.Shaddai@ wrote: Raunch, remember that there are guys who belong to FFL. Guys who paid the ultimate price for society and the survival of the Human Race: we married women. We know from experience that what our fathers taught us is forever true: that arguing with a woman is like trying to read a newspaper in the wind. Careful, dude. Your fathers' analogy was insufficient, because at some point the wind actually stops blowing. A couple of the female bags of hot wind on FFL never do. :-) Old habits die hard. Barry, you just slammed Judy and perhaps me or dawn11 for no apparent reason. There is no honor in starting a stink just for the hell of it. Why not make your New Year's resolution and all those statistics you slaved over count for something? Barry wrote: But my resolution is to keep trying, and hopefully in 2009 the percentage of my posts that mention her [Judy] will be 0%. Hopefully. Wish me luck, all of you who have urged this. Message #203158 (Yes, indirect mentions count.) I'll do my best to keep the tone on FF Life civil by staying out of trench warfare with you, but I'll return fire if necessary. It's easy to sacrifice integrity if you don't have much to begin with. Try harder. We know why so many men die earlier than their wives: because they can. Funny. And possibly true. :-) We know what it's like to marry a women though we're not quite what they were looking for in a mate, but close enough, we can be trained. Wasn't there a Broadway show at one point called I love you, you're perfect, now change? I think that the last word on this subject belongs to scifi writer Robert Heinlein: Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of enlightened_dawn11 Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 12:16 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions that they wanted to build monumental tributes to him was something he could not and would not reject at the end of his life. They did not come up with the idea of building Towers of Invincibility, World's Tallest Building, etc. Your calling him the Maharishi implies you never spent much time around him. If you had, you would have observed that he was a cornucopia of such ideas. Few others came up with anything novel. Maharishi was the idea man. Others tried to fulfill his ideas. yes, i have heard this too, that the Maharishi came up with the ideas. seems appropriate. the point i was making was that his ideas were in response to what he saw as the needs of those around him and dedicated to him.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 10:19 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions Robert: I didn't know who Ravi was, at the time, but the image of him, outside, all that time, wearing nothing but a dhoti and a blanket, impresses me, to this day. Rick: I helped set up the stage that day. There was an electric heater a few feet away from him, blowing on him. Now I have coffee in my nose! Thanks Rick! Ordinarily that Ayur Vedic treatment costs $1000, so you owe me one.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of enlightened_dawn11 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:19 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of enlightened_dawn11 Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 12:16 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions that they wanted to build monumental tributes to him was something he could not and would not reject at the end of his life. They did not come up with the idea of building Towers of Invincibility, World's Tallest Building, etc. Your calling him the Maharishi implies you never spent much time around him. If you had, you would have observed that he was a cornucopia of such ideas. Few others came up with anything novel. Maharishi was the idea man. Others tried to fulfill his ideas. yes, i have heard this too, that the Maharishi came up with the ideas. seems appropriate. the point i was making was that his ideas were in response to what he saw as the needs of those around him and dedicated to him. So those around him needed the world's tallest building, to heap praise on Robert Mugabe, etc.?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of enlightened_dawn11 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:19 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer rick@ wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of enlightened_dawn11 Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 12:16 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife% 40yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions that they wanted to build monumental tributes to him was something he could not and would not reject at the end of his life. They did not come up with the idea of building Towers of Invincibility, World's Tallest Building, etc. Your calling him the Maharishi implies you never spent much time around him. If you had, you would have observed that he was a cornucopia of such ideas. Few others came up with anything novel. Maharishi was the idea man. Others tried to fulfill his ideas. yes, i have heard this too, that the Maharishi came up with the ideas. seems appropriate. the point i was making was that his ideas were in response to what he saw as the needs of those around him and dedicated to him. So those around him needed the world's tallest building, to heap praise on Robert Mugabe, etc.? if they stuck around, they apparently did. given that the Maharishi was not a personal guru, he was nonetheless a master imo at providing the conditions to break significant boundaries in the minds of his followers.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, BillyG. wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: the grace of enlightenment can only be known through a receptive consciousness. for those who DEMAND PROOF of personal enlightenment, they might as well be chasing a kite in a hundred mile an hour wind. This contradicts MMYs teachings on enlightenment completely. Namely, that it is another state of consciousness and can be measured like all the others. [snip] Your point needs elaboration, like did MMY say you could objectively 'measure' enlightenment, and if so, how? I'm with Hugo on this one. I thought it was Maharishi University's job to determine the physiological parameters of higher states of consciousness.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: Probably many Buddhists, not gaining any headway towards fulfillment due to their futile moodmaking in this and former lives seek the solace of this life's past activities; past opportunities opening upp early in their twenties, but so utterly vasted. I thing I learned on this forum is how the term moodmaking is such an insult. Kind of interesting. What I find interesting is the way that both Nabby and ED11 use Buddhist as an insult. That's just *classic* Shankaracharya religious bigotry; Shankara did the same thing. But what makes it funniest is that Vaj and I have said many times that neither of us is any kind of formal Buddhist. Both of us have studied in that tradition, and appreciate it, but I know that I'm not a member of any Buddhist sangha, and I don't think Vaj is. When I hear criticisms of MMY, some of which I make, I understand the reaction of the TB. Imagine if we talked about Jesus to Christians the way we talk about MMY? Bu...bu...but Jesus is the focal point of a *religion*, and the TM TBs here keep telling us over and over that TM is *not* a religion. Therefore Maharishi is Just Another Guy. Why shouldn't one talk about him just like we'd talk about any other guy? Since TM is not a religion and he is not the focal point of a religion, why should we cut him any special breaks? :-) Not saying we shouldn't, just that the TBs must be horrified. Clearly some of them *are* horrified, but there is a big difference in my opinion in how the more balanced and sane members of FFL *react* to criticism of MMY or TM and how the...uh...less sane members react. People like Peter and Robert and L.Shaddai have no problem responding to criticism of Maharishi and presenting their contrary and positive views of the man *without* feeling a need to demonize the critic. They merely present their view, and allow the critics to present theirs. Others seem capable only of demonizing the critics. *As I predicted last week*, this new year has started off with a veritable shitstorm of demonization, mainly of me, but with a little reserved for Vaj, who isn't even around this week. As I said last week, this is how they have been TAUGHT to react. If someone criticizes Maharishi, their first reaction is to do *anything* they can think of to demonize the critic, just as if (as you said above) they were fervent Christians and that critic had dared to criticize Jesus. I guess we should be thankful that the TM religion hasn't had time to establish itself yet. Give them eleven centuries and they'll not only attempt to demonize anyone who dares to criticize their holy leader, they'll burn them at the stake like the Inquisition did. :-) Can't you imagine the stories in the Fairfield newspapers when the TM religion *really* gets rolling? MAN EXECUTED FOR FAILING TO BOW The Raja in charge of the Ministry Of Holy Retaliation And Protection Of The Purity Of The Teaching has announced that yet another heretic has been executed for failing to offer proper respect to our beloved Maharishi. The heretic brazenly walked past the Holy Maharishi Tower Of Invincibility without fall- ing to his knees and bowing three times, as we all know that everyone should. He was apprehending by uniformed members of the SS (Samadhi Squad), who dragged him to the Min- istry, where he was pronounced guilty and summarily garroted in public. As is trad- itional, the heretic's remains will be not buried or cremated, but thrown onto a trash heap just outside the heavily-fortified border of Heaven On Earthland (formerly called 'Fairfield'), where his stinking corpse will serve as a reminder to other visitors that when they come to our town they have to obey our holy rules. The Raja finished his announcement by saying, Oh yeah...we're *still* not a religion. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Turq wrote: But what makes it funniest is that Vaj and I have said many times that neither of us is any kind of formal Buddhist. But in fact, Fred Lenz founded his very own religion called 'American Buddhism'; but it remains to be seen if you were a leader in that cult, like you claim to be in the Marshy cult. Go figure. Others seem capable only of demonizing the critics. So, you want to 'demonize' the TMers? This doesn't even make any sense, Turq. Apparently you wanted TM to be a religion, but when you found that it was just a relaxation technique, you became bitter and disappointed, so you walked away and joined another cult led by a guy who proclaimed himself as God incarnate, the tenth Vishnu Avatara. Go figure. ...who dragged him to the Min- istry, where he was pronounced guilty and summarily garroted in public. Oh, so now if anyone criticizes you, they are out to 'garrot you' in public. So you think your critics, Jim and Judy, are trying to kill you? Poor Barry.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@... wrote: given that the Maharishi was not a personal guru, he was nonetheless a master imo at providing the conditions to break significant boundaries in the minds of his followers. That is what He did, 24 hours a day, year after year for decades. It was His job, His mission. Even 30 years after they had a personal glimpse of this Yogi of Yogi's they still are exposing their continued breaking of boundaries here on FFL. As if the challenges Maharishi presented to them, and the feeling of failure for not being able to handle such challenges will never leave them. I have reason to believe that He also did this job to the satisfaction of all the Masters of Wisdom, including Brahmanada Saraswathi and our Eldest Brother of Brothers, Maitreya.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 1:41 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Robert Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 2:26 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions I remember, one time, when Maharishi was visiting Fairfield, and they were starting to build the first dome. Bramacharya Shankar, was sitting, 'In the Dome', chanting the Vedas... At the time, it was far too cold to be outside, for any length of time, as it felt like it was about minus ten degrees outside. The dome hadn't been completed yet, and Ravi was shaking with cold, by the time Maharishi finally came to bless the dome. I didn't know who Ravi was, at the time, but the image of him, outside, all that time, wearing nothing but a dhoti and a blanket, impresses me, to this day. I helped set up the stage that day. There was an electric heater a few feet away from him, blowing on him. Yes, but I still remember that Maharishi was a bit late, and this guy was freezing by the time he appeared. I was waiting in an adjacent Frat, next to where he was staying, because it was too damn cold for me...that day... But, thanks for the heater, Rick...that probably saved his life. R.G. I didn't provide the heater, it was just there. But I remember that someone offered him a blanket, and he waved it off, as if to say to the crowd watching, I am impervious to the cold. But I knew the heater was there, keeping him warm. So that seemed rather disingenuous to me at the time.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
I have reason to believe I wonder what those reasons are... that He also did this job to the satisfaction of all the Masters of Wisdom, including Brahmanada Saraswathi and our Eldest Brother of Brothers, Maitreya. I didn't know Maitreya was a black man! So the savior of mankind is a brother huh? Hey wait a second...we just elected a brother to the White House...you don't think... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: given that the Maharishi was not a personal guru, he was nonetheless a master imo at providing the conditions to break significant boundaries in the minds of his followers. That is what He did, 24 hours a day, year after year for decades. It was His job, His mission. Even 30 years after they had a personal glimpse of this Yogi of Yogi's they still are exposing their continued breaking of boundaries here on FFL. As if the challenges Maharishi presented to them, and the feeling of failure for not being able to handle such challenges will never leave them. I have reason to believe that He also did this job to the satisfaction of all the Masters of Wisdom, including Brahmanada Saraswathi and our Eldest Brother of Brothers, Maitreya.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 4:06 PM, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: The Vedic Atom was a boiling cauldron of 10 rigidly inflexible egos with strong personalities all bumping into each other Raunch, remember that there are guys who belong to FFL. Guys who paid the ultimate price for society and the survival of the Human Race: we married women. We know from experience that what our fathers taught us is forever true: that arguing with a woman is like trying to read a newspaper in the wind. We know why so many men die earlier than their wives: because they can. We know what it's like to marry a women though we're not quite what they were looking for in a mate, but close enough, we can be trained. We know what it's like to be constantly told that we're just boys with toys and that we never grow up. We know how difficult it is for our womenfolk to bring us around, as the one who wears the pants and ultimately makes the final choice, to making the decision the wife had already made. A good morning laugh to go with my morning tea!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Robert: I didn't know who Ravi was, at the time, but the image of him, outside, all that time, wearing nothing but a dhoti and a blanket, impresses me, to this day. Rick: I helped set up the stage that day. There was an electric heater a few feet away from him, blowing on him. Now I have coffee in my nose! Thanks Rick! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 2:26 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions I remember, one time, when Maharishi was visiting Fairfield, and they were starting to build the first dome. Bramacharya Shankar, was sitting, 'In the Dome', chanting the Vedas... At the time, it was far too cold to be outside, for any length of time, as it felt like it was about minus ten degrees outside. The dome hadn't been completed yet, and Ravi was shaking with cold, by the time Maharishi finally came to bless the dome. I didn't know who Ravi was, at the time, but the image of him, outside, all that time, wearing nothing but a dhoti and a blanket, impresses me, to this day. I helped set up the stage that day. There was an electric heater a few feet away from him, blowing on him.