Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Rick, I just finished the Harry Aalto batgap.com interview. That was good criticism based on experience too. He has an amazing base voice but his perspective by experience was piercing. Janet Sussman who lived in Fairfield for years held weekly living living room satsangs too with folks where her teaching was very much like the way Harri Aalto languages it by virtue of evolving and long experience. Fun to hear it so clearly talked about and advocated for in the same way so directly by two different people in two very different packages. Same thing. In the Unified Field Your friend always, -Buck fleetwood_macncheese Writes: Yeah, I agree with the bit about spiritual experiences being something that a person gets used to, no matter how flashy they may be, initially. Humans are great at assimilating any kind of experience. I find too, that whenever I tried to hold on to any spiritual experience, it went away. Once unbounded awareness is established (while it continues to expand), there is no obstacle to any kind of flashy experience; hang out with angels? why not? visit the inside of the body? OK. and after awhile, its like if a person works at Disneyland and can ride the rides, all they want, any time they want. There are two sides to life, anyway - the spiritual momentum, and character development, aka 'doing the work'. Much more concerned, and interested, in the latter, these days. So, it doesn't matter to me what a person's beliefs are, as much as what kind of a person they are. Beliefs don't count for much. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Thanks for your comments. One of the things that amuses me in this discussion is that two of the participants so far who are on record as having no need to believe in a God are also on record as having had enlightenment experiences. Whereas possibly some of those who think of themselves as believers in God have not. Such an assumption that really serves no useful purpose other than, well, you know.. Clearly belief in God has nothing to do with awakening or being able to have clear, according-to-Maharishi's-definitions periods of enlightenment. It might be helpful to know who you are arguing with on this point. My larger point is that I think that having a belief in God has nothing to do with *anything* other than having Just Another Belief. Such a belief is not necessary to follow a spiritual path, and not having such a belief is no hindrance to one. You do realize that you make this point on a nearly daily basis as though there is someone on the other side of this argument. I mean, I get the impression that people who have so called spiritual experiences may just make a note of them, and then move on. Now, I suppose there are many who benchmark these experiences, but really, it's not anything I much see here. So, maybe your comments are directed to a different audience. Even Jim, who is not bashful about declaring his enlightenment uses his own descriptions. I mean maybe they do end up corresponding somewhat to the experiences you read about in texts, and that MMY has outlined, but growth of spiritual experiences, if they are genuine, come off as being quite fresh, and usually quite confusing, at least at first.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2014 9:35 PM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : Thanks. How would you (and Curtis others) describe Harris in a word or a phrase? I see him referred to as an “atheist”, but from what I’ve read so far, that characterization is very inadequate. My impression of him so far is that everything should stand the test of actual experience, but he’s open to the possibility that experience is not limited to the obvious and mundane. So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to the possibility that God can be experienced. C: Great question. As Richard mentioned, Sam doesn't like to be associated with all the baggage of assumptions the term atheist brings. He feels it is not a good description. But not because he is what you would call an agnostic. One huge misconceptions about atheist thought is that it includes the assertion that I know there is no god. I have had discussions here trying to establish this only to have it pop up again that I am making an assumption that there could not be any type of god. How could anyone know such an absolute thing? Certainly not someone trying to take a position of epistemological humility concerning the assumptions contained in theism. TB: Rick, in my opinion the very question you bring up is off-base. Why or how would anyone want to describe *anyone* in a word or phrase? The very desire to do so assumes that you can pigeonhole a person into a neat little category that can be in *any* sense accurate. Add to this problem the issue of how *both* the words atheist and agnostic have been distorted in popular usage, and I would stay away from both terms completely. Being called an atheist *cannot help but bring up negative connotations* that many people have about those who see no reason to believe in a God. And the term agnostic is almost as bad, because many people MISUSE it the way you did above, Rick. Agnosticism is NOT being open to the possibility that God can be experienced or even being open to the possibility that God exists. That's how a *theist* sees the term agnostic. It really means a-gnosis or not knowing, as in not knowing *anything* for sure. But it's devolved into a set of assumptions held by theists, and its intended purpose is to start an argument/discussion to try to force a supposed atheist into