[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: Now concerning this post by Barry I have no substantial argument with it at all, though I disagree with some points. I started to write this as soon as the post appeared, but due to contingencies, had to delay finishing responding for about a day. This is a reply to the original post rather than the follow ups by others. Just FYI, this post of Barry's is intended almost exclusively as an attack on me--again. Yes, maybe, but there are issues in his post that are relevant to what happens when information is tampered with. Sure, that's interesting stuff. I think you overreact a bit to Turq's posts sometimes. Look, I've been dealing with him for 15 years. I know how he operates; his tactics haven't changed much. There's no reason you'd be aware of all the issues he has with me or be able to recognize when a post of his about a particular topic is based on one of those issues when it doesn't mention me specifically. I'm one of what he calls the Memorex set in that I was never in MMY's presence, unlike most here. While I wish I had had that opportunity, it's not something I ever brood about. We all have things we'd like to have done that we never got the chance to do for one reason or another. Spending time with MMY isn't even that high on my list--if I had to choose between that and having continued my piano lessons, for example, I'd pick the latter without the slightest hesitation. But somewhere along the line Barry decided that it must make me terribly unhappy to be reminded of the fact that I never met MMY, which is absurd because I mention it often myself. And he's put together a whole bunch of ways to try to make me feel inadequate about it, all totally futile. This post was yet another one. I don't have much emotional attachment to the posts. Women seem to me more sensitive to social cues, and seem to try to read between the lines of what is said. That said, I do not understand women, so my analysis could be wrong. No, I think you're quite right, generally speaking. That isn't all that's involved here, however. Guys are much simpler, we tend to trade information only, no feelings. Some posts here are to get people to think, and some are just bait on a hook. Yet even though there are very few women on this forum, there are plenty of feelings on display among the men. Maybe involvement with spiritual pursuits tends to open men up a little more than would otherwise be expected. You do not seem to be a TM true believer, but have realised the value of what you learned. Well, I hope I have to some extent. There's a lot to be realized. Ultimately we have to verify everything ourselves, not on the basis of belief. You often seem to criticise posts for faulty logic or factual discrepancies, which is a good thing. I am surely not prone to supreme perfection, and if I make a mistake, a factual blunder, a mistaken judgement, or just say something incredibly naive or stupid, attack away. Don't see any basis for *attacking* you, but I wouldn't have any hesitation about questioning your points if I thought they were shaky! So far, I've appreciated almost everything you've said. You bring a very thoughtful analytical perspective to the discussions you've participated in. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: snip Glenn Gould's recording company found ways to *edit out* his humming and moaning, so the Memorex set would not even be aware that he brought that kind of passion to his music. snip The engineers were only partially successful in suppressing Gould's humming, thought they did try to minimize its impact on the recording. It's common knowledge among the Memorex set that Gould hummed and moaned while he was playing, not some big secret that the engineers managed to hide. I don't think it was the result of his great passion. I think it was a lack of control--in the sense that Gould exerted such an *extraordinary* degree of control over his playing that he simply didn't have any left over to control his vocal chords. (Cords! Cords! Cords! Ai...how embarrassing!) That might be, Gould was very idiosyncratic in his performances. What is interesting to me is Bach's instrument, the harpsichord, cannot produce most of the effects that Gould implements in his performances. A good harpsichordist is very adept at subtle internal shifts of rhythm. Gould's brilliance in these pieces (the Aria with 30 Variations) often seems to be the result of deliberately eschewing a more 'standard' pianistic technique; he dared to be experimental. Playing Bach on the piano is really a transcription to a very different medium. It is indeed. I'm
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
When we at the Regional Office would get the latest dictum from International saying that we had to get all teachers to give back their copies of tapes X, Y and Z... So, I'm the only respondent on this forum that has listened to MMY's commercial recordings on vinyl, cassette, and DVD? Go figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: Now concerning this post by Barry I have no substantial argument with it at all, though I disagree with some points. I started to write this as soon as the post appeared, but due to contingencies, had to delay finishing responding for about a day. This is a reply to the original post rather than the follow ups by others. Just FYI, this post of Barry's is intended almost exclusively as an attack on me--again. Yes, maybe, but there are issues in his post that are relevant to what happens when information is tampered with. Sure, that's interesting stuff. I think you overreact a bit to Turq's posts sometimes. Look, I've been dealing with him for 15 years. I know how he operates; his tactics haven't changed much. There's no reason you'd be aware of all the issues he has with me or be able to recognize when a post of his about a particular topic is based on one of those issues when it doesn't mention me specifically. I am sure I would not, at least now, be able to identify all those issues of the past, not having enough time to read years of posts. I do find both of you intriguing. I'm one of what he calls the Memorex set in that I was never in MMY's presence, unlike most here. While I wish I had had that opportunity, it's not something I ever brood about. We all have things we'd like to have done that we never got the chance to do for one reason or another. Spending time with MMY isn't even that high on my list--if I had to choose between that and having continued my piano lessons, for example, I'd pick the latter without the slightest hesitation. While I got to see Maharishi on a few occasions, I do not think that was the most important thing, at least for me. Watching a tape, or on live television not being in the same room did not seem to make much difference. However I do feel an edited tape has a great potential to be misleading. Assuming a tape is unedited, ones understanding of it might change seeing it again years later, gives one a second shot at it. The important thing is the essential message gets through. sometimes that can happen with an edited tape, but without knowing who fudged the recording. Vernon Katz once told me he had all these tapes of Maharishi, the commentary on the Bhagavad-Gita, and he was worried about their preservation. I would have loved to transfer them, but had no recourse at the time to go to England, so I have no idea what their