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: What I find interesting is the way that both Nabby and ED11 use Buddhist as an insult. -snip- neither one of us has used Buddhist as an insult. Nabby has rightly called both you and vaj hobby buddhists, which is not only spot on but hilarious too, and which you confirm. i have said that buddhism is an ineffectual religion, both because it does not provide a reliable means of transcending and has done absolutely nothing to further world peace, which is not an insult, just the way i see it. this is precisely why i referred to you earlier as the disease of FFL-- you stir stuff up constantly, based on lies and half-truths, all to further your arrogance and ego. your choice dude, but don't expect to get away with it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: given that the Maharishi was not a personal guru, he was nonetheless a master imo at providing the conditions to break significant boundaries in the minds of his followers. That is what He did, 24 hours a day, year after year for decades. It was His job, His mission. Even 30 years after they had a personal glimpse of this Yogi of Yogi's they still are exposing their continued breaking of boundaries here on FFL. As if the challenges Maharishi presented to them, and the feeling of failure for not being able to handle such challenges will never leave them. it gets rather tiresome, this endless blaming of someone, anyone, for their failures. so childish.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: TurquoiseB Even given the problems associated with certifying enlightenment, I still have to believe that a trad- ition like this in which it is permitted to announce your enlightened is more likely to actually produce enlightenment than a tradition in which announcing the good news may result in you being expelled and declared a heretic. You may be right, and as a consequence, many in the TMO who wake up decide it's time for them to leave. As I said, it's an incubator. Incubators get a little crowded once you've hatched. I would have used the metaphor of the playpen, not the incubator. Those who have spent a number of years in a nanny environment that constantly told them about the horrors of the outside world and that they should fear them probably don't want to spend a lot of time there once they learn that there is nothing to be feared, and never was. They go outside and play and leave the fearful behind.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: On Behalf Of Stu Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:35 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions The point here is that if your running the show you can't have a bunch of TMers running around saying they're enlightened and breaking off and start their own clubs, temples, boutiques and spas. Once a follower is certified enlightened, then how can you hold bend them to your whim? How can you turn a profit with that sort of competition? As MMY said to a friend of mine, allegedly with tears in his eyes, before giving him the boot: You're getting too independent, and I can't stand it. I remember this side of Maharishi well, and saw it clearly when several of his favorites grew up and realized that they no longer needed him as a Daddy figure in their lives. They tried their best to leave gracefully, with thanks on their lips and gratitude in their hearts. But all that it seemed that Maharishi could see in their leaving was that they were rejecting him. The difference in the look on each of their faces was striking. On the one hand, a person full of life and hope and wonder and light, looking for- ward to leaving the nest and diving into the big, wide world to discover more of its beauty and hopefully to share some of their own hope, wonder and light with that world. On the other hand (Maharishi), a look of hurt, disappointment, and spiteful anger at being rejected. Seems to me that a real Daddy would be happy when one of his kids grew up and left the nest. He wouldn't spend the next month in a funk, bad- mouthing the kid for leaving and making dire pronouncements about the kid going to hell and warning everyone not to listen to anything he said the way Maharishi did with these former students. I really do think sometimes that the whole TM movement was Maharishi playing out the jealousy he felt that he didn't get the lion's share of attention from Guru Dev back in his ashram. There he was Just Another Monk, as he should have been, but was always hoping for Guru Dev to focus on him non-stop and tell him how won- derful he was. And that's how he assumed that his students should act towards him. Whatever good Maharishi did -- for individuals and the world -- was undercut and rendered tragic for me by his last days, which were straight out of King Lear. He gathered around him all of the Rajas and all of the rich meditators and forced them to compete with each other like Regan and Goneril and Ophelia in a contest to see who could praise him the most gloriously. I'm sorry, but in my book that's how tragic characters from a Shakespearean drama end their lives, not how enlightened beings end them.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Turq wrote: I remember this side of Maharishi well, and saw it clearly when several of his favorites grew up and realized that they no longer needed him as a Daddy figure in their lives... Maybe so, and it took you what, over 24 years to leave your two Daddie figures, the Marshy and the Rama. And maybe now you're trashing the Marshy and the Rama just because you were not one of their favorites. LOL! We are not really separate beings of light. That's a dream we are having, the dream of multiplicity. Meditation takes us beyond the moment to eternal awareness. Main Page: www.ramaquotes.com Mysticism - Dreaming: www.ramaquotes.com/html/dreaming.html Read comments by Uncle Tantra: From: Buddhist Monk Subject: Quotations by Zen Master Rama Newsgroups: alt.meditation, alt.meditation.transcendental Date: Fri, Jan 13 2006 http://tinyurl.com/6v7owc
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: The demand for proof is from the mind and the mind no matter what is offered can always hold doubt. I believe the doubt arises out of the ego's need for support and confirmation. So an enlightened person is compared to this conceptual template of what the ego needs an enlightened person to be. I'd like to offer an opinion from the cheap seats in the spiritual Mela here. The demand for proof for the claims about enlightenment come from being familiar with human's tendency to bullshit themselves and others. We have a piss poor track record for truth and skepticism is appropriate IMO. Let's double the need for skepticism when Maharishi set himself up to be judged this way by insisting that enlightenment DID have plenty of relative measurable qualities. These included higher intelligence, creativity, and other wonderful personal qualities up to and including magical super normal ones which he himself said were the way to test the state. Some here have said that he had to lie to us to keep us going on the path. And we are being small minded to hold him to his words. We are supposed to give him a pass for lying about this but then turn around an believe his other claims? I understand that we can change our internal states with techniques like meditation. I also had wonderful experiences of darshon with Maharishi personally. But these experiences were in a specific context of long waiting, much meditation and interestingly enough, if you hung out with him for more than a few days it could dry up. It isn't my business how people interpret what their internal states mean. But my need for evidence for the claims of enlightenment are coming from the same good place of any seeker of truth. I want to accept less bullshit from myself and others. This IMO is a virtue, not a personal limitation. (snip) This might be simple enough...when the in-breath merges into the out-breath, then one is enlightened. When you realize that you are consciousness, then you are enlightened. When you can sit and meditate, and witness at will, then you are enlightened. We are practicing witnessing in meditation; that is all that it is. Practice witnessing, and you will be enlightened, in any moment, in any time. R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard Williams willy...@... wrote: Turq wrote: I remember this side of Maharishi well, and saw it clearly when several of his favorites grew up and realized that they no longer needed him as a Daddy figure in their lives... Maybe so, and it took you what, over 24 years to leave your two Daddie figures, the Marshy and the Rama. And maybe now you're trashing the Marshy and the Rama just because you were not one of their favorites. LOL! We are not really separate beings of light. That's a dream we are having, the dream of multiplicity. Meditation takes us beyond the moment to eternal awareness. Main Page: www.ramaquotes.com Mysticism - Dreaming: www.ramaquotes.com/html/dreaming.html Read comments by Uncle Tantra: From: Buddhist Monk Subject: Quotations by Zen Master Rama Newsgroups: alt.meditation, alt.meditation.transcendental Date: Fri, Jan 13 2006 http://tinyurl.com/6v7owc 'The moment is where there is eternity, not in the past, and not in the future, but in this moment, which you are witnessing, now... R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@... wrote: yes, yes. yes. thanks for the insight into all of this. the Maharishi was all about breaking boundaries, deliberately, fearlessly, and profoundly. if you allowed him to do so, he would smash your ego into nothingness, and you would thank him profusely for it! i hadn't heard the joke about discerning another's state of enlightenment, depending on how much they are personally liked. perfect, and very funny. its all about getting out of the way of the ego. for us to be blessed with both a technique and the technique's results personified leaves me almost speechless. though on the flip side i have often wondered why we all needed to be so fortunate in the first place! lol The biggest smash to my ego was the Vedic Atom. The directive was to agree on everything with ten women. Impossible to do unless the ego completely pulverizes. LOL smashing the Atom. What do you know? I just figured out perhaps Maharishi's intended pun after all these years.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
The biggest smash to my ego was the Vedic Atom. The directive was to agree on everything with ten women. Impossible to do unless the ego completely pulverizes. LOL smashing the Atom. What do you know? I just figured out perhaps Maharishi's intended pun after all these years. I don't really get the spiritual POV on the ego. Other than a person being egotistical and being inflexible with other people which is bad, my life's growth has been to develop a strong ego out of the many forces in youth that smash it down. Growing into a strong sense of ego and self is one way of describing my positive growth. I would view any attempt to smash it to be abusive. Now if you learned to have a strong ego in the midst of other women who were trying to assert theirs, becoming flexible enough to work things out and see another person's POV, that to me is an ego becoming healthy, secure and strong. I think ego gets a really bad rap in spiritual traditions. (Any details about the inevitable pillow fights that you all had would me much appreciated and detailed descriptions could be billed on a minute by minute basis if you wish. I'm just say'n...I'll trade you some tapes of the Vedic Atom Men dancing in cheeks-chaps if you like.) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: yes, yes. yes. thanks for the insight into all of this. the Maharishi was all about breaking boundaries, deliberately, fearlessly, and profoundly. if you allowed him to do so, he would smash your ego into nothingness, and you would thank him profusely for it! i hadn't heard the joke about discerning another's state of enlightenment, depending on how much they are personally liked. perfect, and very funny. its all about getting out of the way of the ego. for us to be blessed with both a technique and the technique's results personified leaves me almost speechless. though on the flip side i have often wondered why we all needed to be so fortunate in the first place! lol The biggest smash to my ego was the Vedic Atom. The directive was to agree on everything with ten women. Impossible to do unless the ego completely pulverizes. LOL smashing the Atom. What do you know? I just figured out perhaps Maharishi's intended pun after all these years.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@... wrote: the grace of enlightenment can only be known through a receptive consciousness. for those who DEMAND PROOF of personal enlightenment, they might as well be chasing a kite in a hundred mile an hour wind. This contradicts MMYs teachings on enlightenment completely. Namely, that it is another state of consciousness and can be measured like all the others.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: the grace of enlightenment can only be known through a receptive consciousness. for those who DEMAND PROOF of personal enlightenment, they might as well be chasing a kite in a hundred mile an hour wind. This contradicts MMYs teachings on enlightenment completely. Namely, that it is another state of consciousness and can be measured like all the others. I think his point is that enlightenment can only be experienced, it cannot be proved objectively to the intellect. Like I told my atheist brother (Harvard graduate), only you can prove God to yourself. Your point needs elaboration, like did MMY say you could objectively 'measure' enlightenment, and if so, how?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: The biggest smash to my ego was the Vedic Atom. The directive was to agree on everything with ten women. Impossible to do unless the ego completely pulverizes. LOL smashing the Atom. What do you know? I just figured out perhaps Maharishi's intended pun after all these years. I don't really get the spiritual POV on the ego. Other than a person being egotistical and being inflexible with other people which is bad, my life's growth has been to develop a strong ego out of the many forces in youth that smash it down. Growing into a strong sense of ego and self is one way of describing my positive growth. I would view any attempt to smash it to be abusive. Now if you learned to have a strong ego in the midst of other women who were trying to assert theirs, becoming flexible enough to work things out and see another person's POV, that to me is an ego becoming healthy, secure and strong. I think ego gets a really bad rap in spiritual traditions. (snip) Poor ego, get's a bad rap, all the time; he's always wrong about everything, and is usually, if not always, afraid of something; Afraid of his own power; afraid to succeed; afraid to fail; afraid to love; afraid to tell the truth; afraid of everything, imaginable...making up stuff, to be afraid about. The ego relates to the mind. Then the mind gets transcended, and ego is lost. It finds itself, now, but does not identify with the mind anymore. It begins to identify more with consciousness, and begins the journey of seeing how: tThis cConsciousness, which he is part and parcel of, is the same consciousness, the animates and governs all of creation, then his ego is identified, with that which cannot be identified, the opposite of the mind's version of ego. When one realizes 'Mind Ego' then one becomes aware of something greater then one's own limited mind. R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: the grace of enlightenment can only be known through a receptive consciousness. for those who DEMAND PROOF of personal enlightenment, they might as well be chasing a kite in a hundred mile an hour wind. This contradicts MMYs teachings on enlightenment completely. Namely, that it is another state of consciousness and can be measured like all the others. context is everything. is enlightenment tangible? yes. so in confirming that, with a set of criteria, the Maharishi moved the experience of enlightenment from one that was mystical and impractical, to one that way dynamic and useful, even to non-monks like us. what the Maharishi was doing was clearing any obstacles for the mind, so that it could move forward confidently in its quest for enlightenment. what he wasn't affirming was the tendency of some to get so hung up on the criteria that they are prevented from taking further steps on their personal path to enlightenment. like one person asking a friend if it is safe to go upstairs, and although the friend affirms the action and even describes the upstairs, the person remains rooted in place, needing more and more proof that the way upward is in fact the way to go. sometimes we just have to start to move upstairs.