[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality v Creed

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

 ..members of Congress who identify as Christian – in the 115th Congress, 91% 
of members were Christian, 

 Christians are overrepresented, according to Pew, given that just 71 percent 
of all U.S. adults describe themselves as Christians.

 But by far the largest difference between the U.S. public and Congress is in 
the share who are unaffiliated with a religious group. In the general public, 
23% say they are atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular.” In Congress, 
just one person – Sen. Kyrsten Sinema, D-Ariz., who was recently elected to the 
Senate after three terms in the House – says she is religiously unaffiliated, 
making the share of “nones” in Congress 0.2%.

 Pew/CQ survey data:

 
http://www.pewforum.org/2019/01/03/faith-on-the-hill-116/?utm_source=AdaptiveMailer_medium=email_campaign=19-01-03%20Faith%20on%20the%20Hill=982=100=3623=840209=0=1=
 
http://www.pewforum.org/2019/01/03/faith-on-the-hill-116/?utm_source=AdaptiveMailer_medium=email_campaign=19-01-03%20Faith%20on%20the%20Hill=982=100=3623=840209=0=1=



 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 

 Wisdom v Creed..  

 The New Congress: One notable finding is that members of Congress are more 
likely to claim a religious affiliation than is the public at large.

 CQ Roll Call finds that more than 99 percent of the Republican members 
identify as Christian, as opposed to 78 percent of the Democrats. In both 
parties, Christians are overrepresented, according to Pew, given that just 71 
percent of all U.S. adults describe themselves as Christians.

 
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/681939629/the-new-congress-fewer-christians-but-still-religious
 
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/681939629/the-new-congress-fewer-christians-but-still-religious

 
 Wisdom v Creed..
 

 

 For instance,
 

 Xian Wisdom Spirituality.. 
 

 Xian (Chinese: 仙/仚/僊; pinyin: xiān; Wade–Giles: hsien) is a Chinese word for 
an enlightened person, translatable in English as: "spiritually immortal; 
transcendent; super-human; celestial being" (in Daoist philosophy and cosmology)
 

 

 v Evangelical Christian Orthodoxy

 

 Evangelical: ..belief that the essence of the Gospel consists of the doctrine 
of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ
 

 Radical Orthodox Evangelicalism
 ..an apocalyptical Christian vision of the future, a final battle between good 
and evil, and the second coming of Jesus Christ, when the faithful will ascend 
to heaven and the rest will go to hell.
 

 The Unified Field?  
 Where is Free Thought transcendentalism in this fight?
 


 the evangelical grip on the Trump administration.. 


 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/11/trump-administration-evangelical-influence-support
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/11/trump-administration-evangelical-influence-support
 


 In Expediency:
 

 The influence of evangelical Christianity is likely to become an important 
question as Trump finds himself dependent on them for political survival..
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality v Creed

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

 Wisdom v Creed..  

 The New Congress: One notable finding is that members of Congress are more 
likely to claim a religious affiliation than is the public at large.

 CQ Roll Call finds that more than 99 percent of the Republican members 
identify as Christian, as opposed to 78 percent of the Democrats. In both 
parties, Christians are overrepresented, according to Pew, given that just 71 
percent of all U.S. adults describe themselves as Christians.

 
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/681939629/the-new-congress-fewer-christians-but-still-religious
 
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/681939629/the-new-congress-fewer-christians-but-still-religious

 
 Wisdom v Creed..
 

 

 For instance,
 

 Xian Wisdom Spirituality.. 
 

 Xian (Chinese: 仙/仚/僊; pinyin: xiān; Wade–Giles: hsien) is a Chinese word for 
an enlightened person, translatable in English as: "spiritually immortal; 
transcendent; super-human; celestial being" (in Daoist philosophy and cosmology)
 

 

 v Evangelical Christian Orthodoxy

 

 Evangelical: ..belief that the essence of the Gospel consists of the doctrine 
of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ
 

 Radical Orthodox Evangelicalism
 ..an apocalyptical Christian vision of the future, a final battle between good 
and evil, and the second coming of Jesus Christ, when the faithful will ascend 
to heaven and the rest will go to hell.
 

 The Unified Field?  
 Where is Free Thought transcendentalism in this fight?
 


 the evangelical grip on the Trump administration.. 


 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/11/trump-administration-evangelical-influence-support
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/11/trump-administration-evangelical-influence-support
 


 In Expediency:
 

 The influence of evangelical Christianity is likely to become an important 
question as Trump finds himself dependent on them for political survival..
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality v Creed

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Wisdom v Creed..
 

 

 For instance,
 

 Xian Wisdom Spirituality.. 
 

 Xian (Chinese: 仙/仚/僊; pinyin: xiān; Wade–Giles: hsien) is a Chinese word for 
an enlightened person, translatable in English as: "spiritually immortal; 
transcendent; super-human; celestial being" (in Daoist philosophy and cosmology)
 

 

 v Evangelical Christian Orthodoxy

 

 Evangelical: ..belief that the essence of the Gospel consists of the doctrine 
of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ
 

 Radical Orthodox Evangelicalism
 ..an apocalyptical Christian vision of the future, a final battle between good 
and evil, and the second coming of Jesus Christ, when the faithful will ascend 
to heaven and the rest will go to hell.
 

 The Unified Field?  
 Where is Free Thought transcendentalism in this fight?
 


 the evangelical grip on the Trump administration.. 


 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/11/trump-administration-evangelical-influence-support
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/11/trump-administration-evangelical-influence-support
 


 In Expediency:
 

 The influence of evangelical Christianity is likely to become an important 
question as Trump finds himself dependent on them for political survival..
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Actually Maharishi was a Transcendentalist, spiritually by experience. I knew 
him. The religion was culturally something else.  Some Buddhist are 
transcendentalists by spirituality too.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 You have included a number of things here as examples of how you are defining 
"spiritual."
 

MMY was Hindu.  In Hinduism as in Christianity, the existence of a personal 
"soul" is assumed.  So, are you saying that all persons are spiritual because 
they have a "soul" and a "birthright" to discover it's natural attributes of 
peace and bliss?

 Of course, the Buddhists do not believe in the "soul."
 

 From Wikipedia:  

 

 Anatta is a central doctrine of Buddhism, and marks one of the major 
differences between Buddhism and Hinduism. Buddhists do not believe that at the 
core of all human beings and living creatures, there is any "eternal, essential 
and absolute something called a soul, self or atman".[5] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-6sourcesatman-5[6] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-johnplott3-6[119] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-129 Buddhism, from its earliest 
days, has denied the existence of the "self, soul" in its core philosophical 
and ontological texts. In its soteriological themes, Buddhism has defined 
nirvana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana as that blissful state when a 
person, amongst other things, realizes that he or she has "no self, no 
soul".[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-6sourcesatman-5[120] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-130

 

 Are Buddhists "spiritual"?  They do have a practice.  
 

 

 

 Perhaps, as indicated here, all those who acknowledge that they have a 
conscience and are following it are "spiritual."  
 

 When Thomas Jefferson wrote:"Laws of Nature" into the Declaration of 
independence, he was referring to an Enlightenment concept deeply rooted in 
Western philosophy. In later writings, Jefferson elaborated:
 Nature has written her moral laws on the head and heart of every rational and 
honest man, where man may read them for himself. If ever you are about to say 
anything amiss, or to do anything wrong, consider beforehand you will feel 
something within you which will tell you it is wrong, and ought not to be said 
or done. This is your conscience, and be sure and obey it... Conscience is the 
only sure clue which will eternally guide a man clear of all his doubts and 
inconsistencies.
 http://www.chivalrynow.net/articles2/natural_law.htm 
http://www.chivalrynow.net/articles2/natural_law.htm

 
---
 

 Are you saying, finally, that those that engage in a spiritual practice, such 
as prayer, are "spiritual," by virtue of their practice?  
 

 Exegesis keeps the Bible relevant.  :)  
 

 All told, it seems that "for spiritual people" boils down to:
 

 1) All those with a soul, which in your belief system means *all people*
 2) All people that consider their conscience in decision-making
 3) All people that engage in prayer and meditation
 

 In that 2 and 3 are subsets of one, it appears that "for spiritual people" 
means "for all people" based on your definitions posted here.  That's what I 
thought also!

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 emily.mae50 writes:
 

 The word "spiritual" always amuses me.  Re: "for spiritual people."  How do 
you define "spiritual?"

 

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said of Spirituality that:   'Spiritual 
development is the birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the 
essential nature of the soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual 
property of everybody. It is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the 
very existence, of every man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own 
possession. Everybody has the right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] 
ananda [bliss] nature of his own soul. In the most natural manner, everybody 
has every right to enjoy permanent peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of 
his own soul.'   -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn 
of the Age of Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 
1986), p. 195.

 

The Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God..   -Thomas Jefferson
 
 ..of the Unified Field the laws of Nature yet work in mysterious ways.
 -JaiGuruYou
 

 Spiritual Practices would be cultivating of Spirituality.
 

Scientifically, stopping to pray may not be as effective as taking a 
'quiet-time' or 'quiet-in' meditation, according to the Bible..

Matthew Ch:6 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when 
thou hast shut thy
door, pray to thy Father which is in secret(Silence); and thy Father (Unified 
Field of Nature) which

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[emily.ma...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

You have included a number of things here as examples of how you are defining 
"spiritual."
 

MMY was Hindu.  In Hinduism as in Christianity, the existence of a personal 
"soul" is assumed.  So, are you saying that all persons are spiritual because 
they have a "soul" and a "birthright" to discover it's natural attributes of 
peace and bliss?

 Of course, the Buddhists do not believe in the "soul."
 

 From Wikipedia:  

 

 Anatta is a central doctrine of Buddhism, and marks one of the major 
differences between Buddhism and Hinduism. Buddhists do not believe that at the 
core of all human beings and living creatures, there is any "eternal, essential 
and absolute something called a soul, self or atman".[5] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-6sourcesatman-5[6] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-johnplott3-6[119] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-129 Buddhism, from its earliest 
days, has denied the existence of the "self, soul" in its core philosophical 
and ontological texts. In its soteriological themes, Buddhism has defined 
nirvana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana as that blissful state when a 
person, amongst other things, realizes that he or she has "no self, no 
soul".[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-6sourcesatman-5[120] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#cite_note-130

 

 Are Buddhists "spiritual"?  They do have a practice.  
 

 

 

 Perhaps, as indicated here, all those who acknowledge that they have a 
conscience and are following it are "spiritual."  
 

 When Thomas Jefferson wrote:"Laws of Nature" into the Declaration of 
independence, he was referring to an Enlightenment concept deeply rooted in 
Western philosophy. In later writings, Jefferson elaborated:
 Nature has written her moral laws on the head and heart of every rational and 
honest man, where man may read them for himself. If ever you are about to say 
anything amiss, or to do anything wrong, consider beforehand you will feel 
something within you which will tell you it is wrong, and ought not to be said 
or done. This is your conscience, and be sure and obey it... Conscience is the 
only sure clue which will eternally guide a man clear of all his doubts and 
inconsistencies.
 http://www.chivalrynow.net/articles2/natural_law.htm 
http://www.chivalrynow.net/articles2/natural_law.htm

 
---
 

 Are you saying, finally, that those that engage in a spiritual practice, such 
as prayer, are "spiritual," by virtue of their practice?  
 

 Exegesis keeps the Bible relevant.  :)  
 

 All told, it seems that "for spiritual people" boils down to:
 

 1) All those with a soul, which in your belief system means *all people*
 2) All people that consider their conscience in decision-making
 3) All people that engage in prayer and meditation
 

 In that 2 and 3 are subsets of one, it appears that "for spiritual people" 
means "for all people" based on your definitions posted here.  That's what I 
thought also!

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 emily.mae50 writes:
 

 The word "spiritual" always amuses me.  Re: "for spiritual people."  How do 
you define "spiritual?"

 

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said of Spirituality that:   'Spiritual 
development is the birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the 
essential nature of the soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual 
property of everybody. It is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the 
very existence, of every man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own 
possession. Everybody has the right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] 
ananda [bliss] nature of his own soul. In the most natural manner, everybody 
has every right to enjoy permanent peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of 
his own soul.'   -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn 
of the Age of Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 
1986), p. 195.

 

The Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God..   -Thomas Jefferson
 
 ..of the Unified Field the laws of Nature yet work in mysterious ways.
 -JaiGuruYou
 

 Spiritual Practices would be cultivating of Spirituality.
 

Scientifically, stopping to pray may not be as effective as taking a 
'quiet-time' or 'quiet-in' meditation, according to the Bible..

Matthew Ch:6 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when 
thou hast shut thy
door, pray to thy Father which is in secret(Silence); and thy Father (Unified 
Field of Nature) which
seeth in secret (Silence) shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, (verbal prayers) as the heathen
do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

emily.mae50 writes:
 

 The word "spiritual" always amuses me.  Re: "for spiritual people."  How do 
you define "spiritual?"

 

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said of Spirituality that:   'Spiritual 
development is the birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the 
essential nature of the soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual 
property of everybody. It is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the 
very existence, of every man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own 
possession. Everybody has the right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] 
ananda [bliss] nature of his own soul. In the most natural manner, everybody 
has every right to enjoy permanent peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of 
his own soul.'   -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn 
of the Age of Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 
1986), p. 195.

 

The Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God..   -Thomas Jefferson
 
 ..of the Unified Field the laws of Nature yet work in mysterious ways.
 -JaiGuruYou
 

 Spiritual Practices would be cultivating of Spirituality.
 

Scientifically, stopping to pray may not be as effective as taking a 
'quiet-time' or 'quiet-in' meditation, according to the Bible..

Matthew Ch:6 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when 
thou hast shut thy
door, pray to thy Father which is in secret(Silence); and thy Father (Unified 
Field of Nature) which
seeth in secret (Silence) shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, (verbal prayers) as the heathen
do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye
have need of, before ye ask him. 
 

 
 
 FairfieldLife, 
 

 “Not the customary analysis of politics and economics but  a conversation 
about spiritual questions.   What did it mean for our spiritual lives?”   
 


 Om, as we have seen before on FFL, religiosity is not necessarily spirituality 
defined.  
  
 History has shown us with plenty of repetition that religious formalisms as 
religion are not necessarily spiritual. 

 Spirituality:

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development is the 
birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature of the 
soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of everybody. It 
is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very existence, of every 
man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. Everybody has the 
right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] nature of his own 
soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right to enjoy permanent 
peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'   
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.


 












  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

The Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God..   -Thomas Jefferson
 
 Yes, of the Unified Field the laws of Nature yet work in mysterious ways.
 -JaiGuruYou
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 "Dear God, may Trump fall flat on his ugly mug."

 

Scientifically, stopping to pray may not be as effective as taking a 
'quiet-time' or 'quiet-in' meditation, according to the Bible..

Matthew Ch:6 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when 
thou hast shut thy
door, pray to thy Father which is in secret(Silence); and thy Father (Unified 
Field of Nature) which
seeth in secret (Silence) shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, (verbal prayers) as the heathen
do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye
have need of, before ye ask him. 
 

 -JaiGuruYou
 

 Ah, but he did fall flat on his ugly mug. I think my supplication worked.

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 FairfieldLife, 
 

 “Not the customary analysis of politics and economics but  a conversation 
about spiritual questions.   What did it mean for our spiritual lives?”   

 Back_formore writes:

 Dear God, may Trump fall flat on his ugly mug. Is there a God? (See Doug, we 
are a spiritual group.) We will find out after the debate. LOL

 Om, as we have seen before on FFL, religiosity is not necessarily spirituality 
defined.  
 

 God is not necessarily a religious concept. However, it appears there is a God 
after all as evidenced by the results of the debate Monday night. Now, let's 
see if he sticks around to ensure the next debate sees Drumpf, once again, fall 
flat on his ugly mug. 

 History has shown us with plenty of repetition that religious formalisms as 
religion are not necessarily spiritual. 

 Spirituality:

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development is the 
birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature of the 
soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of everybody. It 
is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very existence, of every 
man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. Everybody has the 
right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] nature of his own 
soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right to enjoy permanent 
peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'   
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.


 












  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 "Dear God, may Trump fall flat on his ugly mug."

 

Scientifically, stopping to pray may not be as effective as taking a 
'quiet-time' or 'quiet-in' meditation, according to the Bible..

Matthew Ch:6 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when 
thou hast shut thy
door, pray to thy Father which is in secret(Silence); and thy Father (Unified 
Field of Nature) which
seeth in secret (Silence) shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, (verbal prayers) as the heathen
do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye
have need of, before ye ask him. 
 

 -JaiGuruYou
 

 Ah, but he did fall flat on his ugly mug. I think my supplication worked.

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 FairfieldLife, 
 

 “Not the customary analysis of politics and economics but  a conversation 
about spiritual questions.   What did it mean for our spiritual lives?”   

 Back_formore writes:

 Dear God, may Trump fall flat on his ugly mug. Is there a God? (See Doug, we 
are a spiritual group.) We will find out after the debate. LOL

 Om, as we have seen before on FFL, religiosity is not necessarily spirituality 
defined.  
 

 God is not necessarily a religious concept. However, it appears there is a God 
after all as evidenced by the results of the debate Monday night. Now, let's 
see if he sticks around to ensure the next debate sees Drumpf, once again, fall 
flat on his ugly mug. 

 History has shown us with plenty of repetition that religious formalisms as 
religion are not necessarily spiritual. 

 Spirituality:

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development is the 
birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature of the 
soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of everybody. It 
is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very existence, of every 
man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. Everybody has the 
right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] nature of his own 
soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right to enjoy permanent 
peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'   
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.


 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

"Dear God, may Trump fall flat on his ugly mug."

 

Scientifically, stopping to pray may not be as effective as taking a 
'quiet-time' or 'quiet-in' meditation, according to the Bible..

Matthew Ch:6 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when 
thou hast shut thy
door, pray to thy Father which is in secret(Silence); and thy Father (Unified 
Field of Nature) which
seeth in secret (Silence) shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, (verbal prayers) as the heathen
do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye
have need of, before ye ask him. 
 

 -JaiGuruYou

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 FairfieldLife, 
 

 “Not the customary analysis of politics and economics but  a conversation 
about spiritual questions.   What did it mean for our spiritual lives?”   

 Back_formore writes:

 Dear God, may Trump fall flat on his ugly mug. Is there a God? (See Doug, we 
are a spiritual group.) We will find out after the debate. LOL

 Om, as we have seen before on FFL, religiosity is not necessarily spirituality 
defined.  
 

 God is not necessarily a religious concept. However, it appears there is a God 
after all as evidenced by the results of the debate Monday night. Now, let's 
see if he sticks around to ensure the next debate sees Drumpf, once again, fall 
flat on his ugly mug. 

 History has shown us with plenty of repetition that religious formalisms as 
religion are not necessarily spiritual. 

 Spirituality:

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development is the 
birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature of the 
soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of everybody. It 
is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very existence, of every 
man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. Everybody has the 
right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] nature of his own 
soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right to enjoy permanent 
peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'   
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.


 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 FairfieldLife, 
 

 “Not the customary analysis of politics and economics but  a conversation 
about spiritual questions.   What did it mean for our spiritual lives?”   

 Back_formore writes:

 Dear God, may Trump fall flat on his ugly mug. Is there a God? (See Doug, we 
are a spiritual group.) We will find out after the debate. LOL

 Om, as we have seen before on FFL, religiosity is not necessarily spirituality 
defined.  
 

 God is not necessarily a religious concept. However, it appears there is a God 
after all as evidenced by the results of the debate Monday night. Now, let's 
see if he sticks around to ensure the next debate sees Drumpf, once again, fall 
flat on his ugly mug. 

 History has shown us with plenty of repetition that religious formalisms as 
religion are not necessarily spiritual. 

 Spirituality:

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development is the 
birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature of the 
soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of everybody. It 
is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very existence, of every 
man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. Everybody has the 
right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] nature of his own 
soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right to enjoy permanent 
peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'   
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.


 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

FairfieldLife, 
 

 “Not the customary analysis of politics and economics but  a conversation 
about spiritual questions.   What did it mean for our spiritual lives?”   

 Back_formore writes:

 Dear God, may Trump fall flat on his ugly mug. Is there a God? (See Doug, we 
are a spiritual group.) We will find out after the debate. LOL

 Om, as we have seen before on FFL, religiosity is not necessarily spirituality 
defined.   

 History has shown us with plenty of repetition that religious formalisms as 
religion are not necessarily spiritual. 

 Spirituality:

 In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development is the 
birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature of the 
soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of everybody. It 
is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very existence, of every 
man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. Everybody has the 
right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] nature of his own 
soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right to enjoy permanent 
peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'   
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Atma is Universal Self.   ‘There is no miracle. There is nothing from outside 
that comes to make the mind open to its own reality, which is the Atman, which 
is his Self, Unified Field of Natural Law—by nature, by nature, by nature. 
There is no miracle; it’s by nature. Transcendental Meditation is a natural 
procedure which takes the mind to this transcendental Self, and that’s all that 
transcendental experience is.’   -- Maharishi
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 The all-pervading Soul
 

 15. As oil in sesame seeds, as butter in cream,
 As water in River-beds, and as fire in the friction-sticks
 So is the Soul (Atman) apprehended in one's own soul,
 If one looks for Him with true austerity (tapas).
 

 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad

 First Adhyaya
 

 #
 The Thirteen Principal Upanishads 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up
 
 
 The Thirteen Principal Upanishads 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up 
Internet Archive BookReader - The Thirteen Principal Upanishads The BookReader 
requires JavaScript to be enabled.


 
 View on archive.org 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 #

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 16. The Soul (Atman) which pervades all things
 As butter is contained in cream,
 Which is rooted in self-knowledge and austerity-
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching (upanishad)
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching.
 

 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad
 First Adhyaya
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What does mysticism really mean? 
  It means the way to attain knowledge.
 It's close to philosophy,
 except in philosophy you go horizontally
 while in mysticism you go vertically.
 -Elie Wiesel   
 

 “If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light” 
(Matthew 6:22).

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 If you do not make an effort to know truth, to perceive it beneath the veils 
that hide it, you will not discover your own real nature and will therefore 
remain at the mercy of outside forces of “circumstances.” In Meditation behold 
the start of divine wisdom, that its rays disclose the truth ever within 
yourself. -Paramahansa Yogananda
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Cultivating Spirituality in Collective Meditation..
 

 Long before the TM movement ever came to Iowa there came a preceding movement 
of transcendentalism.

 This was a recognized and practiced group by its own long line in history, 
practiced in the cultivation of transcendent spirituality through group 
meditation.
 

 During the time of the Iowa 1830's and 1840's pioneer settlement there came 
old Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people who were then disciplined in 
cultivating spiritual experience by the practice of silent meditation in 
facilitated groups or collective meditation as the Quaker “Meeting for 
Worship”.  
 

 Some thousands of Quakers came to Iowa in the early settlement period. Across 
the Iowa landscape 'group meditation' arrived in the Quaker settlement of 
frontier Iowa then with the laying out and building of their Quaker Meeting 
Houses to facilitate their silent group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of a cultivated Quietism. 
 

  As a larger spiritual regeneration movement coming to Iowa in that settlement 
period this was in a time 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Atma is Universal Self.   ‘There is no miracle. There is nothing from outside 
that comes to make the mind open to its own reality, which is the Atman, which 
is his Self, Unified Field of Natural Law—by nature, by nature, by nature. 
There is no miracle; it’s by nature. Transcendental Meditation is a natural 
procedure which takes the mind to this transcendental Self, and that’s all that 
transcendental experience is.’   -- Maharishi
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 The all-pervading Soul
 

 15. As oil in sesame seeds, as butter in cream,
 As water in River-beds, and as fire in the friction-sticks
 So is the Soul (Atman) apprehended in one's own soul,
 If one looks for Him with true austerity (tapas).
 

 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad

 First Adhyaya
 

 #
 The Thirteen Principal Upanishads 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up
 
 
 The Thirteen Principal Upanishads 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up 
Internet Archive BookReader - The Thirteen Principal Upanishads The BookReader 
requires JavaScript to be enabled.


 
 View on archive.org 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 #

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 16. The Soul (Atman) which pervades all things
 As butter is contained in cream,
 Which is rooted in self-knowledge and austerity-
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching (upanishad)
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching.
 

 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad
 First Adhyaya
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What does mysticism really mean? 
  It means the way to attain knowledge.
 It's close to philosophy,
 except in philosophy you go horizontally
 while in mysticism you go vertically.
 -Elie Wiesel   
 

 “If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light” 
(Matthew 6:22).

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 If you do not make an effort to know truth, to perceive it beneath the veils 
that hide it, you will not discover your own real nature and will therefore 
remain at the mercy of outside forces of “circumstances.” In Meditation behold 
the start of divine wisdom, that its rays disclose the truth ever within 
yourself. -Paramahansa Yogananda
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Cultivating Spirituality in Collective Meditation..
 

 Long before the TM movement ever came to Iowa there came a preceding movement 
of transcendentalism.

 This was a recognized and practiced group by its own long line in history, 
practiced in the cultivation of transcendent spirituality through group 
meditation.
 

 During the time of the Iowa 1830's and 1840's pioneer settlement there came 
old Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people who were then disciplined in 
cultivating spiritual experience by the practice of silent meditation in 
facilitated groups or collective meditation as the Quaker “Meeting for 
Worship”.  
 

 Some thousands of Quakers came to Iowa in the early settlement period. Across 
the Iowa landscape 'group meditation' arrived in the Quaker settlement of 
frontier Iowa then with the laying out and building of their Quaker Meeting 
Houses to facilitate their silent group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of a cultivated Quietism. 
 

  As a larger spiritual regeneration movement coming to Iowa in that settlement 
period this was in a time just prior to when an older Society of Friends as a 
spiritual practice group was overtaken and overthrown by evangelical 'believer' 
ideology that came along in America during the 19th Century. That takedown in 
form is its own recurring story as 'the loss of spiritual Knowledge' in time. 
In sequence of time the spiritual Quakers subsequently tended to move further 
on to the West on to other places supporting their group cultivation of 
transcendent spirituality.  ..Birds of a feather flock together in diaspora. 
 

 However, there is a map of where the Quaker group meditations were planted in 
Iowa during the frontier period of time. This map does not represent the whole 
of Quaker Meeting Houses as the group who had overtaken the Society of Friends 
Iowa Yearly Meeting later in the 19th Century was not recognizing on their 
drawn map of the 1870's some of the older meetings in the State who had 
continued on separately with the original silent meditating practice of the old 
Quaker spiritual practice as heritage going way back. 
 

