Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM Being Special
If TM has failed you, has anything else taken its place and succeeded in whatever it is you are aiming at? Techniques and practices have a lifetime. Like a multi-stage rocket, where the lower stages fall away to get the payload in orbit, at some point spiritual machinations wear thin. But by then one should be close to a significant result. Well, I have done other meditations but I have decided that enlightenment as defined by Marshy and even by the vedas is a bit of a fantasy - so I have no spiritual goal as such except to behave well in life, which my parents taught me anyway so... From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 10:21 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM Being Special --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: Some time ago I posed the question that if, as Marshy always claimed, TM is better, superior to all other meditations, how can that be so, what makes TM special? In addition to being reviled for supposedly setting up a condition which would allow me to take shots at the TMO, I was told that it was not the mantras that are successful, but rather the fantastic instruction on how to use said mantras. Complete horseshit. If that were the case, then you really could use any word as long as you used it the way Marshy told everyone to use his mantras. And we know that ain't right. The mantras are as good as any others but even you true believers have said the mantras are not superior to others, its the WAY they are used. But if its the instruction, then any word should do, so why have the mantras at all? So with TM being special, it has to either be the mantras or the way you use them or a combination - I don't see the instruction as being all that special - its not much different than other meditations including Deepak Chopra's Primordial Sound meditation and others where you are told to just not pay attention to thoughts and bring the awareness back to whatever when you notice you are on a thought. Thus we can see quite clearly that the idea that TM is a superior meditation, or as Marshy put it, the jet plane to enlightenment is complete nonsense, or to be more precise, a lie. Now of course if one believes Mark Landau, then one knows that mantras are repeated to actually receive the blessings of whatever goddess the sound is associated with - in other words its about doing a practice to git something, its about accrual of power, not transcending to gain enlightenment. Oh and Richard W, we all know the blabbity blab blab about all things TM coming from some Buddhist temple or other so no need to repeat it. And I was not setting up a situation to enable me to revile the Movement - I can do that all on my own. As I have said before, I am willing to believe anything, but not without evidence. Thus far, the evidence I have collected has shown me that Marshy was a liar, perhaps well intentioned in the beginning but soon after he left India he allowed himself to be seduced by the blandishments of the ego. The evidence I have also shows me that TM is a decent meditation, but no more special than anything else available and yet most of the claims made for it are false, such as enlightenment accruing from said practice and ability to fly etc, also all claims made of TM Sidhis are false (like world peace). The evidence is that TM has caused many problems on multiple levels for thousands of people, and that thousands of others have ceased the practice due to many reasons. Other evidence is that long term practice doesn't lead to any kind of superlative behavior as demonstrated by the TMO leaders and managers. Given the downside of TM, the evidence is that other meditations are far superior to TM since few of them have the kind of baggage that TM has. If TM has failed you, has anything else taken its place and succeeded in whatever it is you are aiming at? Techniques and practices have a lifetime. Like a multi-stage rocket, where the lower stages fall away to get the payload in orbit, at some point spiritual machinations wear thin. But by then one should be close to a significant result.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TM Being Special
Michael, if you're going to bring this up again, and before reading responses from anyone willing to take the time, relax and open your mind to what you are about to read. No one here is trying to convince you of the efficacy of TM or convert you back to its practice. They're trying to help you move past this and find some peace in your life. More interpersed below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: Some time ago I posed the question that if, as Marshy always claimed, TM is better, superior to all other meditations, how can that be so, what makes TM special? In addition to being reviled for supposedly setting up a condition which would allow me to take shots at the TMO, I was told that it was not the mantras that are successful, but rather the fantastic instruction on how to use said mantras. Complete horseshit. If that were the case, then you really could use any word as long as you used it the way Marshy told everyone to use his mantras. And we know that ain't right. Sorry Michael, but your reasoning above doesn't make sense. The mantras used *aren't* special in that they're just meaningless sounds whose effects are known. They've been around and used for a long, long time. How do you get from that understanding that *any* word can be used? The effortless use of the mantra *is* what made TM different in the worldwide marketplace in the very beginning. There may have been other techniques just as effortless but this was the way that Maharishi chose to *market* his technique and he wasn't lying - it *is* effortless. Now there may be many techniques that advertise their effortlessness either from copying TM or the realization that it is a great marketing ploy. The mantras are as good as any others but even you true believers have said the mantras are not superior to others, its the WAY they are used. But if its the instruction, then any word should do, so why have the mantras at all? Again Michael, your reasoning doesn't make sense. Where is your bridge from mantras not superior to others (as in mantras I assume) to any word should do? So with TM being special, it has to either be the mantras or the way you use them or a combination - I don't see the instruction as being all that special - its not much different than other meditations including Deepak Chopra's Primordial Sound meditation and others where you are told to just not pay attention to thoughts and bring the awareness back to whatever when you notice you are on a thought. In