admitting that there is a possibility that there is a God. In other words, as I see it the term agnostic -- as used today -- is just an extension of the theistic argument, and part of their desire/need *TO* argue. I honestly don't know how Harris would react, not having read enough of his writing to have a feel for such things. I know how *I* would react at being called an atheist (especially the way some on this forum use the term, as if it's a negative expletive of some kind) OR an agnostic. I would see the use of EITHER term as IRRELEVANT to any discussion of spiritual experience. I've never needed the concept of God to explain any experience I've ever had or any belief about the nature of existence I've ever entertained, and likely never will. I've *NEVER* believed in any kind of God, and so I have never been tempted to interpret any of the many spiritual experiences I've had in terms of one, or requiring one. To attempt to bring God into the discussion as if it HAS to be there in order to discuss spiritual thinking is to me an indication of limited, cannot-escape-from-the-box-of-one's-own-assumptions thinking. It's what Edg does periodically, and that I bust him for. He seems *incapable* of discussing spiritual experience without defining it in his mind around the concept of God, whereas for me such a concept is completely unnecessary and irrelevant. It's irrelevant for a neuroscientist, too, if they're being true to science and dealing with what can be measured. It's irrelevant for millions of Buddhists, who (like me) have no need to postulate a God. They have spiritual experiences, too -- it's just that they don't need to bring God into the picture to either have them or discuss them. The discussion of spiritual experience ISN'T ABOUT GOD. It's about EXPERIENCE. To pretend that such discussions have to revolve around the existence or non-existence of God is -- to me -- missing the point. As many non-theists have suggested when dealing with argumentative theists, What would CHANGE about the world you see around you if it turned out that God does not exist. The answer that almost any thinking person has to come up with is Absolutely nothing. It would continue to be what it is. My point is that this is equally true with regard to spiritual experience. Take the concept of God away, and it's *STILL* spiritual experience. The difference between the atheist and the agnostic
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
turq, the term *spiritual experience* not only contains the word experience. It also contains the word spiritual which pertains to spirit and thus for many has to do with God. As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. And if the concept of God would not change one's experience of the world, then I'm thinking that accepting it and rejecting it are pretty similar mental functions. Finally, about anyone describing anyone with a word or phrase, all I can do is sign off as *gullible cultist* which is how you recently described me! gc (-: On Thursday, May 8, 2014 1:55 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2014 9:35 PM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : Thanks. How would you (and Curtis others) describe Harris in a word or a phrase? I see him referred to as an “atheist”, but from what I’ve read so far, that characterization is very inadequate. My impression of him so far is that everything should stand the test of actual experience, but he’s open to the possibility that experience is not limited to the obvious and mundane. So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to the possibility that God can be experienced. C: Great question. As Richard mentioned, Sam doesn't like to be associated with all the baggage of assumptions the term atheist brings. He feels it is not a good description. But not because he is what you would call an agnostic. One huge misconceptions about atheist thought is that it includes the assertion that I know there is no god. I have had discussions here trying to establish this only to have it pop up again that I am making an assumption that there could not be any type of god. How could anyone know such an absolute thing? Certainly not someone trying to take a position of epistemological humility concerning the assumptions contained in theism. TB: Rick, in my opinion the very question you bring up is off-base. Why or how would anyone want to describe *anyone* in a word or phrase? The very desire to do so assumes that you can pigeonhole a person into a neat little category that can be in *any* sense accurate. Add to this problem the issue of how *both* the words atheist and agnostic have been distorted in popular usage, and I would stay away from both terms completely. Being called an atheist *cannot help but bring up negative connotations* that many people have about those who see no reason to believe in a God. And the term agnostic is almost as bad, because many people MISUSE it the way you did above, Rick. Agnosticism is NOT being open to the possibility that God can be experienced or even being open to the possibility that God exists. That's how a *theist* sees the term agnostic. It really means a-gnosis or not knowing, as in not knowing *anything* for sure. But it's devolved into a set of assumptions held by theists, and its intended purpose is to start an argument/discussion to try to force a supposed atheist into admitting that there is a possibility that there is a God. In other words, as I see it the term agnostic -- as used today -- is just an extension of the theistic argument, and part of their desire/need *TO* argue. I honestly don't