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: yes, yes. yes. thanks for the insight into all of this. the Maharishi was all about breaking boundaries, deliberately, fearlessly, and profoundly. if you allowed him to do so, he would smash your ego into nothingness, and you would thank him profusely for it! i hadn't heard the joke about discerning another's state of enlightenment, depending on how much they are personally liked. perfect, and very funny. its all about getting out of the way of the ego. for us to be blessed with both a technique and the technique's results personified leaves me almost speechless. though on the flip side i have often wondered why we all needed to be so fortunate in the first place! lol The biggest smash to my ego was the Vedic Atom. The directive was to agree on everything with ten women. Impossible to do unless the ego completely pulverizes. LOL smashing the Atom. What do you know? I just figured out perhaps Maharishi's intended pun after all these years. pretty cool directive-- so simple, yet a challenge worthy of spending time on. interesting that the expression Vedic Atom when seen from an angle of isolation, sounds like the imposition of vedic knowledge on the atom; might is right. this is what draws the ego in and makes the challenge initially alluring, conquering the atom. then after the ego has been softened up, becoming more inclusive, the expression takes on a whole different meaning, with the atom informed by the veda, living from the inside out, the most fundamental unit of material life transformed.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: The biggest smash to my ego was the Vedic Atom. The directive was to agree on everything with ten women. Impossible to do unless the ego completely pulverizes. LOL smashing the Atom. What do you know? I just figured out perhaps Maharishi's intended pun after all these years. I don't really get the spiritual POV on the ego. Other than a person being egotistical and being inflexible with other people which is bad, my life's growth has been to develop a strong ego out of the many forces in youth that smash it down. Growing into a strong sense of ego and self is one way of describing my positive growth. I would view any attempt to smash it to be abusive. Now if you learned to have a strong ego in the midst of other women who were trying to assert theirs, becoming flexible enough to work things out and see another person's POV, that to me is an ego becoming healthy, secure and strong. I think ego gets a really bad rap in spiritual traditions. (snip) Poor ego, get's a bad rap, all the time; he's always wrong about everything, and is usually, if not always, afraid of something; Afraid of his own power; afraid to succeed; afraid to fail; afraid to love; afraid to tell the truth; afraid of everything, imaginable...making up stuff, to be afraid about. Not in a healthy self-actualized or even moderately mature adult its not. My ego was never afraid of transcending. The ego relates to the mind. Then the mind gets transcended, and ego is lost. It finds itself, now, but does not identify with the mind anymore. It begins to identify more with consciousness, and begins the journey of seeing how: tThis cConsciousness, which he is part and parcel of, is the same consciousness, the animates and governs all of creation, then his ego is identified, with that which cannot be identified, the opposite of the mind's version of ego. When one realizes 'Mind Ego' then one becomes aware of something greater then one's own limited mind. R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@... wrote: On Jan 4, 2009, at 2:59 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Whatever good Maharishi did -- for individuals and the world -- was undercut and rendered tragic for me by his last days, which were straight out of King Lear. He gathered around him all of the Rajas and all of the rich meditators and forced them to compete with each other Actually, didn't Lear learn his lesson at the end? Been a long time since I've read it. like Regan and Goneril and Ophelia Cordelia. Back to the books, Barry. :) Cordelia, Ophelia...all those whiny Shakespearean women looked the same. Who can keep them straight? :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: -snip- Seems to me that a real Daddy would be happy when one of his kids grew up and left the nest. He wouldn't spend the next month in a funk, bad- mouthing the kid for leaving and making dire pronouncements about the kid going to hell and warning everyone not to listen to anything he said the way Maharishi did with these former students. never happened this way. just a twisted ego's remembrance. toxic spew - cemented in place with arrogance and fear.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunshine@ wrote: On Jan 4, 2009, at 2:59 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Whatever good Maharishi did -- for individuals and the world -- was undercut and rendered tragic for me by his last days, which were straight out of King Lear. He gathered around him all of the Rajas and all of the rich meditators and forced them to compete with each other Actually, didn't Lear learn his lesson at the end? Been a long time since I've read it. like Regan and Goneril and Ophelia Cordelia. Back to the books, Barry. :) Cordelia, Ophelia...all those whiny Shakespearean women looked the same. Who can keep them straight? :-) interesting freudian slip B. seeing as all these women were played by men on the stage, are you perhaps talking about yourself when musing, who can keep [me] straight?. :)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
An unsnippable post. As the only impartial member of FFL, I vote this post as a keeper, as one should be indexed as Is TM a Religion?. There are two aspects to the religion question. One is during the teaching does it look, smell and taste like a religion. Well, yes and no. It has aspects of a religion like the puja but during the initial 7 steps no worldview is presented, so no it's not a religion. Then there's the question of externally does it appear to be a religion? I think in what may be one of the best times for well worded threads and that Barry's post definitely hits the nail on the head. The head guy appears to believed it was a religion. On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 6:44 AM, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: This is very true, Stu, but I think it can be considered a mistake only if one's intent IS to create a religion. It seems to me that in the realm of traditions that seek enlightenment, a teacher has a clear- cut choice. Either he can focus on the enlight- enment of others, or he can focus on getting his followers to worship him. You can't do both. If you allow your students to become enlightened, or to be recognized as enlightened, then almost by definition they then become on a par with the teacher. Only a teacher who really cares more about the enlightenment of others than he cares about the exaltation of himself allows his students to be on the same plane that he is. I think that, in retrospect, it is clear that Maharishi sought to create a religion. What other reason could be proposed for the creation of the gaudy phalluses called Maharishi Towers Of Invincibility around the world? What can these phalluses actually DO to facilitate the enlightenment of others? Do you miraculously realize your enlightenment by circumabulating them? Will the mere sight of them release stress in the diligent seeker and bring them to their own real- ization? I think not. I think that their purpose was to attempt to create a religion with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi as its focal point. Think of the hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) being spent to erect these enormous dicks around the world. Now think of the number of people who could have been taught basic TM (and thus, theoretically at least, had a method of real- izing their own enlightenment provided to them) for the same amount of money. Now think about the word priorities. At the beginning of his teaching, Maharishi used to talk about the need to raise money so that TM could continue to be taught. At the end of it, the only thing he seemed to care about was how many phalluses could be built with his name on them. Call me a cynic, but I don't see that last desire on his part as having anything to do with wanting to bring enlightenment to others.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
just to clarify, you propose that the Maharishi thought he would found a religion on the basis of allowing his followers to erect a few monuments in his name? i seriously doubt this construction project will come to full fruition, anymore than the myriad projects of the TMO, Vedaland, tallest building in the world, university in Kansas, capitals of the A of E, etc, etc, etc, have. the Maharishi was not a personal guru, but for those around him, carrying out the work of his lifetime, which was to enlighten as many of us as possible, he was profoundly grateful. that they wanted to build monumental tributes to him was something he could not and would not reject at the end of his life. Barry's most unflattering interpretation of this last impulse of the Maharishi's heart springs from Barry's completely wack-o idea and belief that he is greater and wiser and more compassionate than the Maharishi ever was. this technical writer ex-pat, who never did much of anything outside of satisfying his own sensory pleasures and egoic desires, believes he of all of us, is greater than Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, has more to offer, thinks more deeply, and is a better person overall. Barry is nothing more than an impulse here on FFL for us to lead our lives wisely, a cautionary tale in place for the rest of us to watch and beware, or ignore. little of what he says is of any value at all, and even for these motes of insight, he expects to be greatly lauded, this smallest of men. Barry Wright, the cosmic joke personified. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: An unsnippable post. As the only impartial member of FFL, I vote this post as a keeper, as one should be indexed as Is TM a Religion?. -snip-
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
(snip) Not in a healthy self-actualized or even moderately mature adult its not. My ego was never afraid of transcending. (snip) This is a Gem. My ego isn't afraid to transcend... Wow. Beautifully put! Excellent! Bravo... R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii...@... wrote: (snip) Not in a healthy self-actualized or even moderately mature adult its not. My ego was never afraid of transcending. (snip) This is a Gem. My ego isn't afraid to transcend... Wow. Beautifully put! Excellent! Bravo... R.G. Are you winning word games of your own creation? Kinda douchey IMO. My post was in response to your claims about the fears of the ego. Your post was just another personal put down dressed up in spiritual garb. It appears to be one of the favorite ego trips for those on spiritual paths, to ridicule people who don't follow their language conventions used to make themselves feel special. Everybody on this board has had your precious transcending experience. We don't all speak about it in exactly the way that you do because some of us think about it differently now.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@... wrote: Barry's most unflattering interpretation of this last impulse of the Maharishi's heart springs from Barry's completely wack-o idea and belief that he is greater and wiser and more compassionate than the Maharishi ever was. Unfortunately you hit the nail headon in this one. I say unfortunately because I find it saddening that someone can be so full of venom and hate towards universal knowledge as the Turq and Vaj examplify. (This is just an example, Vaj never met Maharishi and the Turq was denied further access due to security concerns) Probably many Buddhists, not gaining any headway towards fulfillment due to their futile moodmaking in this and former lives seek the solace of this life's past activities; past opportunities opening upp early in their twenties, but so utterly vasted. A past, and a glimpse into the Heaven on Earth in the company of The Yogi of Yogis so bitterly lost to arrogance and ego.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote: Probably many Buddhists, not gaining any headway towards fulfillment due to their futile moodmaking in this and former lives seek the solace of this life's past activities; past opportunities opening upp early in their twenties, but so utterly vasted. I thing I learned on this forum is how the term moodmaking is such an insult. Kind of interesting. When I hear criticisms of MMY, some of which I make, I understand the reaction of the TB. Imagine if we talked about Jesus to Christians the way we talk about MMY? Not saying we shouldn't, just that the TBs must be horrified.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: Everybody on this board has had your precious transcending experience. We don't all speak about it in exactly the way that you do because some of us think about it differently now. Ehm... curtis, for example; how did transcendentalism translate into hillbillyism in your own life ? And why do you think about it different now ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Ehm... curtis, for example; how did transcendentalism translate into hillbillyism in your own life ? And why do you think about it different now ? I don't get why you think this is an insult to me Nabby. You might as well be calling me an Alaskan for how well this term relates to my background. But I hear your mean-spiritedness and your malevolent spirit loud and clear through your clumsy misuse of American terms. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: Everybody on this board has had your precious transcending experience. We don't all speak about it in exactly the way that you do because some of us think about it differently now. Ehm... curtis, for example; how did transcendentalism translate into hillbillyism in your own life ? And why do you think about it different now ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Stu buttspli...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: snip The first thing that strikes me about what you say (and for the record I have no reason to disagree with any of it based on my own exper- ience in the distant TMO past) is that it is likely that the *result* of this is that NO ONE WILL *EVER* BE CERTIFIED AS ENLIGHTENED BY THE SPIRITUAL TRADITION CREATED BY MAHARISHI MAHESH YOGI. snip I think your on to something Barry. I am reminded by a huge mistake John Smith made when he put together the Mormon religion. He allowed followers to have independent visions. In every major religion only the founder is allowed to have visions. Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Arjuna, for example all get to have their visions but followers are not to privy to the special powers. This is very true, Stu, but I think it can be considered a mistake only if one's intent IS to create a religion. It seems to me that in the realm of traditions that seek enlightenment, a teacher has a clear- cut choice. Either he can focus on the enlight- enment of others, or he can focus on getting his followers to worship him. You can't do both. If you allow your students to become enlightened, or to be recognized as enlightened, then almost by definition they then become on a par with the teacher. Only a teacher who really cares more about the enlightenment of others than he cares about the exaltation of himself allows his students to be on the same plane that he is. I think that, in retrospect, it is clear that Maharishi sought to create a religion. What other reason could be proposed for the creation of the gaudy phalluses called Maharishi Towers Of Invincibility around the world? What can these phalluses actually DO to facilitate the enlightenment of others? Do you miraculously realize your enlightenment by circumabulating them? Will the mere sight of them release stress in the diligent seeker and bring them to their own real- ization? I think not. I think that their purpose was to attempt to create a religion with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi as its focal point. Think of the hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) being spent to erect these enormous dicks around the world. Now think of the number of people who could have been taught basic TM (and thus, theoretically at least, had a method of real- izing their own enlightenment provided to them) for the same amount of money. Now think about the word priorities. At the beginning of his teaching, Maharishi used to talk about the need to raise money so that TM could continue to be taught. At the end of it, the only thing he seemed to care about was how many phalluses could be built with his name on them. Call me a cynic, but I don't see that last desire on his part as having anything to do with wanting to bring enlightenment to others.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