 The map is noteworthy because it indicates the extent of what was the old 
Society of Friends at an earlier time. Evidently what we see presently in 
present day Iowa as the group practice of Quietism as a cultivating 
transcendental meditation is not just a recent phenomena of spiritual practice 
in Iowa.
 

 Map: 
  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

# 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 The all-pervading Soul
 

 15. As oil in sesame seeds, as butter in cream,
 As water in River-beds, and as fire in the friction-sticks
 So is the Soul (Atman) apprehended in one's own soul,
 If one looks for Him with true austerity (tapas).
 

 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad

 First Adhyaya
 

 #
 The Thirteen Principal Upanishads 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up
 
 
 The Thirteen Principal Upanishads 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up 
Internet Archive BookReader - The Thirteen Principal Upanishads The BookReader 
requires JavaScript to be enabled.


 
 View on archive.org 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 #

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 16. The Soul (Atman) which pervades all things
 As butter is contained in cream,
 Which is rooted in self-knowledge and austerity-
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching (upanishad)
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching.
 

 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad
 First Adhyaya
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What does mysticism really mean? 
  It means the way to attain knowledge.
 It's close to philosophy,
 except in philosophy you go horizontally
 while in mysticism you go vertically.
 -Elie Wiesel   
 

 “If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light” 
(Matthew 6:22).

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 If you do not make an effort to know truth, to perceive it beneath the veils 
that hide it, you will not discover your own real nature and will therefore 
remain at the mercy of outside forces of “circumstances.” In Meditation behold 
the start of divine wisdom, that its rays disclose the truth ever within 
yourself. -Paramahansa Yogananda
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Cultivating Spirituality in Collective Meditation..
 

 Long before the TM movement ever came to Iowa there came a preceding movement 
of transcendentalism.

 This was a recognized and practiced group by its own long line in history, 
practiced in the cultivation of transcendent spirituality through group 
meditation.
 

 During the time of the Iowa 1830's and 1840's pioneer settlement there came 
old Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people who were then disciplined in 
cultivating spiritual experience by the practice of silent meditation in 
facilitated groups or collective meditation as the Quaker “Meeting for 
Worship”.  
 

 Some thousands of Quakers came to Iowa in the early settlement period. Across 
the Iowa landscape 'group meditation' arrived in the Quaker settlement of 
frontier Iowa then with the laying out and building of their Quaker Meeting 
Houses to facilitate their silent group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of a cultivated Quietism. 
 

  As a larger spiritual regeneration movement coming to Iowa in that settlement 
period this was in a time just prior to when an older Society of Friends as a 
spiritual practice group was overtaken and overthrown by evangelical 'believer' 
ideology that came along in America during the 19th Century. That takedown in 
form is its own recurring story as 'the loss of spiritual Knowledge' in time. 
In sequence of time the spiritual Quakers subsequently tended to move further 
on to the West on to other places supporting their group cultivation of 
transcendent spirituality.  ..Birds of a feather flock together in diaspora. 
 

 However, there is a map of where the Quaker group meditations were planted in 
Iowa during the frontier period of time. This map does not represent the whole 
of Quaker Meeting Houses as the group who had overtaken the Society of Friends 
Iowa Yearly Meeting later in the 19th Century was not recognizing on their 
drawn map of the 1870's some of the older meetings in the State who had 
continued on separately with the original silent meditating practice of the old 
Quaker spiritual practice as heritage going way back. 
 

 The map is noteworthy because it indicates the extent of what was the old 
Society of Friends at an earlier time. Evidently what we see presently in 
present day Iowa as the group practice of Quietism as a cultivating 
transcendental meditation is not just a recent phenomena of spiritual practice 
in Iowa.
 

 Map: 
  
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg
 

 The note about the map made on
 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Long before Swami Vivkananda, Yogananda and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came along 
to the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

The all-pervading Soul
 
 
 15. As oil in sesame seeds, as butter in cream,
 As water in River-beds, and as fire in the friction-sticks
 So is the Soul (Atman) apprehended in one's own soul,
 If one looks for Him with true austerity (tapas).
 
 
 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad

 First Adhyaya
 
 
 #
 The Thirteen Principal Upanishads 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up
 
 
 The Thirteen Principal Upanishads 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up 
Internet Archive BookReader - The Thirteen Principal Upanishads The BookReader 
requires JavaScript to be enabled. 
 
 
 
 View on archive.org 
https://archive.org/stream/thirteenprincipa028442mbp#page/n411/mode/2up 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
 

 #

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 16. The Soul (Atman) which pervades all things
 As butter is contained in cream,
 Which is rooted in self-knowledge and austerity-
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching (upanishad)
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching.
 

 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad
 First Adhyaya
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What does mysticism really mean? 
  It means the way to attain knowledge.
 It's close to philosophy,
 except in philosophy you go horizontally
 while in mysticism you go vertically.
 -Elie Wiesel   
 

 “If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light” 
(Matthew 6:22).

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 If you do not make an effort to know truth, to perceive it beneath the veils 
that hide it, you will not discover your own real nature and will therefore 
remain at the mercy of outside forces of “circumstances.” In Meditation behold 
the start of divine wisdom, that its rays disclose the truth ever within 
yourself. -Paramahansa Yogananda
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Cultivating Spirituality in Collective Meditation..
 

 Long before the TM movement ever came to Iowa there came a preceding movement 
of transcendentalism.

 This was a recognized and practiced group by its own long line in history, 
practiced in the cultivation of transcendent spirituality through group 
meditation.
 

 During the time of the Iowa 1830's and 1840's pioneer settlement there came 
old Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people who were then disciplined in 
cultivating spiritual experience by the practice of silent meditation in 
facilitated groups or collective meditation as the Quaker “Meeting for 
Worship”.  
 

 Some thousands of Quakers came to Iowa in the early settlement period. Across 
the Iowa landscape 'group meditation' arrived in the Quaker settlement of 
frontier Iowa then with the laying out and building of their Quaker Meeting 
Houses to facilitate their silent group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of a cultivated Quietism. 
 

  As a larger spiritual regeneration movement coming to Iowa in that settlement 
period this was in a time just prior to when an older Society of Friends as a 
spiritual practice group was overtaken and overthrown by evangelical 'believer' 
ideology that came along in America during the 19th Century. That takedown in 
form is its own recurring story as 'the loss of spiritual Knowledge' in time. 
In sequence of time the spiritual Quakers subsequently tended to move further 
on to the West on to other places supporting their group cultivation of 
transcendent spirituality.  ..Birds of a feather flock together in diaspora. 
 

 However, there is a map of where the Quaker group meditations were planted in 
Iowa during the frontier period of time. This map does not represent the whole 
of Quaker Meeting Houses as the group who had overtaken the Society of Friends 
Iowa Yearly Meeting later in the 19th Century was not recognizing on their 
drawn map of the 1870's some of the older meetings in the State who had 
continued on separately with the original silent meditating practice of the old 
Quaker spiritual practice as heritage going way back. 
 

 The map is noteworthy because it indicates the extent of what was the old 
Society of Friends at an earlier time. Evidently what we see presently in 
present day Iowa as the group practice of Quietism as a cultivating 
transcendental meditation is not just a recent phenomena of spiritual practice 
in Iowa.
 

 Map: 
  
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg
 

 The note about the map made on
 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Long before Swami Vivkananda, Yogananda and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came along 
to the West came others as teaching transcendentalists, preceding them in a 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

16. The Soul (Atman) which pervades all things
 As butter is contained in cream,
 Which is rooted in self-knowledge and austerity-
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching (upanishad)
 This is Brahma, the highest mystic teaching.
 
 
 -Svetasvatarea Upanishad
 First Adhyaya
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What does mysticism really mean? 
  It means the way to attain knowledge.
 It's close to philosophy,
 except in philosophy you go horizontally
 while in mysticism you go vertically.
 -Elie Wiesel   
 

 “If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light” 
(Matthew 6:22).

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 If you do not make an effort to know truth, to perceive it beneath the veils 
that hide it, you will not discover your own real nature and will therefore 
remain at the mercy of outside forces of “circumstances.” In Meditation behold 
the start of divine wisdom, that its rays disclose the truth ever within 
yourself. -Paramahansa Yogananda
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Cultivating Spirituality in Collective Meditation..
 

 Long before the TM movement ever came to Iowa there came a preceding movement 
of transcendentalism.

 This was a recognized and practiced group by its own long line in history, 
practiced in the cultivation of transcendent spirituality through group 
meditation.
 

 During the time of the Iowa 1830's and 1840's pioneer settlement there came 
old Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people who were then disciplined in 
cultivating spiritual experience by the practice of silent meditation in 
facilitated groups or collective meditation as the Quaker “Meeting for 
Worship”.  
 

 Some thousands of Quakers came to Iowa in the early settlement period. Across 
the Iowa landscape 'group meditation' arrived in the Quaker settlement of 
frontier Iowa then with the laying out and building of their Quaker Meeting 
Houses to facilitate their silent group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of a cultivated Quietism. 
 

  As a larger spiritual regeneration movement coming to Iowa in that settlement 
period this was in a time just prior to when an older Society of Friends as a 
spiritual practice group was overtaken and overthrown by evangelical 'believer' 
ideology that came along in America during the 19th Century. That takedown in 
form is its own recurring story as 'the loss of spiritual Knowledge' in time. 
In sequence of time the spiritual Quakers subsequently tended to move further 
on to the West on to other places supporting their group cultivation of 
transcendent spirituality.  ..Birds of a feather flock together in diaspora. 
 

 However, there is a map of where the Quaker group meditations were planted in 
Iowa during the frontier period of time. This map does not represent the whole 
of Quaker Meeting Houses as the group who had overtaken the Society of Friends 
Iowa Yearly Meeting later in the 19th Century was not recognizing on their 
drawn map of the 1870's some of the older meetings in the State who had 
continued on separately with the original silent meditating practice of the old 
Quaker spiritual practice as heritage going way back. 
 

 The map is noteworthy because it indicates the extent of what was the old 
Society of Friends at an earlier time. Evidently what we see presently in 
present day Iowa as the group practice of Quietism as a cultivating 
transcendental meditation is not just a recent phenomena of spiritual practice 
in Iowa.
 

 Map: 
  
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg
 

 The note about the map made on
 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Long before Swami Vivkananda, Yogananda and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came along 
to the West came others as teaching transcendentalists, preceding them in a 
sequence. In Europe there was a long lineage of the equivalent in European 
transcendentalist spiritual satsanga and ashram-like spiritual practice 
communities coming out of what was then called Quietism in spiritual practice.
 

 An earlier post on FairfieldLife copied in the European lineage. In the 
historical stories a lot of those groups came in settlement to America fleeing 
persecution of the formal beliefs of religious ideologies. Transcendentalism as 
a spiritual teaching and practice is a common story in the settlement of 
America. It could seem that transcendentalism as it has come along is very 
American. See FFL post# 385441
 

 385441RE: In Quiet, European ancestral genealogy of transcendentalism 

 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

What does mysticism really mean? 
  It means the way to attain knowledge. 
 It's close to philosophy, 
 except in philosophy you go horizontally 
 while in mysticism you go vertically.
 -Elie Wiesel   
 

 “If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light” 
(Matthew 6:22).

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 If you do not make an effort to know truth, to perceive it beneath the veils 
that hide it, you will not discover your own real nature and will therefore 
remain at the mercy of outside forces of “circumstances.” In Meditation behold 
the start of divine wisdom, that its rays disclose the truth ever within 
yourself. -Paramahansa Yogananda
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Cultivating Spirituality in Collective Meditation..
 

 Long before the TM movement ever came to Iowa there came a preceding movement 
of transcendentalism.

 This was a recognized and practiced group by its own long line in history, 
practiced in the cultivation of transcendent spirituality through group 
meditation.
 

 During the time of the Iowa 1830's and 1840's pioneer settlement there came 
old Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people who were then disciplined in 
cultivating spiritual experience by the practice of silent meditation in 
facilitated groups or collective meditation as the Quaker “Meeting for 
Worship”.  
 

 Some thousands of Quakers came to Iowa in the early settlement period. Across 
the Iowa landscape 'group meditation' arrived in the Quaker settlement of 
frontier Iowa then with the laying out and building of their Quaker Meeting 
Houses to facilitate their silent group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of a cultivated Quietism. 
 

  As a larger spiritual regeneration movement coming to Iowa in that settlement 
period this was in a time just prior to when an older Society of Friends as a 
spiritual practice group was overtaken and overthrown by evangelical 'believer' 
ideology that came along in America during the 19th Century. That takedown in 
form is its own recurring story as 'the loss of spiritual Knowledge' in time. 
In sequence of time the spiritual Quakers subsequently tended to move further 
on to the West on to other places supporting their group cultivation of 
transcendent spirituality.  ..Birds of a feather flock together in diaspora. 
 

 However, there is a map of where the Quaker group meditations were planted in 
Iowa during the frontier period of time. This map does not represent the whole 
of Quaker Meeting Houses as the group who had overtaken the Society of Friends 
Iowa Yearly Meeting later in the 19th Century was not recognizing on their 
drawn map of the 1870's some of the older meetings in the State who had 
continued on separately with the original silent meditating practice of the old 
Quaker spiritual practice as heritage going way back. 
 

 The map is noteworthy because it indicates the extent of what was the old 
Society of Friends at an earlier time. Evidently what we see presently in 
present day Iowa as the group practice of Quietism as a cultivating 
transcendental meditation is not just a recent phenomena of spiritual practice 
in Iowa.
 

 Map: 
  
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg
 

 The note about the map made on
 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Long before Swami Vivkananda, Yogananda and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came along 
to the West came others as teaching transcendentalists, preceding them in a 
sequence. In Europe there was a long lineage of the equivalent in European 
transcendentalist spiritual satsanga and ashram-like spiritual practice 
communities coming out of what was then called Quietism in spiritual practice.
 

 An earlier post on FairfieldLife copied in the European lineage. In the 
historical stories a lot of those groups came in settlement to America fleeing 
persecution of the formal beliefs of religious ideologies. Transcendentalism as 
a spiritual teaching and practice is a common story in the settlement of 
America. It could seem that transcendentalism as it has come along is very 
American. See FFL post# 385441
 

 385441RE: In Quiet, European ancestral genealogy of transcendentalism 

 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On December 31, 1957, celebrating the Conference of Spiritual Luminaries of 
India, Maharishi inaugurated the Spiritual Regeneration Movement in Madras, 
India, to spiritually regenerate the world.
 

---In 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

If you do not make an effort to know truth, to perceive it beneath the veils 
that hide it, you will not discover your own real nature and will therefore 
remain at the mercy of outside forces of “circumstances.” In Meditation behold 
the start of divine wisdom, that its rays disclose the truth ever within 
yourself. -Paramahansa Yogananda
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Cultivating Spirituality in Collective Meditation..
 

 “If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light” 
(Matthew 6:22).

 

 Long before the TM movement ever came to Iowa there came a preceding movement 
of transcendentalism.
 This was a recognized and practiced group by its own long line in history, 
practiced in the cultivation of transcendent spirituality by group meditation.
 

 During the time of the Iowa 1830's and 1840's pioneer settlement there came 
old Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people who were then disciplined in 
cultivating spiritual experience by the practice of silent meditation in 
facilitated groups or collective meditation as the Quaker “Meeting for 
Worship”.  
 

 Some thousands of Quakers came to Iowa in the early settlement period. Across 
the Iowa landscape 'group meditation' arrived in the Quaker settlement of 
frontier Iowa then with the laying out and building of their Quaker Meeting 
Houses to facilitate their silent group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of a cultivated Quietism. 
 

  As a larger spiritual regeneration movement coming to Iowa in that settlement 
period this was in a time just prior to when an older Society of Friends as a 
spiritual practice group was overtaken and overthrown by evangelical 'believer' 
ideology that came along in America during the 19th Century. That takedown in 
form is its own recurring story as 'the loss of spiritual Knowledge' in time. 
In sequence of time the spiritual Quakers subsequently tended to move further 
on to the West on to other places supporting their group cultivation of 
transcendent spirituality.  ..Birds of a feather flock together in diaspora. 
 

 However, there is a map of the Quaker group meditations planted in Iowa during 
the frontier period of time. This map does not represent the whole of Quaker 
Meeting Houses as the group who had overtaken the Society of Friends Iowa 
Yearly Meeting later in the 19th Century was not recognizing on their drawn map 
some of the old meetings in the State who had continued on separately with the 
original silent meditating practice of the old Quaker spiritual practice as 
heritage going way back. 
 

 The map is noteworthy because it indicates the extent of what was the old 
Society of Friends at an earlier time. Evidently what we see presently in 
present day Iowa as the group practice of Quietism in a cultivating 
transcendental meditation is not a recent phenomena of spiritual practice in 
Iowa.
 

 Map: 
  
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg
 

 The note about the map made on
 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Long before Swami Vivkananda, Yogananda and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came along 
to the West came others as teaching transcendentalists, preceding them in a 
sequence. In Europe there was a long lineage of the equivalent in European 
transcendentalist spiritual satsanga and ashram-like spiritual practice 
communities coming out of what was then called Quietism in spiritual practice.
 

 An earlier post on FairfieldLife copied in the European lineage. In the 
historical stories a lot of those groups came in settlement to America fleeing 
persecution of the formal beliefs of religious ideologies. Transcendentalism as 
a spiritual teaching and practice is a common story in the settlement of 
America. It could seem that transcendentalism as it has come along is very 
American. See FFL post# 385441
 

 385441RE: In Quiet, European ancestral genealogy of transcendentalism 

 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On December 31, 1957, celebrating the Conference of Spiritual Luminaries of 
India, Maharishi inaugurated the Spiritual Regeneration Movement in Madras, 
India, to spiritually regenerate the world.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Yep, in a line of transcendentalists Elias Hicks carried the banner in satsang 
a generation before Emerson.   In their day actually they were widely heard and 
followed penetrating the contemporary thought.  Considering the size and 
population of America then they 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Cultivating Spirituality in Collective Meditation..
 

 Long before the TM movement ever came to Iowa there came a preceding movement 
of transcendentalism.
 This was a recognized and practiced group by its own long line in history, 
practiced in the cultivation of transcendent spirituality by group meditation.
 
 
 During the time of the Iowa 1830's and 1840's pioneer settlement there came 
old Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people who were then disciplined in 
cultivating spiritual experience by the practice of silent meditation in 
facilitated groups or collective meditation as the Quaker “Meeting for 
Worship”.  
 
 
 Some thousands of Quakers came to Iowa in the early settlement period. Across 
the Iowa landscape 'group meditation' arrived in the Quaker settlement of 
frontier Iowa then with the laying out and building of their Quaker Meeting 
Houses to facilitate their silent group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of a cultivated Quietism. 
 
 
  As a larger spiritual regeneration movement coming to Iowa in that settlement 
period this was in a time just prior to when an older Society of Friends as a 
spiritual practice group was overtaken and overthrown by evangelical 'believer' 
ideology that came along in America during the 19th Century. That takedown in 
form is its own recurring story as 'the loss of spiritual Knowledge' in time. 
In sequence of time the spiritual Quakers subsequently tended to move further 
on to the West on to other places supporting their group cultivation of 
transcendent spirituality.  ..Birds of a feather flock together in diaspora. 
 
 
 However, there is a map of the Quaker group meditations planted in Iowa during 
the frontier period of time. This map does not represent the whole of Quaker 
Meeting Houses as the group who had overtaken the Society of Friends Iowa 
Yearly Meeting later in the 19th Century was not recognizing on their drawn map 
some of the old meetings in the State who had continued on separately with the 
original silent meditating practice of the old Quaker spiritual practice as 
heritage going way back. 
 
 
 The map is noteworthy because it indicates the extent of what was the old 
Society of Friends at an earlier time. Evidently what we see presently in 
present day Iowa as the group practice of Quietism in a cultivating 
transcendental meditation is not a recent phenomena of spiritual practice in 
Iowa.
 
 
 Map: 
  
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg
 
 
 The note about the map made on
 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves.html
 

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Long before Swami Vivkananda, Yogananda and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came along 
to the West came others as teaching transcendentalists, preceding them in a 
sequence. In Europe there was a long lineage of the equivalent in European 
transcendentalist spiritual satsanga and ashram-like spiritual practice 
communities coming out of what was then called Quietism in spiritual practice.
 

 An earlier post on FairfieldLife copied in the European lineage. In the 
historical stories a lot of those groups came in settlement to America fleeing 
persecution of the formal beliefs of religious ideologies. Transcendentalism as 
a spiritual teaching and practice is a common story in the settlement of 
America. It could seem that transcendentalism as it has come along is very 
American. See FFL post# 385441
 

 385441RE: In Quiet, European ancestral genealogy of transcendentalism 

 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On December 31, 1957, celebrating the Conference of Spiritual Luminaries of 
India, Maharishi inaugurated the Spiritual Regeneration Movement in Madras, 
India, to spiritually regenerate the world.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Yep, in a line of transcendentalists Elias Hicks carried the banner in satsang 
a generation before Emerson.   In their day actually they were widely heard and 
followed penetrating the contemporary thought.  Considering the size and 
population of America then they were in about as far as Maharishi penetrated 
culture with transcendentalism in the 20th Century.   Elias Hicks and Emerson 
along with Henry Thoreau and others traveled widely as speakers,  they wrote 
extensively, they published and were widely read at the time. At the time 
America was quite literate and people followed the religious convolutions of 
those times.

 

 Transcendentalism as a spirituality seems to provide critique to the 
ideologies of materialism and formality of religions 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Long before Swami Vivkananda, Yogananda and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came along to 
the West came others as teaching transcendentalists, preceding them in a 
sequence. In Europe there was a long lineage of the equivalent in European 
transcendentalist spiritual satsanga and ashram-like spiritual practice 
communities coming out of what was then called Quietism in spiritual practice. 
 
 
 An earlier post on FairfieldLife copied in the European lineage. In the 
historical stories a lot of those groups came in settlement to America fleeing 
persecution of the formal beliefs of religious ideologies. Transcendentalism as 
a spiritual teaching and practice is a common story in the settlement of 
America. It could seem that transcendentalism as it has come along is very 
American. See FFL post# 385441 
 

 385441RE: In Quiet, European ancestral genealogy of transcendentalism 
 
 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/385441
 
 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On December 31, 1957, celebrating the Conference of Spiritual Luminaries of 
India, Maharishi inaugurated the Spiritual Regeneration Movement in Madras, 
India, to spiritually regenerate the world.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Yep, in a line of transcendentalists Elias Hicks carried the banner in satsang 
a generation before Emerson.   In their day actually they were widely heard and 
followed penetrating the contemporary thought.  Considering the size and 
population of America then they were in about as far as Maharishi penetrated 
culture with transcendentalism in the 20th Century.   Elias Hicks and Emerson 
along with Henry Thoreau and others traveled widely as speakers,  they wrote 
extensively, they published and were widely read at the time. At the time 
America was quite literate and people followed the religious convolutions of 
those times.

 

 Transcendentalism as a spirituality seems to provide critique to the 
ideologies of materialism and formality of religions generation by generation, 
by experience. 
 

 In the transcendentalist line running through time here is an interesting 
inter-generational monograph by Walt Whitman about Elias Hicks..  



 Anecdotes about Elias Hicks - Wikisource, the free online library 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks 
 
 Anecdotes about Elias Hicks - Wikisource, the free online library 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks AS MYSELF A LITTLE 
BOY hearing so much of Elias Hicks, at that time—and more than once personally 
seeing the old man—and my dear, dear father and mother faithful listeners to 
him at the meetings—


 
 View on en.wikisource.org 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

  
  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Thanks - I like this broader context of the transcendental wave running 
through time and consciousness, with some of us picking it up (again and again) 
as it comes by. Perhaps the efficiency of the TM technique (diving deeply, 
precisely, and quickly, 2 x 20) speaks to this age, where we don't have a lot 
of time to learn about transcending. Nature's balance for fast-paced modern 
life, and with any luck, some progress in the meantime.  
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Well, in a line Maharishi's transcendentalism message a hundred years before 
was carried forward as American Transcendentalism by Emerson and the American 
transcendentalist satsanga at the time. Same message of populist 
transcendentalism was carried then as seems always has been carried in somewhat 
of a line through time. 
  Transcendentalism evidently has long lineage. Evidently Transcending as 
experience and then transcendentalism as satsanga are a story-line to read that 
runs through out time. For instance, Quaker Meeting here in Fairfield starts in 
a little while. George Fox, founder of the historic Society of Friends 
satsanga, he like Maharishi was another mystic in the line of 
transcendentalism.  And, you and we are in that line too, transcendentalists in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 I wonder if little Mahesh ever got the inkling as he was sitting in school, 
for example, that he would one day grow up to become a famous spiritual 
teacher? The times have definitely favored his message, and so many of us have 
been influenced by this one man. It could have been anybody (though probably 
Indian) that popularized  TM, and yet it just happened to be Maharishi. Even a 
hundred years ago, his mission would have been impossible. 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 From the MVS Thesaurus: 

 Spirituality
 Description In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

On December 31, 1957, celebrating the Conference of Spiritual Luminaries of 
India, Maharishi inaugurated the Spiritual Regeneration Movement in Madras, 
India, to spiritually regenerate the world.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Yep, in a line of transcendentalists Elias Hicks carried the banner in satsang 
a generation before Emerson.   In their day actually they were widely heard and 
followed penetrating the contemporary thought.  Considering the size and 
population of America then they were in about as far as Maharishi penetrated 
culture with transcendentalism in the 20th Century.   Elias Hicks and Emerson 
along with Henry Thoreau and others traveled widely as speakers,  they wrote 
extensively, they published and were widely read at the time. At the time 
America was quite literate and people followed the religious convolutions of 
those times.

 

 Transcendentalism as a spirituality seems to provide critique to the 
ideologies of materialism and formality of religions generation by generation, 
by experience. 
 

 In the transcendentalist line running through time here is an interesting 
inter-generational monograph by Walt Whitman about Elias Hicks..  