the beginning, TM *was* different, and what made it different, its effortlessness, was copied by others. After all, Chopra was part of the TMO before he branched out on his own so doesn't it make sense that he would have incorporated what was best about TM into his own money-making endeavors? Other techniques may have been effortless also but they don't promote themselves as such. Thus we can see quite clearly that the idea that TM is a superior meditation, or as Marshy put it, the jet plane to enlightenment is complete nonsense, or to be more precise, a lie. I'm sure marketing to the general western masses has a lot of do with these claims. However different strokes for different folks as the saying goes. Now of course if one believes Mark Landau, then one knows that mantras are repeated to actually receive the blessings of whatever goddess the sound is associated with - in other words its about doing a practice to git something, its about accrual of power, not transcending to gain enlightenment. And why can't it be both? What's wrong with gitting something? Oh and Richard W, we all know the blabbity blab blab about all things TM coming from some Buddhist temple or other so no need to repeat it. Michael, the same could be said about your writing. And I was not setting up a situation to enable me to revile the Movement - I can do that all on my own. As I have said before, I am willing to believe anything, but not without evidence. No you're not, Michael. People have tried and what they've presented has fallen on deaf eyes. Of at least, a mind that wasn't open to other ways of thinking. I'm sorry to say this, but Michael, I'm beginning to sense that you're only interested in the dirt about anything that Maharishi and his movement has *ever* done (your recent request for stories about the Vedic Atoms was interpreted by me in this vein). And your thinking and/or belief that Maharishi and his movement did nothing whatsoever of benefit to thousands of people would be the greatest lie of all. Have you ever heard the expression throwing out the baby with the bathwater? Thus far, the evidence I have collected has shown me that Marshy was a liar, perhaps well intentioned in the beginning but soon after he left India he allowed himself to be seduced by the blandishments of the ego. The evidence I have also shows me that
[FairfieldLife] Re: TM Being Special
LG, I was planning to make my own response to this post of Michael's, but I find you've made all the points I was going to make. Well done, thank you. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, laughinggull108 no_reply@... wrote: Michael, if you're going to bring this up again, and before reading responses from anyone willing to take the time, relax and open your mind to what you are about to read. No one here is trying to convince you of the efficacy of TM or convert you back to its practice. They're trying to help you move past this and find some peace in your life. More interpersed below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: Some time ago I posed the question that if, as Marshy always claimed, TM is better, superior to all other meditations, how can that be so, what makes TM special? In addition to being reviled for supposedly setting up a condition which would allow me to take shots at the TMO, I was told that it was not the mantras that are successful, but rather the fantastic instruction on how to use said mantras. Complete horseshit. If that were the case, then you really could use any word as long as you used it the way Marshy told everyone to use his mantras. And we know that ain't right. Sorry Michael, but your reasoning above doesn't make sense. The mantras used *aren't* special in that they're just meaningless sounds whose effects are known. They've been around and used for a long, long time. How do you get from that understanding that *any* word can be used? The effortless use of the mantra *is* what made TM different in the worldwide marketplace in the very beginning. There may have been other techniques just as effortless but this was the way that Maharishi chose to *market* his technique and he wasn't lying - it *is* effortless. Now there may be many techniques that advertise their effortlessness either from copying TM or the realization that it is a great marketing ploy. The mantras are as good as any others but even you true believers have said the mantras are not superior to others, its the WAY they are used. But if its the instruction, then any word should do, so why have the mantras at all? Again Michael, your reasoning doesn't make sense. Where is your bridge from mantras not superior to others (as in mantras I assume) to any word should do? So with TM being special, it has to either be the mantras or the way you use them or a combination - I don't see the instruction as being all that special - its not much different than other meditations including Deepak Chopra's Primordial Sound meditation and others where you are told to just not pay attention to thoughts and bring the awareness back to whatever when you notice you are on a thought. In the beginning, TM *was* different, and what made it different, its effortlessness, was copied by others. After all, Chopra was part of the TMO before he branched out on his own so doesn't it make sense that he would have incorporated what was best about TM into his own money-making endeavors? Other techniques may have been effortless also but they don't promote themselves as such. Thus we can see quite clearly that the idea that TM is a superior meditation, or as Marshy put it, the jet plane to enlightenment is complete nonsense, or to be more precise, a lie. I'm sure marketing to the general western masses has a lot of do with these claims. However different strokes for different folks as the saying goes. Now of course if one believes Mark Landau, then one knows that mantras are repeated to actually receive the blessings of whatever goddess the sound is associated with - in other words its about doing a practice to git something, its about accrual of power, not transcending to gain enlightenment. And why can't it be both? What's wrong with gitting something? Oh and Richard W, we all know the blabbity blab blab about all things TM coming from some Buddhist temple or other so no need to repeat it. Michael, the same could be said about your writing. And I was not setting up a situation to enable me to revile the Movement - I can do that all on my own. As I have said before, I am willing to believe anything, but not without evidence. No you're not, Michael. People have tried and what they've presented has fallen on deaf eyes. Of at least, a mind that wasn't open to other ways of thinking. I'm sorry to say this, but Michael, I'm beginning to sense that you're only interested in the dirt about anything that Maharishi and his movement has *ever* done (your recent request for stories about the Vedic Atoms was interpreted by me in this vein). And your thinking and/or belief that Maharishi and his movement did nothing whatsoever of benefit to thousands of people would be the greatest lie of all. Have you ever