On Jan 4, 2009, at 2:59 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Whatever good Maharishi did -- for individuals and the world -- was undercut and rendered tragic for me by his last days, which were straight out of King Lear. He gathered around him all of the Rajas and all of the rich meditators and forced them to compete with each other Actually, didn't Lear learn his lesson at the end? Been a long time since I've read it. like Regan and Goneril and Ophelia Cordelia. Back to the books, Barry. :) in a contest to see who could praise him the most gloriously. I'm sorry, but in my book that's how tragic characters from a Shakespearean drama end their lives, not how enlightened beings end them. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: Probably many Buddhists, not gaining any headway towards fulfillment due to their futile moodmaking in this and former lives seek the solace of this life's past activities; past opportunities opening upp early in their twenties, but so utterly vasted. I thing I learned on this forum is how the term moodmaking is such an insult. Kind of interesting. When I hear criticisms of MMY, some of which I make, I understand the reaction of the TB. Well written and I respect what you say. Unfortunately you did not get my point. There are no TB's here except Buddhist fundamentalists bent on disapprooving anything His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Shri Shri Brahmanandha Saraswathi of Jyothir Math ever did, said or wrote. My comments was a comment to the fact that was easily observed by those present at the time; many Buddhists's who came into contact with His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in Europe and the USA in the 60's somehow freaked out because they understood Him, knowledwise, to represent the Living Buddha. Rightly so. Many of these fellows where rather advanced souls. In this please understand that I stress the word represent; I am not saying that Maharishi is or ever pretended to be the Buddha. Yet it created a fear in many Buddhists that His Holiness would claim that role. As you know, He did not. Does He represent The Buddha in all He did ? Yes, obviously.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: Probably many Buddhists, not gaining any headway towards fulfillment due to their futile moodmaking in this and former lives seek the solace of this life's past activities; past opportunities opening upp early in their twenties, but so utterly vasted. I thing I learned on this forum is how the term moodmaking is such an insult. Kind of interesting. When I hear criticisms of MMY, some of which I make, I understand the reaction of the TB. Well written and I respect what you say. Unfortunately you did not get my point. There are no TB's here except Buddhist fundamentalists bent on disapprooving anything His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Shri Shri Brahmanandha Saraswathi of Jyothir Math ever did, said or wrote. My comments was a comment to the fact that was easily observed by those present at the time; many Buddhists's who came into contact with His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in Europe and the USA in the 60's somehow freaked out because they understood Him, knowledwise, to represent the Living Buddha. Rightly so. Many of these fellows where rather advanced souls. In this please understand that I stress the word represent; I am not saying that Maharishi is or ever pretended to be the Buddha. Yet it created a fear in many Buddhists that His Holiness would claim that role. As you know, He did not. Does He represent The Buddha in all He did ? Yes, obviously. really wise post-- thanks. funny about the buddhists feeling more comfortable about worshipping a dead guy than revering a live one.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutp...@... wrote: NOT ONE! Areed Turq, the TMO has not produced one enlightened personaccording to the powers that be conception of enlightenment. (snip) What about Shri Shri Ravi Shankar...is he regarded as enlightened, By, the powers that be? I remember, one time, when Maharishi was visiting Fairfield, and they were starting to build the first dome. Bramacharya Shankar, was sitting, 'In the Dome', chanting the Vedas... At the time, it was far too cold to be outside, for any length of time, as it felt like it was about minus ten degrees outside. The dome hadn't been completed yet, and Ravi was shaking with cold, by the time Maharishi finally came to bless the dome. I didn't know who Ravi was, at the time, but the image of him, outside, all that time, wearing nothing but a dhoti and a blanket, impresses me, to this day. R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: Probably many Buddhists, not gaining any headway towards fulfillment due to their futile moodmaking in this and former lives seek the solace of this life's past activities; past opportunities opening upp early in their twenties, but so utterly vasted. I thing I learned on this forum is how the term moodmaking is such an insult. Kind of interesting. When I hear criticisms of MMY, some of which I make, I understand the reaction of the TB. Well written and I respect what you say. Unfortunately you did not get my point. There are no TB's here except Buddhist fundamentalists bent on disapprooving anything His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Shri Shri Brahmanandha Saraswathi of Jyothir Math ever did, said or wrote. My comments was a comment to the fact that was easily observed by those present at the time; many Buddhists's who came into contact with His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in Europe and the USA in the 60's somehow freaked out because they understood Him, knowledwise, to represent the Living Buddha. Rightly so. Many of these fellows where rather advanced souls. In this please understand that I stress the word represent; I am not saying that Maharishi is or ever pretended to be the Buddha. Yet it created a fear in many Buddhists that His Holiness would claim that role. As you know, He did not. Does He represent The Buddha in all He did ? Yes, obviously. I always felt, that Maharishi was more like Socrates, and that he was still pissed that he drank the poison in that lifetime... And was also pissed off, that the Socratic method of teaching, was a rarity in school, those days, and these days, too... And that there is little left of what Socrates taught. So, this time around, he wanted to make sure, no one could ever forget him... He's pasted his picture in every corner of the world, and has associated himself, and his picture, with 'The Teaching'... R.G. R.G.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- On Sun, 1/4/09, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: Unfortunately you hit the nail headon in this one. I say unfortunately because I find it saddening that someone can be so full of venom and hate towards universal knowledge as the Turq and Vaj examplify. (This is just an example, Vaj never met Maharishi and the Turq was denied further access due to security concerns) Probably many Buddhists, not gaining any headway towards fulfillment due to their futile moodmaking in this and former lives seek the solace of this life's past activities; past opportunities opening upp early in their twenties, but so utterly vasted. A past, and a glimpse into the Heaven on Earth in the company of The Yogi of Yogis so bitterly lost to arrogance and ego. Yes, Nabs, you have that arrogance and ego thing nailed!! To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutp...@... wrote: I hear you, sister. When I first met Maharishi in the summer of 1972 I exploded into infinity. Came back about twenty minutes later, but wow! I can joke and pretend to make light of it in posts like this, but my God, everything becomes different after that. Something has so fundamentally changed in you, that there is never a turning back. No matter what the relative nonsense might be, no matter how shocking to the mind/ego and how absolutely valid on this level it might be, you know, as Maharishi said once, in your heart who he is. Just amazing. Wonderful. Thank you for posting this Peter.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
The Vedic Atom was a boiling cauldron of 10 rigidly inflexible egos with strong personalities all bumping into each other until there wasn't much left of one's ego but a gooey mush of capitulation to the group. The trade off was the death of selfish narcissism and an attitude of, Let go, and let God. We never had a pillow fight, but I think it would have helped ease the tension of attachment to one's own ideas and others equally attached, jockeying for dominance. Everyone was a leader in their own right so the field of competition was quite high, but when the dust settled, we had developed a deep love and respect for each other, warts and all. It's kinda like being married to nine people all at once. When I see a few of these women in Fairfield or in the dome from time to time, I always feel a wave of deep affection flow between us. During the Atom project which lasted almost a year, I began to observe my thoughts, feelings and actions reflected back to me from the mirror of nine other personalities and discovered that what you put out there you get back, and pronto. Youtube wasn't available at the time, Curtis, otherwise I would have posted a link to satisfy your fantasy of scantily clad women in underwear whacking each other with pillows in the flying hall. Think pink and fluffy and you'll get the idea. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: I don't really get the spiritual POV on the ego. Other than a person being egotistical and being inflexible with other people which is bad, my life's growth has been to develop a strong ego out of the many forces in youth that smash it down. Growing into a strong sense of ego and self is one way of describing my positive growth. I would view any attempt to smash it to be abusive. Now if you learned to have a strong ego in the midst of other women who were trying to assert theirs, becoming flexible enough to work things out and see another person's POV, that to me is an ego becoming healthy, secure and strong. Exactly. I think ego gets a really bad rap in spiritual traditions. (Any details about the inevitable pillow fights that you all had would me much appreciated and detailed descriptions could be billed on a minute by minute basis if you wish. I'm just say'n...I'll trade you some tapes of the Vedic Atom Men dancing in cheeks-chaps if you like.)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- On Sun, 1/4/09, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 4:59 PM --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutp...@... wrote: I hear you, sister. When I first met Maharishi in the summer of 1972 I exploded into infinity. Came back about twenty minutes later, but wow! I can joke and pretend to make light of it in posts like this, but my God, everything becomes different after that. Something has so fundamentally changed in you, that there is never a turning back. No matter what the relative nonsense might be, no matter how shocking to the mind/ego and how absolutely valid on this level it might be, you know, as Maharishi said once, in your heart who he is. Just amazing. Wonderful. Thank you for posting this Peter. You are quite welcome, Nabs. We certainly can go at it from time to time, but we are in accord as to what Maharishi is/was. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutp...@... wrote: --- On Sun, 1/4/09, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 4:59 PM --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: I hear you, sister. When I first met Maharishi in the summer of 1972 I exploded into infinity. Came back about twenty minutes later, but wow! I can joke and pretend to make light of it in posts like this, but my God, everything becomes different after that. Something has so fundamentally changed in you, that there is never a turning back. No matter what the relative nonsense might be, no matter how shocking to the mind/ego and how absolutely valid on this level it might be, you know, as Maharishi said once, in your heart who he is. Just amazing. Wonderful. Thank you for posting this Peter. You are quite welcome, Nabs. We certainly can go at it from time to time, but we are in accord as to what Maharishi is/was. As times goes by, in hindsight, I do remember some of your personal, rational and heartfelt posts. They are not frequently posted, but they are there, and I must admit to have read them with delight. Though sometimes you do irritate me greenish. In the last post I did adress you as Peter with a capital P for the first time ever, I'm not sure what came over me... Above all I would like to wish you and your family a very Happy New Year !
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 4:06 PM, raunchydog raunchy...@yahoo.com wrote: The Vedic Atom was a boiling cauldron of 10 rigidly inflexible egos with strong personalities all bumping into each other Raunch, remember that there are guys who belong to FFL. Guys who paid the ultimate price for society and the survival of the Human Race: we married women. We know from experience that what our fathers taught us is forever true: that arguing with a woman is like trying to read a newspaper in the wind. We know why so many men die earlier than their wives: because they can. We know what it's like to marry a women though we're not quite what they were looking for in a mate, but close enough, we can be trained. We know what it's like to be constantly told that we're just boys with toys and that we never grow up. We know how difficult it is for our womenfolk to bring us around, as the one who wears the pants and ultimately makes the final choice, to making the decision the wife had already made.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions / Links section
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of I am the eternal Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 11:42 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions An unsnippable post. As the only impartial member of FFL, I vote this post as a keeper, as one should be indexed as Is TM a Religion?. There's a links section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/links. AFAIK I have set it up so that anyone can add to it. Whenever you see a post which is worthy of being added, please do so.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of enlightened_dawn11 Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 12:16 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions that they wanted to build monumental tributes to him was something he could not and would not reject at the end of his life. They did not come up with the idea of building Towers of Invincibility, World's Tallest Building, etc. Your calling him the Maharishi implies you never spent much time around him. If you had, you would have observed that he was a cornucopia of such ideas. Few others came up with anything novel. Maharishi was the idea man. Others tried to fulfill his ideas.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 2:26 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions I remember, one time, when Maharishi was visiting Fairfield, and they were starting to build the first dome. Bramacharya Shankar, was sitting, 'In the Dome', chanting the Vedas... At the time, it was far too cold to be outside, for any length of time, as it felt like it was about minus ten degrees outside. The dome hadn't been completed yet, and Ravi was shaking with cold, by the time Maharishi finally came to bless the dome. I didn't know who Ravi was, at the time, but the image of him, outside, all that time, wearing nothing but a dhoti and a blanket, impresses me, to this day. I helped set up the stage that day. There was an electric heater a few feet away from him, blowing on him.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