 Anecdotes about Elias Hicks - Wikisource, the free online library 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks 
 
 Anecdotes about Elias Hicks - Wikisource, the free online library 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks AS MYSELF A LITTLE 
BOY hearing so much of Elias Hicks, at that time—and more than once personally 
seeing the old man—and my dear, dear father and mother faithful listeners to 
him at the meetings—


 
 View on en.wikisource.org 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

  
  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Thanks - I like this broader context of the transcendental wave running 
through time and consciousness, with some of us picking it up (again and again) 
as it comes by. Perhaps the efficiency of the TM technique (diving deeply, 
precisely, and quickly, 2 x 20) speaks to this age, where we don't have a lot 
of time to learn about transcending. Nature's balance for fast-paced modern 
life, and with any luck, some progress in the meantime.  
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Well, in a line Maharishi's transcendentalism message a hundred years before 
was carried forward as American Transcendentalism by Emerson and the American 
transcendentalist satsanga at the time. Same message of populist 
transcendentalism was carried then as seems always has been carried in somewhat 
of a line through time. 
  Transcendentalism evidently has long lineage. Evidently Transcending as 
experience and then transcendentalism as satsanga are a story-line to read that 
runs through out time. For instance, Quaker Meeting here in Fairfield starts in 
a little while. George Fox, founder of the historic Society of Friends 
satsanga, he like Maharishi was another mystic in the line of 
transcendentalism.  And, you and we are in that line too, transcendentalists in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 I wonder if little Mahesh ever got the inkling as he was sitting in school, 
for example, that he would one day grow up to become a famous spiritual 
teacher? The times have definitely favored his message, and so many of us have 
been influenced by this one man. It could have been anybody (though probably 
Indian) that popularized  TM, and yet it just happened to be Maharishi. Even a 
hundred years ago, his mission would have been impossible. 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 From the MVS Thesaurus: 

 Spirituality
 Description In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development 
is the birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature 
of the soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of 
everybody. It is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very 
existence, of every man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. 
Everybody has the right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] 
nature of his own soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right 
to enjoy permanent peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'  
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.   
Some people feel that the outer or material joys of life are opposed to, or 
diminish, the spiritual value, and that one has to give up, or become detached, 
from material values in order to achieve inner fulfillment.   Below is a short 
video of Maharishi reflecting on the topic of spirituality. Here Maharishi 
points out that inner spirituality does not conflict with the outer material 
value of life: See 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Long before the TM movement came along to Iowa, like a manifesting destiny 
transcendentalism as a movement in its own long line was recognized and 
practiced as a cultivation of spirituality by group meditation.
 

 At the time of Iowa pioneer settlement of the 1830's and 1840's the old 
Quakers as a peculiar spiritual people were then disciplined about cultivating 
spirituality by meditation by facilitating group meditation as the Quaker 
“Meeting for Worship”.  Hence in their settlement the building of their Quaker 
Meeting Houses to facilitate the group meditation that was the common Quaker 
silent practice of cultivated Quietism then. 
 

  As a spiritual regeneration movement in that settlement period in Iowa it was 
in a time before that old Society of Friends at a point was subsequently 
overtaken and overthrown by evangelical 'believer' ideology. That is its own 
story in 'the loss of spiritual Knowledge'. In time the spiritual Quakers then 
subsequentlytended to move on to the West and to other places supporting group 
cultivation of transcendent spirituality.  [Birds of a feather flock together.]
 

 However, here is a map of Quaker group meditations planted in Iowa during a 
period of time. This map does not represent the whole of Quaker Meeting Houses 
as the group who had overtaken the Society of Friends was not recognizing on 
their map old meetings in the State who continued on separately with the 
original silent meditating practice of the old Quaker spiritual practice in 
heritage going way back. The map is noteworthy because it indicates the extent 
of the old Society of Friends at a time. Evidently the group practice of 
Quietism as a cultivating transcendental meditation is not a recent phenomena 
in spiritual practice. 
 
 
 
 Map:  
 

 

 

 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg

 
 
 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
 
 http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/frien... 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
 
 
 View on www.icelandichorse.info 
http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/friendsmeetingsiowa1870.jpg 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
 

   
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Yep, in a line of transcendentalists Elias Hicks carried the banner in satsang 
a generation before Emerson.   In their day actually they were widely heard and 
followed penetrating the contemporary thought.  Considering the size and 
population of America then they were in about as far as Maharishi penetrated 
culture with transcendentalism in the 20th Century.   Elias Hicks and Emerson 
along with Henry Thoreau and others traveled widely as speakers,  they wrote 
extensively, they published and were widely read at the time. At the time 
America was quite literate and people followed the religious convolutions of 
those times.

 

 Transcendentalism as a spirituality seems to provide critique to the 
ideologies of materialism and formality of religions generation by generation, 
by experience. 
 

 In the transcendentalist line running through time here is an interesting 
inter-generational monograph by Walt Whitman about Elias Hicks..  



 Anecdotes about Elias Hicks - Wikisource, the free online library 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks 
 
 Anecdotes about Elias Hicks - Wikisource, the free online library 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks AS MYSELF A LITTLE 
BOY hearing so much of Elias Hicks, at that time—and more than once personally 
seeing the old man—and my dear, dear father and mother faithful listeners to 
him at the meetings—


 
 View on en.wikisource.org 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

  
  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Thanks - I like this broader context of the transcendental wave running 
through time and consciousness, with some of us picking it up (again and again) 
as it comes by. Perhaps the efficiency of the TM technique (diving deeply, 
precisely, and quickly, 2 x 20) speaks to this age, where we don't have a lot 
of time to learn about transcending. Nature's balance for fast-paced modern 
life, and with any luck, some progress in the meantime.  
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Well, in a line Maharishi's transcendentalism message a hundred years before 
was carried forward as American Transcendentalism by Emerson and the American 
transcendentalist satsanga at the time. Same message of populist 
transcendentalism was carried then as seems always has been carried in somewhat 
of a line through time. 
  Transcendentalism evidently has long lineage. Evidently Transcending as 
experience and then transcendentalism as satsanga are a 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Yep, in a line of transcendentalists Elias Hicks carried the banner in satsang 
a generation before Emerson.   In their day actually they were widely heard and 
followed penetrating the contemporary thought.  Considering the size and 
population of America then they were in about as far as Maharishi penetrated 
culture with transcendentalism in the 20th Century.   Elias Hicks and Emerson 
along with Henry Thoreau and others traveled widely as speakers,  they wrote 
extensively, they published and were widely read at the time. At the time 
America was quite literate and people followed the religious convolutions of 
those times.

 

 Transcendentalism as a spirituality seems to provide critique to the 
ideologies of materialism and formality of religions generation by generation, 
by experience. 
 

 In the transcendentalist line running through time here is an interesting 
inter-generational monograph by Walt Whitman about Elias Hicks..  



 Anecdotes about Elias Hicks - Wikisource, the free online library 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks 
 
 Anecdotes about Elias Hicks - Wikisource, the free online library 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks AS MYSELF A LITTLE 
BOY hearing so much of Elias Hicks, at that time—and more than once personally 
seeing the old man—and my dear, dear father and mother faithful listeners to 
him at the meetings— 
 
 
 
 View on en.wikisource.org 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anecdotes_about_Elias_Hicks 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
  
  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Thanks - I like this broader context of the transcendental wave running 
through time and consciousness, with some of us picking it up (again and again) 
as it comes by. Perhaps the efficiency of the TM technique (diving deeply, 
precisely, and quickly, 2 x 20) speaks to this age, where we don't have a lot 
of time to learn about transcending. Nature's balance for fast-paced modern 
life, and with any luck, some progress in the meantime.  
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Well, in a line Maharishi's transcendentalism message a hundred years before 
was carried forward as American Transcendentalism by Emerson and the American 
transcendentalist satsanga at the time. Same message of populist 
transcendentalism was carried then as seems always has been carried in somewhat 
of a line through time. 
  Transcendentalism evidently has long lineage. Evidently Transcending as 
experience and then transcendentalism as satsanga are a story-line to read that 
runs through out time. For instance, Quaker Meeting here in Fairfield starts in 
a little while. George Fox, founder of the historic Society of Friends 
satsanga, he like Maharishi was another mystic in the line of 
transcendentalism.  And, you and we are in that line too, transcendentalists in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 I wonder if little Mahesh ever got the inkling as he was sitting in school, 
for example, that he would one day grow up to become a famous spiritual 
teacher? The times have definitely favored his message, and so many of us have 
been influenced by this one man. It could have been anybody (though probably 
Indian) that popularized  TM, and yet it just happened to be Maharishi. Even a 
hundred years ago, his mission would have been impossible. 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 From the MVS Thesaurus: 

 Spirituality
 Description In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development 
is the birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature 
of the soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of 
everybody. It is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very 
existence, of every man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. 
Everybody has the right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] 
nature of his own soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right 
to enjoy permanent peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'  
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.   
Some people feel that the outer or material joys of life are opposed to, or 
diminish, the spiritual value, and that one has to give up, or become detached, 
from material values in order to achieve inner fulfillment.   Below is a short 
video of Maharishi reflecting on the topic of spirituality. Here Maharishi 
points out that inner spirituality does not conflict with the outer material 
value of life: See video 
onhttp://www.enlightenmentforeveryone.com/spirituality/. 
http://www.enlightenmentforeveryone.com/spirituality/   Maharishi always said 
we should enjoy 200% of life—100% of the inner spiritual value along with 100% 
of the outer material value. He offered 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Well, in a line Maharishi's transcendentalism message a hundred years before 
was carried forward as American Transcendentalism by Emerson and the American 
transcendentalist satsanga at the time. Same message of populist 
transcendentalism was carried then as seems always has been carried in somewhat 
of a line through time. 
  Transcendentalism evidently has long lineage. Evidently Transcending as 
experience and then transcendentalism as satsanga are a story-line to read that 
runs through out time. For instance, Quaker Meeting here in Fairfield starts in 
a little while. George Fox, founder of the historic Society of Friends 
satsanga, he like Maharishi was another mystic in the line of 
transcendentalism.  And, you and we are in that line too, transcendentalists in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 I wonder if little Mahesh ever got the inkling as he was sitting in school, 
for example, that he would one day grow up to become a famous spiritual 
teacher? The times have definitely favored his message, and so many of us have 
been influenced by this one man. It could have been anybody (though probably 
Indian) that popularized  TM, and yet it just happened to be Maharishi. Even a 
hundred years ago, his mission would have been impossible. 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 From the MVS Thesaurus: 

 Spirituality
 Description In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development 
is the birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature 
of the soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of 
everybody. It is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very 
existence, of every man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. 
Everybody has the right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] 
nature of his own soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right 
to enjoy permanent peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'  
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.   
Some people feel that the outer or material joys of life are opposed to, or 
diminish, the spiritual value, and that one has to give up, or become detached, 
from material values in order to achieve inner fulfillment.   Below is a short 
video of Maharishi reflecting on the topic of spirituality. Here Maharishi 
points out that inner spirituality does not conflict with the outer material 
value of life: See video 
onhttp://www.enlightenmentforeveryone.com/spirituality/. 
http://www.enlightenmentforeveryone.com/spirituality/   Maharishi always said 
we should enjoy 200% of life—100% of the inner spiritual value along with 100% 
of the outer material value. He offered Transcendental Meditation as a simple 
way to integrate abstract absolute being with the concrete details of the 
relative.
 
  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[olliesed...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

I wonder if little Mahesh ever got the inkling as he was sitting in school, for 
example, that he would one day grow up to become a famous spiritual teacher? 
The times have definitely favored his message, and so many of us have been 
influenced by this one man. It could have been anybody (though probably Indian) 
that popularized  TM, and yet it just happened to be Maharishi. Even a hundred 
years ago, his mission would have been impossible. 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 From the MVS Thesaurus: 

 Spirituality
 Description In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development 
is the birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature 
of the soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of 
everybody. It is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very 
existence, of every man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. 
Everybody has the right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] 
nature of his own soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right 
to enjoy permanent peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'  
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.   
Some people feel that the outer or material joys of life are opposed to, or 
diminish, the spiritual value, and that one has to give up, or become detached, 
from material values in order to achieve inner fulfillment.   Below is a short 
video of Maharishi reflecting on the topic of spirituality. Here Maharishi 
points out that inner spirituality does not conflict with the outer material 
value of life: See video 
onhttp://www.enlightenmentforeveryone.com/spirituality/. 
http://www.enlightenmentforeveryone.com/spirituality/   Maharishi always said 
we should enjoy 200% of life—100% of the inner spiritual value along with 100% 
of the outer material value. He offered Transcendental Meditation as a simple 
way to integrate abstract absolute being with the concrete details of the 
relative.
 
  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[olliesed...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Thanks - I like this broader context of the transcendental wave running through 
time and consciousness, with some of us picking it up (again and again) as it 
comes by. Perhaps the efficiency of the TM technique (diving deeply, precisely, 
and quickly, 2 x 20) speaks to this age, where we don't have a lot of time to 
learn about transcending. Nature's balance for fast-paced modern life, and with 
any luck, some progress in the meantime.  
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Well, in a line Maharishi's transcendentalism message a hundred years before 
was carried forward as American Transcendentalism by Emerson and the American 
transcendentalist satsanga at the time. Same message of populist 
transcendentalism was carried then as seems always has been carried in somewhat 
of a line through time. 
  Transcendentalism evidently has long lineage. Evidently Transcending as 
experience and then transcendentalism as satsanga are a story-line to read that 
runs through out time. For instance, Quaker Meeting here in Fairfield starts in 
a little while. George Fox, founder of the historic Society of Friends 
satsanga, he like Maharishi was another mystic in the line of 
transcendentalism.  And, you and we are in that line too, transcendentalists in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 I wonder if little Mahesh ever got the inkling as he was sitting in school, 
for example, that he would one day grow up to become a famous spiritual 
teacher? The times have definitely favored his message, and so many of us have 
been influenced by this one man. It could have been anybody (though probably 
Indian) that popularized  TM, and yet it just happened to be Maharishi. Even a 
hundred years ago, his mission would have been impossible. 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 From the MVS Thesaurus: 

 Spirituality
 Description In 1957, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that:   'Spiritual development 
is the birthright of everyone, for it is the unfoldment of the essential nature 
of the soul, or inner consciousness…. Soul is the individual property of 
everybody. It is the natural and inseparable possession, nay, the very 
existence, of every man. Everybody has the right to enjoy his own possession. 
Everybody has the right to enjoy the sat [truth] chit [Being] ananda [bliss] 
nature of his own soul. In the most natural manner, everybody has every right 
to enjoy permanent peace, bliss eternal, which is the nature of his own soul.'  
 -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Thirty Years Around the World—Dawn of the Age of 
Enlightenment, Volume One 1957-1964 (Netherlands: MVU Press, 1986), p. 195.   
Some people feel that the outer or material joys of life are opposed to, or 
diminish, the spiritual value, and that one has to give up, or become detached, 
from material values in order to achieve inner fulfillment.   Below is a short 
video of Maharishi reflecting on the topic of spirituality. Here Maharishi 
points out that inner spirituality does not conflict with the outer material 
value of life: See video 
onhttp://www.enlightenmentforeveryone.com/spirituality/. 
http://www.enlightenmentforeveryone.com/spirituality/   Maharishi always said 
we should enjoy 200% of life—100% of the inner spiritual value along with 100% 
of the outer material value. He offered Transcendental Meditation as a simple 
way to integrate abstract absolute being with the concrete details of the 
relative.
 
  

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

I have no problem with differing meditation systems having a consistent EEG 
pattern, and that very likely each system will have a different pattern. The 
question is what does that pattern mean in terms of experience and knowledge 
and living life. I like research, it can tell us a lot, but in the 
'enlightenment' game, it ultimately is not the final arbiter of what's going 
on, does not establish value, does not establish the end game of this 
particular avenue of human endeavour. It all comes down to the knowledge of 
being and art of living. M changed the word 'knowledge' to 'science' which puts 
emphasis on path to that knowledge, but the actual experience of being, which 
everybody has 100%, is what it is all about, and of course, it is all about, 
you can't miss it. But then you can if the mind is distracted. 

 Based on records of human experience we can say this: for each person who has 
been successful in this undertaking, some particular meditation system worked 
best for them, if they used a meditation system at all (as some people seem to 
have realised being without any system).
 

 I noticed you used the word 'most': 'TM is different from *most* other forms 
of meditation...'. What other forms of meditation than TM results in the same 
or similar brain response to the practise, since you seem to have allowed 
exceptions?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote :

 Saying that I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent EEG pattern for TM.
 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent, but different-than-TM, EEG 
pattern for mindfulness.
 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent, but different-than-TM, EEG 
pattern for focused attention practices.
 

 

 

 L
 

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :

 On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:

   TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the brain reacts 
to the practice.

 
 Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.  
 
 “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually 
come to believe it.
 - Joseph Goebbels
 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife]]

A few studies on Ch'an and Zen seen to show the same general pattern. 

 On the other hand, other studies on CH'an and Zen don't.
 

 

 This goes along with the idea that teaching meditation is generally an art, 
and Maharishi's greatest accomplishment was to create technicians who could 
produce art-by-rote.
 

 

 L
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 I have no problem with differing meditation systems having a consistent EEG 
pattern, and that very likely each system will have a different pattern. The 
question is what does that pattern mean in terms of experience and knowledge 
and living life. I like research, it can tell us a lot, but in the 
'enlightenment' game, it ultimately is not the final arbiter of what's going 
on, does not establish value, does not establish the end game of this 
particular avenue of human endeavour. It all comes down to the knowledge of 
being and art of living. M changed the word 'knowledge' to 'science' which puts 
emphasis on path to that knowledge, but the actual experience of being, which 
everybody has 100%, is what it is all about, and of course, it is all about, 
you can't miss it. But then you can if the mind is distracted. 

 Based on records of human experience we can say this: for each person who has 
been successful in this undertaking, some particular meditation system worked 
best for them, if they used a meditation system at all (as some people seem to 
have realised being without any system).
 

 I noticed you used the word 'most': 'TM is different from *most* other forms 
of meditation...'. What other forms of meditation than TM results in the same 
or similar brain response to the practise, since you seem to have allowed 
exceptions?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote :

 Saying that I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent EEG pattern for TM.
 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent, but different-than-TM, EEG 
pattern for mindfulness.
 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent, but different-than-TM, EEG 
pattern for focused attention practices.
 

 

 

 L
 

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :

 On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:

   TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the brain reacts 
to the practice.

 
 Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.  
 
 “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually 
come to believe it.
 - Joseph Goebbels
 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 8/11/2014 8:27 AM, anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:


I have no problem with differing meditation systems having a 
consistent EEG pattern, and that very likely each system will have a 
different pattern. The question is what does that pattern mean in 
terms of experience and knowledge and living life. I like research, it 
can tell us a lot, but in the 'enlightenment' game, it ultimately is 
not the final arbiter of what's going on, does not establish value, 
does not establish the end game of this particular avenue of human 
endeavour. It all comes down to the knowledge of being and art of 
living. M changed the word 'knowledge' to 'science' which puts 
emphasis on path to that knowledge, but the actual experience of 
being, which everybody has 100%, is what it is all about, and of 
course, it is all about, you can't miss it. But then you can if the 
mind is distracted.



Based on records of human experience we can say this: for each person 
who has been successful in this undertaking, some particular 
meditation system worked best for them, if they used a meditation 
system at all (as some people seem to have realised being without any 
system).


I noticed you used the word 'most': 'TM is different from *most* other 
forms of meditation...'.What other forms of meditation than TM results 
in the same or similar brain response to the practise, since you seem 
to have allowed exceptions?


Since Vaj stopped posting to FFL there is probably nobody on this list 
that is familiar with the research going on with the Shamantha Project 
by B. Alan Wallace in Santa Barbara, Boulder and Phuket, Thailand. 
Wallace spent fourteen years as a Buddhist monk, ordained by H. H. the 
Dalai Lama. He then earned his undergraduate degree, summa cum laude, in 
physics and the philosophy of science at Amherst College, and he earned 
a doctorate in religious studies from Stanford.


'Contemplative Science: Where Buddhism and Neuroscience Converge'
by B. Alan Wallace, Ph.D.
Columbia University Press, 2009
Amazon:
http://tinyurl.com/8y94e7hUniversity

Part 1 - Alan Wallace discusses Phuket Mind Training Academy
http://youtu.be/vc1ZegoMOHU




---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote :

Saying that I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong.

I can cite study after study showing a consistent EEG pattern for TM.

I can cite study after study showing a consistent, but 
different-than-TM, EEG pattern for mindfulness.


I can cite study after study showing a consistent, but 
different-than-TM, EEG pattern for focused attention practices.




L


---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :

On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:



TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how
the brain reacts to the practice.



Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make
it true.

/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people
will eventually come to believe it.
- Joseph Goebbels

/ 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife]]

TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the brain reacts to 
the practice. 

 You can pontificate all you want, but measurable physical activity trumps 
philosophy every time, or so I believe.
 

 

 Here's a fine example of how far apart two practices can be, both of which are 
sometimes described as effortless.
 

 Shamatha:
 

 http://www.samatha.org/eeg http://www.samatha.org/eeg

 

 

 

 TM:
 

 Transcendental Meditation activates default mode network, the brain's natural 
ground state | (e) Science News 
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/03/04/transcendental.meditation.activates.default.mode.network.brains.natural.ground.state
 
 
 
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/03/04/transcendental.meditation.activates.default.mode.network.brains.natural.ground.state
 
 
 Transcendental Meditation activates default mode net... 
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/03/04/transcendental.meditation.activates.default.mode.network.brains.natural.ground.state
 A new EEG study conducted on college students at American University found 
they could more highly activate the default mode network, a suggested na...
 
 
 
 View on esciencenew... 
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/03/04/transcendental.meditation.activates.default.mode.network.brains.natural.ground.state
 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
  


 

 If  you want to go with the high level description thing, TM is described in 
that second link as enhancing the normal resting mode of the brain. 
 

 On the other hand, it is a point of pride for mindfulness researchers to brag 
about how mindfulness practices completely transform the normal resting mode of 
the brain -to the point, that at least one researcher proposes that referring 
to meditation as rest to explain the health benefits simply doesn't make 
sense, as the normal resting mode of the brain is NOT as active during 
mindfulness and concentrative practices.
 

 

 How this applies to the paper you quote, I can't say.
 

 This researcher, Britton, Willoughby https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton, 
has published and lectured on the topic more than anyone else. I got her in 
touch with Fred Travis et al some time ago, but no research collaboration is 
pending as far as I know.
 
 
 
 https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton 
 
 Britton, Willoughby https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton underlined names 
denote a mentored stuent of Willoughby Britton Britton, W.B. Niles, H.F., 
Lepp., N.E.,  Rocha, T., Fisher, N., Gold., J., (in press). 
 
 
 
 View on vivo.brown.edu https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
  

 

 L
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Meditation-Related Psychosis
 

 Almost all of us posting to Fairfield Life are practising TM or at some point 
practised TM. So we can conclude that the way we are now is in some way related 
to TM practice. We are the poster-child for TM. Normally selecting a 
poster-child for a particular agenda is a process that is highly edited to show 
the particular agenda in the best light. But here on Fairfield Life, it all 
comes out, and on forums where the lack personal face-to-face confrontation can 
act as a dis-inhibitor, it all comes out. 
 

 Whatever our disposition here, it is a reflection of TM practice to a specific 
degree, and what comes out is not necessarily what a pro-TM stance would like 
to see revealed in the light scrutiny. A small percentage of people have 
serious problems related to TM and other meditations. The percentage would be 
higher if more people continued with the practice, but if, as a conservative 
estimate based on limited data indicates, at best only about 5 percent to 10 
percent of people who learn meditation continue with it. So the number of 
people with serious problems probably would be 10 to 20 times greater were 
everyone regular with the practice. 
 

 It is estimated only about 1% of people who practice meditation have really 
serious problems.
 

 The following link to a web page is to a post of a psychologists's Ph.D. 
thesis called Meditation-Related Psychosis. This paper only tangentially 
mentions TM as it largely discusses the problem of mental difficulties related 
to meditation of various kinds from a Buddhist perspective. Since there has 
been a discussion here recently of mental problems with TM in Fairfield, this 
paper provides an interesting overview of how various Buddhist teachers handle 
the problems of students cracking up as a result of meditation, and some of 
this information could be valuable and applied to the situation in Fairfield. 
The paper also gives a good digest of the the philosophy and practices involved 
in the three main branches of Buddhism, which most of us here are ignorant of. 
The author of the paper is a practising psychologist in Colorado.
 

 
http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2012/03/meditation-related-psychosis-from.html
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Meditation-Related Psychosis
 

 Almost all of us posting to Fairfield Life are practising TM or at some point 
practised TM. So we can conclude that the way we are now is in some way related 
to TM practice. We are the poster-child for TM. Normally selecting a 
poster-child for a particular agenda is a process that is highly edited to show 
the particular agenda in the best light. But here on Fairfield Life, it all 
comes out, and on forums where the lack personal face-to-face confrontation can 
act as a dis-inhibitor, it all comes out. 
 

 Whatever our disposition here, it is a reflection of TM practice to a specific 
degree, and what comes out is not necessarily what a pro-TM stance would like 
to see revealed in the light scrutiny. A small percentage of people have 
serious problems related to TM and other meditations. The percentage would be 
higher if more people continued with the practice, but if, as a conservative 
estimate based on limited data indicates, at best only about 5 percent to 10 
percent of people who learn meditation continue with it. So the number of 
people with serious problems probably would be 10 to 20 times greater were 
everyone regular with the practice. 
 

 It is estimated only about 1% of people who practice meditation have really 
serious problems.
 

 The following link to a web page is to a post of a psychologists's Ph.D. 
thesis called Meditation-Related Psychosis. This paper only tangentially 
mentions TM as it largely discusses the problem of mental difficulties related 
to meditation of various kinds from a Buddhist perspective. Since there has 
been a discussion here recently of mental problems with TM in Fairfield, this 
paper provides an interesting overview of how various Buddhist teachers handle 
the problems of students cracking up as a result of meditation, and some of 
this information could be valuable and applied to the situation in Fairfield. 
The paper also gives a good digest of the the philosophy and practices involved 
in the three main branches of Buddhism, which most of us here are ignorant of. 
The author of the paper is a practising psychologist in Colorado.
 

 
http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2012/03/meditation-related-psychosis-from.html
 
http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2012/03/meditation-related-psychosis-from.html
 

 After reading this paper, which is very long, it occurred to me that all 
meditation techniques are related, that the difference between them is only the 
degree of mental focus and the object of attention. For example TM has a 
certain degree of mental focus (coming back to the mantra) and a certain degree 
of its opposite (take it as it comes). Aside from what is the point of focus (a 
mantra, a word, a phrase, an object, or breath, or the environment) the 
proportion of focus or defocus is what distinguishes the different flavours of 
meditation. Tightening up or relaxation if you will. The paper indicates that 
problems arise if the meditator is too focused on results, or if the practice 
is too focused, i.e., concentrative. Not all non-TM practices are concentrative 
as the movement would have one believe. 
 

 One interesting point is the behavioural training in these traditions 
(morality if you will) is part of the traditional teaching. TM is taught mostly 
stripped of its traditional Hindu morality baggage, and this might also be a 
factor in why people practising TM and other meditations become ungrounded and 
antisocial because the context in which the techniques evolved is largely 
missing. This might explain why the environment of the movement seems at times 
toxic or psychotic because the normal 'civilised' behavioural environment has 
been disrupted. 
 