status or location is now. So I told him what I thought had to be done and hoped he would be able to take some action. This was the only time I ever met him. I never met Socrates, I never met Jesus, I never met Buddha, I never met Bach, or Handel, or Mozart, or Beethoven, or Pasteur, or Einstein. They have all enriched my life nonetheless. But somewhere along the line Barry decided that it must make me terribly unhappy to be reminded of the fact that I never met MMY, which is absurd because I mention it often myself. And he's put together a whole bunch of ways to try to make me feel inadequate about it, all totally futile. This post was yet another one. I don't have much emotional attachment to the posts. Women seem to me more sensitive to social cues, and seem to try to read between the lines of what is said. That said, I do not understand women, so my analysis could be wrong. No, I think you're quite right, generally speaking. That isn't all that's involved here, however. Guys are much simpler, we tend to trade information only, no feelings. Some posts here are to get people to think, and some are just bait on a hook. Yet even though there are very few women on this forum, there are plenty of feelings on display among the men. Maybe involvement with spiritual pursuits tends to open men up a little more than would otherwise be expected. I would agree with this. It is very surprising how much emotion can arise as the impacted experiences of the past crack loose and pour out. You do not seem to be a TM true believer, but have realised the value of what you learned. Well, I hope I have to some extent. There's a lot to be realized. There are a lot of things to know, but only one thing to realise. Ultimately we have to verify everything ourselves, not on the basis of belief. You often seem to criticise posts for faulty logic or factual discrepancies, which is a good thing. I am surely not prone to supreme perfection, and if I make a mistake, a factual blunder, a mistaken judgement, or just say something incredibly naive or stupid, attack away. Don't see any basis for *attacking* you, but
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
Now concerning this post by Barry I have no substantial argument with it at all, though I disagree with some points. I started to write this as soon as the post appeared, but due to contingencies, had to delay finishing responding for about a day. This is a reply to the original post rather than the follow ups by others. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Most who grew up in the US remember the old TV and radio commercials Is it real, or is it Memorex? The idea being presented in those commercials was that many people can't tell the difference between a live performance and one that was recorded on Memorex-brand tape. I think that the ad agency that thought this up was bril- liant, because there are many people who *can't* tell the difference. Furthermore, they would argue that they, having only heard the recorded versions of, say, Segovia's work, or Keith Jarret's, or Glenn Gould's know as much about the work and the artist as someone who actually saw them perform. With Jarrett, for example, who is famous for... uh...acting out his musical performances by rocking and swaying back and forth on the piano stool, and (like Glenn Gould) uncontrollably humming along with his own music, someone who knew only the recordings could have gained a feeling about the music and the artist that was erroneous. Glenn Gould's recording company found ways to *edit out* his humming and moaning, so the Memorex set would not even be aware that he brought that kind of passion to his music. Once Gould had recorded a Bach fugue, several different takes. One was very clipped and kind of staccato, the other more lyrical. Gould and the editor noticed that the two takes were almost the same duration, and they cut the two together, using the more lyrical take for the episodic passages between the fugal entry sections. In this case the result was rather nice, but of course it was not a live performance. The engineers were only partially successful in suppressing Gould's humming, thought they did try to minimize its impact on the recording. This points out that sometimes editing has a positive side. In a recorded performance, one does not want to hear the same glitches over and over. Once I heard a live performance by the Russian pianist Sviatoslav Richter, and he missed a few notes, but there is a different dynamic live compared to recorded. There is more tension in the air, studio recordings are in a more relaxed environment, not so many things impinging on the artist, like several thousand people focused on you, and no possibility of retakes. Richter started to play, then stopped, got off the seat and removed the whole music stand section of the piano and put it on the floor. A certain sense of humor came through and it broke the ice with the audience. Then he started anew. Now think spiritual teachers. But recorded music versus live is a different situation than with spiritual teachers. It is one thing to remove minor glitches, e.g., the endless uhs that most speakers cannot seem to suppress. Things like this can be edited out of an audio recording without distorting the message or the character significantly, but you cannot do it in video without an obvious visual discrepancy. And extensive editing can result in a message that is distinctly different than the original. When classical music recordings are made, usually the notes are not removed or altered in some way, and some musicians take great pains to go to at least photocopies of original manuscripts to determine the text they are performing. Cutting the actual text of what was said can make for something decidedly different There are some on this forum -- and there is no need to name them because you all know who they are -- who seem to feel that having only dealt with the Memorex version of Maharishi, they know the essence of What he taught, and similarly know things about him as an individual or about his state of consciousness. I think this stance is...uh...self-serving bullshit served up by those who are anxious to hide the fact that they were willing to settle for the expurgated version of the teacher they claim to know things about. You on this forum who met Maharishi, or who spent hours, days, weeks, months, and years sitting in rooms listening to him talk, or working side by side with him getting to see *how* he worked, try to imagine for a moment the level of AVERSION a supposedly strong TMer must have had to have meditated regularly for 20 to 30 years and yet *avoided* ever seeing him in public. It's almost unbelievable. Claiming to revere someone as a great spiritual teacher, or even *their teacher* or master, and yet finding ways *for decades* to avoid ever meeting him. And *then*, years later, presenting themselves as authorities on What Maharishi taught. Scary. I am not sure your characterisation of people avoiding Maharishi is accurate.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius
anartaxius@... wrote:
Now concerning this post by Barry I have no substantial
argument with it at all, though I disagree with some
points. I started to write this as soon as the post
appeared, but due to contingencies, had to delay
finishing responding for about a day. This is a reply
to the original post rather than the follow ups by
others.