- Rick Archer, Slayer of Maya - Robert wrote: I remember, one time, when Maharishi was visiting Fairfield, and they were starting to build the first dome. Bramacharya Shankar, was sitting, 'In the Dome', chanting the Vedas... At the time, it was far too cold to be outside, for any length of time, as it felt like it was about minus ten degrees outside. The dome hadn't been completed yet, and Ravi was shaking with cold, by the time Maharishi finally came to bless the dome. I didn't know who Ravi was, at the time, but the image of him, outside, all that time, wearing nothing but a dhoti and a blanket, impresses me, to this day. Rick Archer r...@... wrote: I helped set up the stage that day. There was an electric heater a few feet away from him, blowing on him.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Shaddai, Excellent manifesto on why men should rely on women for paper training before they are allowed in the house. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 4:06 PM, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: The Vedic Atom was a boiling cauldron of 10 rigidly inflexible egos with strong personalities all bumping into each other Raunch, remember that there are guys who belong to FFL. Guys who paid the ultimate price for society and the survival of the Human Race: we married women. We know from experience that what our fathers taught us is forever true: that arguing with a woman is like trying to read a newspaper in the wind. We know why so many men die earlier than their wives: because they can. We know what it's like to marry a women though we're not quite what they were looking for in a mate, but close enough, we can be trained. We know what it's like to be constantly told that we're just boys with toys and that we never grow up. We know how difficult it is for our womenfolk to bring us around, as the one who wears the pants and ultimately makes the final choice, to making the decision the wife had already made.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 2:26 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions I remember, one time, when Maharishi was visiting Fairfield, and they were starting to build the first dome. Bramacharya Shankar, was sitting, 'In the Dome', chanting the Vedas... At the time, it was far too cold to be outside, for any length of time, as it felt like it was about minus ten degrees outside. The dome hadn't been completed yet, and Ravi was shaking with cold, by the time Maharishi finally came to bless the dome. I didn't know who Ravi was, at the time, but the image of him, outside, all that time, wearing nothing but a dhoti and a blanket, impresses me, to this day. I helped set up the stage that day. There was an electric heater a few feet away from him, blowing on him. Yes, but I still remember that Maharishi was a bit late, and this guy was freezing by the time he appeared. I was waiting in an adjacent Frat, next to where he was staying, because it was too damn cold for me...that day... But, thanks for the heater, Rick...that probably saved his life. R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: Mind you, I assert that I belong to the cult of TM. No matter what my reasons for visiting a whorehouse, if I were to visit one, I should consider myself a john and there ain't two ways about it. I could not agree more. I freely admit that my participation in both the TMO and later the Rama trip was me being involved in a cult. I got a lot *from* my involvement in each of the cults, thank you. snip I watched the tapes. I got to see Maharishi several times. I saw him at Taste of Utopia. Unless he was a psycopath and my third ear was successfully being lied to, I think that Maharishi really did believe in all the Maharishi brand shit he was churning out. Again, I agree. Maharishi was by far the most superstitious person I've ever met on planet Earth. I have no doubt that he believed fer- vently in each of these superstitions that he trademarked with his name and sold to suckers. I was actually there when he walked into the room at Squaw Valley and saw chairs upside down on the tables. (There is some kind of super- stition in India about that being a bad omen.) He *blanched* and got this expression of terror on his face, stopped dead in his tracks, and turned back and went back the other way, and refused to enter the room until things had been put right. Does that indicate that he *believed* in the superstition? You betcha. Does that suggest that the belief is rational? Not in my book. Does that suggest that the person reacting that way, with such fear, was enlightened? Again, not in my book. I don't think he ever turned back, ever looked in the mirror and asked himself what the fuck am I doing? I agree. In my estimation he lacked the *ability* to self-reflect. He just did shit, and assumed that it was correct and in tune with the laws of nature because he did it. And he assumed that because he'd been told that's the way things work by the people who taught him his Hindu beliefs. I doubt that he *ever* second-guessed anything he ever did. I think he really believed all the crap. That he believed it till the very last day I got to see him live from Vlodrup. So do I. But I don't think that's the reason he started *selling* the crap. He did that because he had priced TM out of the market and there was not enough income coming in to support the movement from teaching, because people were starting to leave the TM movement and he had to come up with something new to keep them around and interested, *AND* because he thought that these things would be good for them. I'm *certain* that he thought that all these silly products would be good for people. After all, they came from the Vedas, right? So *by definition* they were good, the way he thought. Maharishi was, as Vaj has suggested, a Hindu Fundamentalist. He believed that all these products and services came straight from the mouth of God, and thus needed to be made available to the people of the world. For a profit, of course. But *at the same time*, he wasn't dumb. He saw what happened to the TMO's economic bottom line as soon as he promised people that they'd be able to levitate. (And he really *DID* promise people that they'd be able to levitate, at the beginning of the Siddhis courses. It was only afterwards, after some buyers made noises about suing, that he and the TMO back- pedalled and began to claim that the course taught only Stage I flying.) He used these courses to pay the bills until the pool of suckers was expended, and everyone who was probably *going* to take the Siddhis course had. Then he introduced the next profit cow product. And then the next. And then the next. Did he *believe* that all of these things were valuable? Well, duh...he was a Fundamentalist...of course he believed they were. But my bottom line argument is that one of the *other* reasons he introduced all of these spiritual distrac- tions was as a kind of magician's misdirection, to keep the audience from noticing that not only had *they* not realized the enlightenment he'd originally promised them, but that NO ONE had. NO ONE. FIFTY YEARS after he started teaching TM and promising it as the fastest, most effective method for realizing enlightenment, there is not a single person that the TMO can point to and say, This person is enlightened. This person is an example of what we have been prom- ising as enlightenment. You can take this person to your labs and hook them up to machines and use them as the definitive example of what enlightenment is. NOT ONE. But the distraction products are still there, and they keep selling. To those who have conveniently forgotten the original promise, that is. In my view, Maharishi was a tinkerer, an experimenter. He just tried shit to see if it would work. Those who were on the early Siddhis courses know that there were quite a few siddhis taught to them that never appeared in the final version of the course taught
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
---thx (below...interesting!). btw: pics of new Peace Palaces... http://www.blproperties.net/home/ In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of authfriend Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:39 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip I could not help but notice at the time that I walked away from TM that NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAD EVER BEEN CERTIFIED BY THE TMO AS ENLIGHTENED. NOT ONE. guffaw I could not help but notice... Moi, I started TM in 1975 and never heard any promise of enlightenment in five to eight years. My initiator did mention a five-year period in response to a question during three days' checking, but the way he told it, five years was the *fastest* one could expect to get enlightened. He made it very clear that it was highly individual and could take a lot longer. I know quite a few who have gotten enlightened (I don't like the terminology). Maybe it's just because I don't hang around with many true-blue Ru's, but most of the people I'm referring to, although appreciative of the contribution MMY and TM have made to their lives, are in a fairly distant orbit from the movement. In some cases, it appears to me that their awakening occurred shortly after they distanced themselves from the movement and thus broke free of habitual belief patterns. Or maybe they distanced themselves because they were awakening (graduating) and those belief patterns were beginning to unravel. Hard to tell which is the cart and which the horse. The TMO/MUM is an incubator. Once you've hatched, you're probably going to want to expand your territory and not stay in the incubator.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
-Original Message- From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Archer Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:18 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions I know quite a few who have gotten enlightened (I don't like the terminology). Maybe it's just because I don't hang around with many true-blue Ru's, but most of the people I'm referring to, although appreciative of the contribution MMY and TM have made to their lives, are in a fairly distant orbit from the movement. In some cases, it appears to me that their awakening occurred shortly after they distanced themselves from the movement and thus broke free of habitual belief patterns. Or maybe they distanced themselves because they were awakening (graduating) and those belief patterns were beginning to unravel. Hard to tell which is the cart and which the horse. The TMO/MUM is an incubator. Once you've hatched, you're probably going to want to expand your territory and not stay in the incubator. I should add that there are many stages or degrees of awakening, and people, and the followers they attract, often mistake initial or intermediate stages with final ones (if there are any). (see Halfway up the Mountain - The Error of Premature Claims to Enlightenment, by Mariana Caplan - http://tinyurl.com/6tyssk). Here are the main reasons I think few in the TMO claim enlightenment: 1) Maharishi is held up as the example of Enlightenment, and an ordinary guy who is not like Maharishi wouldn't be believed, or believe himself. Even though Maharishi never flew, didn't have perfect health, etc., he established those and other abilities and attributes as necessary criteria for enlightenment. In the TMO culture, unless you meet those criteria, you're not enlightened. In other words, the TMO has placed enlightenment as an impossibly distant goal, and most in the Movement have been conditioned to believe that they couldn't possibly be anywhere near it, even though it may be staring them in the face. 2) The Robin Carlsen legacy - the best-known example of someone in the TMO claiming Enlightenment was an egotistical nutcase, so anyone who claims it now is suspect, is likely to have his dome badge revoked, be ostracized by his friends, etc. That's one reason those who claim Awakening tend to be independent-minded people, not caring about having a dome badge, willing find new friends, etc. And many of these don't claim it publically. Even close friends and business partners may not suspect.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: -Original Message- From: On Behalf Of Rick Archer I know quite a few who have gotten enlightened (I don't like the terminology). Maybe it's just because I don't hang around with many true-blue Ru's, but most of the people I'm referring to, although appreciative of the contribution MMY and TM have made to their lives, are in a fairly distant orbit from the movement. In some cases, it appears to me that their awakening occurred shortly after they distanced themselves from the movement and thus broke free of habitual belief patterns. Or maybe they distanced themselves because they were awakening (graduating) and those belief patterns were beginning to unravel. Hard to tell which is the cart and which the horse. The TMO/MUM is an incubator. Once you've hatched, you're probably going to want to expand your territory and not stay in the incubator. Rick, I have no problem with this. My point was, and I consider the point valid, there is NOT ONE PERSON whom the *TM movement* can point to and say, This person is enlightened. We 'certify' that this person is enlightened, and because we believe in validating what we say with science, you can take this person to the labs and test them as an *example* of enlightenment. I should add that there are many stages or degrees of awakening, and people, and the followers they attract, often mistake initial or intermediate stages with final ones (if there are any). (see Halfway up the Mountain - The Error of Premature Claims to Enlightenment, by Mariana Caplan - http://tinyurl.com/6tyssk). Again, I have no problem with this, in TM, or in any other movement that claims to have a path to enlightenment. Hell, *I* experienced periods of awakening during my TM days that I mistook for enlightenment; if that can happen to *me*, whom many here go out of their way to characterize as being lower than the lint in an earthworm's navel, it can happen to anyone. :-) But my point is that the *TM organization* does not have even ONE person to whom they can point and say, WE certify that this person has achieved the goal we are selling. NOT ONE. And this in an organization that makes a pretense of scientific validation of its claims. Doncha think that if they had one -- even ONE -- that they'd *rush* them to the labs for testing? Doncha think they'd try to get them on Leno? Fifty years. Not ONE graduate of the course. Here are the main reasons I think few in the TMO claim enlightenment: 1) Maharishi is held up as the example of Enlightenment, and an ordinary guy who is not like Maharishi wouldn't be believed, or believe himself. Even though Maharishi never flew, didn't have perfect health, etc., he established those and other abilities and attributes as necessary criteria for enlightenment. In the TMO culture, unless you meet those criteria, you're not enlightened. In other words, the TMO has placed enlightenment as an impossibly distant goal, and most in the Movement have been conditioned to believe that they couldn't possibly be anywhere near it, even though it may be staring them in the face. I completely agree. 2) The Robin Carlsen legacy - the best-known example of someone in the TMO claiming Enlightenment was an egotistical nutcase... I would go so far as to say that there were *two* cases in the TMO of someone claiming enlightenment who were egotistical nutcases. Hint: the second one founded the organization. :-) ...so anyone who claims it now is suspect, is likely to have his dome badge revoked, be ostracized by his friends, etc. That's one reason those who claim Awakening tend to be independent-minded people, not caring about having a dome badge, willing to find new friends, etc. And many of these don't claim it publically. Even close friends and business partners may not suspect. While I do not dispute that this may be true, and I am open to the possibility that some have achieved some degree of realization as a result of TM (again, if I did, *anyone* can), my point is not *about* what may or may not have happened off the record. My point is that the organization that has claimed for fifty years that it offers the fastest, most effective method of realizing enlightenment cannot produce even ONE on the record example of anyone having done it. NOT ONE. Fifty YEARS, man. If TM is the fastest and most effective method, it's not very fast OR effective now, is it? :-) My sub-point is that all of the *other* products offered to supplement TM are offered to distract attention from this obvious reality. If the TM organization could sell enlightenment by providing an example of it, doncha think they would? But they can't. So they sell overpriced honey instead...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