 The following link is to a report from a person who claims to have been a 
victim of TM, and whether or not you agree with this, this person is a 
poster-child for TM. Note that the average poster-child for TM is someone who 
learned TM and then stopped practising, and who might at some future time start 
up again, or not, or try something else.
 

 http://www.myownmind.com/TM%20Victim.cfm 
http://www.myownmind.com/TM%20Victim.cfm
 

 The following is a link to a discussion of the potential connexion between 
spirituality and psychosis.
 

 http://nozeninthewest.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/psychotic-or-spiritual/ 
http://nozeninthewest.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/psychotic-or-spiritual/
 

 
 For myself, I never cracked up, but I had some very dark experiences resulting 
from the spiritual path which directly stem from the practice of TM but I was 
always able to find information outside the TM purview that kept me grounded, 
so I do not regard TM with disdain and still use the technique. In other words, 
over time, with regard to movement advice, I began to trust my own judgement 
over the movement's, and this worked out much better for me. After all, 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Meditation-Related Psychosis
 

 Almost all of us posting to Fairfield Life are practising TM or at some point 
practised TM. So we can conclude that the way we are now is in some way related 
to TM practice. We are the poster-child for TM. Normally selecting a 
poster-child for a particular agenda is a process that is highly edited to show 
the particular agenda in the best light. But here on Fairfield Life, it all 
comes out, and on forums where the lack personal face-to-face confrontation can 
act as a dis-inhibitor, it all comes out. 
 

 Whatever our disposition here, it is a reflection of TM practice to a specific 
degree, and what comes out is not necessarily what a pro-TM stance would like 
to see revealed in the light scrutiny. A small percentage of people have 
serious problems related to TM and other meditations. The percentage would be 
higher if more people continued with the practice, but if, as a conservative 
estimate based on limited data indicates, at best only about 5 percent to 10 
percent of people who learn meditation continue with it. So the number of 
people with serious problems probably would be 10 to 20 times greater were 
everyone regular with the practice. 
 

 It is estimated only about 1% of people who practice meditation have really 
serious problems.
 

 The following link to a web page is to a post of a psychologists's Ph.D. 
thesis called Meditation-Related Psychosis. This paper only tangentially 
mentions TM as it largely discusses the problem of mental difficulties related 
to meditation of various kinds from a Buddhist perspective. Since there has 
been a discussion here recently of mental problems with TM in Fairfield, this 
paper provides an interesting overview of how various Buddhist teachers handle 
the problems of students cracking up as a result of meditation, and some of 
this information could be valuable and applied to the situation in Fairfield. 
The paper also gives a good digest of the the philosophy and practices involved 
in the three main branches of Buddhism, which most of us here are ignorant of. 
The author of the paper is a practising psychologist in Colorado.
 

 
http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2012/03/meditation-related-psychosis-from.html
 
http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2012/03/meditation-related-psychosis-from.html
 

 After reading this paper, which is very long, it occurred to me that all 
meditation techniques are related, that the difference between them is only the 
degree of mental focus and the object of attention. For example TM has a 
certain degree of mental focus (coming back to the mantra) and a certain degree 
of its opposite (take it as it comes). Aside from what is the point of focus (a 
mantra, a word, a phrase, an object, or breath, or the environment) the 
proportion of focus or defocus is what distinguishes the different flavours of 
meditation. Tightening up or relaxation if you will. The paper indicates that 
problems arise if the meditator is too focused on results, or if the practice 
is too focused, i.e., concentrative. Not all non-TM practices are concentrative 
as the movement would have one believe. 
 

 One interesting point is the behavioural training in these traditions 
(morality if you will) is part of the traditional teaching. TM is taught mostly 
stripped of its traditional Hindu morality baggage, and this might also be a 
factor in why people practising TM and other meditations become ungrounded and 
antisocial because the context in which the techniques evolved is largely 
missing. This might explain why the environment of the movement seems at times 
toxic or psychotic because the normal 'civilised' behavioural environment has 
been disrupted. 
 

 The following link is to a report from a person who claims to have been a 
victim of TM, and whether or not you agree with this, this person is a 
poster-child for TM. Note that the average poster-child for TM is someone who 
learned TM and then stopped practising, and who might at some future time start 
up again, or not, or try something else.
 

 - MyOwnMind - Transcendental Meditation Victim 
http://www.myownmind.com/TM%20Victim.cfm
 
 
 http://www.myownmind.com/TM%20Victim.cfm 
 
 - MyOwnMind - Transcendental Meditation... 
http://www.myownmind.com/TM%20Victim.cfm Anonymous TM Victim I was a TMer for 
18 years, living in Fairfield for the last 15 of them. I left the group about 3 
years a...
 
 
 
 View on www.myownmind.com http://www.myownmind.com/TM%20Victim.cfm 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
 

 Upon reading this account I would have to say a couple of things. First, 
evidently the Movement was correct in making this person wait to learn the 
siddhis because once she did, all hell seemed to have broken loose for her. 
Second, I doubt very much that she didn't already have some real personal 
issues that she herself either didn't express here or she 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[srijau]

scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the other 
technique which are widely used and studied today

Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D. 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 
 
 http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 
 
 Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, ... 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 
Comparison of Techniques Issue: Are all forms of meditation and relaxation the 
same? 
 
 
 
 View on www.truthabouttm.org 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
  

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]]

On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the brain 
reacts to the practice.




Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.

/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it.

- Joseph Goebbels

/

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the 
other technique which are widely used and studied today

it is this kind of prideful garbage that leads to the kind of out to lunch 
attitudes and willingness to ignore reality and claim that negative is positive 
that makes the TM world such a unique place for sure.




 From: sri...@ymail.com sri...@ymail.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:41 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis
 


  
scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the other 
technique which are widely used and studied today

Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D.
 
   Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, ...  
Comparison of Techniques Issue: Are all forms of meditation and relaxation the 
same?   
View on www.truthabouttm.org Preview by Yahoo
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the brain 
reacts to the practice.







Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.

/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it.

- Joseph Goebbels/


It sure didn't take long for this thread to turn to shit. Thanks for 
proving my point.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the 
other technique which are widely used and studied today


On 8/10/2014 11:56 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


it is this kind of prideful garbage that leads to the kind of out to 
lunch attitudes and willingness to ignore reality and claim that 
negative is positive that makes the TM world such a unique place for sure.


If stress has you anxious, tense and worried, consider trying 
meditation. Spending even a few minutes in meditation can restore your 
calm and inner peace. Anyone can practice meditation. It's simple and 
inexpensive, and it doesn't require any special equipment.


'Meditation: A simple, fast way to reduce stress'
Mayo Clinic:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858




*From:* sri...@ymail.com sri...@ymail.com
*To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:41 PM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the 
other technique which are widely used and studied today


Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D. 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm




image 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 




Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, ... 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 

Comparison of Techniques Issue: Are all forms of meditation and 
relaxation the same?


View on www.truthabouttm.org 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 



Preview by Yahoo

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 8/10/2014 10:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the brain 
reacts to the practice.



You can pontificate all you want, but measurable physical activity 
trumps philosophy every time, or so I believe.


It's almost like hearing a faint voice coming out of the wilderness. A 
guy that learned TM wants to start a dialog on FFL - about what it means 
to practice TM! Go figure.





Here's a fine example of how far apart two practices can be, both of 
which are sometimes described as effortless.


Shamatha:

http://www.samatha.org/eeg



TM:

Transcendental Meditation activates default mode network, the brain's 
natural ground state | (e) Science News 
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/03/04/transcendental.meditation.activates.default.mode.network.brains.natural.ground.state 





image 
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/03/04/transcendental.meditation.activates.default.mode.network.brains.natural.ground.state 




Transcendental Meditation activates default mode net... 
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/03/04/transcendental.meditation.activates.default.mode.network.brains.natural.ground.state 

A new EEG study conducted on college students at American University 
found they could more highly activate the default mode network, a 
suggested na...


View on esciencenew... 
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/03/04/transcendental.meditation.activates.default.mode.network.brains.natural.ground.state 



Preview by Yahoo



If  you want to go with the high level description thing, TM is 
described in that second link as enhancing the normal resting mode of 
the brain.


On the other hand, it is a point of pride for mindfulness researchers 
to brag about how mindfulness practices completely transform the 
normal resting mode of the brain -to the point, that at least one 
researcher proposes that referring to meditation as rest to explain 
the health benefits simply doesn't make sense, as the normal resting 
mode of the brain is NOT as active during mindfulness and 
concentrative practices.



How this applies to the paper you quote, I can't say.

This researcher, Britton, Willoughby 
https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton, has published and lectured 
on the topic more than anyone else. I got her in touch with Fred 
Travis et al some time ago, but no research collaboration is pending 
as far as I know.





image https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton


Britton, Willoughby https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton
underlined names denote a mentored stuent of Willoughby Britton 
Britton, W.B. Niles, H.F., Lepp., N.E.,  Rocha, T., Fisher, N., Gold., 
J., (in press).


View on vivo.brown.edu https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton

Preview by Yahoo


L


---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

Meditation-Related Psychosis


Almost all of us posting to Fairfield Life are practising TM or at 
some point practised TM. So we can conclude that the way we are now is 
in some way related to TM practice. We are the poster-child for TM. 
Normally selecting a poster-child for a particular agenda is a process 
that is highly edited to show the particular agenda in the best light. 
But here on Fairfield Life, it all comes out, and on forums where the 
lack personal face-to-face confrontation can act as a dis-inhibitor, 
it all comes out.



Whatever our disposition here, it is a reflection of TM practice to a 
specific degree, and what comes out is not necessarily what a pro-TM 
stance would like to see revealed in the light scrutiny. A small 
percentage of people have serious problems related to TM and other 
meditations. The percentage would be higher if more people continued 
with the practice, but if, as a conservative estimate based on limited 
data indicates, at best only about 5 percent to 10 percent of people 
who learn meditation continue with it. So the number of people with 
serious problems probably would be 10 to 20 times greater were 
everyone regular with the practice.



It is estimated only about 1% of people who practice meditation have 
really serious problems.



The following link to a web page is to a post of a psychologists's 
Ph.D. thesis called Meditation-Related Psychosis. This paper only 
tangentially mentions TM as it largely discusses the problem of mental 
difficulties related to meditation of various kinds from a Buddhist 
perspective. Since there has been a discussion here recently of mental 
problems with TM in Fairfield, this paper provides an interesting 
overview of how various Buddhist teachers handle the problems of 
students cracking up as a result of meditation, and some of this 
information could be valuable and applied to the situation in 
Fairfield. The paper also gives a good digest of the the philosophy 
and practices involved in the three main branches of Buddhism, which 
most of us here are 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Nice find, Richard and everyone. At this point it's a mystery to me why some 
people crack and some don't. In general I think unresolved childhood issues can 
wreck havoc even with our health. Good to get them resolved if there's severe 
trauma involved.



On Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:07 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' 
pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
 


  


  

scientific research has now shown that despite using
this common term meditation in english, TM has little
or nothing in common with the other technique which are
widely used and studied today

On 8/10/2014 11:56 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:


it is this kind of prideful garbage that leads to the kind of out to lunch 
attitudes and willingness to ignore reality and claim that negative is positive 
that makes the TM world such a unique place for sure.


If stress has you anxious, tense and worried, consider trying
meditation. Spending even a few minutes in meditation can restore
your calm and inner peace. Anyone can practice meditation. It's
simple and inexpensive, and it doesn't require any special
equipment.

'Meditation: A simple, fast way to reduce stress'
Mayo Clinic: 
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858






 From: sri...@ymail.com sri...@ymail.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:41 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis
 


  
scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the other 
technique which are widely used and studied today

Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D.

 


   Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, ...  
Comparison of Techniques Issue: Are all forms of meditation and relaxation the 
same?  
 
View on www.truthabouttm.org Preview by Yahoo   

 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 8/10/2014 12:49 PM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:
Nice find, Richard and everyone. At this point it's a mystery to me 
why some people crack and some don't. In general I think unresolved 
childhood issues can wreck havoc even with our health. Good to get 
them resolved if there's severe trauma involved.


Apparently there is not a single scientific report that proves that the 
practice of TM is the cause of psychosis or ay other adverse mental or 
medical condition. Almost all anecdotal reports indicate a preexisting 
condition. If there were any scientific, double-blind studies concerning 
TM causing psychosis maybe somebody could post the link to FFL so we 
could read it. Thanks.





On Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:07 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' 
pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
wrote:






scientific research has now shown that despite using this common 
term meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with 
the other technique which are widely used and studied today


On 8/10/2014 11:56 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com 
mailto:mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:


it is this kind of prideful garbage that leads to the kind of out to 
lunch attitudes and willingness to ignore reality and claim that 
negative is positive that makes the TM world such a unique place for 
sure.


If stress has you anxious, tense and worried, consider trying 
meditation. Spending even a few minutes in meditation can restore your 
calm and inner peace. Anyone can practice meditation. It's simple and 
inexpensive, and it doesn't require any special equipment.


'Meditation: A simple, fast way to reduce stress'
Mayo Clinic:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858




*From:* sri...@ymail.com mailto:sri...@ymail.com 
sri...@ymail.com mailto:sri...@ymail.com
*To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com

*Sent:* Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:41 PM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the 
other technique which are widely used and studied today


Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D. 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm




image 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 




Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, ... 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 

Comparison of Techniques Issue: Are all forms of meditation and 
relaxation the same?


View on www.truthabouttm.org 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 



Preview by Yahoo

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]]

On 08/10/2014 10:03 AM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:



On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the brain 
reacts to the practice.







Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.

/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it.

- Joseph Goebbels/


It sure didn't take long for this thread to turn to shit. Thanks for 
proving my point.


Check FFL in Chrome (which you like  to recommend) on your smartphone.  
You'll notice it doesn't actually show your post.  You might want to 
change the way you reply.  When I'm out and about I like to look at what 
the usual suspects are up to on FFL via my Android phone.  A lot of 
people's replies show, yours don't.


As for my reply to Lawson, he's been droning this for years.  I'm not 
saying there's anything wrong with TM just that one shoe size does not 
fit all.  I think Maharishi knew that and figured if it didn't work for 
someone they would try something else (just as they do in India).  At 
$35 and $75 to learn that would work but not at the later greedy high fees.


TM uses as very standard process of meditation that has been around for 
centuries.  Unfortunately from what I can tell even a Phd in Vedic 
Science does not teach basic mantra shastra.  I'm guessing if it did 
they folks with those would hang out their own shingles and teach their 
own brand of meditation.  Not that mantra shastra is complicated.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 8/10/2014 2:02 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 08/10/2014 10:03 AM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:



On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the 
brain reacts to the practice.







Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.

/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it.

- Joseph Goebbels/


It sure didn't take long for this thread to turn to shit. Thanks for 
proving my point.


Check FFL in Chrome (which you like  to recommend) on your smartphone.


Thanks, but look me straight in the eye and tell me I give a shit if you 
can't read my reply on your dum Android device. I'm formatting for 
Yahoo! Neo so the nerds can read it.


You'll notice it doesn't actually show your post.  You might want to 
change the way you reply. When I'm out and about I like to look at 
what the usual suspects are up to on FFL via my Android phone.  A lot 
of people's replies show, yours don't.


As for my reply to Lawson, he's been droning this for years.  I'm not 
saying there's anything wrong with TM just that one shoe size does not 
fit all.  I think Maharishi knew that and figured if it didn't work 
for someone they would try something else (just as they do in India).  
At $35 and $75 to learn that would work but not at the later greedy 
high fees.


TM uses as very standard process of meditation that has been around 
for centuries.  Unfortunately from what I can tell even a Phd in Vedic 
Science does not teach basic mantra shastra.  I'm guessing if it did 
they folks with those would hang out their own shingles and teach 
their own brand of meditation.  Not that mantra shastra is complicated.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 8/10/2014 2:02 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:

 As for my reply to Lawson, he's been droning this for years.  I'm not 
 saying there's anything wrong with TM just that one shoe size does not 
 fit all.  I think Maharishi knew that and figured if it didn't work 
 for someone they would try something else (just as they do in India).  
 At $35 and $75 to learn that would work but not at the later greedy 
 high fees.
 
That's why MMY gave out different mantras to different people, because 
one size does not fit all. Get a grip - thousands of people purchase 
tobacco at $8.00 a pack every day. Go figure.
 

 TM uses as very standard process of meditation that has been around 
 for centuries.  Unfortunately from what I can tell even a Phd in Vedic 
 Science does not teach basic mantra shastra.  I'm guessing if it did 
 they folks with those would hang out their own shingles and teach 
 their own brand of meditation.  Not that mantra shastra is complicated.
 
In TM you only get one single mantra - that's all you need in order to 
provide the ideal opportunity for the transcending. You don't need to 
get a Ph.D. in Vedic Science - all you need to do is follow the checking 
notes after you teach the technique. It's not complicated. A mantra can 
be anything the guru says it is.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]]

On 08/10/2014 12:11 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 8/10/2014 2:02 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:


On 08/10/2014 10:03 AM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:



On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the 
brain reacts to the practice.







Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.

/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it.

- Joseph Goebbels/


It sure didn't take long for this thread to turn to shit. Thanks for 
proving my point.


Check FFL in Chrome (which you like  to recommend) on your smartphone.


Thanks, but look me straight in the eye and tell me I give a shit if 
you can't read my reply on your dum Android device. I'm formatting for 
Yahoo! Neo so the nerds can read it.


You've bragged about your smartphones.  Why don't you use them?  And 
other folks who post via the website are readable.  You portend to be a 
techpert but seem to be missing on this one.


The idea behind Neo (and  other mobile first designs) was consistency 
between platforms.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 8/10/2014 2:52 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 08/10/2014 12:11 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 8/10/2014 2:02 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:


On 08/10/2014 10:03 AM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:



On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the 
brain reacts to the practice.







Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.

/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it.

- Joseph Goebbels/


It sure didn't take long for this thread to turn to shit. Thanks 
for proving my point.


Check FFL in Chrome (which you like  to recommend) on your smartphone.


Thanks, but look me straight in the eye and tell me I give a shit if 
you can't read my reply on your dum Android device. I'm formatting 
for Yahoo! Neo so the nerds can read it.


You've bragged about your smartphones.  Why don't you use them?  And 
other folks who post via the website are readable.  You portend to be 
a techpert but seem to be missing on this one.


The idea behind Neo (and  other mobile first designs) was 
consistency between platforms.


We are using Nokia Smartphones on T-Mobile for mobile phone calls and we 
are using a Windows PC to read the internet with wired broadband at 15 
Mbps. We are both computer professionals and we both think cell phones 
suck. Go figure.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife]]

Saying that I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent EEG pattern for TM.
 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent, but different-than-TM, EEG 
pattern for mindfulness.
 

 I can cite study after study showing a consistent, but different-than-TM, EEG 
pattern for focused attention practices.
 

 

 What do you cite?
 

 You're wrong Lawson.
 

 self referral at it's finest, I guess.
 

 

 L
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :

 On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:

   TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the brain reacts 
to the practice.

 
 Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it true.  
 
 “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually 
come to believe it.
 - Joseph Goebbels
 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife]]

The latest research proposed for TM and PTSD will actually measure gene 
expression differences in the test subjects to see if that has any effect on 
how well they do with various practices: 

 TM, Health Education, Prolonged Exposure therapy.
 

 

 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25066921 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25066921

 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :

 Nice find, Richard and everyone. At this point it's a mystery to me why some 
people crack and some don't. In general I think unresolved childhood issues can 
wreck havoc even with our health. Good to get them resolved if there's severe 
trauma involved.

 


 On Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:07 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' punditster@... 
[FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
 
 

   
 

   
 scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the other 
technique which are widely used and studied today


 
 On 8/10/2014 11:56 AM, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:
 
 it is this kind of prideful garbage that leads to the kind of out to lunch 
attitudes and willingness to ignore reality and claim that negative is positive 
that makes the TM world such a unique place for sure.





 
 If stress has you anxious, tense and worried, consider trying meditation. 
Spending even a few minutes in meditation can restore your calm and inner 
peace. Anyone can practice meditation. It's simple and inexpensive, and it 
doesn't require any special equipment.
 
 'Meditation: A simple, fast way to reduce stress'
 Mayo Clinic: 
 
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858
 
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858
 
 

 From: srijau@... mailto:srijau@... srijau@... mailto:srijau@...
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:41 PM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis
 
 
   scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the other 
technique which are widely used and studied today
 
 Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D.
 
 
 
 
 Comparison of Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, ... Comparison of Techniques 
Issue: Are all forms of meditation and relaxation the same?


 
 View on www.truthabouttm.org 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

  




 
 








 

 


 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Re Apparently there is not a single scientific report that proves that the 
practice of TM is the cause of psychosis or any other adverse mental or medical 
condition. Almost all anecdotal reports indicate a preexisting condition. If 
there were any scientific, double-blind studies concerning TM causing psychosis 
maybe somebody could post the link to FFL so we could read it. :
 

 People said exactly the same about LSD casualties: if you were a burn-out that 
was because you were primed to go psycho anyway and the acid trip just tipped 
the balance. 
 And how can you do a double-blind study on the effects of TM? A double-blind 
means neither the researchers NOR THE SUBJECTS would know who had taken a 
placebo and who a drug. How can you not be aware that you're practising TM?
 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

 On 8/10/2014 12:49 PM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@... 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:

   Nice find, Richard and everyone. At this point it's a mystery to me why some 
people crack and some don't. In general I think unresolved childhood issues can 
wreck havoc even with our health. Good to get them resolved if there's severe 
trauma involved.
 


 
 Apparently there is not a single scientific report that proves that the 
practice of TM is the cause of psychosis or ay other adverse mental or medical 
condition. Almost all anecdotal reports indicate a preexisting condition. If 
there were any scientific, double-blind studies concerning TM causing psychosis 
maybe somebody could post the link to FFL so we could read it. Thanks.
 
 
 

 On Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:07 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' punditster@... 
mailto:punditster@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
 
 
 
   
 

   
 scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the other 
technique which are widely used and studied today


 
 On 8/10/2014 11:56 AM, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:
 
 it is this kind of prideful garbage that leads to the kind of out to lunch 
attitudes and willingness to ignore reality and claim that negative is positive 
that makes the TM world such a unique place for sure.





 
 If stress has you anxious, tense and worried, consider trying meditation. 
Spending even a few minutes in meditation can restore your calm and inner 
peace. Anyone can practice meditation. It's simple and inexpensive, and it 
doesn't require any special equipment.
 
 'Meditation: A simple, fast way to reduce stress'
 Mayo Clinic: 
 
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858
 
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858
 
 

 From: srijau@... mailto:srijau@... srijau@... mailto:srijau@...
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:41 PM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis
 
 
   scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the other 
technique which are widely used and studied today
 
 Comparisonof Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D.
 
 
 
 
 Comparisonof Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, ... Comparisonof Techniques 
Issue: Are all forms of meditation and relaxation the same?


 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

[Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]]

On 08/10/2014 05:00 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 8/10/2014 2:52 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:


On 08/10/2014 12:11 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 8/10/2014 2:02 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 08/10/2014 10:03 AM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:



On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the 
brain reacts to the practice.






Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it 
true.


/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it.

- Joseph Goebbels/


It sure didn't take long for this thread to turn to shit. Thanks 
for proving my point.


Check FFL in Chrome (which you like  to recommend) on your smartphone.


Thanks, but look me straight in the eye and tell me I give a shit if 
you can't read my reply on your dum Android device. I'm formatting 
for Yahoo! Neo so the nerds can read it.


You've bragged about your smartphones.  Why don't you use them?  And 
other folks who post via the website are readable.  You portend to be 
a techpert but seem to be missing on this one.


The idea behind Neo (and  other mobile first designs) was 
consistency between platforms.


We are using Nokia Smartphones on T-Mobile for mobile phone calls and 
we are using a Windows PC to read the internet with wired broadband at 
15 Mbps. We are both computer professionals and we both think cell 
phones suck. Go figure.


That's because you are using Windows Mobile.  No wonder you think cell 
phones suck. Ditch it and get a real mobile OS: Android.


BTW, Chrome and Firefox on desktop fail to display your embedded replies 
in the message body as you should be aware by now.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 8/10/2014 8:56 PM, s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:


Re Apparently there is not a single scientific report that proves 
that the practice of TM is the cause of psychosis or any other adverse 
mental or medical condition. Almost all anecdotal reports indicate a 
preexisting condition. If there were any scientific, double-blind 
studies concerning TM causing psychosis maybe somebody could post the 
link to FFL so we could read it. :



People said exactly the same about LSD casualties: if you were a 
burn-out that was because you were primed to go psycho anyway and the 
acid trip just tipped the balance.
And how can you do a double-blind study on the effects of TM? A 
double-blind means neither the researchers NOR THE SUBJECTS would know 
who had taken a placebo and who a drug. How can you not be aware that 
you're practising TM?


You can't conduct a double-blind study of meditation with a control 
group and most scientific studies aren't double-blind studies anyway. 
There are no scientific reports of any kind in any peer-reviewed journal 
that proves that TM causes psychosis - TM isn't even a medical term to 
begin with. However, there are hundreds of reports in peer-reviewed 
journals that indicate that TM may relieve stress, reduce hypertension, 
rehabilitate drug addicts and better manage conflict resolution.







---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

On 8/10/2014 12:49 PM, Share Long sharelong60@... 
mailto:sharelong60@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:


Nice find, Richard and everyone. At this point it's a mystery to
me why some people crack and some don't. In general I think
unresolved childhood issues can wreck havoc even with our health.
Good to get them resolved if there's severe trauma involved.


Apparently there is not a single scientific report that proves that 
the practice of TM is the cause of psychosis or ay other adverse 
mental or medical condition. Almost all anecdotal reports indicate a 
preexisting condition. If there were any scientific, double-blind 
studies concerning TM causing psychosis maybe somebody could post the 
link to FFL so we could read it. Thanks.




On Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:07 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' 
punditster@... mailto:punditster@... [FairfieldLife] 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
wrote:






scientific research has now shown that despite using this common 
term meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with 
the other technique which are widely used and studied today


On 8/10/2014 11:56 AM, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... 
mailto:mjackson74@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:


it is this kind of prideful garbage that leads to the kind of out to 
lunch attitudes and willingness to ignore reality and claim that 
negative is positive that makes the TM world such a unique place for 
sure.


If stress has you anxious, tense and worried, consider trying 
meditation. Spending even a few minutes in meditation can restore your 
calm and inner peace. Anyone can practice meditation. It's simple and 
inexpensive, and it doesn't require any special equipment.