Just FYI, this post of Barry's is intended almost
exclusively as an attack on me--again.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote:
snip
Glenn Gould's recording company found ways to *edit out*
his humming and moaning, so the Memorex set would not even
be aware that he brought that kind of passion to his music.
snip
The engineers were only partially successful in suppressing
Gould's humming, thought they did try to minimize its impact
on the recording.
It's common knowledge among the Memorex set that Gould
hummed and moaned while he was playing, not some big
secret that the engineers managed to hide.
I don't think it was the result of his great passion. I
think it was a lack of control--in the sense that Gould
exerted such an *extraordinary* degree of control over
his playing that he simply didn't have any left over to
control his vocal chords.
snip
I am not sure your characterisation of people avoiding
Maharishi is accurate. There are some that maybe thought
Maharishi could see through them in some way, and were
afraid for that reason, but all the people I knew seemed
to have the opposite view, they wanted to see him if
they could.
Same here. I wonder why anyone would assume any such
avoidance syndrome. Plenty of rank-and-filers didn't
particularly care, but nobody I knew actively didn't
want to see him. There seems to be a special effort
here to put down those who never spent time with MMY,
but it's unclear why anyone would want to do that.
snip
The dynamic of live interaction of Maharishi with questions
is much more clearly experienced; offhand comments reveal
aspects of the situation often more truly that the standard
patter. These kind of things tend to be edited out of
movement tapes.
I saw several terrific tapes of QA sessions in the early
days of my involvement with TM ('75-80). Don't know if
they're still available, and if they are it's certainly
possible they've been edited down. But they did have a
wonderfully dynamic quality, and one did get at least
some sense of MMY's personality, more than there was in
the straight lectures.
A strange things seems to happen in spiritual movements as
they grow, especially after the founder is gone. The message
seems to get de-emphasised and more emphasis is put on the
nature of the founder. An acquaintence of mine came up with
the phrase 'ecclesiastical bureaucrats' to describe those
that tend to filter into a spiritual organization.
Great phrase. The movement becomes more about preserving
the institution than preserving the message, the founder
being symbolic of the institution.
snip
Look at what happened to Christianity, how many versions
of this man exist today? No original material survives.
There are no contemporary accounts (although there is
what is considered an obvious interpolation in the
history of Josephus). The earliest records are certain
letters from Paul to various Christian groups, and some
of these are thought to be only in his name.
And he had never met Jesus! Hmmm...Christianity's
most authoritative theologian and conveyor of Christ's
message, and he'd never been in the same room with him.
All the literature that existed was worked over by
committee, kept or rejected, and massaged into a more or
less standard form. As a result we have no good idea of
what Jesus taught, just some tantalising clues. Of course,
there are thousands today who will tell us they know
exactly was Jesus' message was.
This has happened in the TMO much sooner than in
Christianity.
I don't think we know how soon it began to happen with
Christianity. But it wouldn't be at all surprising if
it did take longer, simply because of the fact that it
was quite some time before the teachings that were being
passed around orally--and undergoing who knows how many
changes--were set down on paper where they could be
deliberately edited. And the editing process itself was
much more laborious in the absence of modern technology.
MMY's intention practically from the start--quite unlike
that of Jesus--was to have his teaching recorded for
posterity (ironically so it *wouldn't* be changed). That
meant that the inevitable process of shaping the
teaching got started much earlier (much of it by MMY's
own hand).
So I don't think the two cases are really comparable in
that regard.
snip
And yet they talk, talk, talk about the truth of What
Maharishi taught, which they know solely from his tapes and
his books (some of which were not even written by him). Truth?
I say to them the same thing
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: snip I don't think it was the result of his great passion. I think it was a lack of control--in the sense that Gould exerted such an *extraordinary* degree of control over his playing that he simply didn't have any left over to control his vocal chords. Oy gevalt. *Cords*, not chords. I wince every time I see someone else make this mistake, and now I've done it myself! facepalm
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@
wrote:
Now concerning this post by Barry I have no substantial
argument with it at all, though I disagree with some
points. I started to write this as soon as the post
appeared, but due to contingencies, had to delay
finishing responding for about a day. This is a reply
to the original post rather than the follow ups by
others.
Just FYI, this post of Barry's is intended almost
exclusively as an attack on me--again.
Yes, maybe, but there are issues in his post that are relevant to what happens
when information is tampered with. I think you overreact a bit to Turq's posts
sometimes. I don't have much emotional attachment to the posts. Women seem to
me more sensitive to social cues, and seem to try to read between the lines of
what is said. That said, I do not understand women, so my analysis could be
wrong. Guys are much simpler, we tend to trade information only, no feelings.
Some posts here are to get people to think, and some are just bait on a hook.
You do not seem to be a TM true believer, but have realised the value of what
you learned. Ultimately we have to verify everything ourselves, not on the
basis of belief. You often seem to criticise posts for faulty logic or factual
discrepancies, which is a good thing. I am surely not prone to supreme
perfection, and if I make a mistake, a factual blunder, a mistaken judgement,
or just say something incredibly naive or stupid, attack away.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote:
snip
Glenn Gould's recording company found ways to *edit out*
his humming and moaning, so the Memorex set would not even
be aware that he brought that kind of passion to his music.
snip
The engineers were only partially successful in suppressing
Gould's humming, thought they did try to minimize its impact
on the recording.