NOT ONE! Areed Turq, the TMO has not produced one enlightened personaccording to the powers that be conception of enlightenment. And there's the catch. There has been such an investment in the idea of enlightenment rather than the actual direct realization, that any criteria are in the realm of personality, rather than the transcendent apperception of consciousness conscious of its own consciousness. Personalities are all over the friggin' place and have essentially nothing to do with Realization. To quote SCI Lesson #874692762875, The infinite value is present at every moment in the point value. Also, why would someone who was realized have anything to do with the TMO? As Rick pointed out, leaving the TMO and enlightenment seem to be concomitant phenomena. An organization driven by personality/ego is necessarily insane. When consciousness becomes conscious of consciousness (CBCC-new term for enlightenment!) a sweet breeze blows through the room and all personality/ego driven thought, feeling and behavior is seen clearly as madness in that context-less context. --- On Sat, 1/3/09, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 9:12 AM --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: -Original Message- From: On Behalf Of Rick Archer I know quite a few who have gotten enlightened (I don't like the terminology). Maybe it's just because I don't hang around with many true-blue Ru's, but most of the people I'm referring to, although appreciative of the contribution MMY and TM have made to their lives, are in a fairly distant orbit from the movement. In some cases, it appears to me that their awakening occurred shortly after they distanced themselves from the movement and thus broke free of habitual belief patterns. Or maybe they distanced themselves because they were awakening (graduating) and those belief patterns were beginning to unravel. Hard to tell which is the cart and which the horse. The TMO/MUM is an incubator. Once you've hatched, you're probably going to want to expand your territory and not stay in the incubator. Rick, I have no problem with this. My point was, and I consider the point valid, there is NOT ONE PERSON whom the *TM movement* can point to and say, This person is enlightened. We 'certify' that this person is enlightened, and because we believe in validating what we say with science, you can take this person to the labs and test them as an *example* of enlightenment. I should add that there are many stages or degrees of awakening, and people, and the followers they attract, often mistake initial or intermediate stages with final ones (if there are any). (see Halfway up the Mountain - The Error of Premature Claims to Enlightenment, by Mariana Caplan - http://tinyurl.com/6tyssk). Again, I have no problem with this, in TM, or in any other movement that claims to have a path to enlightenment. Hell, *I* experienced periods of awakening during my TM days that I mistook for enlightenment; if that can happen to *me*, whom many here go out of their way to characterize as being lower than the lint in an earthworm's navel, it can happen to anyone. :-) But my point is that the *TM organization* does not have even ONE person to whom they can point and say, WE certify that this person has achieved the goal we are selling. NOT ONE. And this in an organization that makes a pretense of scientific validation of its claims. Doncha think that if they had one -- even ONE -- that they'd *rush* them to the labs for testing? Doncha think they'd try to get them on Leno? Fifty years. Not ONE graduate of the course. Here are the main reasons I think few in the TMO claim enlightenment: 1) Maharishi is held up as the example of Enlightenment, and an ordinary guy who is not like Maharishi wouldn't be believed, or believe himself. Even though Maharishi never flew, didn't have perfect health, etc., he established those and other abilities and attributes as necessary criteria for enlightenment. In the TMO culture, unless you meet those criteria, you're not enlightened. In other words, the TMO has placed enlightenment as an impossibly distant goal, and most in the Movement have been conditioned to believe that they couldn't possibly be anywhere near it, even though it may be staring them in the face. I completely agree. 2) The Robin Carlsen legacy - the best-known example of someone in the TMO claiming Enlightenment was an egotistical nutcase... I would go so far as to say that there were *two* cases in the TMO of someone claiming enlightenment who were egotistical nutcases. Hint: the second one
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
On Jan 3, 2009, at 3:39 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: Mind you, I assert that I belong to the cult of TM. No matter what my reasons for visiting a whorehouse, if I were to visit one, I should consider myself a john and there ain't two ways about it. I could not agree more. I freely admit that my participation in both the TMO and later the Rama trip was me being involved in a cult. I got a lot *from* my involvement in each of the cults, thank you. I couldn't agree more either. I freely admit that *both* of you were/are brainwashed cult groupies. (tee hee!) :) Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
On Jan 3, 2009, at 7:44 AM, Rick Archer wrote: 2) The Robin Carlsen legacy - the best-known example of someone in the TMO claiming Enlightenment was an egotistical nutcase, so anyone who claims it now is suspect, is likely to have his dome badge revoked, be ostracized by his friends, etc. That's one reason those who claim Awakening tend to be independent-minded people, not caring about having a dome badge, willing find new friends, etc. And many of these don't claim it publically. Even close friends and business partners may not suspect. Gosh, Rick, these enlightened beings look just like everyone else--imagine that! I guess they must keep their haloes hidden so as not to scare off the ignorant masses, and trot them out only for their friends. How thoughtful of them. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: Here are the main reasons I think few in the TMO claim enlightenment: 1) Maharishi is held up as the example of Enlightenment, and an ordinary guy who is not like Maharishi wouldn't be believed, or believe himself. Even though Maharishi never flew, didn't have perfect health, etc., he established those and other abilities and attributes as necessary criteria for enlightenment. In the TMO culture, unless you meet those criteria, you're not enlightened. In other words, the TMO has placed enlightenment as an impossibly distant goal, and most in the Movement have been conditioned to believe that they couldn't possibly be anywhere near it, even though it may be staring them in the face. 2) The Robin Carlsen legacy - the best-known example of someone in the TMO claiming Enlightenment was an egotistical nutcase, so anyone who claims it now is suspect, is likely to have his dome badge revoked, be ostracized by his friends, etc. Rick, I want to expand upon this part of your post and hopefully broaden the discussion. The first thing that strikes me about what you say (and for the record I have no reason to disagree with any of it based on my own exper- ience in the distant TMO past) is that it is likely that the *result* of this is that NO ONE WILL *EVER* BE CERTIFIED AS ENLIGHTENED BY THE SPIRITUAL TRADITION CREATED BY MAHARISHI MAHESH YOGI. If Maharishi himself never felt that anyone met his criteria for enlightenment, at least not enough to announce it publicly, then what are the chances that anyone following after him will ever do so? It will be a spiritual tradition that leaves behind it no recognized enlightened beings. Compare and contrast to traditions that seem to have no problem congratulating someone when they graduate and realize enlightenment. Now admittedly there are some arguable problems with the tradition of certifying enlightenment. Does your diploma mean anything? Certainly in the past some schools were giving away such certificates of enlightenment indiscriminately, and probably to people who didn't deserve them, just to bolster the reputation of their school as actually producing enlightenment. The Japanese poet Ikkyu, when presented with his own inka or certificate of enlightenment from a noted school of Zen, took it and threw it on the ground and stomped it into dust. But the *alternative*? To establish an enlightenment tradition that seems to allow NO ONE to graduate and be recognized as enlightened? That strikes me as kinda self- defeating, if not actually Self defeating. :-) As you suggest, if enlightenment itself is put up on a pedestal so high that none can achieve it, is it likely that any of the students in that tradition WILL ever achieve it? I paid my dues in two spiritual traditions in which enlightenment was pedestalized and no one in the tradition except the teacher was allowed to be considered enlightened. Since then I have run into a few traditions that *don't* pedestalize enlight- enment and that *don't* have any problem with their students realizing enlightenment. They don't demonize students when it happens, they congratulate them. Even given the problems associated with certifying enlightenment, I still have to believe that a trad- ition like this in which it is permitted to announce your enlightened is more likely to actually produce enlightenment than a tradition in which announcing the good news may result in you being expelled and declared a heretic.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: Here are the main reasons I think few in the TMO claim enlightenment: 1) Maharishi is held up as the example of Enlightenment, and an ordinary guy who is not like Maharishi wouldn't be believed, or believe himself. Even though Maharishi never flew, didn't have perfect health, etc., he established those and other abilities and attributes as necessary criteria for enlightenment. In the TMO culture, unless you meet those criteria, you're not enlightened. In other words, the TMO has placed enlightenment as an impossibly distant goal, and most in the Movement have been conditioned to believe that they couldn't possibly be anywhere near it, even though it may be staring them in the face. 2) The Robin Carlsen legacy - the best-known example of someone in the TMO claiming Enlightenment was an egotistical nutcase, so anyone who claims it now is suspect, is likely to have his dome badge revoked, be ostracized by his friends, etc. Rick, I want to expand upon this part of your post and hopefully broaden the discussion. The first thing that strikes me about what you say (and for the record I have no reason to disagree with any of it based on my own exper- ience in the distant TMO past) is that it is likely that the *result* of this is that NO ONE WILL *EVER* BE CERTIFIED AS ENLIGHTENED BY THE SPIRITUAL TRADITION CREATED BY MAHARISHI MAHESH YOGI. If Maharishi himself never felt that anyone met his criteria for enlightenment, at least not enough to announce it publicly, then what are the chances that anyone following after him will ever do so? It will be a spiritual tradition that leaves behind it no recognized enlightened beings. Compare and contrast to traditions that seem to have no problem congratulating someone when they graduate and realize enlightenment. Now admittedly there are some arguable problems with the tradition of certifying enlightenment. Does your diploma mean anything? Certainly in the past some schools were giving away such certificates of enlightenment indiscriminately, and probably to people who didn't deserve them, just to bolster the reputation of their school as actually producing enlightenment. The Japanese poet Ikkyu, when presented with his own inka or certificate of enlightenment from a noted school of Zen, took it and threw it on the ground and stomped it into dust. But the *alternative*? To establish an enlightenment tradition that seems to allow NO ONE to graduate and be recognized as enlightened? That strikes me as kinda self- defeating, if not actually Self defeating. :-) As you suggest, if enlightenment itself is put up on a pedestal so high that none can achieve it, is it likely that any of the students in that tradition WILL ever achieve it? I paid my dues in two spiritual traditions in which enlightenment was pedestalized and no one in the tradition except the teacher was allowed to be considered enlightened. Since then I have run into a few traditions that *don't* pedestalize enlight- enment and that *don't* have any problem with their students realizing enlightenment. They don't demonize students when it happens, they congratulate them. Even given the problems associated with certifying enlightenment, I still have to believe that a trad- ition like this in which it is permitted to announce your enlightened is more likely to actually produce enlightenment than a tradition in which announcing the good news may result in you being expelled and declared a heretic. Why would someone who is enlightened, ever want to be 'Certified'... This is as ridiculous a concept as one could imagine. R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii...@... wrote: -snip- Why would someone who is enlightened, ever want to be 'Certified'... This is as ridiculous a concept as one could imagine. R.G. from the standpoint of the ego-bound, this would be like having your cake and eating it too. a really stupid idea.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: -snip- Why would someone who is enlightened, ever want to be 'Certified'... This is as ridiculous a concept as one could imagine. R.G. from the standpoint of the ego-bound, this would be like having your cake and eating it too. a really stupid idea. BTW, doesn't Bevan have his 'Cerified Enlightened Pet-agree'?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: Rick, I want to expand upon this part of your post and hopefully broaden the discussion. The first thing that strikes me about what you say (and for the record I have no reason to disagree with any of it based on my own exper- ience in the distant TMO past) is that it is likely that the *result* of this is that NO ONE WILL *EVER* BE CERTIFIED AS ENLIGHTENED BY THE SPIRITUAL TRADITION CREATED BY MAHARISHI MAHESH YOGI. If Maharishi himself never felt that anyone met his criteria for enlightenment, at least not enough to announce it publicly, then what are the chances that anyone following after him will ever do so? It will be a spiritual tradition that leaves behind it no recognized enlightened beings. Just for fun, imagine what it would be like if MUM decided to apply the same rationale to its degree programs that it does to certifying enlightenment. This is how the conversation between an MUM recruiter and a potential student might go: Student: So you're telling me that when I get my Ph.D in Enlightenment from your university, I will be able to levitate and manifest all of the other siddhis you've been talking about? Recruiter: Absolutely. The very *definition* of having earned a Ph.D in Enlightenment is that you will be able to levitate and manifest all of the other siddhis. And you'll be perfect, to boot. Cool, huh? Student: Cool. I want to hear more. Can I talk to one of your students who has gotten their PhDinE? I want to ask them what it's like to levitate and how much potential employers are likely to pay me for that when I graduate! Recruiter: Well...uh...I'm afraid you can't talk to any of our PhDinE graduates right now. Student: Why? Aren't any of them here today? Recruiter: Well...uh...the truth is, no one has ever really graduated. We haven't ever bestowed a Ph.D in Enlightenment on anyone. Student: [after a short pause] So you're saying that if I sign up for this Ph.D in Enlightenment program and pay you several thousand dollars a year in tuition, you may never give me my degree? Recruiter: Exactly. Isn't that blissful? Student: I guess. Could you direct me to the booth for Harvard? :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: snip Even given the problems associated with certifying enlightenment, I still have to believe that a trad- ition like this in which it is permitted to announce your enlightened is more likely to actually produce enlightenment than a tradition in which announcing the good news may result in you being expelled and declared a heretic. Why would someone who is enlightened, ever want to be 'Certified'... This is as ridiculous a concept as one could imagine. R.G. Not so. Given that its difficult to define enlightenment the whole idea of achieving it is a ridiculous concept. The conversation about enlightenment is at its heart ridiculous. Given the amorphous nature of enlightenment, the multiple interpretations of its achievement in a variety of traditions, then certifying the process would be appropriate to the nature of the task. s.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: -snip- Why would someone who is enlightened, ever want to be 'Certified'... This is as ridiculous a concept as one could imagine. R.G. from the standpoint of the ego-bound, this would be like having your cake and eating it too. a really stupid idea. BTW, doesn't Bevan have his 'Cerified Enlightened Pet-agree'? ha-ha-- i would never want to be him.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: snip The first thing that strikes me about what you say (and for the record I have no reason to disagree with any of it based on my own exper- ience in the distant TMO past) is that it is likely that the *result* of this is that NO ONE WILL *EVER* BE CERTIFIED AS ENLIGHTENED BY THE SPIRITUAL TRADITION CREATED BY MAHARISHI MAHESH YOGI. snip I think your on to something Barry. I am reminded by a huge mistake John Smith made when he put together the Mormon religion. He allowed followers to have independent visions. In every major religion only the founder is allowed to have visions. Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Arjuna, for example all get to have their visions but followers are not to privy to the special powers. John Smith screwed up and as a result every Tom, Dick and Harry in Utah can have a vision and start their own version of Mormonism. Every nook and cranny in the state is filled with cult compounds. Some of these cults are dangerous - ask Elizabeth Smart. The point here is that if your running the show you can't have a bunch of TMers running around saying they're enlightened and breaking off and start their own clubs, temples, boutiques and spas. Once a follower is certified enlightened, then how can you hold bend them to your whim? How can you turn a profit with that sort of competition? s.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Stu buttspli...