[FairfieldLife] Re: TM Being Special
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: Some time ago I posed the question that if, as Marshy always claimed, TM is better, superior to all other meditations, how can that be so, what makes TM special? In MMY's own words about how TM is taught: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRSvW9Ml9DQ Other evidence is that long term practice doesn't lead to any kind of superlative behavior as demonstrated by the TMO leaders and managers. Given the downside of TM, the evidence is that other meditations are far superior to TM since few of them have the kind of baggage that TM has. Most other organizations that teach meditation aren't designed to scale to the world level, and certainly not during the lifetime of the founder of said organization. That brings its own headaches. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: TM Being Special
I am willing to believe anything, but not without evidence. laughinggull: No you're not, Michael. People have tried and what they've presented has fallen on deaf eyes. Of at least, a mind that wasn't open to other ways of thinking... Who would you believe? A very large group of people standing on the corner, who all said that they saw a 'big blue bus' just go by. Or, Another, very small group of people, standing on the same street corner, who all said that 'no big blue bus' came by.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TM Being Special
Michael Jackson: Richard W, we all know the blabbity blab blab about all things TM coming from some Buddhist temple or other so no need to repeat it... So, let's sum up what we know. Most historians agree that the enlightenment tradition came from the pre-Vedic practices in India - there's no mention of Yoga in the Vedas and there's no mention of any bija mantra usage. The historical Buddha (circa 463 B.C) was the founder of the enlightenment tradition in India. Buddha taught yoga, what Eliade terms introspective 'enstasis'. Yoga was later systematized by Patanjali (circa 200 B.C.). This all explainedin Eliade's definitive book on yoga cited below. According to Eliade, the yoga system is unique to South Asia. Shakya the Muni defined 'enlightenment' as the dispelling of the illusion of the individual soul-monad. Patanjali pretty much agrees with this; Patanjali taught *isolation* of the Purusha from the prakriti by yogic means. Confusion arises from erroneously identifying words, objects, and ideas with one another; knowledge of the cries of all creatures comes through perfect discipline of the distinctions between them (Yoga Sutra 3.17). 'Yoga: Immortality and Freedom' by Mircea Eliade Princeton, Bollengen Foundation Second Edition 1969 Paper: 0-691-01764-6 The standard text on Yoga; scholarly; definitive, by the author of 'Shamanism', The Myth of the Eternal Return, History of Religious Ideas, etc. p. 264
[FairfieldLife] Re: TM Being Special
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: Some time ago I posed the question that if, as Marshy always claimed, TM is better, superior to all other meditations, how can that be so, what makes TM special? In addition to being reviled for supposedly setting up a condition which would allow me to take shots at the TMO, I was told that it was not the mantras that are successful, but rather the fantastic instruction on how to use said mantras. Complete horseshit. If that were the case, then you really could use any word as long as you used it the way Marshy told everyone to use his mantras. And we know that ain't right. The mantras are as good as any others but even you true believers have said the mantras are not superior to others, its the WAY they are used. But if its the instruction, then any word should do, so why have the mantras at all? So with TM being special, it has to either be the mantras or the way you use them or a combination - I don't see the instruction as being all that special - its not much different than other meditations including Deepak Chopra's Primordial Sound meditation and others where you are told to just not pay attention to thoughts and bring the awareness back to whatever when you notice you are on a thought. Thus we can see quite clearly that the idea that TM is a superior meditation, or as Marshy put it, the jet plane to enlightenment is complete nonsense, or to be more precise, a lie. Now of course if one believes Mark Landau, then one knows that mantras are repeated to actually receive the blessings of whatever goddess the sound is associated with - in other words its about doing a practice to git something, its about accrual of power, not transcending to gain enlightenment. Oh and Richard W, we all know the blabbity blab blab about all things TM coming from some Buddhist temple or other so no need to repeat it. And I was not setting up a situation to enable me to revile the Movement - I can do that all on my own. As I have said before, I am willing to believe anything, but not without evidence. Thus far, the evidence I have collected has shown me that Marshy was a liar, perhaps well intentioned in the beginning but soon after he left India he allowed himself to be seduced by the blandishments of the ego. The evidence I have also shows me that TM is a decent meditation, but no more special than anything else available and yet most of the claims made for it are false, such as enlightenment accruing from said practice and ability to fly etc, also all claims made of TM Sidhis are false (like world peace). The evidence is that TM has caused many problems on multiple levels for thousands of people, and that thousands of others have ceased the practice due to many reasons. Other evidence is that long term practice doesn't lead to any kind of superlative behavior as demonstrated by the TMO leaders and managers. Given the downside of TM, the evidence is that other meditations are far superior to TM since few of them have the kind of baggage that TM has. If TM has failed you, has anything else taken its place and succeeded in whatever it is you are aiming at? Techniques and practices have a lifetime. Like a multi-stage rocket, where the lower stages fall away to get the payload in orbit, at some point spiritual machinations wear thin. But by then one should be close to a significant result.