It's common knowledge among the Memorex set that Gould
hummed and moaned while he was playing, not some big
secret that the engineers managed to hide.
I don't think it was the result of his great passion. I
think it was a lack of control--in the sense that Gould
exerted such an *extraordinary* degree of control over
his playing that he simply didn't have any left over to
control his vocal chords.
That might be, Gould was very idiosyncratic in his performances. What is
interesting to me is Bach's instrument, the harpsichord, cannot produce most of
the effects that Gould implements in his performances. A good harpsichordist is
very adept at subtle internal shifts of rhythm. Gould's brilliance in these
pieces (the Aria with 30 Variations) often seems to be the result of
deliberately eschewing a more 'standard' pianistic technique; he dared to be
experimental. Playing Bach on the piano is really a transcription to a very
different medium.
snip
I am not sure your characterisation of people avoiding
Maharishi is accurate. There are some that maybe thought
Maharishi could see through them in some way, and were
afraid for that reason, but all the people I knew seemed
to have the opposite view, they wanted to see him if
they could.
Same here. I wonder why anyone would assume any such
avoidance syndrome. Plenty of rank-and-filers didn't
particularly care, but nobody I knew actively didn't
want to see him. There seems to be a special effort
here to put down those who never spent time with MMY,
but it's unclear why anyone would want to do that.
snip
The dynamic of live interaction of Maharishi with questions
is much more clearly experienced; offhand comments reveal
aspects of the situation often more truly that the standard
patter. These kind of things tend to be edited out of
movement tapes.
I saw several terrific tapes of QA sessions in the early
days of my involvement with TM ('75-80). Don't know if
they're still available, and if they are it's certainly
possible they've been edited down. But they did have a
wonderfully dynamic quality, and one did get at least
some sense of MMY's personality, more than there was in
the straight lectures.
A strange things seems to happen in spiritual movements as
they grow, especially after the founder is gone. The message
seems to get de-emphasised and more emphasis is put on the
nature of the founder. An acquaintance of mine came up with
the phrase 'ecclesiastical bureaucrats' to describe those
that tend to filter into a spiritual organization.
Great phrase. The movement becomes more about preserving
the institution than preserving the message, the founder
being symbolic of the institution.
snip
Look at what happened to Christianity, how many versions
of this man exist today? No original material survives.
There are no contemporary accounts (although there is
what is considered an obvious interpolation in the
history of
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
I Remember the Actual Commercial Being: 'Is it 'Live' or is it 'Memorex?' --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Most who grew up in the US remember the old TV and radio commercials Is it real, or is it Memorex? The idea being presented in those commercials was that many people can't tell the difference between a live performance and one that was recorded on Memorex-brand tape. I think that the ad agency that thought this up was bril- liant, because there are many people who *can't* tell the difference. Furthermore, they would argue that they, having only heard the recorded versions of, say, Segovia's work, or Keith Jarret's, or Glenn Gould's know as much about the work and the artist as someone who actually saw them perform. With Jarrett, for example, who is famous for... uh...acting out his musical performances by rocking and swaying back and forth on the piano stool, and (like Glenn Gould) uncontrollably humming along with his own music, someone who knew only the recordings could have gained a feeling about the music and the artist that was erroneous. Glenn Gould's recording company found ways to *edit out* his humming and moaning, so the Memorex set would not even be aware that he brought that kind of passion to his music. Now think spiritual teachers. There are some on this forum -- and there is no need to name them because you all know who they are -- who seem to feel that having only dealt with the Memorex version of Maharishi, they know the essence of What he taught, and similarly know things about him as an individual or about his state of consciousness. I think this stance is...uh...self-serving bullshit served up by those who are anxious to hide the fact that they were willing to settle for the expurgated version of the teacher they claim to know things about. You on this forum who met Maharishi, or who spent hours, days, weeks, months, and years sitting in rooms listening to him talk, or working side by side with him getting to see *how* he worked, try to imagine for a moment the level of AVERSION a supposedly strong TMer must have had to have meditated regularly for 20 to 30 years and yet *avoided* ever seeing him in public. It's almost unbelievable. Claiming to revere someone as a great spiritual teacher, or even *their teacher* or master, and yet finding ways *for decades* to avoid ever meeting him. And *then*, years later, presenting themselves as authorities on What Maharishi taught. Scary. When it comes to spiritual teachers, my contention is that there is a difference between real and Memorex. If nothing else, the Memorex version disallows any perception of the teacher's vibe, and what it was like to be around him. How can the Memorex set even *begin* to claim to be know- ledgeable enough about the subject of charisma or darshan if they have never experienced it? And yet they do. On another level, there is the issue of expurgation. At one point in my life, I would say that I had probably listened to or watched as many tapes of Maharishi as anyone on this forum. I was in charge of the Western Regional Office, and thus in charge of its tape library, which contained thousands of tapes. All of them were essentially my private video and audio library. I could take them home and listen to them anytime I wanted, and was such a TB dweeb that I actually did. :-) But then, about 1976, the first recalls and attempts at systematic expurgation started. We started getting demands from International to send them our copies of certain tapes. And when I say demands, I mean demands. If we did not comply, they sent someone over to the US to collect them from us. We were then told that they would be replaced by newer, better quality versions of the same tapes. This was only partially true. About 50% of the recalled tapes never appeared again in any format. And the tapes that were actually replaced invariably had shrunk somewhat. It was not uncommon for a tape that originally had lasted for 40 minutes and touched on some interesting or touchy subjects to come back to us in a new, improved version that was only 20 minutes long, carefully edited to make it seem that there had been no editing. At that point I stopped listening to the tapes, because I knew that there was never going to be anything interesting on any of them from then on out. Now try to imagine the Memorex set, who never knew that this was being done. There they'd be, sitting in some TM center or on some residence course thinking that they were getting the real Maharishi, all while listening to the 20-minute expurgated version of one of his tapes. But the biggest issue is that the Memorex set *never met the man*. They never had a chance to sit through an unexpur- gated lecture, and watch his thought processes as he form- lated it, without the benefit of revisionist history editing