know how Harris would react, not having read enough of his writing to have a feel for such things. I know how *I* would react at being called an atheist (especially the way some on this forum use the term, as if it's a negative expletive of some kind) OR an agnostic. I would see the use of EITHER term as IRRELEVANT to any discussion of spiritual experience. I've never needed the concept of God to explain any experience I've ever had or any belief about the nature of existence I've ever entertained, and likely never will. I've *NEVER* believed in any kind of God, and so I have never been tempted to interpret any of the many spiritual experiences I've had in terms of one, or requiring one. To attempt to bring God into the discussion as if it HAS to be there in order to discuss spiritual thinking is to me an indication of limited, cannot-escape-from-the-box-of-one's-own-assumptions thinking. It's what Edg does periodically, and that I bust him for. He seems *incapable* of discussing spiritual experience without defining it in his mind around the concept of God, whereas for me such a concept is completely unnecessary and irrelevant. It's irrelevant for a neuroscientist, too, if they're being true to science and dealing with what can be measured. It's irrelevant for millions of Buddhists, who (like me) have no need to postulate a God. They have spiritual experiences, too -- it's just
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris turq, the term *spiritual experience* not only contains the word experience. It also contains the word spiritual which pertains to spirit and thus for many has to do with God. My point, Share, is that the term spiritual doesn't *have* to have anything to do with God. It doesn't for me, for Sam Harris, and for millions of Buddhists. Apples and oranges. Experience is experience, and belief in a God is something entirely different. If you or other believers are *unable* to separate your spiritual experiences from your beliefs and how they drive you to *interpret* the experiences, that would seem to me to be *your* problem, not mine or Sam Harris'. We have *no problem* interpreting experiences we consider spiritual without the need to postulate a God, and we understandably bristle at believers' attempts to force us to introduce a concept we have no need of (God) into a life already filled with interesting spiritual experiences. In other words, we do not have to restrict ourselves to your limitations. As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. And if the concept of God would not change one's experience of the world, then I'm thinking that accepting it and rejecting it are pretty similar mental functions. If so, why do so many believers get their panties in such a twist over the mere fact that others have no need to believe the things they do? Finally, about anyone describing anyone with a word or phrase, all I can do is sign off as *gullible cultist* which is how you recently described me! gc (-: That is how you were *acting*, not who you are. Rick was searching for a word or phrase to describe who and what Sam Harris *is*. Not the same thing at all. :-) On Thursday, May 8, 2014 1:55 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2014 9:35 PM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : Thanks. How would you (and Curtis others) describe Harris in a word or a phrase? I see him referred to as an “atheist”, but from what I’ve read so far, that characterization is very inadequate. My impression of him so far is that everything should stand the test of actual experience, but he’s open to the possibility that experience is not limited to the obvious and mundane. So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to the possibility that God can be experienced. C: Great question. As Richard mentioned, Sam doesn't like to be associated with all the baggage of assumptions the term atheist brings. He feels it is not a good description. But not because he is what you would call an agnostic. One huge misconceptions about atheist thought is that it includes the assertion that I know there is no god. I have had discussions here trying to establish this only to have it pop up again that I am making an assumption that there could not be any type of god. How could anyone know such an absolute thing? Certainly not someone trying to take a position of epistemological humility concerning the assumptions contained in theism. TB: Rick, in my opinion the very question you bring up is off-base. Why or how would anyone want to describe *anyone* in a word or phrase? The very desire to do so assumes that you can pigeonhole a person into a neat little category that can be in *any* sense accurate. Add to this problem the issue of how *both* the words atheist and agnostic have been distorted in popular usage, and I would stay away from both terms completely. Being called an atheist *cannot help but bring up negative connotations* that many people have about those who see no reason to believe in a God. And the term agnostic is almost as bad, because many people MISUSE it the way you did above, Rick. Agnosticism is NOT being open to the possibility that God can be experienced or even being open to the possibility that God exists. That's how a *theist* sees the term agnostic. It really means a-gnosis or not knowing, as in not knowing *anything* for sure. But it's devolved into a set of assumptions held by theists, and its intended purpose