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: snip The first thing that strikes me about what you say (and for the record I have no reason to disagree with any of it based on my own exper- ience in the distant TMO past) is that it is likely that the *result* of this is that NO ONE WILL *EVER* BE CERTIFIED AS ENLIGHTENED BY THE SPIRITUAL TRADITION CREATED BY MAHARISHI MAHESH YOGI. snip I think your on to something Barry. I am reminded by a huge mistake John Smith made when he put together the Mormon religion. He allowed followers to have independent visions. In every major religion only the founder is allowed to have visions. Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Arjuna, for example all get to have their visions but followers are not to privy to the special powers. John Smith screwed up and as a result every Tom, Dick and Harry in Utah can have a vision and start their own version of Mormonism. Every nook and cranny in the state is filled with cult compounds. Some of these cults are dangerous - ask Elizabeth Smart. The point here is that if your running the show you can't have a bunch of TMers running around saying they're enlightened and breaking off and start their own clubs, temples, boutiques and spas. Once a follower is certified enlightened, then how can you hold bend them to your whim? How can you turn a profit with that sort of competition? s. Didn't Maharishi leave the ashram after his Master passed? Didn't he spend some time alone, just meditating. Don't you remember, before he passed, he meditated for many days. Alone. Remember these things, and you will need no cerification of anything. R.G.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- On Sat, 1/3/09, Stu buttspli...@gmail.com wrote: From: Stu buttspli...@gmail.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 1:34 PM --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: snip The first thing that strikes me about what you say (and for the record I have no reason to disagree with any of it based on my own exper- ience in the distant TMO past) is that it is likely that the *result* of this is that NO ONE WILL *EVER* BE CERTIFIED AS ENLIGHTENED BY THE SPIRITUAL TRADITION CREATED BY MAHARISHI MAHESH YOGI. snip I think your on to something Barry. I am reminded by a huge mistake John Smith made when he put together the Mormon religion. He allowed followers to have independent visions. In every major religion only the founder is allowed to have visions. Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Arjuna, for example all get to have their visions but followers are not to privy to the special powers. John Smith screwed up and as a result every Tom, Dick and Harry in Utah can have a vision and start their own version of Mormonism. Every nook and cranny in the state is filled with cult compounds. Some of these cults are dangerous - ask Elizabeth Smart. The point here is that if your running the show you can't have a bunch of TMers running around saying they're enlightened and breaking off and start their own clubs, temples, boutiques and spas. Once a follower is certified enlightened, then how can you hold bend them to your whim? How can you turn a profit with that sort of competition? s. When Sri Sri Ravi Shankar became enlightened and shortly thereafter cognized Sadarshan Kriya, he told MMY about it and wanted to teach it through the TMO. Maharishi told him to teach on his own. SSRS didn't leave for a year but finally left and the rest is history as they say. SSRS didn't want to leave. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 11:54 AM, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.comwrote: Rick is an honorable man. Quite low key but stronger than an elephant in his quiet way. I believe him that he knows enlightened people. He happens to know me and is a witness to the signs that I've been having some flashy experiences over the past year. No, no claim of enlightment here, just a claim that life is interesting and livey and that's enough for me. Myself, I don't need a certificate. Damn, man, the Kingdom of God is within you and you are in every direction you look (a constant experience of mine). What use is a piece of paper? And Sal, have your laugh that I am a TB member of a cult. This cult has done OK by me, considering. I am very happy to be having these experiences and these experiences are enough for me. If I were met at the Dome by the powers that be asking for my badge, that would be fine and dandy with me. It's not like Devco can't piece together all I posts and figure out who I am. I've graduated, except I like the experiences I often get in the Dome (when things are really hopping and the numbers are up) and well, old habits die hard. I believe that certifying people as being enlightened, whatever that means, would not be productive for the TMO. The Gita and SOB have not sunk into enough people inside and beyond the TMO. If anybody thinks that The Big Embarrassment is a crock of shit (but in many ways a useful crock of shit, because I like the feel of vastu), then consider what a crock of shit we'd had on their hands if we actually had examples of enlightened people to gawk at. This one likes rollerblading. So I guess I'll add rollerblading to my daily routine. This woman has been married to the same man all her life and has lovely and children. I'd better hurry up and get remarried. This one likes the spicy shrimp curry at Thai Palace. God I hate Thai food, but looks like that's going to be the basis of my new diet. I agree with Rick that the TMO is a great incubator. Perhaps it's success should not be measured in how many have stayed but how many have moved on. I don't think Maharishi was deluded or deluding when he said that TM was the fastest, most powerful way to achieve enlightenment. I believe that given the kind of people who came, the diverse lives they lead that TM works pretty well. I also think that those of you who have left the TMO are proof that TM works. It helped you get to your senses and find that for you in particular there were better things which suit you. I do agree with the statements that Maharishi became very interested in cashflow when the Merv Wave died and each of the many embarrassments did generate a lot of money and did some good. Lord knows there are a lot of members of FFL who have learned Sanskrit and Jyotish. I look at Maharishi as the headmaster for a prep school. A kind of embarassing prep school, but a prep school with some pretty notable graduates nonetheless.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- On Sat, 1/3/09, Stu buttspli...@... wrote: The point here is that if your running the show you can't have a bunch of TMers running around saying they're enlightened and breaking off and start their own clubs, temples, boutiques and spas. Once a follower is certified enlightened, then how can you hold bend them to your whim? How can you turn a profit with that sort of competition? If someone left the TMO whether or not they had a piece of paper stamped Grade A like a piece of meat, wasn't because MMY feared the competition. He clearly understood that if ya gotta go ya gotta go and he wouldn't try to prevent it. If someone wanted to leave, they left and it's certifiably crazy to think certification would either prevent or make certain someone would start their own brand of TM. The only thing that keeps a TM teacher from competing with MMY is a promise to keep the teaching pure and they honor their promise or not. Peter wrote: When Sri Sri Ravi Shankar became enlightened and shortly thereafter cognized Sadarshan Kriya, he told MMY about it and wanted to teach it through the TMO. Maharishi told him to teach on his own. SSRS didn't leave for a year but finally left and the rest is history as they say. SSRS didn't want to leave. Exactly. Lesson: Don't mix da soup with da nuts. raunchydog
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Shaddai, Beautiful post. I remember this was the exact analogy MMY used when he said it was a waste of time to judge someone from their outward appearance or behavior whether or not they were enlightened. At every turn he reminded us to KISS (keep it simple stupid). And doing so, he saved us from frauds who would pretend enlightenment in order to manipulate and sucker us into stroking their ego. He saved us from becoming grandiose about our own grand experiences. He saved us from looking for outward signs of enlightenment in others, rather than looking inward and tending to our own enlightenment. He saved us. Not in the Jesus kind of way, (I really don't know that for sure). He saved us from confusion, with a KISS. But dang, if that ain't just about impossible to do for folks who get off on nitpicking and until nothing remains of innocence. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: I believe that certifying people as being enlightened, whatever that means, would not be productive for the TMO. The Gita and SOB have not sunk into enough people inside and beyond the TMO. If anybody thinks that The Big Embarrassment is a crock of shit (but in many ways a useful crock of shit, because I like the feel of vastu), then consider what a crock of shit we'd had on their hands if we actually had examples of enlightened people to gawk at. This one likes rollerblading. So I guess I'll add rollerblading to my daily routine. This woman has been married to the same man all her life and has lovely and children. I'd better hurry up and get remarried. This one likes the spicy shrimp curry at Thai Palace. God I hate Thai food, but looks like that's going to be the basis of my new diet.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutp...@... wrote: When Sri Sri Ravi Shankar became enlightened and shortly thereafter cognized Sadarshan Kriya, he told MMY about it and wanted to teach it through the TMO. Maharishi told him to teach on his own. SSRS didn't leave for a year but finally left and the rest is history as they say. SSRS didn't want to leave. Does Ravi Shankar claim enlightenment ? And he was doing TM for years, no ? Oh, no, ofcourse he didn't, he probably was doing something else even though he was Maharishi's student. Because if he did there you'd have one enlightened fellow from TM right there.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: When Sri Sri Ravi Shankar became enlightened and shortly thereafter cognized Sadarshan Kriya, he told MMY about it and wanted to teach it through the TMO. Maharishi told him to teach on his own. SSRS didn't leave for a year but finally left and the rest is history as they say. SSRS didn't want to leave. Does Ravi Shankar claim enlightenment ? And he was doing TM for years, no ? Oh, no, ofcourse he didn't, he probably was doing something else even though he was Maharishi's student. Because if he did there you'd have one enlightened fellow from TM right there. This Ravi Shankar thing is mainly moodmaking; look into each others eyes and tell them you love them, hold each others hands and form a circle, blabla etcetc. The technique is far from what has been described as TM+advanced technique; it's just a simple pranayama, and Ravi is just a simple, but probably nice fellow that needs to do some serious sadhana. In a talkshow I watched in India he was asked how it felt to be a guru. He blushed intensely, denying he was a guru, the whole thing got very comical. The fellow abviously wants to be a guru, but does not have the credidentials. Nabby, from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/102304 :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: When Sri Sri Ravi Shankar became enlightened and shortly thereafter cognized Sadarshan Kriya, he told MMY about it and wanted to teach it through the TMO. Maharishi told him to teach on his own. SSRS didn't leave for a year but finally left and the rest is history as they say. SSRS didn't want to leave. Does Ravi Shankar claim enlightenment ? And he was doing TM for years, no ? Oh, no, ofcourse he didn't, he probably was doing something else even though he was Maharishi's student. Because if he did there you'd have one enlightened fellow from TM right there. This Ravi Shankar thing is mainly moodmaking; look into each others eyes and tell them you love them, hold each others hands and form a circle, blabla etcetc. The technique is far from what has been described as TM+advanced technique; it's just a simple pranayama, and Ravi is just a simple, but probably nice fellow that needs to do some serious sadhana. In a talkshow I watched in India he was asked how it felt to be a guru. He blushed intensely, denying he was a guru, the whole thing got very comical. The fellow abviously wants to be a guru, but does not have the credidentials. Nabby, from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/102304 :-) And, what are you tring to say ? That you are sick and obsessed, looking up quotes from years back - that you need professional help ? But we knew that already, Turq.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Nabs, I know SSRS quite well, he's a sat guru. You don't know him, so what you speak about him is simply your projections. But you are correct, he's the only guru that's come out of the TM movement. Enlightened people, but no guru's except him --- On Sat, 1/3/09, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 6:11 PM --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: When Sri Sri Ravi Shankar became enlightened and shortly thereafter cognized Sadarshan Kriya, he told MMY about it and wanted to teach it through the TMO. Maharishi told him to teach on his own. SSRS didn't leave for a year but finally left and the rest is history as they say. SSRS didn't want to leave. Does Ravi Shankar claim enlightenment ? And he was doing TM for years, no ? Oh, no, ofcourse he didn't, he probably was doing something else even though he was Maharishi's student. Because if he did there you'd have one enlightened fellow from TM right there. This Ravi Shankar thing is mainly moodmaking; look into each others eyes and tell them you love them, hold each others hands and form a circle, blabla etcetc. The technique is far from what has been described as TM+advanced technique; it's just a simple pranayama, and Ravi is just a simple, but probably nice fellow that needs to do some serious sadhana. In a talkshow I watched in India he was asked how it felt to be a guru. He blushed intensely, denying he was a guru, the whole thing got very comical. The fellow abviously wants to be a guru, but does not have the credidentials. Nabby, from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/102304 :-) And, what are you tring to say ? That you are sick and obsessed, looking up quotes from years back - that you need professional help ? But we knew that already, Turq. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: -snip- He saved us from confusion, with a KISS. But dang, if that ain't just about impossible to do for folks who get off on nitpicking and until nothing remains of innocence. the ones getting off on nitpicking aren't doing it to clarify their focus on enlightenment. they are doing it because they have lost the ability to transcend regularly and all they have left are the arguments of minds cemented in place by ego.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 8:12 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions Rick, I have no problem with this. My point was, and I consider the point valid, there is NOT ONE PERSON whom the *TM movement* can point to and say, This person is enlightened. We 'certify' that this person is enlightened, and because we believe in validating what we say with science, you can take this person to the labs and test them as an *example* of enlightenment. One exception to this is Fred Travis's research. Fred has tested many people who claim to have permanent witnessing, Unity experiences, etc. He publishes his research, but the individuals' names are not released. So I think in a roundabout way, the TMO does acknowledge that many people are experiencing symptoms of enlightenment, but Maharishi was never into certifying these people (with the possible exception of Tony Nader) and none of the current TMO administration feel qualified to certify them.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sal Sunshine Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:36 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions On Jan 3, 2009, at 7:44 AM, Rick Archer wrote: 2) The Robin Carlsen legacy - the best-known example of someone in the TMO claiming Enlightenment was an egotistical nutcase, so anyone who claims it now is suspect, is likely to have his dome badge revoked, be ostracized by his friends, etc. That's one reason those who claim Awakening tend to be independent-minded people, not caring about having a dome badge, willing find new friends, etc. And many of these don't claim it publically. Even close friends and business partners may not suspect. Gosh, Rick, these enlightened beings look just like everyone else--imagine that! I guess they must keep their haloes hidden so as not to scare off the ignorant masses, and trot them out only for their friends. How thoughtful of them. As it turns out, no one is there at your graduation - no witnesses - so others, if you want to convince them, can only be convinced verbally. Your behavior may, and hopefully does, give them an indication, but no proof.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:55 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions Even given the problems associated with certifying enlightenment, I still have to believe that a trad- ition like this in which it is permitted to announce your enlightened is more likely to actually produce enlightenment than a tradition in which announcing the good news may result in you being expelled and declared a heretic. You may be right, and as a consequence, many in the TMO who wake up decide it's time for them to leave. As I said, it's an incubator. Incubators get a little crowded once you've hatched.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stu Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:35 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions The point here is that if your running the show you can't have a bunch of TMers running around saying they're enlightened and breaking off and start their own clubs, temples, boutiques and spas. Once a follower is certified enlightened, then how can you hold bend them to your whim? How can you turn a profit with that sort of competition? As MMY said to a friend of mine, allegedly with tears in his eyes, before giving him the boot: You're getting too independent, and I can't stand it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