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Most who grew up in the US remember the old TV and radio commercials Is it real, or is it Memorex? The idea being presented in those commercials was that many people can't tell the difference between a live performance and one that was recorded on Memorex-brand tape. I think that the ad agency that thought this up was bril- liant, because there are many people who *can't* tell the difference. Furthermore, they would argue that they, having only heard the recorded versions of, say, Segovia's work, or Keith Jarret's, or Glenn Gould's know as much about the work and the artist as someone who actually saw them perform. With Jarrett, for example, who is famous for... uh...acting out his musical performances by rocking and swaying back and forth on the piano stool, and (like Glenn Gould) uncontrollably humming along with his own music, someone who knew only the recordings could have gained a feeling about the music and the artist that was erroneous. Glenn Gould's recording company found ways to *edit out* his humming and moaning, so the Memorex set would not even be aware that he brought that kind of passion to his music. Now think spiritual teachers. There are some on this forum -- and there is no need to name them because you all know who they are -- who seem to feel that having only dealt with the Memorex version of Maharishi, they know the essence of What he taught, and similarly know things about him as an individual or about his state of consciousness. I think this stance is...uh...self-serving bullshit served up by those who are anxious to hide the fact that they were willing to settle for the expurgated version of the teacher they claim to know things about. You on this forum who met Maharishi, or who spent hours, days, weeks, months, and years sitting in rooms listening to him talk, or working side by side with him getting to see *how* he worked, try to imagine for a moment the level of AVERSION a supposedly strong TMer must have had to have meditated regularly for 20 to 30 years and yet *avoided* ever seeing him in public. It's almost unbelievable. Claiming to revere someone as a great spiritual teacher, or even *their teacher* or master, and yet finding ways *for decades* to avoid ever meeting him. And *then*, years later, presenting themselves as authorities on What Maharishi taught. Scary. When it comes to spiritual teachers, my contention is that there is a difference between real and Memorex. If nothing else, the Memorex version disallows any perception of the teacher's vibe, and what it was like to be around him. How can the Memorex set even *begin* to claim to be know- ledgeable enough about the subject of charisma or darshan if they have never experienced it? And yet they do. On another level, there is the issue of expurgation. At one point in my life, I would say that I had probably listened to or watched as many tapes of Maharishi as anyone on this forum. I was in charge of the Western Regional Office, and thus in charge of its tape library, which contained thousands of tapes. All of them were essentially my private video and audio library. I could take them home and listen to them anytime I wanted, and was such a TB dweeb that I actually did. :-) But then, about 1976, the first recalls and attempts at systematic expurgation started. We started getting demands from International to send them our copies of certain tapes. And when I say demands, I mean demands. If we did not comply, they sent someone over to the US to collect them from us. We were then told that they would be replaced by newer, better quality versions of the same tapes. This was only partially true. About 50% of the recalled tapes never appeared again in any format. And the tapes that were actually replaced invariably had shrunk somewhat. It was not uncommon for a tape that originally had lasted for 40 minutes and touched on some interesting or touchy subjects to come back to us in a new, improved version that was only 20 minutes long, carefully edited to make it seem that there had been no editing. This did happen - tapes being recalled and some never replaced. Do you recall specifically what was edited out on a few of them?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: On another level, there is the issue of expurgation. At one point in my life, I would say that I had probably listened to or watched as many tapes of Maharishi as anyone on this forum. I was in charge of the Western Regional Office, and thus in charge of its tape library, which contained thousands of tapes. All of them were essentially my private video and audio library. I could take them home and listen to them anytime I wanted, and was such a TB dweeb that I actually did. :-) But then, about 1976, the first recalls and attempts at systematic expurgation started. We started getting demands from International to send them our copies of certain tapes. And when I say demands, I mean demands. If we did not comply, they sent someone over to the US to collect them from us. We were then told that they would be replaced by newer, better quality versions of the same tapes. This was only partially true. About 50% of the recalled tapes never appeared again in any format. And the tapes that were actually replaced invariably had shrunk somewhat. It was not uncommon for a tape that originally had lasted for 40 minutes and touched on some interesting or touchy subjects to come back to us in a new, improved version that was only 20 minutes long, carefully edited to make it seem that there had been no editing. This did happen - tapes being recalled and some never replaced. The capper was that when replacements were made available, the Regional Office or the individual TM Centers from which the original tapes were confiscated *had to pay for them again*. Do you recall specifically what was edited out on a few of them? When this revisionist history process first started it was clearly tied to the recent TM is a religion controversy and lawsuits in the US. Most of what was edited out involved MMY talking about God, or putting down the Western version of religion. At the same time, topics that deviated from the SCI or SIMS point of view were edited out. This involved SRM-ish topics such as reincarnation or saints and deities and talks in which Maharishi used traditional Hindu terms for concepts instead of English terms. Once the first wave of this revisionist history passed, and the individual teachers and TM Centers realized they'd been had, they wised up. When we at the Regional Office would get the latest dictum from International saying that we had to get all teachers to give back their copies of tapes X, Y and Z, and we'd call the centers asking for these tapes, we'd be told that they had gotten lost, and that the teachers or centers no longer had them. They were lying, and we knew they were lying, but we actually agreed with their position and reported back to Seelisberg what we'd been told. It was a nudge nudge, wink wink kind of thing.