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Share Long sharelong60@... As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. I think the growth of wisdom is a desirable thing, and something that takes place over a lifetime. I would call it the growth of spirituality. There may be instances of flash, or maybe not. I really don't have a problem putting such experiences in the good column, and rating that higher than a life spent with no self reflection. YMMV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Share Long sharelong60@... As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. Good God, no. God forbid. I think the growth of wisdom is a desirable thing, and something that takes place over a lifetime. I would call it the growth of spirituality. There may be instances of flash, or maybe not. I really don't have a problem putting such experiences in the good column, and rating that higher than a life spent with no self reflection. YMMV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
On 5/8/2014 1:52 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: It's irrelevant for millions of Buddhists, who (like me) have no need to postulate a God. Traditionally Buddhists throughout the Buddhist world consider that the universe contains more beings in it than are normally visible to humans. Buddhists have no objection to the existence of the Hindu gods or devas. Nevertheless, Buddhists can't take refuge in the gods because the gods are not Buddha. That is, they are not enlightened. All the Hindu gods, for all their power, are not the final truth of things. Power does not necessarily entail insight, and for Buddhists the gods do not have the liberating enlightenment. None of this entails that the gods do not exist or that the gods cannot exert a powerful influence over our lives. Thus, the Buddhist has no problem with the gods. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
On 5/8/2014 1:52 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: The discussion of spiritual experience ISN'T ABOUT GOD. You are not even making any sense. The discussion of /*spiritual experiences*/ assumes the belief in a /*spirit world or spirits*/. For someone who ascribes to Advaita Vedanta, the /*spirit is transcendental*/ to the material world and to the Hindu gods. All the Upanishadic thinkers were transcendentalists. For them, /God is the Transcendental Person/, Brahman or Purusha. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
On 5/8/2014 6:30 AM, Share Long wrote: turq, the term *spiritual experience* not only contains the word experience. It also contains the word spiritual which pertains to spirit and thus for many has to do with God. Not sure if TB can understand this subtle observation,Share - he seems to be pretty much locked into the atheist is better mind-set, not realizing that this is supposedly /*a spiritual forum*/. Maybe it's just the sake of winning a religious debate and maybe he is on a spiritual path. It sounds complicated to me, but apparently the */TB believes in buddhas, karma, and reincarnation. /*Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
On 5/8/2014 6:55 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: It also contains the word spiritual which pertains to spirit and thus for many has to do with God. My point, Share, is that the term spiritual doesn't *have* to have anything to do with God. Now this is really funny! /The word spiritual doesn't have anything to do with the spirit/. What language are you writng in, Turq? This must be word-game, mind-game. Go figure. Definition of the word spiritual: 1. /*spiritual*/ - adjective, from Middle English and Anglo-French and Late Latin; /espirital/; spiritual, from Late Latin /spiritualis/, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from /spiritus/. 1. a transcendent dimension within human experience. 2. of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena. 3. of or relating to a person's spirit. 4. of or relating to religion or religious beliefs. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Share Long sharelong60@... As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. S: I think the growth of wisdom is a desirable thing, and something that takes place over a lifetime. C: I like this connection of wisdom with aging because for me, most of what I thought I could get through meditation just came with growing up and then older. I am not sure how long a list of things I would consider as wisdom would be. I might sum it up with knowing which battles to pick and which to ignore, and not expecting people to act differently than they do. I might throw in learning that you really can't tell a book by its cover with people, so you have to give someone a shot to show up as their best selves. But if they don't the next time it is on me, not them cuz people suck at changing even when they want to. I have learned that the older I get the older the people I need to give a break for being young gets. Right now I am up to kids in their 30's power zone. I appreciate that they are feeling their oats a bit and feel so much smarter than they were in their 20's that they believe they are wise now. Full of piss and vinegar! They cannot know what they don't know yet. I suspect people in their 80's view me this way which cracks me up. I don't know if I could connect any of these revelations with any meditation. I believe that meditation can slow you down a bit so you might notice these things, but any connection between a state of mind from meditation and what I would consider wisdom seem like a stretch. It is such a basic assumptions in spiritual traditions that this connections exists. For me it all happens in the experiences of being humbled through living that has had the biggest effect on me giving my fellow man a break for acting according to their nature. After a decades of pissing into the wind you learn to turn around first. Saves on the dry cleaning bills. I would call it the growth of spirituality. There may be instances of flash, or maybe not. I really don't have a problem putting such experiences in the good column, and rating that higher than a life spent with no self reflection. YMMV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