'Meditation: A simple, fast way to reduce stress'
Mayo Clinic:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858




*From:* srijau@... mailto:srijau@... srijau@... mailto:srijau@...
*To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com

*Sent:* Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:41 PM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

scientific research has now shown that despite using this common term 
meditation in english, TM has little or nothing in common with the 
other technique which are widely used and studied today


Comparisonof Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D. 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm




http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm



Comparisonof Techniques - David W. Orme-Johnson, ... 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm 

Comparisonof Techniques Issue: Are all forms of meditation and 
relaxation the same?


View on www.truthabouttm.org 
http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/ComparisonofTechniques/index.cfm


Preview by Yahoo

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality and Psychosis

['Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

On 8/10/2014 9:12 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 08/10/2014 05:00 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 8/10/2014 2:52 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] 
wrote:


On 08/10/2014 12:11 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 8/10/2014 2:02 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:


On 08/10/2014 10:03 AM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:



On 08/10/2014 08:39 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote:


TM is different from most other forms of meditation in how the 
brain reacts to the practice.






Saying this over and over again, Lawson, isn't going to make it 
true.


/“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people 
will eventually come to believe it.

- Joseph Goebbels/


It sure didn't take long for this thread to turn to shit. Thanks 
for proving my point.


Check FFL in Chrome (which you like  to recommend) on your 
smartphone.


Thanks, but look me straight in the eye and tell me I give a shit 
if you can't read my reply on your dum Android device. I'm 
formatting for Yahoo! Neo so the nerds can read it.


You've bragged about your smartphones.  Why don't you use them?  And 
other folks who post via the website are readable.  You portend to 
be a techpert but seem to be missing on this one.


The idea behind Neo (and  other mobile first designs) was 
consistency between platforms.


We are using Nokia Smartphones on T-Mobile for mobile phone calls and 
we are using a Windows PC to read the internet with wired broadband 
at 15 Mbps. We are both computer professionals and we both think cell 
phones suck. Go figure.


That's because you are using Windows Mobile.  No wonder you think cell 
phones suck. Ditch it and get a real mobile OS: Android.


BTW, Chrome and Firefox on desktop fail to display your embedded 
replies in the message body as you should be aware by now.


I'm using Mozilla Thunderbird as my news reader - I don't care what 
you're using or whether you can read my messages or not. If you want to 
use a tiny cellphone for social media that's your business. I can read 
everything just fine - don't need no Android device with a dumb onscreen 
keyboard to chit chat with no two Barrys. Don't talk much on the phone 
anyway - phones suck. If you want to be contacting me real bad, leave a 
message with Rita at Whole Foods - I'll get back to you. It's not 
complicated.

[FairfieldLife] Re: spirituality of self.

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:

  Did Danial Boone have a family? You know, was he also a family man?
Did he get along with people in some form or was it all 'rip-off or be
ripped-off' on the frontier?

Are you implying that ole Dan'l wore a con-skin cap?  :-)

[FairfieldLife] RE: spirituality of self.

[awoelflebater]

Axe-holes and con-skins. We certainly are creating our own culture here at FFL. 
What next, intellectual 
 vibe-wation if Share is to be believed.
 

---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
wrote:
 
  Did Danial Boone have a family? You know, was he also a family man?
 Did he get along with people in some form or was it all 'rip-off or be
 ripped-off' on the frontier?
 
 Are you implying that ole Dan'l wore a con-skin cap? :-)
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[seekliberation]

I think Religion is a bi-product of spirituality, as opposed to sprituality 
being a bi-product of religion.  

First you have spirituality.  Someone achieves great spiritual development and 
achieves a great deal of admiration.  So a bunch of people follow that person, 
record his thoughts and ideas, and then develop a systematic, step by step way 
of becoming like that person (Ex: Jesus, Buddha, etc..), and hence you have a 
religion.  

But spirituality is not just a step by step process or something that can be 
entirely mapped out and followed with the logical mind.  Spirituality is fluid 
as well.  Religion, IMHO, is nothing more than mankinds attempt to turn 
something fluid into something mechanical.  The reason for this, explained in 
terms of astrology, is because mechanical processes take less evolution to 
understand and comprehend.  Mercury, the planet that is responsible for 
organization, intellect, and thinking is a fast rotating planet.  What that 
means is that our consciousness will get used to its influence very quickly.  
Mercury likes step by step processes and causes people to create doctrines, 
rules, and processes of achieving things without developing the essence of the 
intended experience.  As a result, the deep and heavy energies of planets like 
Jupiter and Saturn may never get developed.  Jupiter represents wisdom, and 
Saturn represents transcendence.  Jupiter and Saturn are very slow rotating 
planets, and take a very long time for our sould to get used to.  Developing 
these qualities is not as systematic as the intellect, which explains why 
religious people commonly dislike spiritualists.  Because they prefer the world 
of 'rules and regulations', because rules are easy to follow.  Developing 
something deeper or heavier actually takes a lot of patience, and a lot of 
lifetimes.  

seekliberation





--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote:

 Some people like to say that they are 'spiritual' as opposed to being 
 'Religious', but that is ridiculous as spirituality is the bi-product of 
 Religion.  
 
 Religion is the means and Spirituality is the end! Meditation is a tool of 
 Religion, it's not the Religion itself, much like a steering wheel of a car, 
 you wouldn't say the steering wheel IS the car but it is an instrumental PART 
 Of the car. Like that, TM is a tool of Religion, you may call it a Religious 
 Science as it comes from the *eternal Religion of the Vedas* MMY, the 
 Sanatana Dharma.
 
 Some people would suggest to you perhaps that they mean they are not a part 
 of a 'sectarian' Religion!, but sincere souls that practice their 'sectarian' 
 Religion BECOME spiritual just like meditators that practice TM BECOME 
 spiritual.  One may be more effective and some may be mere dogma, this is 
 true, but a sincere soul attracts spirituality in whatever 'Religion' or 
 'means' he/she may practice, IMHO.
 
 In short, TM is a Religious tool of the eternal Religion of the Vedas, This 
 is the greatest blessing of the Vedas, this system of meditation is the 
 greatest blessing of the Vedas, MMY, the Vedas (booklet 1964).
 
 (Generally, you don't BECOME spiritual without practicing some form of 
 Religion, today, most people who claim to be 'spiritual' (as opposed to 
 Religious) *ARE* practicing some from of discipline i.e. RELIGION).
 
 PS They also tend to look down their noses at sectarian Religious people, 
 seeing themselves as being SUPERIOR.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[wgm4u]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seekliberation seekliberation@... 
wrote:

 I think Religion is a bi-product of spirituality, as opposed to sprituality 
 being a bi-product of religion.  

It is very difficult to gain *proficiency* in Religion without spirituality, 
this is true, that is why they go hand in hand, and in yoga, samadhi is both 
the means and the end. It's not one or the other, it's both together.

Taken together they result in the unfoldment of pure consciousness and the 
fulfillment of life, which is spirituality. Spirituality is the end, and 
religion with God's help is the means, 8 limbs taken together. FWIW


 First you have spirituality.  Someone achieves great spiritual development 
 and achieves a great deal of admiration.  So a bunch of people follow that 
 person, record his thoughts and ideas, and then develop a systematic, step by 
 step way of becoming like that person (Ex: Jesus, Buddha, etc..), and hence 
 you have a religion.  

And how does that person 'achieve' great spiritual development?, through a 
Religion developed by someone who achieved great spiritual development, and on 
and on it goes, religion leads to spirituality which is the substance of 
religion. FWIW. :-)

 
 But spirituality is not just a step by step process or something that can be 
 entirely mapped out and followed with the logical mind.  Spirituality is 
 fluid as well.  Religion, IMHO, is nothing more than mankinds attempt to turn 
 something fluid into something mechanical.  The reason for this, explained in 
 terms of astrology, is because mechanical processes take less evolution to 
 understand and comprehend.  Mercury, the planet that is responsible for 
 organization, intellect, and thinking is a fast rotating planet.  What that 
 means is that our consciousness will get used to its influence very quickly.  
 Mercury likes step by step processes and causes people to create doctrines, 
 rules, and processes of achieving things without developing the essence of 
 the intended experience.  As a result, the deep and heavy energies of planets 
 like Jupiter and Saturn may never get developed.  Jupiter represents wisdom, 
 and Saturn represents transcendence.  Jupiter and Saturn are very slow 
 rotating planets, and take a very long time for our sould to get used to.  
 Developing these qualities is not as systematic as the intellect, which 
 explains why religious people commonly dislike spiritualists.  Because they 
 prefer the world of 'rules and regulations', because rules are easy to 
 follow.  Developing something deeper or heavier actually takes a lot of 
 patience, and a lot of lifetimes.  
 
 seekliberation
 
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@ wrote:
 
  Some people like to say that they are 'spiritual' as opposed to being 
  'Religious', but that is ridiculous as spirituality is the bi-product of 
  Religion.  
  
  Religion is the means and Spirituality is the end! Meditation is a tool of 
  Religion, it's not the Religion itself, much like a steering wheel of a 
  car, you wouldn't say the steering wheel IS the car but it is an 
  instrumental PART Of the car. Like that, TM is a tool of Religion, you may 
  call it a Religious Science as it comes from the *eternal Religion of the 
  Vedas* MMY, the Sanatana Dharma.
  
  Some people would suggest to you perhaps that they mean they are not a part 
  of a 'sectarian' Religion!, but sincere souls that practice their 
  'sectarian' Religion BECOME spiritual just like meditators that practice TM 
  BECOME spiritual.  One may be more effective and some may be mere dogma, 
  this is true, but a sincere soul attracts spirituality in whatever 
  'Religion' or 'means' he/she may practice, IMHO.
  
  In short, TM is a Religious tool of the eternal Religion of the Vedas, 
  This is the greatest blessing of the Vedas, this system of meditation is 
  the greatest blessing of the Vedas, MMY, the Vedas (booklet 1964).
  
  (Generally, you don't BECOME spiritual without practicing some form of 
  Religion, today, most people who claim to be 'spiritual' (as opposed to 
  Religious) *ARE* practicing some from of discipline i.e. RELIGION).
  
  PS They also tend to look down their noses at sectarian Religious people, 
  seeing themselves as being SUPERIOR.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[seekliberation]

 And how does that person 'achieve' great spiritual development?, through a 
 Religion developed by someone who achieved great spiritual development, and 
 on and on it goes, religion leads to spirituality which is the substance of 
 religion. FWIW. :-)

Not necessarily.  Eckhart Tolle, from what I read about him, didn't really 
follow any specific doctrine.  Buddha didn't become enlightened until he left a 
group of people who followed a specific set of rules/guidelines involving 
renunciation and discipline.  There are also many stories within vedic 
literature depicting people becoming enlightened only after they leave the 
establishment they were a part of.  

Also, the word 'achieve' as I used it was not a very good word to use.  The 
word achieve is like music to the ears of the intellect.  It causes the mind to 
think of enlightenment as a step by step process rather than a state of 
consciousness.  

Overall, spirituality and religion are like 2 sides of the same coin.  Neither 
of us can really argue as to which one is the basis of the other.  We could go 
on forever debating that topic and not get anywhere.  

seekliberation

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[wgm4u]

Additionally, the suggestion that one is 'spiritual' and not  Religious, 
generally means one does not follow any 'sectarian' Religion, but some take it 
a step further and suggest that Religion itself doesn't even lead to 
spirituality which is ridiculous.

Life itself leads to spirituality, true religion merely speeds up the progress, 
and a religion with the component of a scientific meditation practice like TM, 
even more, that is all.

Spirituality is the efflorescence of Religion, did not Christ say, The harvest 
is plentiful but the 'laborers' are few? Religion provides the guidelines for 
the 'labor' one must do. Meditation (as one of those labors) is one means (of 
Patanjali's eight) to unfold that spirituality, and what is spirituality? it's 
the manifestation of God like qualities, love, compassion, forgiveness.

Once you achieve 'spirituality' you no longer need Religion! (You don't even 
need your body).

(In Yoga, samadhi is both the end AND the means).

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote:

 Some people like to say that they are 'spiritual' as opposed to being 
 'Religious', but that is ridiculous as spirituality is the bi-product of 
 Religion.  
 
 Religion is the means and Spirituality is the end! Meditation is a tool of 
 Religion, it's not the Religion itself, much like a steering wheel of a car, 
 you wouldn't say the steering wheel IS the car but it is an instrumental PART 
 Of the car. Like that, TM is a tool of Religion, you may call it a Religious 
 Science as it comes from the *eternal Religion of the Vedas* MMY, the 
 Sanatana Dharma.
 
 Some people would suggest to you perhaps that they mean they are not a part 
 of a 'sectarian' Religion!, but sincere souls that practice their 'sectarian' 
 Religion BECOME spiritual just like meditators that practice TM BECOME 
 spiritual.  One may be more effective and some may be mere dogma, this is 
 true, but a sincere soul attracts spirituality in whatever 'Religion' or 
 'means' he/she may practice, IMHO.
 
 In short, TM is a Religious tool of the eternal Religion of the Vedas, This 
 is the greatest blessing of the Vedas, this system of meditation is the 
 greatest blessing of the Vedas, MMY, the Vedas (booklet 1964).
 
 (Generally, you don't BECOME spiritual without practicing some form of 
 Religion, today, most people who claim to be 'spiritual' (as opposed to 
 Religious) *ARE* practicing some from of discipline i.e. RELIGION).
 
 PS They also tend to look down their noses at sectarian Religious people, 
 seeing themselves as being SUPERIOR.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[richardatrwilliamsdotus]

  (Generally, you don't BECOME spiritual without 
  practicing some form of Religion, today, most 
  people who claim to be 'spiritual' (as opposed 
  to Religious) *ARE* practicing some from of 
  discipline i.e. RELIGION).
 
  
Bhairitu: 
 Religion is for sheeple...

Religion is for the 99%; spirituality is for the 1%?

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[martyboi]

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar:

Religion is the banana skin and spirituality is the banana. The misery in the 
world is because we throw away the banana and are holding on to the skin. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

I had not really thought about this. I found an article on about.com 
(http://atheism.about.com/od/religionnonreligion/a/spirituality.htm) that 
discusses this point - it implies this distinction between spirituality and 
religion is mainly an American (US) phenomenon. 

My question here is, if an atheist practices some form of meditation, but 
eschews the philosophical explanation of what is normally considered the 
justification for that practice, is that person spiritual?

A curious aside: one of the meanings of the word spiritual is 'apparitional' - 
resembling or characteristic of a phantom. Enlightenment is sometimes regarded 
as a search for truth while one is under the influence of an illusion, which 
implies the search itself is an aspect of that illusion. If one is pursuing 
enlightenment under the banner of spirituality or religion, is this chosen 
banner from the outset a fraud?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote:

 Some people like to say that they are 'spiritual' as opposed to being 
 'Religious', but that is ridiculous as spirituality is the bi-product of 
 Religion.  
 
 Religion is the means and Spirituality is the end! Meditation is a tool of 
 Religion, it's not the Religion itself, much like a steering wheel of a car, 
 you wouldn't say the steering wheel IS the car but it is an instrumental PART 
 Of the car. Like that, TM is a tool of Religion, you may call it a Religious 
 Science as it comes from the *eternal Religion of the Vedas* MMY, the 
 Sanatana Dharma.
 
 Some people would suggest to you perhaps that they mean they are not a part 
 of a 'sectarian' Religion!, but sincere souls that practice their 'sectarian' 
 Religion BECOME spiritual just like meditators that practice TM BECOME 
 spiritual.  One may be more effective and some may be mere dogma, this is 
 true, but a sincere soul attracts spirituality in whatever 'Religion' or 
 'means' he/she may practice, IMHO.
 
 In short, TM is a Religious tool of the eternal Religion of the Vedas, This 
 is the greatest blessing of the Vedas, this system of meditation is the 
 greatest blessing of the Vedas, MMY, the Vedas (booklet 1964).
 
 (Generally, you don't BECOME spiritual without practicing some form of 
 Religion, today, most people who claim to be 'spiritual' (as opposed to 
 Religious) *ARE* practicing some from of discipline i.e. RELIGION).
 
 PS They also tend to look down their noses at sectarian Religious people, 
 seeing themselves as being SUPERIOR.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, martyboi martyboi@... wrote:

 Sri Sri Ravi Shankar:
 
 Religion is the banana skin and spirituality is the banana. 
 The misery in the world is because we throw away the banana 
 and are holding on to the skin.

Hear hear. Either that or religion is the condom and 
spirituality is the dick. 

Religions that involve a lot of costumes and dress-up
are like French ticklers.

:-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[martyboi]

Dude, is that coffee shop a little smokey this morning? 

Are you saying that religious people are usually dicks?

 Hear hear. Either that or religion is the condom and 
 spirituality is the dick. 
 
 Religions that involve a lot of costumes and dress-up
 are like French ticklers.
 
 :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[wgm4u]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 I had not really thought about this. I found an article on about.com 
 (http://atheism.about.com/od/religionnonreligion/a/spirituality.htm) that 
 discusses this point - it implies this distinction between spirituality and 
 religion is mainly an American (US) phenomenon. 
 
 My question here is, if an atheist practices some form of meditation, but 
 eschews the philosophical explanation of what is normally considered the 
 justification for that practice, is that person spiritual?

Yes, because the net effect of his/her practice is the unfolding of the essence 
of his own soul, which is God, (pure consciousness, Sat-Chit-Ananda) beyond 
thought, beyond mind, which IS spirituality, IMHO.

 
 A curious aside: one of the meanings of the word spiritual is 'apparitional' 
 - resembling or characteristic of a phantom. Enlightenment is sometimes 
 regarded as a search for truth while one is under the influence of an 
 illusion, which implies the search itself is an aspect of that illusion. If 
 one is pursuing enlightenment under the banner of spirituality or religion, 
 is this chosen banner from the outset a fraud?
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@ wrote:
 
  Some people like to say that they are 'spiritual' as opposed to being 
  'Religious', but that is ridiculous as spirituality is the bi-product of 
  Religion.  
  
  Religion is the means and Spirituality is the end! Meditation is a tool of 
  Religion, it's not the Religion itself, much like a steering wheel of a 
  car, you wouldn't say the steering wheel IS the car but it is an 
  instrumental PART Of the car. Like that, TM is a tool of Religion, you may 
  call it a Religious Science as it comes from the *eternal Religion of the 
  Vedas* MMY, the Sanatana Dharma.
  
  Some people would suggest to you perhaps that they mean they are not a part 
  of a 'sectarian' Religion!, but sincere souls that practice their 
  'sectarian' Religion BECOME spiritual just like meditators that practice TM 
  BECOME spiritual.  One may be more effective and some may be mere dogma, 
  this is true, but a sincere soul attracts spirituality in whatever 
  'Religion' or 'means' he/she may practice, IMHO.
  
  In short, TM is a Religious tool of the eternal Religion of the Vedas, 
  This is the greatest blessing of the Vedas, this system of meditation is 
  the greatest blessing of the Vedas, MMY, the Vedas (booklet 1964).
  
  (Generally, you don't BECOME spiritual without practicing some form of 
  Religion, today, most people who claim to be 'spiritual' (as opposed to 
  Religious) *ARE* practicing some from of discipline i.e. RELIGION).
  
  PS They also tend to look down their noses at sectarian Religious people, 
  seeing themselves as being SUPERIOR.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, martyboi martyboi@... wrote:

 Sri Sri Ravi Shankar:
 
 Religion is the banana skin and spirituality is the banana. The
 misery in the world is because we throw away the banana and are
 holding on to the skin.


Or, fixating on the finger pointing at the moon, with no recognition of the 
moon.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[wgm4u]

I think what Turq is trying to say is that ALL of life itself, is Religion, 
either it is poorly practiced Religion or Wisely practiced Religion. 

Because life itself is a form of school and learning (through the experience of 
opposites) whose purpose is to bring all human Beings to the fulfillment of 
their full potential which is total illumination in God Consciousness.

This is the Divine Plan; when man violates the laws of nature he suffers, but 
this suffering has a purpose--growth and progress, when he is in harmony with 
the laws of nature he is happy and his path of evolution is easier.

Sorry Turq, there is no way out of this predicament we find ourselves in, this 
is the Divine Plan for Man.

The whole of creation is set up for the regular and continued evolution of the 
Soul so that each one in the creation may enjoy permanent happiness,  MMY The 
Divine Plan, Page One.



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, martyboi martyboi@... wrote:

 
 Dude, is that coffee shop a little smokey this morning? 
 
 Are you saying that religious people are usually dicks?
 
  Hear hear. Either that or religion is the condom and 
  spirituality is the dick. 
  
  Religions that involve a lot of costumes and dress-up
  are like French ticklers.
  
  :-)
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[obbajeeba]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, martyboi martyboi@ wrote:
 
  Sri Sri Ravi Shankar:
  
  Religion is the banana skin and spirituality is the banana. 
  The misery in the world is because we throw away the banana 
  and are holding on to the skin.
 
 Hear hear. Either that or religion is the condom and 
 spirituality is the dick. 
 
 Religions that involve a lot of costumes and dress-up
 are like French ticklers.
 
 :-)


Turq is on a roll today. LOL. Good lines.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[wgm4u]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@... 
wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, martyboi martyboi@ wrote:
 
  Sri Sri Ravi Shankar:
  
  Religion is the banana skin and spirituality is the banana. The
  misery in the world is because we throw away the banana and are
  holding on to the skin.
 
 
 Or, fixating on the finger pointing at the moon, with no recognition of the 
 moon.

I think it would be wrong to suggest that all Religions are merely the finger 
pointing at the moon, though many do seem to fall into that category. It really 
rests with the sincerity of the individual practicing the Religion.

A sincere Christian may be making more progress than a Siddha in Iowa if he 
truly applies the principles of his Religion, though clearly there are more and 
less effective means to God Realization.

Though what you are saying illustrates what people may mean when they say they 
are Spiritual as opposed to Religious, (I don't think the ardent practitioners 
of these Religious would look upon that comment favorably however).

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote:

 I think what Turq is trying to say is that ALL of life
 itself, is Religion, either it is poorly practiced Religion
 or Wisely practiced Religion.

Au contraire, Pierre. What Turq is trying to say is
that in his opinion religion is petrified spirituality.
Religion is dead; spirituality is still living.

I don't argue such things with people because I think
that's a waste of time, and silly, but I can propose
a question that should resolve the chicken or the egg
issue of religion vs. spirituality once and for all.

Is it possible to have a spiritual experience without
the presence of and outside of the confines of a
religion? Of course it is. Many of the founders of
what later became religions did exactly that.

Therefore spirituality and individual spiritual exper-
ience comes first. Spirituality really is the dick.
The condom is only an accessory.

:-)

   Funny Condoms Sculpture
http://www.wrongdream.com/funny-condoms-sculpture/   
Posted  by admin http://www.wrongdream.com/author/admin/  on Apr 4,
2011 in Crazy Art http://www.wrongdream.com/category/crazy-art/ ,
Weird Stuff http://www.wrongdream.com/category/weird-stuff/  | 0
comments http://www.wrongdream.com/funny-condoms-sculpture/#respond
Condoms have been used for at least 400 years. Since the  nineteenth 
century, they have been one of the most popular methods of 
contraception  in the world. While widely accepted in modern times,
condoms http://www.wonders-world.com/2011/01/funny-condom-slogans.html
have  generated some controversy, primarily over what role they should
play in  sex education classes.

  [550] 
http://www.wrongdream.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/funny-condoms-scul\
ptur00.jpg

  [550] 
http://www.wrongdream.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/funny-condoms-scul\
ptur01.jpg

  [550] 
http://www.wrongdream.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/funny-condoms-scul\
ptur02.jpg

  [550] 
http://www.wrongdream.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/funny-condoms-scul\
ptur03.jpg

  [550] 
http://www.wrongdream.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/funny-condoms-scul\
ptur04.jpg

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, martyboi martyboi@ wrote:
 
 
  Dude, is that coffee shop a little smokey this morning?
 
  Are you saying that religious people are usually dicks?
 
   Hear hear. Either that or religion is the condom and
   spirituality is the dick.
  
   Religions that involve a lot of costumes and dress-up
   are like French ticklers.
  
   :-)
  
 


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote:

 I think what Turq is trying to say is that ALL of life itself, is
Religion, either it is poorly practiced Religion or Wisely practiced
Religion.

 Because life itself is a form of school and learning (through the
experience of opposites) whose purpose is to bring all human Beings to
the fulfillment of their full potential which is total illumination in
God Consciousness.

 This is the Divine Plan; when man violates the laws of nature he
suffers, but this suffering has a purpose--growth and progress, when he
is in harmony with the laws of nature he is happy and his path of
evolution is easier.

 Sorry Turq, there is no way out of this predicament we find ourselves
in, this is the Divine Plan for Man.

 The whole of creation is set up for the regular and continued
evolution of the Soul so that each one in the creation may enjoy
permanent happiness,  MMY The Divine Plan, Page One.



 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, martyboi martyboi@ wrote:
 
 
  Dude, is that coffee shop a little smokey this morning?
 
  Are you saying that religious people are usually dicks?
 
   Hear hear. Either that or religion is the condom and
   spirituality is the dick.
  
   Religions that involve a lot of costumes and dress-up
   are like French ticklers.
  
   :-)
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

'wgm4u' I am quoting from two different posts here (Turq  Xeno). I think you 
are missing something here. I cannot really speak for Turq, but to take a shot, 
what he says is often a lot less than what he has been assumed to have said, 
that is, you have over-interpreted whatever his intent might have been.

And for me you have substituted the same dogma as well. My thesis here is that 
the pursuit of spiritual reality is based on a false premise, that the 
terminology we use for this spirituality racket represents something that is 
real. That we interpret what we are seeking in terms of the illusion that is 
preventing our success in what we think the result is going to be. You used the 
term 'soul' in your response to Turq's comment. Yet in some spiritual 
traditions, this soul is a non-entity. D.T. Suzuki in describing Zen says the 
following:

'Is Zen a religion? It is not a religion in the sense that the term is 
popularly understood; for Zen has no God to worship, no ceremonial rites to 
observe, no future abode to which the dead are destined, and, last of all, Zen 
has no soul whose welfare is to be looked after by somebody else and whose 
immortality is a matter of intense concern with some people. Zen is free from 
all these dogmatic and religious encumbrances.'

Zen is considered a spiritual tradition, yet it lacks the very concepts that 
you are saying to us is what is the case, namely: 'Yes, because the net effect 
of his/her practice is the unfolding of the essence of his own soul, which is 
God, (pure consciousness, Sat-Chit-Ananda) beyond thought, beyond mind, which 
IS spirituality, IMHO.'

A scientist might consider the process of meditation and its results entirely 
in physical terms in which case there are none of these beyond-physical 
concepts employed. We are not approaching anything or discovering our essence, 
we are restructuring our apparatus of experiencing to function in a different 
way than it was before.