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: On another level, there is the issue of expurgation. At one point in my life, I would say that I had probably listened to or watched as many tapes of Maharishi as anyone on this forum. I was in charge of the Western Regional Office, and thus in charge of its tape library, which contained thousands of tapes. All of them were essentially my private video and audio library. I could take them home and listen to them anytime I wanted, and was such a TB dweeb that I actually did. :-) But then, about 1976, the first recalls and attempts at systematic expurgation started. We started getting demands from International to send them our copies of certain tapes. And when I say demands, I mean demands. If we did not comply, they sent someone over to the US to collect them from us. We were then told that they would be replaced by newer, better quality versions of the same tapes. This was only partially true. About 50% of the recalled tapes never appeared again in any format. And the tapes that were actually replaced invariably had shrunk somewhat. It was not uncommon for a tape that originally had lasted for 40 minutes and touched on some interesting or touchy subjects to come back to us in a new, improved version that was only 20 minutes long, carefully edited to make it seem that there had been no editing. This did happen - tapes being recalled and some never replaced. The capper was that when replacements were made available, the Regional Office or the individual TM Centers from which the original tapes were confiscated *had to pay for them again*. Yes, a milder version of local centers raising money for and buying land or buildings, only to have proceeds from the eventual sale of the center go to International. If they ever again needed a center, they had to start all over raising money just to rent something. Do you recall specifically what was edited out on a few of them? When this revisionist history process first started it was clearly tied to the recent TM is a religion controversy and lawsuits in the US. Most of what was edited out involved MMY talking about God, or putting down the Western version of religion. At the same time, topics that deviated from the SCI or SIMS point of view were edited out. This involved SRM-ish topics such as reincarnation or saints and deities and talks in which Maharishi used traditional Hindu terms for concepts instead of English terms. Once the first wave of this revisionist history passed, and the individual teachers and TM Centers realized they'd been had, they wised up. When we at the Regional Office would get the latest dictum from International saying that we had to get all teachers to give back their copies of tapes X, Y and Z, and we'd call the centers asking for these tapes, we'd be told that they had gotten lost, and that the teachers or centers no longer had them. They were lying, and we knew they were lying, but we actually agreed with their position and reported back to Seelisberg what we'd been told. It was a nudge nudge, wink wink kind of thing. Yes, this happened. Do you have any knowledge about who exactly at International made these decisions about recalls? Was this MMY's idea?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: On another level, there is the issue of expurgation. At one point in my life, I would say that I had probably listened to or watched as many tapes of Maharishi as anyone on this forum. I was in charge of the Western Regional Office, and thus in charge of its tape library, which contained thousands of tapes. All of them were essentially my private video and audio library. I could take them home and listen to them anytime I wanted, and was such a TB dweeb that I actually did. :-) But then, about 1976, the first recalls and attempts at systematic expurgation started. We started getting demands from International to send them our copies of certain tapes. And when I say demands, I mean demands. If we did not comply, they sent someone over to the US to collect them from us. We were then told that they would be replaced by newer, better quality versions of the same tapes. This was only partially true. About 50% of the recalled tapes never appeared again in any format. And the tapes that were actually replaced invariably had shrunk somewhat. It was not uncommon for a tape that originally had lasted for 40 minutes and touched on some interesting or touchy subjects to come back to us in a new, improved version that was only 20 minutes long, carefully edited to make it seem that there had been no editing. This did happen - tapes being recalled and some never replaced. The capper was that when replacements were made available, the Regional Office or the individual TM Centers from which the original tapes were confiscated *had to pay for them again*. Yes, a milder version of local centers raising money for and buying land or buildings, only to have proceeds from the eventual sale of the center go to International. If they ever again needed a center, they had to start all over raising money just to rent something. Do you recall specifically what was edited out on a few of them? When this revisionist history process first started it was clearly tied to the recent TM is a religion controversy and lawsuits in the US. Most of what was edited out involved MMY talking about God, or putting down the Western version of religion. At the same time, topics that deviated from the SCI or SIMS point of view were edited out. This involved SRM-ish topics such as reincarnation or saints and deities and talks in which Maharishi used traditional Hindu terms for concepts instead of English terms. Once the first wave of this revisionist history passed, and the individual teachers and TM Centers realized they'd been had, they wised up. When we at the Regional Office would get the latest dictum from International saying that we had to get all teachers to give back their copies of tapes X, Y and Z, and we'd call the centers asking for these tapes, we'd be told that they had gotten lost, and that the teachers or centers no longer had them. They were lying, and we knew they were lying, but we actually agreed with their position and reported back to Seelisberg what we'd been told. It was a nudge nudge, wink wink kind of thing. Yes, this happened. Do you have any knowledge about who exactly at International made these decisions about recalls? Was this MMY's idea? I have no idea, sorry. We'd just receive the decrees from some amorphous entity in Switzerland called Inter- national. Even Jerry, when he disagreed with one of their decrees, couldn't do anything about them or refuse to go along with them.