On 5/8/2014 8:49 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. Good God, no. God forbid. OMG! Are you thinking Barry has had no spiritual experiences? Barry probably sets a very high bar for that kind of thing, since he said Rama was /just another guy that could do cool things with light. /For most normal people, witnessing someone levitate off the desert floor and then instantly appear up on top of a nearby mountain, would sure qualify as some kind of supernatural event! Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
I include the insights of atheism as a spiritual understanding if you equate spiritual growth as a growth of an awareness of truth. My interest in discovering what is real in life is no different now than it was when I was into the Maharishi deal. Same motivation, just different content. Some spiritually minded people can't imagine that embracing atheism can me almost the same process they have for embracing their own POV on the world. It is, and can come from just as innocent and positive a place in a person as anyone who believes that their subjective experiences are of one of the gods.I am always struck by how similar my process and intentions are with people who are way into spirituality. I have more in common with them than people who go through life without giving such matters much thought.Yet our conclusions about the meaning of such experiences is almost 180 degrees opposite! Our criteria for what we can be confident in as knowledge is very different but the goal is similar. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/8/2014 6:30 AM, Share Long wrote: turq, the term *spiritual experience* not only contains the word experience. It also contains the word spiritual which pertains to spirit and thus for many has to do with God. Not sure if TB can understand this subtle observation,Share - he seems to be pretty much locked into the atheist is better mind-set, not realizing that this is supposedly a spiritual forum. Maybe it's just the sake of winning a religious debate and maybe he is on a spiritual path. It sounds complicated to me, but apparently the TB believes in buddhas, karma, and reincarnation. Go figure. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Spirit means breath, or wind (the latter of which Richard has plenty). I agree with Barry here. Spiritual experience is about the nature of experience, about that rather mysterious quality called consciousness. My spiritual experience evolved entirely in the absence of a belief in something called 'god', or of spirits. While others around me used the term a lot, it was nothing to me. The word is a conceptual box. At the same time I realise that most people do seem to have trouble pursuing spiritual goals without some kind of specific handhold to grab onto. At some point you have to let go of everything you think is real. The problem is these spiritual terms are not truths, they are rather strategies to unhook the mind from identification. However such strategies are developed in a particular time and place, a particular culture and language, and once they have been around a while, they tend to lose their potency through the accumulation of ongoing interpretation. Transcendence is not real, it is a description that is part of a strategy to lead the mind out of a particular box. If we say there is something like unity, that everything is somehow 'one', there cannot be separate realities where some aspect of reality is, in essence, different from some other aspect, and that would mean the separation of the 'world' and 'transcendent' is a false dichotomy, part of a trick to get you to experience beyond the obvious character of the meaning of the words. Once what you think is transcendent becomes a familiar experience, you find it is not transcendent at all, it had always been what you are and everything is, and at that point you can ditch the concept. If you cannot do that, progress to a unified experience grinds to a halt as the mind continues to remain identified with the meaning of the words and their supposed significance. There are words that are very concrete like 'concrete', 'water', 'food', etc., that directly represent things. Spiritual language is actually very vague, most of its words are borrowed from the vocabulary of concrete representative words, but they are used in special abstract senses, and most of the concepts are words defined in terms of other words. For example 'the light of life' in the New Testament really just means consciousness, but nowadays it is pretty hard to get people to interpret it that way. Because the mind gets identified with the meaning and significance of thoughts, it creates an imaginary world that dominates primary direct experience. The strategy of spiritual language is to create another imaginary world to wean the mind off its primary obsession, but that second imaginary world is used in conjunction with various other strategies such as meditation, being in silence, etc., in the hope that identification in general at some point cracks and falls away. The thorn to remove a thorn strategy is a tricky one, because you are trying to break an illusion with another