There is an interesting quote from Buddhism, Ch'ing Yuan Wei-hsin of the T'ang 
Dynasty in China said of his spiritual journey: 

'Thirty years ago, before I began the study of Chan, I said, Mountains are 
mountains, waters are waters. After I got insight into the truth of Chan 
through the instructions of a good master, I said, Mountains are not 
mountains, waters are not waters. But now, having attained the abode of final 
rest, I say, Mountains are really mountains, waters are really waters.'

This is to say, when we are on a spiritual journey, from the time we get on the 
train until when we arrive at the end, we are not entirely sane. We have a 
mythos on this journey that replaces what we thought before we got the 
enlightenment bug, but maybe it is not any more real than what it replaced.

I do see a distinction between spirituality and religion. Religious types tend 
to be way to serious about their mythos. I tend to associate spirituality with 
a somewhat more relaxed view of the fantasies we employ to goad us on our 
journey. That is part of my mythos. But beware, if I ever become serious about 
it, and think it is really true, your life, O Heretic, might be in grave 
danger. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote:

 I think what Turq is trying to say is that ALL of life itself, is Religion, 
 either it is poorly practiced Religion or Wisely practiced Religion. 
 
 Because life itself is a form of school and learning (through the experience 
 of opposites) whose purpose is to bring all human Beings to the fulfillment 
 of their full potential which is total illumination in God Consciousness.
 
 This is the Divine Plan; when man violates the laws of nature he suffers, but 
 this suffering has a purpose--growth and progress, when he is in harmony with 
 the laws of nature he is happy and his path of evolution is easier.
 
 Sorry Turq, there is no way out of this predicament we find ourselves in, 
 this is the Divine Plan for Man.
 
 The whole of creation is set up for the regular and continued evolution of 
 the Soul so that each one in the creation may enjoy permanent happiness,  
 MMY The Divine Plan, Page One.
 
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  My question here is, if an atheist practices some form of meditation, but 
  eschews the philosophical explanation of what is normally considered the 
  justification for that practice, is that person spiritual?
 
 Yes, because the net effect of his/her practice is the unfolding of the 
 essence of his own soul, which is God, (pure consciousness, Sat-Chit-Ananda) 
 beyond thought, beyond mind, which IS spirituality, IMHO.
 
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[wgm4u]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 'wgm4u' I am quoting from two different posts here (Turq  Xeno). I think you 
 are missing something here. I cannot really speak for Turq, but to take a 
 shot, what he says is often a lot less than what he has been assumed to have 
 said, that is, you have over-interpreted whatever his intent might have been.

Well, that was on purpose. :-)
 
 And for me you have substituted the same dogma as well. My thesis here is 
 that the pursuit of spiritual reality is based on a false premise, that the 
 terminology we use for this spirituality racket represents something that is 
 real. That we interpret what we are seeking in terms of the illusion that is 
 preventing our success in what we think the result is going to be. You used 
 the term 'soul' in your response to Turq's comment. Yet in some spiritual 
 traditions, this soul is a non-entity. D.T. Suzuki in describing Zen says the 
 following:
 
 'Is Zen a religion? It is not a religion in the sense that the term is 
 popularly understood; for Zen has no God to worship, no ceremonial rites to 
 observe, no future abode to which the dead are destined, and, last of all, 
 Zen has no soul whose welfare is to be looked after by somebody else and 
 whose immortality is a matter of intense concern with some people. Zen is 
 free from all these dogmatic and religious encumbrances.'
 
 Zen is considered a spiritual tradition, yet it lacks the very concepts that 
 you are saying to us is what is the case, namely: 'Yes, because the net 
 effect of his/her practice is the unfolding of the essence of his own soul, 
 which is God, (pure consciousness, Sat-Chit-Ananda) beyond thought, beyond 
 mind, which IS spirituality, IMHO.'
 
 A scientist might consider the process of meditation and its results entirely 
 in physical terms in which case there are none of these beyond-physical 
 concepts employed. We are not approaching anything or discovering our 
 essence, we are restructuring our apparatus of experiencing to function in a 
 different way than it was before.
 
 There is an interesting quote from Buddhism, Ch'ing Yuan Wei-hsin of the 
 T'ang Dynasty in China said of his spiritual journey: 
 
 'Thirty years ago, before I began the study of Chan, I said, Mountains are 
 mountains, waters are waters. After I got insight into the truth of Chan 
 through the instructions of a good master, I said, Mountains are not 
 mountains, waters are not waters. But now, having attained the abode of 
 final rest, I say, Mountains are really mountains, waters are really 
 waters.'
 
 This is to say, when we are on a spiritual journey, from the time we get on 
 the train until when we arrive at the end, we are not entirely sane. We have 
 a mythos on this journey that replaces what we thought before we got the 
 enlightenment bug, but maybe it is not any more real than what it replaced.
 
 I do see a distinction between spirituality and religion. Religious types 
 tend to be way to serious about their mythos. I tend to associate 
 spirituality with a somewhat more relaxed view of the fantasies we employ to 
 goad us on our journey. That is part of my mythos. But beware, if I ever 
 become serious about it, and think it is really true, your life, O Heretic, 
 might be in grave danger. 

If the mind could truly live in the *here and now* Religion would not be 
necessary, but that is not the case. It would not be right to deny ignorance 
when one is immersed in it.

In a dream you have dream bodies and dream bullets and believe you can die, but 
upon awaking you realize it was all a dream.  Like that, in this world of 
illusion we have dream Religions which lead us out of a dream  World (MMY calls 
Mithya) and when we awaken we realize it was all just a dream (or lila-shakti, 
the play of nature).

Per your distinction between Religion and Spirituality vis a vis Zen, like I 
said, if the mind could truly live in the *here and now* Religion would not be 
necessary. I think Krishnamurti and more recently that little feller Eckhart 
Tolle are just wishful thinkers.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

Fair enough. Regards Krishnamurti and Tolle. I think Krishnamurti's style of 
communicating his experience to others was largely confusing, though now I get 
what he was saying much better than in years past. Tolle does fare better, and 
is rather charming to listen to, so you get a sense of what he is trying to 
say, by his manner, not necessarily his words, but I do not think he fares much 
better either in getting people to experience that state. I think their problem 
is they just fell into enlightenment, but did not have the experience of 
spending any time working toward that goal, and so have little experience with 
working from within a dream trying to wake up.

I think it is possible to formulate enlightenment in completely non-religious 
terms, but somehow I suspect it would not be attractive to most to put it in 
such terms.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  'wgm4u' I am quoting from two different posts here (Turq  Xeno). I think 
  you are missing something here. I cannot really speak for Turq, but to take 
  a shot, what he says is often a lot less than what he has been assumed to 
  have said, that is, you have over-interpreted whatever his intent might 
  have been.
 
 Well, that was on purpose. :-)
  
  And for me you have substituted the same dogma as well. My thesis here is 
  that the pursuit of spiritual reality is based on a false premise, that the 
  terminology we use for this spirituality racket represents something that 
  is real. That we interpret what we are seeking in terms of the illusion 
  that is preventing our success in what we think the result is going to be. 
  You used the term 'soul' in your response to Turq's comment. Yet in some 
  spiritual traditions, this soul is a non-entity. D.T. Suzuki in describing 
  Zen says the following:
  
  'Is Zen a religion? It is not a religion in the sense that the term is 
  popularly understood; for Zen has no God to worship, no ceremonial rites to 
  observe, no future abode to which the dead are destined, and, last of all, 
  Zen has no soul whose welfare is to be looked after by somebody else and 
  whose immortality is a matter of intense concern with some people. Zen is 
  free from all these dogmatic and religious encumbrances.'
  
  Zen is considered a spiritual tradition, yet it lacks the very concepts 
  that you are saying to us is what is the case, namely: 'Yes, because the 
  net effect of his/her practice is the unfolding of the essence of his own 
  soul, which is God, (pure consciousness, Sat-Chit-Ananda) beyond thought, 
  beyond mind, which IS spirituality, IMHO.'
  
  A scientist might consider the process of meditation and its results 
  entirely in physical terms in which case there are none of these 
  beyond-physical concepts employed. We are not approaching anything or 
  discovering our essence, we are restructuring our apparatus of experiencing 
  to function in a different way than it was before.
  
  There is an interesting quote from Buddhism, Ch'ing Yuan Wei-hsin of the 
  T'ang Dynasty in China said of his spiritual journey: 
  
  'Thirty years ago, before I began the study of Chan, I said, Mountains are 
  mountains, waters are waters. After I got insight into the truth of Chan 
  through the instructions of a good master, I said, Mountains are not 
  mountains, waters are not waters. But now, having attained the abode of 
  final rest, I say, Mountains are really mountains, waters are really 
  waters.'
  
  This is to say, when we are on a spiritual journey, from the time we get on 
  the train until when we arrive at the end, we are not entirely sane. We 
  have a mythos on this journey that replaces what we thought before we got 
  the enlightenment bug, but maybe it is not any more real than what it 
  replaced.
  
  I do see a distinction between spirituality and religion. Religious types 
  tend to be way to serious about their mythos. I tend to associate 
  spirituality with a somewhat more relaxed view of the fantasies we employ 
  to goad us on our journey. That is part of my mythos. But beware, if I ever 
  become serious about it, and think it is really true, your life, O Heretic, 
  might be in grave danger. 
 
 If the mind could truly live in the *here and now* Religion would not be 
 necessary, but that is not the case. It would not be right to deny ignorance 
 when one is immersed in it.
 
 In a dream you have dream bodies and dream bullets and believe you can die, 
 but upon awaking you realize it was all a dream.  Like that, in this world of 
 illusion we have dream Religions which lead us out of a dream  World (MMY 
 calls Mithya) and when we awaken we realize it was all just a dream (or 
 lila-shakti, the play of nature).
 
 Per your distinction between Religion and Spirituality vis a vis Zen, like I 
 said, if the mind could truly live in the *here and now* 

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[martyboi]

Q: Dear Guruji, I have never been a spiritual or a true religious person. How 
can I learn to let go and believe?

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar: You don't have to label yourself- I am spiritual, 
religious person etc. No need for it. Just be natural, beautiful, good human 
being. That's it!

If someone is not a beautiful human being and says, `I am a spiritual person or 
a religious person', what is the use of that? What good he or she is for? Isn't 
it? The purpose of spirituality is to make you a beautiful human being, the 
purpose of religion is to make you a righteous person, connected to the 
universe, to the universal spirit. And that's what spirituality is and that's 
what a simple, natural, normal human being is! Got it? Right, so it is better 
not to label yourself.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Spirituality' is the bi-product of Religion.

[wgm4u]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:
pirituality once and for all.
 
 Is it possible to have a spiritual experience without
 the presence of and outside of the confines of a
 religion? Of course it is. Many of the founders of
 what later became religions did exactly that.

Hypothetically that may be true, but not generally the case. Spirituality is 
the efflorescence of experience. What you are really saying is, life itself 
(which is a Religious School of training) is the means and Spirituality is the 
end. Nothing comes from nothing, spirituality cannot come from nothing.
 
 Therefore spirituality and individual spiritual experience comes first. 

Yes, you can achieve spiritual experiences with out Religion per se, but life 
itself is a Religion, therefore Religion (as a formalized process, or as the 
natural outcome of experience) leads to Spirituality. If one were really 
spiritual to begin with there would be no meaning or purpose to life here on 
earth.

Adam and Eve saw to that, by compromising their life in Paradise for a bowl of 
pottage, as they say. :-) Satan said, You can become as gods, and God said, 
surely you will die, they were both right, but Adam and eve (infant humanity) 
disobeyed (so to speak) and took the plunge (it was all a set up). Life is a 
big drama, Turq, that is all, it's a game that has rules and the reward is 
eternal life, where man finds he is truly made in the image of God, God's 
highest expression/creation. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[Yifu]

http://www.fantasygallery.net/fishel/art_6_ENCHANTED-ENCOUNTER.html

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 
  
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   
Right on, Buck. Incredibly simple isn't it?
   
   
   Yep, take the time. 
   
   The true path is meeting our eyes even now.  Just attend to what is 
   actually going on -but keep it simple and keep it clear.  Just open your 
   wisdom eye and see. -Buck in FF
  
  
  I had an old Quaker friend who would remark, The world is full of 
  wonderful things to see, for those who have the eye to see. 
  
 
 Not I but the world says it: all is one.
 
 -Buck in FF

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:

 When the mind stops talking, one is aware that one is life. One is 
 immersed in it rather than being on the surface, talking about it.
 Paradoxically this enables full participation. With diminution of 
 egocentricity, the joy of freedom and the sheer flow of life sweep 
 one into total surrender. One then stops reacting to life so that it 
 can be enjoyed with serenity.
 
 -Buck in FF
   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[Buck]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:

 When the mind stops talking, one is aware that one is life. One is immersed 
 in it rather than being on the surface, talking about it.
 Paradoxically this enables full participation. With diminution of 
 egocentricity, the joy of freedom and the sheer flow of life sweep one into 
 total surrender. One then stops reacting to life so that it can be enjoyed 
 with serenity.
 
 -Buck in FF



My Old Black Stump


FROM MESSENGER OF PEACE JUNE 1938: About a century ago,
the Baptists of Northern Indiana were holding one of their early
sessions
of the Mississinewa Association. Elder Freeman Taylor was preaching to
a congregation assembled in the forest. Upon the completion of his
sermon, which stressed experimental religion, he left the crude
platform,
which had served as a pulpit, and stepped back toward a tree and a
clump
of bushes. Much to his surprise, he found himself face to face with an
Indian who had been hiding and listening to the preaching. We shall
call
the Indian by an English name, which was Peter Pim, as I am unable to
spell his name in the Indian language.

Peter Pim had left the reservation in search of some ponies, which
had been stolen or had wandered away. Observing the gathering of the
white men in the woods, he crept near, hoping to learn the purpose of
the
pow-wow, wondering if it might concern his race, and if they were
to be
pushed farther toward the setting sun and new hunting ground. Peter
Pim could understand, but could speak only a little English.

As he
listened to the white man speak, he felt a response in his own heart.
No sooner had he met Elder Taylor than he said, You've been to my
black stump! Others of the clergy and brethren gathered near, and
they,
too, believed the Indian was complaining that the whites were
trespassing
on the reservation.

No, Elder, Taylor replied, Your reservation is over there. We are
not trespassing. Again the Indian said, You've been to my old black
stump. Realizing that his broken English would not permit him to
explain, the Indian resorted to an inter-tribal, form of language. He
gathered grass and made a small circle, then, finding a worm, he
placed it
in the center of the circle, which he had made and set fire to the
grass. As
the flame swept about, the worm crawled here and there in an effort to
escape; when finding escape impossible, it curled up in the corner to
die.
Reaching down, the Indian removed the worm from danger, and, holding
it in the hollow of his hand, said, Great Spirit do this for me.
Out from
the Indian village was an old black stump. There had been a time in
his
life when Peter Pim liked fire water, but, as in broken English he
continued with his story, he said, No more like fire water. No like
steal
or make war. Heart heavy. Go alone to old black stump and talk to
Great Spirit.

It was at the old black stump he had prayed and there found relief for
a burdened soul. Heart no more heavy. Burden gone. Thereafter, when
his soul was weary, or joy and gratitude his portion, he crept away
to his
secret altar and place of prayer, the old black stump. With primitive
superstition, he believed he had a secret that none other could ever
know,
but when he heard Elder Taylor tell that morning of the goodness and
mercy of God, he felt surely that there was someone who had been to
my old black stump.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

Right on, Buck. Incredibly simple isn't it?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 When the mind stops talking, one is aware that one is life. One is immersed 
 in it rather than being on the surface, talking about it.
 Paradoxically this enables full participation. With diminution of 
 egocentricity, the joy of freedom and the sheer flow of life sweep one into 
 total surrender. One then stops reacting to life so that it can be enjoyed 
 with serenity.
 
 -Buck in FF

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[Buck]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 Right on, Buck. Incredibly simple isn't it?


Yep, take the time. 

The true path is meeting our eyes even now.  Just attend to what is actually 
going on -but keep it simple and keep it clear.  Just open your wisdom eye and 
see. -Buck in FF
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
 
  When the mind stops talking, one is aware that one is life. One is immersed 
  in it rather than being on the surface, talking about it.
  Paradoxically this enables full participation. With diminution of 
  egocentricity, the joy of freedom and the sheer flow of life sweep one into 
  total surrender. One then stops reacting to life so that it can be enjoyed 
  with serenity.
  
  -Buck in FF

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[Buck]

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  Right on, Buck. Incredibly simple isn't it?
 
 
 Yep, take the time. 
 
 The true path is meeting our eyes even now.  Just attend to what is actually 
 going on -but keep it simple and keep it clear.  Just open your wisdom eye 
 and see. -Buck in FF


I had an old Quaker friend who would remark, The world is full of wonderful 
things to see, for those who have the eye to see. 

http://www.icelandichorse.info/salemfugitiveslaves/louisdoug2.JPG 

  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
  
   When the mind stops talking, one is aware that one is life. One is 
   immersed in it rather than being on the surface, talking about it.
   Paradoxically this enables full participation. With diminution of 
   egocentricity, the joy of freedom and the sheer flow of life sweep one 
   into total surrender. One then stops reacting to life so that it can be 
   enjoyed with serenity.
   
   -Buck in FF
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality

[Buck]

 
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
   Right on, Buck. Incredibly simple isn't it?
  
  
  Yep, take the time. 
  
  The true path is meeting our eyes even now.  Just attend to what is 
  actually going on -but keep it simple and keep it clear.  Just open your 
  wisdom eye and see. -Buck in FF
 
 
 I had an old Quaker friend who would remark, The world is full of wonderful 
 things to see, for those who have the eye to see. 
 

Not I but the world says it: all is one.

-Buck in FF
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
   
When the mind stops talking, one is aware that one is life. One is 
immersed in it rather than being on the surface, talking about it.
Paradoxically this enables full participation. With diminution of 
egocentricity, the joy of freedom and the sheer flow of life sweep one 
into total surrender. One then stops reacting to life so that it can be 
enjoyed with serenity.

-Buck in FF
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Ghetto style

[seventhray1]

All I can say Rav, is that given a choice,  I going to come down on I
might call the Believer side of the equation.  Higher Power is mystery
to me, and one that I am no hurry to solve.  But I am not going to deny
my own experience.  You are ruthless, though oftentimes funny in your
pointed attacks at those you suspect are fascinated by their purely
intellecual approach.  I admire that, although I think you have come off
some of the more ardent personal attacks.  And I think that is useful.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 From my FB note - wanted to summarize all the yogi talk spread over
 several posts. Thank you FFL for making this happen - love ya.

 I spend quite a bit of time on a list which is full of intellectuals
 thoroughly fascinated with their intellects. All through my life I
have
 loved to shock and to shock these intellectuals I used some ghetto
talk
 along with spiritual Indian terms. Why ghetto talk - when I first came
 to the United States I spent some time around housing projects and I
 developed lot of empathy for the suffering of African Americans.
 Needless to say I was exposed to all things good and bad from the
 ghetto.



 Intellect is a very valuable tool in spirituality - I recommend the 3
 V's - Vaairaagya (dispassion from world pleasures),Viveekaa
 (discrimination, to discrimate between the real and the unreal)
 andVichaara (inquiry - what is the truth). The 3V's is the proper way
to
 indulge the intellect, not dry polemics or circular logic. And then
 there are the 3 S's of spirituality - Satsang (company of the wise),
 Seva (service to the Guru/Society, charitable activities) and Sadhana
 (spiritual practices, mantra,tantra, yoga and the like).



 So the intellect should have a use-by date for spiritual progress.
 Intellect is a great utility in the outer (material) world but has
 limitation in the inner (spiritual) world. No wonder the graha that
 represents the intellect is Budha (or Mercury), Budha is a young man
(or
 woman) in the Indian mythology.



 Here's what I had to say to these intellectuals.



 Pun and metaphors ahead - not meant to be taken literally. Any offense
 taken is your responsibility..:-)



 Lot of people suffer from Intellectile Dysfunction Disorder -
 Intellectile dsyfunction disorder is the inability to shake off the
 erection caused by fascination to intellectual discussions. You would
 think naturally that if you indulge in a few times you can get rid of
 the erection but no, the more you indulge the more worse it gets. We
are
 desperately in need of an anti-Viagra for this - my research has shown
 Vaairagyaa (dispassion) helps, in fact the 3V's and the 3S's are of
 great help for all psychological disorders caused by fascination with
 the intellect.



 I'm the gangster yogi of the divine mother doing drive-by's on the
pimps
 (egoistics) of this list. Thepimp (ego) needs to know that there is a
 possibility of breaking the co-dependence on the whore (intellect) and
 life outside the hood (small self).



 The whore (intellect) is very consistent and has its own agenda, to be
a
 pimp (ego) in co-dependent relationship requires no intelligence, no
 effort and zero maturity. The end result is a tremendous
 disssatisfaction and of being used. Whereas the relationship with the
 beloved (Self) is like a roller coaster ride. There are up's and
down's,
 to be in love with a beloved is like a conscious death, the
relationship
 with the beloved is deep and intense, in a real love affair with the
 beloved you completely expose yourself. You are completely vulnerable,
 there are no secrets and there is a great chance of being maniupulated
 and being hurt. However a beloved would never deceive and once you
 learn the trick of making her happy you can be in a blissful orgasm
 (awakening). So the relationship with the beloved needs commitment,
but
 it ends with great sensitivity and maturity. A real yogi is like a
true
 lover, one who is drunk (bliss) on the divine vodka (amrita) and in a
 loving orgasm with the beloved (Self).



 (*Self - as in higher self, god, existence, soul or whatever else you
 want to call it)



 Peace out.



 Your Friendly Divine Mother's Gangsta - Ravi Yogi.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Ghetto style

[Ravi Yogi]

Thank you Steveji. Like I said I wouldn't use the words believers and
non-believers since even the so called Skeptics have some kind of belief
in their lives. Belief in themselves, may be their spouse, kids and
family, belief that the plane they boarded in Fairfield will land in
Amsterdam. In fact belief is an essential ingredient in the functioning
of this world of maaya, that is why I say that these are pseudo skeptics
having their cake and wanting to eat it too. Imagine a person refusing
to believe anything and constantly doubting everything in their daily
life, there would be no joy or celebration and everyone would avoid such
a person. I find it very demeaning to insult people for their belief,
whether it be Maharishi, Mormonism, Liberal or conservative. I believe
if a person has true belief he or she will always be a winner.
So its clear that feminine values like faith, belief, love and
compassion are what we need to develop for our spirituality and thats
what you seem to indicate when you say - Higher Power is mystery to me,
and one that I am no hurry to solve. A beloved waits patiently for her
lover and there is such beauty, love and grace in it and you seem to
recognize that.
You are right that I have been a little crude or harsh in reacting to
people when I feel they are insulting my beloved as I hang around in
the FFL Pub. Rest assured this is something I'm always aware of, I am
not an intellectual, I have never been a superficial person all my life.
I'm very heart centered and intuitive. I don't pay too much attention to
the words, I can easily intuit and feel where one is coming from. Its
definitely possible that I'm wrong sometimes and I took it as a message
from my mother to tone it down when Curtis and you pointed to it.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@...
wrote:


 All I can say Rav, is that given a choice,  I going to come down on I
 might call the Believer side of the equation.  Higher Power is
mystery
 to me, and one that I am no hurry to solve.  But I am not going to
deny
 my own experience.  You are ruthless, though oftentimes funny in your
 pointed attacks at those you suspect are fascinated by their purely
 intellecual approach.  I admire that, although I think you have come
off
 some of the more ardent personal attacks.  And I think that is useful.


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  From my FB note - wanted to summarize all the yogi talk spread over
  several posts. Thank you FFL for making this happen - love ya.
 
  I spend quite a bit of time on a list which is full of intellectuals
  thoroughly fascinated with their intellects. All through my life I
 have
  loved to shock and to shock these intellectuals I used some ghetto
 talk
  along with spiritual Indian terms. Why ghetto talk - when I first
came
  to the United States I spent some time around housing projects and I
  developed lot of empathy for the suffering of African Americans.
  Needless to say I was exposed to all things good and bad from the
  ghetto.
 
 
 
  Intellect is a very valuable tool in spirituality - I recommend the
3
  V's - Vaairaagya (dispassion from world pleasures),Viveekaa
  (discrimination, to discrimate between the real and the unreal)
  andVichaara (inquiry - what is the truth). The 3V's is the proper
way
 to
  indulge the intellect, not dry polemics or circular logic. And then
  there are the 3 S's of spirituality - Satsang (company of the wise),
  Seva (service to the Guru/Society, charitable activities) and
Sadhana
  (spiritual practices, mantra,tantra, yoga and the like).
 
 
 
  So the intellect should have a use-by date for spiritual progress.
  Intellect is a great utility in the outer (material) world but has
  limitation in the inner (spiritual) world. No wonder the graha
that
  represents the intellect is Budha (or Mercury), Budha is a young man
 (or
  woman) in the Indian mythology.
 
 
 
  Here's what I had to say to these intellectuals.
 
 
 
  Pun and metaphors ahead - not meant to be taken literally. Any
offense
  taken is your responsibility..:-)
 
 
 
  Lot of people suffer from Intellectile Dysfunction Disorder -
  Intellectile dsyfunction disorder is the inability to shake off the
  erection caused by fascination to intellectual discussions. You
would
  think naturally that if you indulge in a few times you can get rid
of
  the erection but no, the more you indulge the more worse it gets. We
 are
  desperately in need of an anti-Viagra for this - my research has
shown
  Vaairagyaa (dispassion) helps, in fact the 3V's and the 3S's are of
  great help for all psychological disorders caused by fascination
with
  the intellect.
 
 
 
  I'm the gangster yogi of the divine mother doing drive-by's on the
 pimps
  (egoistics) of this list. Thepimp (ego) needs to know that there is
a
  possibility of breaking the co-dependence on the whore (intellect)
and
  life outside the hood (small self).
 
 
 
  The whore 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[Buck]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 snip
  David's publishing record has taken a kind of downward turn
  of late. Last article I heard of was in a pseudoscience/
  paranormal/UFO journal IIRC.
 
 In fact, what O-J published in the Journal of Scientific
 Exploration was not a study but a response/rebuttal to
 a paper published by anti-TMer Barry Markovsky and his
 colleague E. Sales in a sociology journal that attempted
 to trash the Maharishi Effect study in the Journal of
 Conflict Resolution. The sociology journal had refused to
 publish O-J's response.
 
 That paper is available here (PDF):
 
 http://www.truthabouttm.org/utility/showDocumentFile?objectID=33
 
 Since Vaj has chosen to repeat his lies about the Journal
 of Scientific Exploration, I'll repeat my debunking of
 those lies from a previous post (#235995, from December;
 also see the second part of #235981, on the same topic):
 
 Vaj's dishonesty continues to infect this
 forum. His lies are most egregious when he's
 been caught in a falsehood and is trying to
 exonerate himself, as in this case.
 