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@... wrote:Who? important point and question since the same thing happen ...mmh... just not log ago check out #275062 and #259400 and weep --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: On another level, there is the issue of expurgation. At one point in my life, I would say that I had probably listened to or watched as many tapes of Maharishi as anyone on this forum. I was in charge of the Western Regional Office, and thus in charge of its tape library, which contained thousands of tapes. All of them were essentially my private video and audio library. I could take them home and listen to them anytime I wanted, and was such a TB dweeb that I actually did. :-) But then, about 1976, the first recalls and attempts at systematic expurgation started. We started getting demands from International to send them our copies of certain tapes. And when I say demands, I mean demands. If we did not comply, they sent someone over to the US to collect them from us. We were then told that they would be replaced by newer, better quality versions of the same tapes. This was only partially true. About 50% of the recalled tapes never appeared again in any format. And the tapes that were actually replaced invariably had shrunk somewhat. It was not uncommon for a tape that originally had lasted for 40 minutes and touched on some interesting or touchy subjects to come back to us in a new, improved version that was only 20 minutes long, carefully edited to make it seem that there had been no editing. This did happen - tapes being recalled and some never replaced. The capper was that when replacements were made available, the Regional Office or the individual TM Centers from which the original tapes were confiscated *had to pay for them again*. Yes, a milder version of local centers raising money for and buying land or buildings, only to have proceeds from the eventual sale of the center go to International. If they ever again needed a center, they had to start all over raising money just to rent something. Do you recall specifically what was edited out on a few of them? When this revisionist history process first started it was clearly tied to the recent TM is a religion controversy and lawsuits in the US. Most of what was edited out involved MMY talking about God, or putting down the Western version of religion. At the same time, topics that deviated from the SCI or SIMS point of view were edited out. This involved SRM-ish topics such as reincarnation or saints and deities and talks in which Maharishi used traditional Hindu terms for concepts instead of English terms. Once the first wave of this revisionist history passed, and the individual teachers and TM Centers realized they'd been had, they wised up. When we at the Regional Office would get the latest dictum from International saying that we had to get all teachers to give back their copies of tapes X, Y and Z, and we'd call the centers asking for these tapes, we'd be told that they had gotten lost, and that the teachers or centers no longer had them. They were lying, and we knew they were lying, but we actually agreed with their position and reported back to Seelisberg what we'd been told. It was a nudge nudge, wink wink kind of thing. Yes, this happened. Do you have any knowledge about who exactly at International made these decisions about recalls? Was this MMY's idea?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
OMG talking about You can't *handle* the truth. heavy stuff for the weekend , dude [:D] ...lol --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: snip That's the picture of Maharishi that I think the Memorex set has. I think they cling to it because they're reluctant to admit their own spiritual laziness in never having expended the effort to actually see him live, and I think that they cling to it because they actually *prefer* the simplistic, heavily edited, expurgated version of the man and What he taught. And yet they talk, talk, talk about the truth of What Maharishi taught, which they know solely from his tapes and his books (some of which were not even written by him). Truth? I say to them the same thing Jack Nicholson said to Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men. The truth? You can't *handle* the truth. ... then what is your ' take of the interview of P .Mason the biographer of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - i found at: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ark/stories/2008/2160504.htm Rachael Kohn: Paul, did you ever meet Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? Paul Mason: Initially I wanted to, and then I changed my mind. I thought, Well this man has such a profound effect on all of his followers - Mike Love of The Beach Boys and The Beatles - their lives never seemed the same. I was determined to get close to him to find out as much as I possibly could, to be a sort of fly on the wall. But I held back from getting too close to him. Rachael Kohn: Why? Paul Mason: I think he had an incredible hold over his followers. I think he had an almost hypnotic, mesmerising effect on people, and I guess I would be as vulnerable as anybody else to that, and I could see that, so I didn't want to get that involved. in IMHO wouln't it be great if Deepak Chopra had done the same (BTW according our personal first- and last - contact he was afraid, too..)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