one. When the first thorn is removed and tossed aside, what do you do with the second one? You toss that aside as well. What good is another thorn stuck in your flesh. But as we can see, this does not happen very often; the second illusion simply supplants the first one, and delusion continues. Barry makes perfect sense here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/8/2014 1:52 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: The discussion of spiritual experience ISN'T ABOUT GOD. You are not even making any sense. The discussion of spiritual experiences assumes the belief in a spirit world or spirits. For someone who ascribes to Advaita Vedanta, the spirit is transcendental to the material world and to the Hindu gods. All the Upanishadic thinkers were transcendentalists. For them, God is the Transcendental Person, Brahman or Purusha.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
From: anartax...@yahoo.com anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris snip Barry makes perfect sense here. Well, that's a first. :-) Careful, or a few people here will pile onto you for saying such a heretical thing. But thanks for saying it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/8/2014 6:55 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: It also contains the word spiritual which pertains to spirit and thus for many has to do with God. My point, Share, is that the term spiritual doesn't *have* to have anything to do with God. Now this is really funny! The word spiritual doesn't have anything to do with the spirit. What language are you writng in, Turq? This must be word-game, mind-game. Go figure. Definition of the word spiritual: 1. spiritual - adjective, from Middle English and Anglo-French and Late Latin; espirital; spiritual, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus. 1. a transcendent dimension within human experience. 2. of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena. 3. of or relating to a person's spirit. 4. of or relating to religion or religious beliefs. Bawee likes to create his own reality, his own meanings and definitions - especially if he thinks his made-up-Bawee-world slant on things makes him look like the independent thinker. Of course, all he is showing us is how narrow and cemented he is in his hard-held beliefs. We won't let him know this though, it will be our secret. I just hate to see a grown man cry when they realize the truth. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Share Long sharelong60@... As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. S: I think the growth of wisdom is a desirable thing, and something that takes place over a lifetime. C: I like this connection of wisdom with aging because for me, most of what I thought I could get through meditation just came with growing up and then older. I am not sure how long a list of things I would consider as wisdom would be. I might sum it up with knowing which battles to pick and which to ignore, and not expecting people to act differently than they do. I might throw in learning that you really can't tell a book by its cover with people, so you have to give someone a shot to show up as their best selves. But if they don't the next time it is on me, not them cuz people suck at changing even when they want to. I have learned that the older I get the older the people I need to give a break for being young gets. Right now I am up to kids in their 30's power zone. I appreciate that they are feeling their oats a bit and feel so much smarter than they were in their 20's that they believe they are wise now. Full of piss and vinegar! They cannot know what they don't know yet. I suspect people in their 80's view me this way which cracks me up. I don't know if I could connect any of these revelations with any meditation. I believe that meditation can slow you down a bit so you might notice these things, but any connection between a state of mind from meditation and what I would consider wisdom seem like a stretch. It is such a basic assumptions in spiritual traditions that this connections exists. For me it all happens in the experiences of being humbled through living that has had the biggest effect on me giving my fellow man a break for acting according to their nature. After a decades of pissing into the wind you learn to turn around first. Saves on the dry cleaning bills. Curtis, I may be wrong and I may be presumptuous in saying so but my sense, in reading your recent posts, is that in the last year - maybe through the experiences with your aging father, maybe not - that you have learned some very useful and revelatory things about life and about yourself. I can relate to much of what you say in this post, especially your last paragraph. I would call it the growth of spirituality. There may be instances of flash, or maybe not. I really don't have a problem putting such experiences in the good column, and rating that higher than a life spent with no self reflection. YMMV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/8/2014 8:49 AM, awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... wrote: As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. Good God, no. God forbid. OMG! Are you thinking Barry has had no spiritual experiences? Barry probably sets a very high bar for that kind of thing, since he said Rama was just another guy that could do cool things with light. For most normal people, witnessing someone levitate off the desert floor and then instantly appear up on top of a nearby mountain, would sure qualify as some kind of supernatural event! Go figure. Ah, super natural