On Jan 3, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Rick Archer wrote: Gosh, Rick, these enlightened beings look just like everyone else--imagine that! I guess they must keep their haloes hidden so as not to scare off the ignorant masses, and trot them out only for their friends. How thoughtful of them. As it turns out, no one is there at your graduation – no witnesses – so others, if you want to convince them, can only be convinced verbally. Your behavior may, and hopefully does, give them an indication, but no proof. I'm sure my behavior gives lots of indications-- but of what, I'd just as soon not know. Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@lisco.com wrote: On Jan 3, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Rick Archer wrote: Gosh, Rick, these enlightened beings look just like everyone else--imagine that! I guess they must keep their haloes hidden so as not to scare off the ignorant masses, and trot them out only for their friends. How thoughtful of them. As it turns out, no one is there at your graduation – no witnesses – so others, if you want to convince them, can only be convinced verbally. Your behavior may, and hopefully does, give them an indication, but no proof. I'm sure my behavior gives lots of indications-- but of what, I'd just as soon not know. Sal To give y'all hope, we have a verified saint in Austin, TX (where else but where God has Her vacation home?). I've met the saint on a number of occasions. Here He is on Youtube giving darshan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8atlMK8uqCU
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
Who would have thunk it? Willie N. Sat guru!!! --- On Sat, 1/3/09, I am the eternal l.shad...@gmail.com wrote: From: I am the eternal l.shad...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 9:40 PM On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@lisco.com wrote: On Jan 3, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Rick Archer wrote: Gosh, Rick, these enlightened beings look just like everyone else--imagine that! I guess they must keep their haloes hidden so as not to scare off the ignorant masses, and trot them out only for their friends. How thoughtful of them. As it turns out, no one is there at your graduation – no witnesses – so others, if you want to convince them, can only be convinced verbally. Your behavior may, and hopefully does, give them an indication, but no proof. I'm sure my behavior gives lots of indications-- but of what, I'd just as soon not know. Sal To give y'all hope, we have a verified saint in Austin, TX (where else but where God has Her vacation home?). I've met the saint on a number of occasions. Here He is on Youtube giving darshan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8atlMK8uqCU
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- On Sat, 1/3/09, Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com wrote: From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 9:19 PM From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sal Sunshine Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:36 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions On Jan 3, 2009, at 7:44 AM, Rick Archer wrote: 2) The Robin Carlsen legacy - the best-known example of someone in the TMO claiming Enlightenment was an egotistical nutcase, so anyone who claims it now is suspect, is likely to have his dome badge revoked, be ostracized by his friends, etc. That's one reason those who claim Awakening tend to be independent-minded people, not caring about having a dome badge, willing find new friends, etc. And many of these don't claim it publically. Even close friends and business partners may not suspect. Gosh, Rick, these enlightened beings look just like everyone else--imagine that! I guess they must keep their haloes hidden so as not to scare off the ignorant masses, and trot them out only for their friends. How thoughtful of them. As it turns out, no one is there at your graduation – no witnesses – so others, if you want to convince them, can only be convinced verbally. Your behavior may, and hopefully does, give them an indication, but no proof. Usually when someone gets enlightened they say, What? Oh, shit, uhh? Oh my God, what the fuck! Holy shit! O my God! Scatological realization, baby!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: -snip- As it turns out, no one is there at your graduation - no witnesses - so others, if you want to convince them, can only be convinced verbally. Your behavior may, and hopefully does, give them an indication, but no proof. the communication regarding established enlightenment is actually done through personal darshan which manifests only in the presence of another receptive person. there is no ego involved in the process as we commonly understand it. it is the desire of both teacher and student that manifests the unmistakable proof of personal enlightenment (it takes two to tango and all that). no amount of verbal persuasion or enlightened behavior is going to work, or any other superficial means, to convince someone on the level of ego. the grace of enlightenment can only be known through a receptive consciousness. for those who DEMAND PROOF of personal enlightenment, they might as well be chasing a kite in a hundred mile an hour wind.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@... wrote: On Jan 3, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Rick Archer wrote: Gosh, Rick, these enlightened beings look just like everyone else--imagine that! I guess they must keep their haloes hidden so as not to scare off the ignorant masses, and trot them out only for their friends. How thoughtful of them. As it turns out, no one is there at your graduation no witnesses so others, if you want to convince them, can only be convinced verbally. Your behavior may, and hopefully does, give them an indication, but no proof. I'm sure my behavior gives lots of indications-- but of what, I'd just as soon not know. Sal the funny thing is Sal, you know exactly what your behavior indicates. down to the letter.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
And they call *me* crazy for walking away... :-) They call you crazy not because of what you *walked away from*, but for what you *ran to* - Zen Master Rama. From what you just described, you should have known better. You've spent almost half your life in and out of cults. Some people just never learn. Compared to Rama, the Marshy was a Beacon Light of the Himalayas. In contrast, Rama was the laughing stock of the entire Himalayas. The Code Cult of the CPU Guru: http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Rama/wired One of the things I'm most thankful for, looking back at my TM experience, is that I caught a clue and bailed from the TMO immediately after Maharishi's first attempt at spiritual distraction. IMO the whole point of this spiritual sleight of hand was to distract TMers from the failure of the TMO to deliver on its very public promise of enlightenment in 5-8 years. The first such promise that Maharishi made was actually 5 years, but after five years had elapsed and no one was enlightened, he changed it to 5-8 years, and when eight years rolled around he stopped making promises that could be verified one way or another altogether. Instead, he started offering a set of add-on, extra- cost products whose purpose IMO was to *distract* people from the fact that he had never delivered on the first promise. The first such distraction was the introduction of the TM-Siddhi program. Turning his back on his *own* capture the fort analogy, Maharishi started promising meditators who were now several years past their own 5-8 year mark that they could learn how to levitate. For a price, of course. And, like many others, I fell for this first distraction. I took the course, found it worthless, realized that 1) no one was levitating and 2) that the whole thing was a distraction from the fact that no one was getting enlightened either, and so I bailed. Others held out longer, and were offered a seemingly never-ending series of distractions in the wake of the TM-Siddhis. You need go no further than the copyright page of www.tm.org to discover them: Maharishi AyurVeda, Maharishi Sthapatya Veda, Maharishi Global Construction, Maharishi Yoga, Maharishi Yagya, Maharishi Vedic Astrology, Maharishi Jyotish, Maharishi Gandharva Veda, Maharishi Vedic Approach to Health, Maharishi Vedic Vibration Tech- nology, Maharishi Instant Relief, Maharishi Rejuvenation, Maharishi Rasayana Program, Maharishi Vedic Management, Maharishi Corporate Development Program, Maharishi Vedic Medicine, Maharishi Vedic Psychology, Maharishi Self-Pulse, Maharishi Heaven on Earth, Maharishi Master Management, Natural Law Based Management, Maharishi Corporate Revital- ization Program, Maharishi Global Administration through Natural Law, Maharishi Purusha, Maharishi Mother Divine, Ideal Girls' School, 24 Hour Bliss, Breath of Serenity, Maharishi Amrit Kalash, Maharishi Vedic Science, Maharishi Vedic Observatory, Vastu Vidya, Maharishi Vastu, and Maharishi Prevention Wing of the Military, to name a few. And this doesn't even take into account the *amazing* boondoggle known as the Million Dollar Course. The whole approach seems to have been, Yeah, we know that you're not really enlightened yet the way we promised you would be, but it'll come. Trust us. And look at all these nifty things that we can sell you while you're waiting, to make it come faster. What a crock of horseshit. In my opinion EVERY SINGLE ONE of these add-on, extra- cost products were intended to be *distractions* from the fact that Maharishi has never delivered on his first, original promise -- enlightenment. I caught a clue and bailed from the TM movement five years after the 8 year promise had expired for me, and was stupid enough only to pay money for the first attempt at distraction and spiritual bait-and-switch, the Siddhis. I could not help but notice at the time that I walked away from TM that NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAD EVER BEEN CERTIFIED BY THE TMO AS ENLIGHTENED. NOT ONE. Today, 30+ years later, that figure remains the same. NOT ONE person has been certified by the TMO as enlightened and offered up to public and scientific scrutiny as an example of enlightenment. And people still not only pay for the distractions from the original promise, they seem to be hungry for more. It's like they want the TMO to keep the distractions coming, so that they never have to deal with the fact that the original promise was a lie. Me, I preferred to accept that the original promise was a lie and walk away. Doing so saved me from having to deal with any of the programs (really distractions) listed in the paragraph above. It also saved me a shitload of money. There are probably people on this forum who have spent tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars on these add- on, extra-cost spiritual distractions, while ignoring the original promise
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: snip I could not help but notice at the time that I walked away from TM that NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAD EVER BEEN CERTIFIED BY THE TMO AS ENLIGHTENED. NOT ONE. guffaw I could not help but notice... Moi, I started TM in 1975 and never heard any promise of enlightenment in five to eight years. My initiator did mention a five-year period in response to a question during three days' checking, but the way he told it, five years was the *fastest* one could expect to get enlightened. He made it very clear that it was highly individual and could take a lot longer. Also, I noticed from the very beginning that the TMO wasn't certifying anyone as enlightened. When someone asked this same teacher during the same three days' checking whether anyone had become enlightened *yet*, the teacher said MMY just didn't *do* certification, that you'd know when you were enlightened. Then he was asked if *he* was enlightened, and he said MMY didn't want anybody to say they were or they weren't; it just wasn't something one discussed. That made sense to me at the time, and it's never bothered me in the slightest that there's no certification. I'm pretty sure some people *have* become enlightened--in fact, I suspect quite a few-- but it's just not anything I worry about. It does seem to me that getting into certification would open up a variety of wormy cans (assuming there were folks who would qualify) that would far outweigh any benefit of doing so. And people still not only pay for the distractions from the original promise, they seem to be hungry for more. It's like they want the TMO to keep the distractions coming, so that they never have to deal with the fact that the original promise was a lie. Watch out, Ruth's on the warpath against calling things lies when they aren't (especially, I'd expect, when it was a lie is prefaced by the fact that). The original prediction didn't pan out. There's no basis for calling it a lie. Me, I preferred to accept that the original promise was a lie and walk away. Doing so saved me from having to deal with any of the programs (really distractions) listed in the paragraph above. Hmm, you wouldn't have had to actually walk away to avoid the distractions. (Maybe from employment by the TMO, but not from the programs you had already paid for.) It also saved me a shitload of money. There are probably people on this forum who have spent tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars on these add-on, extra-cost spiritual distractions, while ignoring the original promise that was made to them. Well under $10 thou for me (and as noted, I never knew there was a promise (i.e., a prediction) to be ignored until I heard about it on alt.m.t). Only things I feel I didn't get my money's worth (and more) from were Chopra's techniques and a weekend pulse-reading course from Douillard, but I didn't stick with either for very long. Just took more time than I was willing to spend.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of authfriend Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:39 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Distractions --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: snip I could not help but notice at the time that I walked away from TM that NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAD EVER BEEN CERTIFIED BY THE TMO AS ENLIGHTENED. NOT ONE. guffaw I could not help but notice... Moi, I started TM in 1975 and never heard any promise of enlightenment in five to eight years. My initiator did mention a five-year period in response to a question during three days' checking, but the way he told it, five years was the *fastest* one could expect to get enlightened. He made it very clear that it was highly individual and could take a lot longer. I know quite a few who have gotten enlightened (I don't like the terminology). Maybe it's just because I don't hang around with many true-blue Ru's, but most of the people I'm referring to, although appreciative of the contribution MMY and TM have made to their lives, are in a fairly distant orbit from the movement. In some cases, it appears to me that their awakening occurred shortly after they distanced themselves from the movement and thus broke free of habitual belief patterns. Or maybe they distanced themselves because they were awakening (graduating) and those belief patterns were beginning to unravel. Hard to tell which is the cart and which the horse. The TMO/MUM is an incubator. Once you've hatched, you're probably going to want to expand your territory and not stay in the incubator.