 His very deliberate misrepresentations of
 the Journal of Scientific Exploration,
 intended to put TM research in a bad light
 because TM has published one article in the
 journal, are quite directly parallel to the
 misrepresentations of the climate-change
 deniers with regard to the hacked emails. Hard
 up for evidence to support their perspective,
 in both cases they have to resort to inventing
 it--and hope that their audience will be too
 lazy and credulous to check up on them.
 
 Vaj has repeatedly referred to the Journal of
 Scientific Exploration as a UFO journal (or
 UFO journals, to make it sound as though
 TM regularly publishes in many such journals).
 Up till now, he hasn't actually named the
 journal, knowing that if he were to do so and
 anyone were to check up on his claim, they'd
 realize it was a lie.
 
 But apparently he *did* read my latest post
 pointing out that he was lying, or someone
 told him about it, so he figured he'd brazen
 it out by naming the journal and then telling
 a bunch of detailed lies about the nature of
 the journal.
 
 That's a standard technique of malicious
 propagandists: citing what they purport to be
 documentation of their false claims that
 actually doesn't support the claims at all.
 They figure folks won't other to check but
 will just assume that if the propagandist
 provides a citation, it must be because it
 backs up what the propagandist has said.
 
 Which is exactly what Vaj did:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 snip
  The current issue has papers on the Loch
  Ness monster and several UFO papers.
  It's always a hoot to look at when you
  need a good laugh. And of course MUM
  researchers publish there now.
  It looks like they've finally found their
  niche in the scientific community!
  http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal.html
 
 In fact, TM researchers have published there
 *once*. There's no indication whatsoever of a
 trend, contrary to Vaj's knowingly disingenuous
 implication.
 
 And in fact, Vaj has no idea what's in the
 current issue, because its contents aren't
 listed on the Web site.
 
 The latest issue whose contents are listed is
 the third issue for 2008 (the journal is a
 quarterly).
 
 Maybe Vaj was hoping folks wouldn't notice
 if he described the contents of the *first*
 issue listed, published in 1987, and said it
 was the current issue.
 
 And even so he misrepresents the contents:
 there was *one* article on the Loch Ness
 monster and *one* article on UFOs. (Another
 malicious propagandist's trick is to use
 plurals when referring to a single instance.)
 
 Neither paper took a believer's stance. Both
 were scholarly analyses of available materials
 on their topics (the PDFs of the articles are
 available on the page).
 
 The other articles in the first issue: A Brief
 History of the Society for Scientific
 Exploration; Alterations in Recollection
 of Unusual and Unexpected Events; Toward a
 Quantitative Theory of Intellectual Discovery
 (Esp. in Phys.); and Engineering Anomalies
 Research. PDFs for all these are available
 on the page.
 
 The last issue listed for which PDFs are
 available is from 2007. The last issue listed
 containing an article on UFOs is 2006 (and
 that was simply a historical review of the
 information that has accumulated, pro and con.)
 
 But let's look at the titles of the articles in
 the most recent issue listed, the third for 2008:
 
 Unusual Atmospheric Phenomena Observed Near
 Channel Islands, UK, 23 April 2007
 The GCP Event Experiment: Design, Analytical
 Methods, Results
 New Insights into the Links between ESP and
 Geomagnetic Activity
 Phenomenology of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine Use: A
 Thematic Analysis
 Altered Experience Mediates the Relationship
 between Schizo-typy and Mood Disturbance during
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[WillyTex]

Vaj:
 Here's a good article on TM research you may have 
 missed, by award-winning writer Andrew Skolnick:
 
Is this the same Andrew Skolnick that got fired from
one of the scientific research journals recently for
publishing untruths and getting sued by Deepak Chopra?

So, a 'lucid dream' is a dream in which the sleeper is 
aware that he or she is dreaming. From what I've read,
the phenomenon of lucid dreaming has been well 
established by scientific research by Gackenbach
and others, so its existence is well established. The 
prearranged eye-movements in Lucid Dreaming studies 
would preclude the possibility of the same experience 
of people in pain. 

http://www.spiritwatch.ca/an.htm

'Waking Life'
SAMA Screens Film Series: 
QA with film director Richard Linklater
May 11, 7 pm, San Antonio Museum of Art 
http://tinyurl.com/2c7wvgc

[FairfieldLife] Re: spirituality and science

[TurquoiseB]

If I might ask, Buck, who do you think you are talking to?

Could one of the people possibly be the person who asked
some pointed questions to the person who keeps trotting
out the phrase, They just lack spiritual experience 
about his *own* personal spiritual experience?

If so, I'll answer after you do. Until then, I don't 
think we have any basis for discussion of any kind.

Buh-bye.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony...@... wrote:

 Quite a web page. A really nice mailing piece too.  Large 
 presentation spirituality or just science-y marketing and 
 neither legit in your mind?
 
 http://istpp.org/
 
 Just wondering, given some of your strong general aversions 
 to this combination before.  Would you prefer that spirituality 
 and science just stay separate? Or is it that you prefer these 
 people to not be involved in it based on a past performance 
 confusing secular spirituality, transcendentalism, religion, 
 science, and fund-raising?  Is istpp a better or clearer blend 
 of spirituality presentation in a modern world?
 
 just wondering,
 -Buck

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
  
  You are trying to make a case that you can make a low
  level vetting decision and I am not buying it.
 
 Yes, I know. You're using your epistemic humility to
 relieve you of the necessity to do any due diligence,
 because that way you can continue to hint darkly that
 it's all a big scam.

Ahem. If this were true, wouldn't YOU be using 
your epistemic hubris to claim that something 
*you know nothing about* is *not* a scam?

That, after all, is your default position in all
of this -- blindly defending a TM paragon who in
your opinion has been unjustly accused. I'm 
mentioning this because you seem to be -- again 
-- unable to discern your own *posting trends*. 

It's as if in your mind you only leap into these
frays to defend someone when they need defending
out of some noble sense of outraged fairness.
But that's not how it really happens. The *trend* 
that you fail to discern, especially when someone 
calls you on being a TB, is *what* you choose to 
defend. Nine times out of ten it's TM, the TMO, 
Maharishi, or some piece of TM dogma or lore. 

Seems to me that your *reason* for leaping in to
defend David OJ can be argued to have nothing to 
do with some outraged reaction to unfairness on 
Curtis' part. That's just your cover story. It 
seems to me, *based on your posting trends*, that 
the more likely rationale for getting into shit 
like this as often as you do, and trying to kill 
the messenger as often as you do, is that what 
pushes your buttons is, in fact, the hint that 
it's all a scam.

IMO you can't allow that suggestion to pass because 
if it were true YOU are the victim of a scam, and 
have been for decades. 

Defending some researcher out of a sense of 
fairness from Curtis' unfair suggestions 
doesn't, after all, explain why you're still up
at 1:20 in the morning trying to perpetuate an
argument about this. Compulsively defending the 
actions and/or good name of a major figure in
the same cult you belong to from suggestions that 
his science is more scam than science does. 

I'm thinkin' that the thing that really has you
still up arguing at 1:20 in the morning is --
besides an insane desire to beat Curtis, at
*anything* -- is that you intuit that if you 
allow Curtis' scam hints to stand, YOU could 
be perceived as Just Another Stupid Victim of
that scam. And for emotional and ego reasons 
you can't allow that to happen.

Just my opinion. Now you get to present yours.

Try to do so this time without declaring whose
opinion won. That's epistemic hubris, too.
The other posters here get to make up their own
minds...you declaring what they've decided has
nothing whatsoever to do with what they decide.  :-)

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[Vaj]

On Apr 29, 2010, at 2:33 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:


Ahem. If this were true, wouldn't YOU be using
your epistemic hubris to claim that something
*you know nothing about* is *not* a scam?



Ignorance and deception will always find a breeding ground in hidden  
areas of science. Nowhere are such facts as easy to hide as in  
obscure branches of science, like neuroscience. They're simply too  
complex for the general public to have more than just passing  
understanding of.


While TMers are probably excited about the idea of 'witnessing sleep'  
being 'discovered' as the simultaneous presence of theta, alpha and  
delta wave sleep--most are totally unaware that this also happens in  
just normal, non-meditating folks and that it is also an EEG  
signature of people in pain, so as people age, it is more likely they  
will also experience this magical 'witnessing deep sleep' EEG  
pattern. Of course it goes without saying that long-term TMers will  
also, ipso facto, be older and thus more likely to be expressing  
painful, age-related maladies like arthritis, etc. Such vata  
diseases seem common in TMers. A dome meditator here has claimed  
several times that sleep disturbance is so common among long-term  
TMers that many come to the domes to catch up on their sleep!

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
   You are trying to make a case that you can make a low
   level vetting decision and I am not buying it.
  
  Yes, I know. You're using your epistemic humility to
  relieve you of the necessity to do any due diligence,
  because that way you can continue to hint darkly that
  it's all a big scam.
 
 Ahem. If this were true, wouldn't YOU be using 
 your epistemic hubris to claim that something 
 *you know nothing about* is *not* a scam?

Obviously not, because I've done my due diligence, so I
*do* know something about it.

Barry, since you haven't read the exchange, almost any
comment you make about it will be a function of *your*
epistemic hubris. If one of your comments gets something
right, it'll be purely accidental.

Your comment above gets it wrong. What I was referring
to was not the validity of the research cited in the
paper, which I *don't* have any basis to evaluate, but
the credibility of the journal and its editors.

I've made that distinction over and over in the exchange
with Curtis. He gets it. But you haven't read it. You're
not helping Curtis out by inadvertently trying to knock
down straw men you've created because you don't know
what the exchange was about.

 That, after all, is your default position in all
 of this -- blindly defending a TM paragon who in
 your opinion has been unjustly accused.

And if you'd read the exchange you're commenting on,
you'd know the only thing I was defending O-J from
was Curtis's accusation that he'd published in this
journal because he couldn't get the paper published
anywhere else.

Curtis has acknowledged he was in error on this point.
I *quoted* his acknowledgment in the very post you're
commenting on:

  Your most legitimate complaint. i withdraw my suspicions
  that he was shopping this paper around and landed here.

If you had actually *read* my post, you'd know that.
But you weren't interested in anything but Get Judy,
so you look like a horse's ass, again.

 I'm 
 mentioning this because you seem to be -- again 
 -- unable to discern your own *posting trends*.

I know exactly what my posting trends are, thank you
very much. 

 It's as if in your mind you only leap into these
 frays to defend someone when they need defending
 out of some noble sense of outraged fairness.
 But that's not how it really happens. The *trend* 
 that you fail to discern, especially when someone 
 calls you on being a TB, is *what* you choose to 
 defend. Nine times out of ten it's TM, the TMO, 
 Maharishi, or some piece of TM dogma or lore. 
 
 Seems to me that your *reason* for leaping in to
 defend David OJ can be argued to have nothing to 
 do with some outraged reaction to unfairness on 
 Curtis' part. That's just your cover story. It 
 seems to me, *based on your posting trends*, that 
 the more likely rationale for getting into shit 
 like this as often as you do, and trying to kill 
 the messenger as often as you do, is that what 
 pushes your buttons is, in fact, the hint that 
 it's all a scam.

Nope. If you actually read my posts, you'd know that
what I was getting on Curtis about was his hypocrisy
about epistemic humility, of which his comments on
O-J's paper were a particularly egregious example.
TM-related stuff is the area it shows up in most
often here in Curtis's posts but hardly the only area.
This instance was especially blatant, so I chose to
make an example of it.

And if you had actually read the exchange, you'd have
seen just how vigorously I was defending O-J's paper:

   A review paper invited by the journal editors that
   didn't undergo peer review and was published along with
   14 others on the same topic does not qualify as
   impressive in my book.

Which Curtis acknowledged:

  I stand corrected here Judy. I am sorry for saying you
  bought into the paper's credibility.

I have also repeatedly agreed with him that neither he
nor I is in a position to evaluate the research cited
in the paper. Again, you'd know that if you'd read the
exchange.

As to your broader point, *of course* I tend to defend
TM-related stuff from unfair criticism. Most of the
folks here are critics, so I try to provide a little
balance when their criticisms are unfair. That annoys
you, because you want yourself and others to be able
to make unfair criticisms without challenge. That's
why you keep trying to make me into a TB, to discredit
my challenges *without actually addressing them*, just
as you attempt to do in this post.

If you were honest, though, you'd have to acknowledge
that if I'm found challenging unfair criticism of TM
more often than unfair criticism of something or
someone else, it's because so much of the discussion
here has to do with TM.

I haven't done a statistical analysis (nor have you),
but nine times out of ten is most 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:
 
 On Apr 29, 2010, at 2:33 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
 
  Ahem. If this were true, wouldn't YOU be using
  your epistemic hubris to claim that something
  *you know nothing about* is *not* a scam?
 
 Ignorance and deception will always find a breeding ground
 in hidden areas of science. Nowhere are such facts

(Which facts?)

 as easy
 to hide as in obscure branches of science, like neuroscience.
 They're simply too complex for the general public to have
 more than just passing understanding of.

Absolutely correct, far too complex. Which is why I
agreed with Curtis repeatedly on that point, a fact
unknown to either Barry or Vaj, because they haven't
read the exchange.

 While TMers are probably excited about the idea of
 'witnessing sleep' being 'discovered' as the simultaneous
 presence of theta, alpha and delta wave sleep--most are
 totally unaware that this also happens in just normal,
 non-meditating folks and that it is also an EEG  
 signature of people in pain, so as people age, it is more
 likely they will also experience this magical 'witnessing
 deep sleep' EEG pattern.

However, it's *unlikely* that the EEG pattern will be
correlated with subjective reports of witnessing deep
sleep (or in some cases with prearranged eye-movement
signals when they're experiencing it). So it would be
easy to distinguish the experience of pain from the
experience of witnessing.

(I'm giving Vaj the benefit of the doubt that it *is*
the same pattern for the sake of pointing out that
if it were, it would make no difference; the sleep-
witnessing experience would still remain to be
explained--or explained away, as Vaj pretends to have
done, the obvious objection notwithstanding.)

 Of course it goes without saying that long-term TMers 
 will also, ipso facto, be older and thus more likely to
 be expressing painful, age-related maladies like
 arthritis, etc. Such vata diseases seem common in
 TMers.

LOL! Can you say grasping at straws? I knew you could.

 A dome meditator here has claimed  
 several times that sleep disturbance is so common among
 long-term TMers that many come to the domes to catch up
 on their sleep!

And of course we must take his claim as gospel (speaking
of, you know, epistemic humility).

guffaw

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  Judy: And now we've reached the point in the exchange where
   Curtis realizes he has no legitimate ammunition, so
   he starts to make shit up and try to stuff it in my
   mouth, his standard tactic when up against the wall.
   Such integrity.
   
   (Doesn't it ever occur to him that the shit is going
   to splatter right back in his face?)
   
   As he knows, I never suggested I had credentials or
   training in the field. Just the same layperson's
   common sense and ability to use the Internet to do some
   low-level vetting that Curtis has but was too lazy to
   use, pretending his epistemic humility was so profound
   there was no way he could know anything at all about
   the journal's credibility, and that therefore it was
   the height of hubris for Buck to tout the paper.
  
  I did the same searches you did Judy I just lack your
  confidence in my ability to put the information in useful
  context.  I also doubt yours.
 
 I know you aren't stupid, so I have to assume you're
 just disingenuous.
 
 Here's what I was responding to (which you cleverly
 snipped):
 
   I am so impressed with your credentials in this field.
   You are just another person who mistakes intelligence
   for training. Very common in pseudo-science.
 
 See above where I said make shit up and try to stuff it
 in my mouth?
 
 Where exactly did I tout, or even hint at, my credentials 
 or training in this field?

Nowhere.  You are trying to make a case that you can make a low level vetting 
decision and I am not buying it. So we are just arguing about where your lack 
of knowledge comes to play here.


 
 From the start, my point was that you don't *need* any
 credentials or training to do the kind of low-level check
 I did.

Calling it a low level check doesn't improve your actual abilities to undestand 
the authority of the person posting.

 
   Except that Curtis went to a whole lot of trouble to
   try to *discredit* the journal and the paper, getting
   practically everything he said wrong. *That's* where
   a bit of epistemic humility would have done him some
   good, realizing that he needed to read what he was
   commenting on. E.g.:
  
  My comment apply with or without the distinction you
  found between a study and a paper about studies.
 
 That was the least of your errors, true. But you made
 it because you didn't bother to determine what it was
 you were complaining about, instead spending most of
 your time composing the lengthy complaint.

I read as much as I needed to see I didn't have the background to evaluate it.  
Then I checked out the editors and realized I didn't have the background to 
evalute them.

 
 On the other hand, you might want to ask a scientist
 you trust about the relative significance of review
 articles vs. original research studies.
 
 Plus which, you attribute all the conclusions involved
 to O-J, but he was an author of only 9 of the several
 dozen papers whose conclusions he cited in his review.

Big apologies to David for such a sin.

 
   [O-J] must have either been rejected at mainstream
   outlets already or knows it will not fly under more
   rigorous standards.
  
  So you think this was his first choice where to publish
  it?
 
 Again: It was an *invited commentary* (one among 14) 
 specifically on a paper previously published in that
 journal. No other journal is going to extend a mass
 invitation to comment on a paper published in a
 *different* journal. This ain't rocket science, Curtis.
 The first choice question simply doesn't apply.

Your most legitimate complaint.  i withdraw my suspicions that he was shopping 
this paper around and landed here.
 
   As noted, the paper was *invited by the journal editors*;
   and it was a *review article*, not a report of original
   research.
  
  Means nothing to my comments about my lack of ability to
  analyse this paper in teh context of technical fields.
 
 Makes a *huge* difference with regard to your first
 choice issue (which was clearly intended to denigrate
 O-J).

You are right.  My suspicions for this paper were unfounded.

 
 If you can't evaluate assertions about a technical field
 you have no expertise in, second-best is to check out
 the credentials of whoever made the assertions. That's
 done all the time here with regard to, for example,
 critiques of the global warming hypothesis, and it makes
 sense as far as it goes: suspicions about the assertions
 of those without credentials are often well founded.
 
 But if you're going to raise doubts about assertions on
 the basis of the lack of credentials of those making
 them, you'd damn well better make sure you've checked
 them out thoroughly enough to be *sure* they lack
 credentials, instead of simply making up the alleged
 lack as you did.

I'm not sure I deserve this much scolding. I was wrong about it being a 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[Vaj]

On Apr 28, 2010, at 1:23 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote:


 See above where I said make shit up and try to stuff it
 in my mouth?

 Where exactly did I tout, or even hint at, my credentials
 or training in this field?

Nowhere. You are trying to make a case that you can make a low  
level vetting decision and I am not buying it. So we are just  
arguing about where your lack of knowledge comes to play here.



One of the interesting areas where TM researchers/commentators/ 
reviewers often, inevitably, shoot themselves in the foot is in  
their description of higher states of consciousness. David Orme- 
Johnson, really not all that different from other TM/SCI  
researchers, tries to insinuate some superiority to witnessing  
deep sleep, as opposed to lucid dreaming. He (and many other TM  
commentators/researchers) don't seem to be aware of the fact that  
when awareness expands, it expands to ALL spheres of waking, deep  
sleep and dreaming. In other words, if you've truly developed the  
shaksi or witness-consciousness, it doesn't just arbitrarily miss  
the other states. If you awaken witness-consciousness, you will also  
witness the construct of dreaming arise, utterly conscious of the  
whole unfolding dream-deep sleep-waking continuum, not just a piece  
of it.


If these allegedly advanced TMers aren't also lucid dreaming, it  
doesn't sound like they've actually developed a real witness- 
consciousness. Also, if their sleep hasn't diminished considerably  
(four hours or less), something quite easy to judge in a standard  
sleep lab-style sleep study, it's highly unlikely they're in any  
higher state of consciousness at all, but merely hypervigilant from  
over-indoctrination and indiscriminate acceptance of TM/SCI dogmas.


One thing you can count on David O-J for is a good chuckle. As usual:  
he delivers.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[WillyTex]

  You are trying to make a case that you can make a low  
  level vetting decision and I am not buying it. So we 
  are just arguing about where your lack of knowledge 
  comes to play here.
 
Vaj:
 One thing you can count on David O-J for is a good 
 chuckle. As usual: he delivers...

Maybe you could post a review of scientific studies that 
demonstrate 'higher states of consciousness' in which 
'witnessing deep sleep' develops into 'awareness' that
expands into ALL spheres of waking, deep sleep and 
dreaming. That would prove that the 'shaksi' or witness-
consciousness, unfolds the construct of dreaming to an 
utter consciousness of the whole unfolding dream-deep 
sleep-waking continuum.

There must be dozens of standard sleep lab-style sleep 
studies that prove this.

Chuckle

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:
snip
 If these allegedly advanced TMers aren't also lucid dreaming, it  
 doesn't sound like they've actually developed a real witness- 
 consciousness.

Vaj might want to read a paper by Gackenbach, a leading
lucidity researcher (cited frequently in the O-J paper),
on the experience of lucid dreaming among TMers and its
relationship to witnessing:

http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/fromlucid.htm

He also might wish to review the O-J paper itself. Quote
from the first paragraph:

...There exists [sic] discussions of developmental models
of consciousness that include lucid dreaming, witnessing
waking, witnessing dreaming and witnessing deep sleep that
have previously been presented (Alexander et al., 1985;
Alexander, 1988; Alexander et al., 1990; Alexander and
Langer, 1990; Gackenbach, 1991; Travis, 1994; Mason, 1995;
Mason et al., 1997; Travis, 2005). The authors discuss the 
possibility of a continuum of experiences that includes
lucid dreaming, witnessing dreaming and witnessing deep
sleep and their relationship to so-called  higher states
of consciousness

So contrary to Vaj's assertions, the TM researchers do
indeed include lucid dreaming in their model of
consciousness; and TMers do indeed report having lucid
dreams.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... 
wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
snip
[Curtis wrote:]
I am so impressed with your credentials in this field.
You are just another person who mistakes intelligence
for training. Very common in pseudo-science.
  
  See above where I said make shit up and try to stuff it
  in my mouth?
  
  Where exactly did I tout, or even hint at, my credentials 
  or training in this field?
 
 Nowhere.

So what makes you think it's OK to pretend otherwise?

 You are trying to make a case that you can make a low
 level vetting decision and I am not buying it.

Yes, I know. You're using your epistemic humility to
relieve you of the necessity to do any due diligence,
because that way you can continue to hint darkly that
it's all a big scam.

 So we are just arguing about where your lack of
 knowledge comes to play here.

I have no idea what this means.

  From the start, my point was that you don't *need* any
  credentials or training to do the kind of low-level check
  I did.
 
 Calling it a low level check doesn't improve your actual
 abilities to undestand the authority of the person posting.

Non sequitur; and you're continuing to try to put words
in my mouth. I never said it did.

Except that Curtis went to a whole lot of trouble to
try to *discredit* the journal and the paper, getting
practically everything he said wrong. *That's* where
a bit of epistemic humility would have done him some
good, realizing that he needed to read what he was
commenting on. E.g.:
   
   My comment apply with or without the distinction you
   found between a study and a paper about studies.
  
  That was the least of your errors, true. But you made
  it because you didn't bother to determine what it was
  you were complaining about, instead spending most of
  your time composing the lengthy complaint.
 
 I read as much as I needed to see I didn't have the
 background to evaluate it.

And if you'd left it at that, as I keep pointing
out, you'd have been fine. But your error about study
vs. review article got woven into your complaint.

 Then I checked out the editors and realized I didn't
 have the background to evalute them.

And this is just pure bullshit. You needed no background
to determine that they both worked at respected
institutions, one of which was sponsoring the journal, 
and that one of the editors held a very responsible
position at his institution and also had published widely
in his field.

Just on the most basic level, that means they have more
credibility than someone who *doesn't* work at a
respected institution, who *doesn't* hold a responsible
position at that institution and *hasn't* published
widely in his field, and whose journal is funded out of
his own pocket.

If the editors worked at the German equivalent of Podunk
Community College and hadn't ever published anything,
they might still be brilliant editors, but it would be
highly unlikely. By the same token, the editors of this
journal might be complete flakes, but that would *also*
be highly unlikely.

The *likelihood* is that they're both reasonably
respectable, reasonably well-qualified researchers and
editors. To claim you have no basis for making that
kind of evaluation is silly and irresponsible and
intellectually dishonest.

This is what laypersons *do* when they want to have
some idea of a person's credibility. They don't just
throw up their hands and declare themselves
incompetent, and then turn around and insinuate that
*because* they can't determine for certain what the
story is, *therefore* it's most likely scurrilous.

snip
  Again: It was an *invited commentary* (one among 14) 
  specifically on a paper previously published in that
  journal. No other journal is going to extend a mass
  invitation to comment on a paper published in a
  *different* journal. This ain't rocket science, Curtis.
  The first choice question simply doesn't apply.
 
 Your most legitimate complaint.  i withdraw my suspicions
 that he was shopping this paper around and landed here.

Thank you, finally. Why did it take you so long? I 
mentioned this in my first post in this exchange and
every one thereafter. How many rounds have we gone now?

snip
   Neither of us is trained in this field. I have no idea
   what the brain waves the studies found mean.
  
  Perfectly reasonable objection. If you'd stuck to that,
  it wouldn't be a problem.
 
 Oh I give you more credit for finding something...

Have I objected to any of your other lectures to Buck
on similar topics?

Curtis also assumed, without having bothered to check
it out, that because the journal publishes only online
rather than on paper, therefore it couldn't be
legitimate. 
   
   Not true. I pointed out that it had been around for 3
   years.  Since I put up Websites and do not know the guys
   who put it up I have no way to disctinguish this site
   

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[curtisdeltablues]

Judy: And now we've reached the point in the exchange where
 Curtis realizes he has no legitimate ammunition, so
 he starts to make shit up and try to stuff it in my
 mouth, his standard tactic when up against the wall.
 Such integrity.
 
 (Doesn't it ever occur to him that the shit is going
 to splatter right back in his face?)
 
 As he knows, I never suggested I had credentials or
 training in the field. Just the same layperson's
 common sense and ability to use the Internet to do some
 low-level vetting that Curtis has but was too lazy to
 use, pretending his epistemic humility was so profound
 there was no way he could know anything at all about
 the journal's credibility, and that therefore it was
 the height of hubris for Buck to tout the paper.

I did the same searches you did Judy I just lack your confidence in my ability 
to put the information in useful context.  I also doubt yours.