...they're reluctant to admit their own spiritual laziness in never having expended the effort to actually see him live, and I think that they cling to it because they actually *prefer* the simplistic, heavily edited, expurgated version of the man and What he taught. merudanda: You can't *handle* the truth... That's funny, but the truth is, almost nobody in the TMO spent any prolonged time face-to-face, one on one, with the Maharisihi, except maybe Jerry and Debbie Jarvis. It is a myth that anyone spent any length of time in the company of MMY. Apparently MMY visited Fairfield, IA on one single occasion, and never even set foot in Washington D.C. or Portland, OR. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. MMY was in Los Angeles only a few times, for a few days, so after 1965, when he was at Lake Arrowhead, he didn't spend much time with anyone associated with SIMS or the rank and file that passed out leaflets. It's a fact that MMY wasn't even visited by anyone in the last twenty years of his life at Vlodrop. Go figure. All these early details are available in the book Thirty Years Around the World. I've probably spent more face-time with MMY at 433 than anyone on the FFL forum. I sat in the front row at the theater on Wilshire Blvd on ALL occasions when MMY was in LA. The last time I saw MMY was in Houston, TX, when he recorded his most famous lecture. According to one course manager at the Majorrca TTC, the Maharishi used to stay in a separate hotel, and flew into town for just a few hours. One TTC participant stated that he spend six months in South Asia on a TTC and not once was visited by MMY! So, what would a TTC participant be doing hanging around MMY when they were supposed to be meditating and rounding? One informant wrote that most of the international staff were able to meet with MMY on a boat a few times, but it looks like only one guy ever got to ask MMY a question when Nadikishore or Jemimah Pittman wasn't around. Flagship Gottard, Seligsberg So, I don't buy into the fable that any TMers have been inside MMY's bedroom, alone with him, in the dead of night wearing ankle bells. LoL! From what I've read, the high point of being with MMY was to be able to sit down at the dinning table with him for a fruit cup. Only THEN, could anyone be considered a member of MMY's inner circle. MMY at Jones Hall: http://www.rwilliams.us/jones-hall/ http://www.rwilliams.us/jones-hall/ 'An Introduction to SCI' Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Live, Jones Hall, Houston, 1972 VHS Video, 60 min. Color. MIU Historic Film Series 'A Promise for the Family of Man' Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Audio Cassette, 60 min. SIMS Film and Tape Library A Promise for the Family of Man DVD: http://www.mumpress.com/videos/maharishi/n03.html http://www.mumpress.com/videos/maharishi/n03.html
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: snip Glenn Gould's recording company found ways to *edit out* his humming and moaning, so the Memorex set would not even be aware that he brought that kind of passion to his music. Actually, I have several commercial recordings of Gould in which his humming and moaning is very clearly audible. I've heard many others on the radio of which the same is true. Reviewers of his recordings constantly complain about the humming. Not relevant to the points Barry goes on to make, just one more instance of his getting the facts wrong. Now think spiritual teachers. There are some on this forum -- and there is no need to name them because you all know who they are -- who seem to feel that having only dealt with the Memorex version of Maharishi, they know the essence of What he taught, and similarly know things about him as an individual or about his state of consciousness. Barry is obviously including me in this, but he's got his facts wrong *again* where I'm concerned. I don't feel any of the above. snip You on this forum who met Maharishi, or who spent hours, days, weeks, months, and years sitting in rooms listening to him talk, or working side by side with him getting to see *how* he worked, try to imagine for a moment the level of AVERSION a supposedly strong TMer must have had to have meditated regularly for 20 to 30 years and yet *avoided* ever seeing him in public. No aversion, no avoidance on my part. In fact, I went to considerable lengths (as Barry knows, because I've mentioned it several times) to attend a week-long WPA in DC when it was said that he would be there. He didn't show, unfortunately, but I enjoyed the course anyway. When it comes to spiritual teachers, my contention is that there is a difference between real and Memorex. If nothing else, the Memorex version disallows any perception of the teacher's vibe, and what it was like to be around him. How can the Memorex set even *begin* to claim to be know- ledgeable enough about the subject of charisma or darshan if they have never experienced it? And yet they do. Some may. I don't. snip Now try to imagine the Memorex set, who never knew that this was being done. There they'd be, sitting in some TM center or on some residence course thinking that they were getting the real Maharishi, all while listening to the 20-minute expurgated version of one of his tapes. We were getting what the real Maharishi wanted us to get. Expurgated or otherwise, those tapes contained his public teaching. But the biggest issue is that the Memorex set *never met the man*. They never had a chance to sit through an unexpur- gated lecture, and watch his thought processes as he form- lated it, without the benefit of revisionist history editing later. More important, they never got to feel the vibe of the man, or see him in any of his...uh...lesser moments, like the ones in which he said We never speak ill of others, and then followed it up -- sometimes in the *same* talk -- with George W. Bush is a rakshasa or England is a Scorpion Nation. The Memorex set missed out on all of these moments that could potentially cause cognitive dissonance. My feeling is that this is exactly why they avoided ever seeing Maharishi live. The Memorex set is *terrified* of cognitive dissonance. They like their spiritual teach- ings edited, simplified down to a simplistic level for the lowest common denominator, and expurgated. Very, very expurgated. IMO they studiously avoided ever seeing MMY live because they preferred their FANTASIES of the man, and didn't want those fantasies messed with by such a nasty thing as reality. Utter, utter self-serving bullshit. Just for one thing, if we wanted to preserve our fantasies, why on earth would we be hanging out on FFL reading what his critics-- who did spend time with him--have to say about him? snip And yet they talk, talk, talk about the truth of What Maharishi taught, Ooops, Barry's got This is *what* MMY taught mixed up again with What MMY taught is *true*. Not the same at all. which they know solely from his tapes and his books (some of which were not even written by him). Truth? Yes, as in, It's true that he taught thus-and-so. This one's a big loser for you, Barry. Do yourself a favor and drop it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Teachers: Real, or Memorex?
turquoiseb: Once the first wave of this revisionist history passed, and the individual teachers and TM Centers realized they'd been had, they wised up. When we at the Regional Office would get the latest dictum from International saying that we had to get all teachers to give back their copies of tapes X, Y and Z... What tapes? VHS video wasn't even invented until 1971 by JVC in Japan. The first VCR to use VHS was the Victor HR-3300, which was introduced on September 9, 1976. The Compact Cassette tape wasn't in widespread use until 1968. Barry must be dreaming that there were any video 'tapes' at SIMS in 1965. Maybe he's thinking about the early films of MMY. Most of MMY's early voice recording are on reel tape transfered to vinyl at World Pacific in Hollywood.