 
 Except that Curtis went to a whole lot of trouble to
 try to *discredit* the journal and the paper, getting
 practically everything he said wrong. *That's* where
 a bit of epistemic humility would have done him some
 good, realizing that he needed to read what he was
 commenting on. E.g.:

My comment apply with or without the distinction you found between a study and 
a paper about studies.
 
 [O-J] must have either been rejected at mainstream
 outlets already or knows it will not fly under more
 rigorous standards.

So you think this was his first choice where to publish it? OK good for you, my 
opinion is probably not.
 
 As noted, the paper was *invited by the journal editors*;
 and it was a *review article*, not a report of original
 research.

Means nothing to my comments about my lack of ability to analyse this paper in 
teh context of technical fields.
 
 And:
 
 I can't rely on my confidence in the peer review process
 concerning David's conclusions either.
 
 The paper wasn't peer-reviewed, since it was an invited
 contribution; and its conclusions were simply a review
 of the conclusions of many previous studies (not all by
 TMers).

OK

 
 It took no training or credentials to come up with
 these facts, just a little attention to the Web site
 and the paper itself (or even just what was posted here
 *about* the paper).
 
 Embarrassing.

Not to me. My points remain the same with or without your distinctions.  
Neither of us is trained in this field. I have no idea what the brain waves the 
studies found mean.

 
 Curtis also assumed, without having bothered to check
 it out, that because the journal publishes only online
 rather than on paper, therefore it couldn't be
 legitimate. 

Not true. I pointed out that it had been around for 3 years.  Since I put up 
Websites and do not know the guys who put it up I have no way to disctinguish 
this site from one I could put up.

True epistemic humility might have led
 him to try to find out what the current status is of
 online scientific publishing. Had he investigated, he'd
 have found out it's the latest thing, considered 
 entirely respectable.

You have missed my point. It is easier to scam with a Website because it costs 
so little. With a 3 year history and not being associated with any hard copy 
journal as an alternative media I have no way of evaluating it. Neither do you.
 
 That fact wouldn't have proved it was a quality journal,
 of course, just that it *could* be--that it publishes
 online doesn't rule out that it's respectable, as Curtis
 had assumed.

I am not claiming that I know it is not respectible. I am saying I don't know 
if it is and it is easy to put up a site so I am suspicious.  
 
 But the fact that the journal is supported by one of
 the most prestigious research universities in Europe,

I don't know this.  I haven't studied which ones are prestigious or not.  And 
even prestigious universities have their nutters so it means nothing to me 
since I am not in this field.

 and the top in Germany--another easily discernible
 fact that Curtis overlooked--suggests that the journal
 is hardly bottom-of-the-barrel trash.

This may be the vanity project of a professeur about to be canned. Your 
assumptions make you an easy mark.

 
 Plus which, both journal editors work for well-
 respected research institutions, and one of them has
 published widely in the field. That isn't anything
 that requires training or credentials to
 determine either. It doesn't mean the editors are
 tops in their field, but again it suggests you can't
 just dismiss them out of hand as devoid of any chops.

I just said I don't know and I am suspicious.  The fact that it is David 
doesn't help.

 
 snip
and I would have to care more than I do to even try.  I
don't mind openly admitting ignorance in this area.
   
   Wow. So you're beating up on Buck for asking about
   material whose credibility *you have no interest in
   even trying to determine*.
   
   Can you say chutzpah? I know you can.
  
  Nice try.  So you think we really respects my opinion
  and 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... 
wrote:

 Judy: And now we've reached the point in the exchange where
  Curtis realizes he has no legitimate ammunition, so
  he starts to make shit up and try to stuff it in my
  mouth, his standard tactic when up against the wall.
  Such integrity.
  
  (Doesn't it ever occur to him that the shit is going
  to splatter right back in his face?)
  
  As he knows, I never suggested I had credentials or
  training in the field. Just the same layperson's
  common sense and ability to use the Internet to do some
  low-level vetting that Curtis has but was too lazy to
  use, pretending his epistemic humility was so profound
  there was no way he could know anything at all about
  the journal's credibility, and that therefore it was
  the height of hubris for Buck to tout the paper.
 
 I did the same searches you did Judy I just lack your
 confidence in my ability to put the information in useful
 context.  I also doubt yours.

I know you aren't stupid, so I have to assume you're
just disingenuous.

Here's what I was responding to (which you cleverly
snipped):

  I am so impressed with your credentials in this field.
  You are just another person who mistakes intelligence
  for training. Very common in pseudo-science.

See above where I said make shit up and try to stuff it
in my mouth?

Where exactly did I tout, or even hint at, my credentials 
or training in this field?

From the start, my point was that you don't *need* any
credentials or training to do the kind of low-level check
I did.

  Except that Curtis went to a whole lot of trouble to
  try to *discredit* the journal and the paper, getting
  practically everything he said wrong. *That's* where
  a bit of epistemic humility would have done him some
  good, realizing that he needed to read what he was
  commenting on. E.g.:
 
 My comment apply with or without the distinction you
 found between a study and a paper about studies.

That was the least of your errors, true. But you made
it because you didn't bother to determine what it was
you were complaining about, instead spending most of
your time composing the lengthy complaint.

On the other hand, you might want to ask a scientist
you trust about the relative significance of review
articles vs. original research studies.

Plus which, you attribute all the conclusions involved
to O-J, but he was an author of only 9 of the several
dozen papers whose conclusions he cited in his review.

  [O-J] must have either been rejected at mainstream
  outlets already or knows it will not fly under more
  rigorous standards.
 
 So you think this was his first choice where to publish
 it?

Again: It was an *invited commentary* (one among 14) 
specifically on a paper previously published in that
journal. No other journal is going to extend a mass
invitation to comment on a paper published in a
*different* journal. This ain't rocket science, Curtis.
The first choice question simply doesn't apply.

  As noted, the paper was *invited by the journal editors*;
  and it was a *review article*, not a report of original
  research.
 
 Means nothing to my comments about my lack of ability to
 analyse this paper in teh context of technical fields.

Makes a *huge* difference with regard to your first
choice issue (which was clearly intended to denigrate
O-J).

If you can't evaluate assertions about a technical field
you have no expertise in, second-best is to check out
the credentials of whoever made the assertions. That's
done all the time here with regard to, for example,
critiques of the global warming hypothesis, and it makes
sense as far as it goes: suspicions about the assertions
of those without credentials are often well founded.

But if you're going to raise doubts about assertions on
the basis of the lack of credentials of those making
them, you'd damn well better make sure you've checked
them out thoroughly enough to be *sure* they lack
credentials, instead of simply making up the alleged
lack as you did.

snip
  It took no training or credentials to come up with
  these facts, just a little attention to the Web site
  and the paper itself (or even just what was posted here
  *about* the paper).
  
  Embarrassing.
 
 Not to me. My points remain the same with or without
 your distinctions.

Some do, some don't, as noted.

 Neither of us is trained in this field. I have no idea
 what the brain waves the studies found mean.

Perfectly reasonable objection. If you'd stuck to that,
it wouldn't be a problem.

  Curtis also assumed, without having bothered to check
  it out, that because the journal publishes only online
  rather than on paper, therefore it couldn't be
  legitimate. 
 
 Not true. I pointed out that it had been around for 3
 years.  Since I put up Websites and do not know the guys
 who put it up I have no way to disctinguish this site
 from one I could put up.

Yes, you do. A Web site you put up is hardly likely to
be sponsored by a 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
   I have no way to evaluate the two German editor's
   background
  
  Yes, you do. You could look them up on the Web, as I did.
  . . .
  Schredl heads the sleep lab at the Central Institute
  of Mental Health in Mannheim 
 
 Means nothing to me. 
 
 and has published five books
 
 Means nothing to me.

What it seems to mean, in the mind of someone 
trying to use it champion someone she's never met
other than finding his name on Google, is If
he's published five books, he's a scientist. So
there. Nanner nanner boo boo.

L. Ron Hubbard published 1084 books; he must be
a scientist, too.

To riff on the old cowboy song Streets Of Laredo:

I can see by your pub stats that you are a scientist
You can see by my pub stats that I'm a scientist, too
Get yourself published and be a scientist, too.

:-)

What I'm fascinated by is that THE CORRECTOR is jump-
ing through all these hoops to seemingly prove the
validity (or at the very least non-bogosity) of a 
study THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO PROVE ANYTHING.

Everyone knew that what TMers call witnessing sleep
and what lucid dreamers experience were different
phenomena, producing different subjective states. That 
is apparent even in OJ's own introduction in the paper. 
So there can have been *no possible surprise* in find-
ing that they produce different types of EEG activity.

So the design concept of the study seems to me to 
have been, Let's compare obvious apples to oranges, 
and then when we discover what everyone -- even apple 
supporters and orange supporters -- knows, that apples 
and oranges are different things, we can try to use 
the study to sell apples. We know from past experience
that our apple TBs will believe anything. To them the
study will 'prove' something, especially if I tack some 
mystical bullshit onto the version I share with them, 
bullshit I wouldn't dare to show to real scientists.

Someone who thinks they can please explain to me what
is inaccurate about my description of the study design
above. The findings of this study are a tremendous
*DUH*. All it proves is that apples are different
from oranges. Yet we have apple TBs, even on this forum,
jumping up and down and celebrating as if the study 
somehow proves the supremacy of apples over oranges.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
I have no way to evaluate the two German editor's
background
   
   Yes, you do. You could look them up on the Web, as I did.
   . . .
   Schredl heads the sleep lab at the Central Institute
   of Mental Health in Mannheim 
  
  Means nothing to me. 
  
  and has published five books
  
  Means nothing to me.
 
  and over 70 peer-reviewed journal articles:
 
 What it seems to mean, in the mind of someone 
 trying to use it champion someone she's never met
 other than finding his name on Google, is If
 he's published five books

And over 70 peer-reviewed journal articles.

, he's a scientist. So
 there. Nanner nanner boo boo.
 
 L. Ron Hubbard published 1084 books; he must be
 a scientist, too.

Hubbard prolly didn't have his books published by
established scientific publishers; nor did he have
over 70 peer-reviewed journal articles published in
respectable scientific journals; nor did he head
a laboratory at a well-known, highly respected
university institute; nor was a scientific journal
of which he was an editor sponsored (i.e., funded
by) the top research university in Germany.

snip
 What I'm fascinated by is that THE CORRECTOR is jump-
 ing through all these hoops to seemingly prove the
 validity (or at the very least non-bogosity) of a 
 study THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO PROVE ANYTHING.

Right! After Curtis had jumped through all kinds of
hoops to discredit the study AS THOUGH IT CLAIMED
TO PROVE ANYTHING.

 Everyone knew that what TMers call witnessing sleep
 and what lucid dreamers experience were different
 phenomena, producing different subjective states. That 
 is apparent even in OJ's own introduction in the paper.

Actually, what the abstract of the paper says is that
because subjective reports of lucid dreaming can easily
be confused with those of witnessing, researchers should
distinguish between the two using EEG measurements.
 
 So there can have been *no possible surprise* in find-
 ing that they produce different types of EEG activity.

Quite probably not. But the paper cites research that
*describes which type of EEG indicates which type of
dreaming experience*. Just assuming the EEGs are
different, in other words, butters no parsnips. You
have to know what the EEG signatures for each *are*
to screen for the two types of dreaming.

 So the design concept of the study seems to me to 
 have been, Let's compare obvious apples to oranges, 
 and then when we discover what everyone -- even apple 
 supporters and orange supporters -- knows, that apples 
 and oranges are different things

But not what color they are or what the texture of
their skin is, in this case.

, we can try to use 
 the study to sell apples. We know from past experience
 that our apple TBs will believe anything. To them the
 study will 'prove' something, especially if I tack some 
 mystical bullshit onto the version I share with them, 
 bullshit I wouldn't dare to show to real scientists.
 
 Someone who thinks they can please explain to me what
 is inaccurate about my description of the study design
 above.

See above. (Although Barry, of course, won't read the
post, even after having requested an explanation.)
(Oh, and he also doesn't know what study design
means.)

 The findings of this study are a tremendous
 *DUH*. All it proves is that apples are different
 from oranges. Yet we have apple TBs, even on this forum,
 jumping up and down and celebrating as if the study 
 somehow proves the supremacy of apples over oranges.

Only one TB is celebrating (Nabby).

What Barry has missed, of course, because he never looked
at the paper itself, nor did he read the exchange between
Curtis and me that he's commenting on, is that the paper
*wasn't a study*. It was a review article citing previous
research published in several dozen journals, not all by
TMers.

Plus which, it did not claim the supremacy of 
witnessing sleep over lucid dreaming, merely explained
how to distinguish them via EEG.

This is the paper that Curtis jumped through so many
hoops trying to discredit, claiming that Orme-Johnson
had published it in this journal (which Curtis also
tried to discredit) because no respectable journal
would accept it. But he crashed and burned because:

(a) he wasn't aware that publication of papers in
online scientific journals is considered perfectly
respectable these days;

(b) he didn't bother to do even the lowest-level
vetting of the journal editors, which would have shown
that one of the two was highly qualified in his field;

(c) he didn't know the journal was sponsored by a wildly
respectable research university;

(d) he didn't realize the paper was *invited* by the
journal editors (along with 14 others on the same
topic); and

(e) like Barry, he didn't bother to read either the
paper or 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
snip
   I don't share your confidence in my ability to evaluate
   the professional credentials of a foreign academic in a
   specialized field of technical research. The context is
   missing because I am not in that field.
  
  You're not as helpless as you would like to pretend.
  Schredl's institution is highly respected (look it up);
  he wouldn't be running its sleep lab if he weren't
  well qualified. And his many papers have been published
  in thoroughly respectable journals. Two of his book
  publishers--Reinhardt and Springer--are old, well-
  established publishers of scientific material.
  
  Erlacher worked with him *at* Mannheim before joining
  the Sport and Sport Science Institute at the University
  of Heidelberg. Heidelberg is, of course, the top German
  university, an *immensely* respected research 
  institution--and it sponsors the journal.
 
 I am so impressed with your credentials in this field.
 You are just another person who mistakes intelligence
 for training.  Very common in pseudo-science.

And now we've reached the point in the exchange where
Curtis realizes he has no legitimate ammunition, so
he starts to make shit up and try to stuff it in my
mouth, his standard tactic when up against the wall.
Such integrity.

(Doesn't it ever occur to him that the shit is going
to splatter right back in his face?)

As he knows, I never suggested I had credentials or
training in the field. Just the same layperson's
common sense and ability to use the Internet to do some
low-level vetting that Curtis has but was too lazy to
use, pretending his epistemic humility was so profound
there was no way he could know anything at all about
the journal's credibility, and that therefore it was
the height of hubris for Buck to tout the paper.

Except that Curtis went to a whole lot of trouble to
try to *discredit* the journal and the paper, getting
practically everything he said wrong. *That's* where
a bit of epistemic humility would have done him some
good, realizing that he needed to read what he was
commenting on. E.g.:

[O-J] must have either been rejected at mainstream
outlets already or knows it will not fly under more
rigorous standards.

As noted, the paper was *invited by the journal editors*;
and it was a *review article*, not a report of original
research.

And:

I can't rely on my confidence in the peer review process
concerning David's conclusions either.

The paper wasn't peer-reviewed, since it was an invited
contribution; and its conclusions were simply a review
of the conclusions of many previous studies (not all by
TMers).

It took no training or credentials to come up with
these facts, just a little attention to the Web site
and the paper itself (or even just what was posted here
*about* the paper).

Embarrassing.

Curtis also assumed, without having bothered to check
it out, that because the journal publishes only online
rather than on paper, therefore it couldn't be
legitimate. True epistemic humility might have led
him to try to find out what the current status is of
online scientific publishing. Had he investigated, he'd
have found out it's the latest thing, considered 
entirely respectable.

That fact wouldn't have proved it was a quality journal,
of course, just that it *could* be--that it publishes
online doesn't rule out that it's respectable, as Curtis
had assumed.

But the fact that the journal is supported by one of
the most prestigious research universities in Europe,
and the top in Germany--another easily discernible
fact that Curtis overlooked--suggests that the journal
is hardly bottom-of-the-barrel trash.

Plus which, both journal editors work for well-
respected research institutions, and one of them has
published widely in the field. That isn't anything
that requires training or credentials to
determine either. It doesn't mean the editors are
tops in their field, but again it suggests you can't
just dismiss them out of hand as devoid of any chops.

snip
   and I would have to care more than I do to even try.  I
   don't mind openly admitting ignorance in this area.
  
  Wow. So you're beating up on Buck for asking about
  material whose credibility *you have no interest in
  even trying to determine*.
  
  Can you say chutzpah? I know you can.
 
 Nice try.  So you think we really respects my opinion
 and was asking about it?  Weak.

Here Curtis does a fancy little dance to avoid dealing
with my point. Buck's attitude is irrelevant. What *is*
relevant is Curtis's attitude: not epistemic humility
but *epistemic laziness* combined with *epistemic
hubris*--not only not caring enough to do one's homework,
but also assuming one doesn't *need* to do that homework
to make pronouncements about the credibility of the
journal and the paper in 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[Vaj]

On Apr 25, 2010, at 11:17 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony...@...  
wrote:



 What say the doubters, quitters and poor in spiritual experience  
here to this?


 Is this research no good too? Just wondering.

First of all what part of spirituality supports putting down people  
who don't see things your way? There is no reason to be a dick,  
we're just talk'n here.


Here are some questions about the research:

Who is trained in this field to evaluate the quality of the actual  
research? I certainly am not. So I have to rely on the peer review  
of the people who published it. Did you even go to their site to  
see WHERE it was published? The International Journal of Dream  
Research is a Website that has been operating for 3 years who lets  
members publish research. I have no way to evaluate the two  
German editor's background and their criteria for choosing research  
to publish is not given.


The question is that why would David coming from a line of early  
research published in mainstream publications with long histories  
choose this one with no reputation and unknown editors in a new  
Website project? And the criteria is that it not be published  
anywhere else which is pretty common so he must have either been  
rejected at mainstream outlets already or knows it will not fly  
under more rigorous standards.


David's publishing record has taken a kind of downward turn of late.  
Last article I heard of was in a pseudoscience/paranormal/UFO journal  
IIRC.


Talk about water seeking it's own level!

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:
snip
 David's publishing record has taken a kind of downward turn
 of late. Last article I heard of was in a pseudoscience/
 paranormal/UFO journal IIRC.

In fact, what O-J published in the Journal of Scientific
Exploration was not a study but a response/rebuttal to
a paper published by anti-TMer Barry Markovsky and his
colleague E. Sales in a sociology journal that attempted
to trash the Maharishi Effect study in the Journal of
Conflict Resolution. The sociology journal had refused to
publish O-J's response.

That paper is available here (PDF):

http://www.truthabouttm.org/utility/showDocumentFile?objectID=33

Since Vaj has chosen to repeat his lies about the Journal
of Scientific Exploration, I'll repeat my debunking of
those lies from a previous post (#235995, from December;
also see the second part of #235981, on the same topic):

Vaj's dishonesty continues to infect this
forum. His lies are most egregious when he's
been caught in a falsehood and is trying to
exonerate himself, as in this case.

His very deliberate misrepresentations of
the Journal of Scientific Exploration,
intended to put TM research in a bad light
because TM has published one article in the
journal, are quite directly parallel to the
misrepresentations of the climate-change
deniers with regard to the hacked emails. Hard
up for evidence to support their perspective,
in both cases they have to resort to inventing
it--and hope that their audience will be too
lazy and credulous to check up on them.

Vaj has repeatedly referred to the Journal of
Scientific Exploration as a UFO journal (or
UFO journals, to make it sound as though
TM regularly publishes in many such journals).
Up till now, he hasn't actually named the
journal, knowing that if he were to do so and
anyone were to check up on his claim, they'd
realize it was a lie.

But apparently he *did* read my latest post
pointing out that he was lying, or someone
told him about it, so he figured he'd brazen
it out by naming the journal and then telling
a bunch of detailed lies about the nature of
the journal.

That's a standard technique of malicious
propagandists: citing what they purport to be
documentation of their false claims that
actually doesn't support the claims at all.
They figure folks won't other to check but
will just assume that if the propagandist
provides a citation, it must be because it
backs up what the propagandist has said.

Which is exactly what Vaj did:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:
snip
 The current issue has papers on the Loch
 Ness monster and several UFO papers.
 It's always a hoot to look at when you
 need a good laugh. And of course MUM
 researchers publish there now.
 It looks like they've finally found their
 niche in the scientific community!
 http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal.html

In fact, TM researchers have published there
*once*. There's no indication whatsoever of a
trend, contrary to Vaj's knowingly disingenuous
implication.

And in fact, Vaj has no idea what's in the
current issue, because its contents aren't
listed on the Web site.

The latest issue whose contents are listed is
the third issue for 2008 (the journal is a
quarterly).

Maybe Vaj was hoping folks wouldn't notice
if he described the contents of the *first*
issue listed, published in 1987, and said it
was the current issue.

And even so he misrepresents the contents:
there was *one* article on the Loch Ness
monster and *one* article on UFOs. (Another
malicious propagandist's trick is to use
plurals when referring to a single instance.)

Neither paper took a believer's stance. Both
were scholarly analyses of available materials
on their topics (the PDFs of the articles are
available on the page).

The other articles in the first issue: A Brief
History of the Society for Scientific
Exploration; Alterations in Recollection
of Unusual and Unexpected Events; Toward a
Quantitative Theory of Intellectual Discovery
(Esp. in Phys.); and Engineering Anomalies
Research. PDFs for all these are available
on the page.

The last issue listed for which PDFs are
available is from 2007. The last issue listed
containing an article on UFOs is 2006 (and
that was simply a historical review of the
information that has accumulated, pro and con.)

But let's look at the titles of the articles in
the most recent issue listed, the third for 2008:

Unusual Atmospheric Phenomena Observed Near
Channel Islands, UK, 23 April 2007
The GCP Event Experiment: Design, Analytical
Methods, Results
New Insights into the Links between ESP and
Geomagnetic Activity
Phenomenology of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine Use: A
Thematic Analysis
Altered Experience Mediates the Relationship
between Schizo-typy and Mood Disturbance during
Shamanic-Like Journeying
Persistence of Past-Life Memories: Study of Adults
Who Claimed in Their Childhood to Remember a
Past Life

Gee, nothing about UFOs or the Loch Ness monster.

In fact, of the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spirituality Indicated Scientifically

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony...@... wrote:

 What say the doubters, quitters and poor in spiritual experience 
 here to this?

What say they TO WHOM?

Possibly to insufferably elitist assholes who 
consider themselves better than those who moved 
on past the spiritual kindergarten they still 
attend? And *while* still attending the spiritual
kindergarten they look down on those who have
graduated from it as quitters, doubters, and 
poor in spiritual experience? If that's how 
you see yourself, Doug, I'll agree with your
assessment and say the following to you.  :-)

 Is this research no good too?  Just wondering.

I'll leave the detailed analysis of the study 
and its design to those who are interested in
those sorts of things. I am not.

I will just point out the introduction added
by whoever posted this, which states that David
OJ included some extra stuff in this summary 
that's not found in the actual paper—notably, 
the fascinating section on 'Knowledge is 
Structured in Consciousness.'

This pretty much answers your question, as far 
as I am concerned. FOR A TB TM AUDIENCE,
David OJ includes a bunch of stuff that he
would be unable to include in a real study, 
one being presented to and assessed by real
scientists.

That kinda reveals it as what it is -- propa-
ganda -- and *sales* propaganda at that. It's 
a tract written for and to True Believers, who
are the only people on the planet who would
buy into the stuff he included. 

As for the research itself, which as I've said
I have no real interest in, a quick skim seems
to indicate that what he proved is that TMers 
witnessing sleep generate one type of EEG 
activity while lucid dreamers generate another. 

DUH. That was known at the beginning. He even
describes the difference in his own paragraph
describing lucid dreaming. Lucid dreamers wake
up in their dreams, are aware that they have
woken up, and can actually manipulate their
dreams. TMers, according to his description,
only wake up to an experience of transcend-
ental consciousness. 

Big whoop. Sounds to me as if the lucid dreamers
are actually accomplishing a bit more in their
dreaming than the TMers.

But David OJ seems to *assume* that the TM 
experience is somehow better, although on my 
quick skim I see no reason presented for WHY 
he believes this. 

The bottom line seems to me to be that the only
thing he has proved is that the experience of 
TMers witnessing sleep is *different* than
that of lucid dreamers. 

What might convince one that the TM experience
is somehow better?

DUH. How about *decades* of indoctrination saying
that the ability to experience TC is the bestest
thing in the whole wide world?

THAT indoctrination is, as far as I can tell, the
only thing that leads him to believe that what his
study indicates that the TMer witnessing sleep
phenomenon is in any way better than lucid 
dreaming. All he's really proved IMO is that the
two are different, which was known from the start.

But I'll leave the nitpicking and the quibbling
about this to those who enjoy that sort of thing.


 paste
 
 Subject: New paper on EEG in TC, CC, and lucid dreaming
 Date: Friday, April 23, 2010, 9:06 PM
 
 
 Hi!  Below is a summary of a paper just published by David Orme-Johnson
 and Lynne Mason on EEG indicators of growing Cosmic Consciousness. 
 David included some extra stuff in this summary that's not found in the
 actual paper—notably, the fascinating section on Knowledge is
 Structured in Consciousness.  Here is a link to this same summary, if
 you'd like to bookmark it: 
 http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/NewStudies/CosmicConsiousne\
 ss/index.cfm
 http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/TMResearch/NewStudies/CosmicConsiousn\
 ess/index.cfm
 
 
 
 
 Cosmic Consciousness and Lucid Dreaming
 Mason LI, Orme-Johnson, DW. Transcendental consciousness wakes up in
 dreaming and deep sleep. International Journal of Dream Research 2010
 3(1): 28-32. PDF http://www.truthabouttm.org/documentFiles/57.pdf?
 http://www.truthabouttm.org/documentFiles/57.pdf?
 
   This paper reviews EEG research supporting Maharishi's model of the
 development of higher states of consciousness. It summarizes the EEG
 evidence for transcendental consciousness during the Transcendental
 Meditation technique, waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, and contrasts
 witnessing sleep with lucid dreaming.
 
   Cosmic Consciousness. Witnessing sleep is the principle indicator of
 the development of cosmic consciousness. It is experienced as
 transcendental consciousness maintained during deep sleep, as silent
 inner awareness at all times.  The EEG evidence supporting the reality
 of witnessing is that people having these experiences exhibit the EEG
 signature of transcendental consciousness, which is theta/alpha (7-9 Hz)
 EEG power and coherence, along with the signature of deep sleep, which
 is delta EEG (1-4 Hz).
 
   Lucid Dreaming. Lucid dreaming, on the other hand, is the experience