perhaps. But having anything to do with this upstart, smart alecky punk called God? NEVER! This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : Curtis, I may be wrong and I may be presumptuous in saying so but my sense, in reading your recent posts, is that in the last year - maybe through the experiences with your aging father, maybe not - that you have learned some very useful and revelatory things about life and about yourself. I can relate to much of what you say in this post, especially your last paragraph. C: I appreciate the feel of your post Ann. The crushing confrontation with not only mortality, but the ungraceful way in which are capacities diminish before death has been going on for years with my Dad. Although each year sucks more, I'm not sure this is a cause for anything you are noticing in my writing. I would hope that each year brings me a batch of revelatory things about my life and hope the same for you. I've been doing more classroom gigs where I get deeper into poor kid's lives this last year. Confronting the reality of how little I can do in the face of their environment at home has certainly added a few more wrinkles of concern on my face and caused me to ruminate about some of the things I said in my post. These kids hate school vacations, imagine that! Less food, more chaos, fewer encouraging words at home, so what is good about Spring break? I grew up loving the freedom of any break from school, so it is a real wake up call about how different my life is with that background. So I'm not sure if what you are seeing is just another side of me that is coming out in what I choose to write about lately, or something different in me, but your paying any attention to that detail is kind in itself and thanks for that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Share Long sharelong60@... As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. S: I think the growth of wisdom is a desirable thing, and something that takes place over a lifetime. C: I like this connection of wisdom with aging because for me, most of what I thought I could get through meditation just came with growing up and then older. I am not sure how long a list of things I would consider as wisdom would be. I might sum it up with knowing which battles to pick and which to ignore, and not expecting people to act differently than they do. I might throw in learning that you really can't tell a book by its cover with people, so you have to give someone a shot to show up as their best selves. But if they don't the next time it is on me, not them cuz people suck at changing even when they want to. I have learned that the older I get the older the people I need to give a break for being young gets. Right now I am up to kids in their 30's power zone. I appreciate that they are feeling their oats a bit and feel so much smarter than they were in their 20's that they believe they are wise now. Full of piss and vinegar! They cannot know what they don't know yet. I suspect people in their 80's view me this way which cracks me up. I don't know if I could connect any of these revelations with any meditation. I believe that meditation can slow you down a bit so you might notice these things, but any connection between a state of mind from meditation and what I would consider wisdom seem like a stretch. It is such a basic assumptions in spiritual traditions that this connections exists. For me it all happens in the experiences of being humbled through living that has had the biggest effect on me giving my fellow man a break for acting according to their nature. After a decades of pissing into the wind you learn to turn around first. Saves on the dry cleaning bills. Curtis, I may be wrong and I may be presumptuous in saying so but my sense, in reading your recent posts, is that in the last year - maybe through the experiences with your aging father, maybe not - that you have learned some very useful and revelatory things about life and about yourself. I can relate to much of what you say in this post, especially your last paragraph. I would call it the growth of spirituality. There may be instances of flash, or maybe not. I really don't have a problem putting such experiences in the good column, and rating that higher than a life spent with no self reflection. YMMV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
From: anartax...@yahoo.com anartax...@yahoo.com Spirit means breath, or wind (the latter of which Richard has plenty). I agree with Barry here. Spiritual experience is about the nature of experience, about that rather mysterious quality called consciousness. My spiritual experience evolved entirely in the absence of a belief in something called 'god', or of spirits. While others around me used the term a lot, it was nothing to me. The word is a conceptual box. At the same time I realise that most people do seem to have trouble pursuing spiritual goals without some kind of specific handhold to grab onto. At some point you have to let go of everything you think is real. Thanks for your comments. One of the things that amuses me in this discussion is that two of the participants so far who are on record as having no need to believe in a God are also on record as having had enlightenment experiences. Whereas possibly some of those who think of themselves as believers in God have not. Clearly belief in God has nothing to do with awakening or being able to have clear, according-to-Maharishi's-definitions periods of enlightenment. My larger point is that I think that having a belief in God has nothing to do with *anything* other than having Just Another Belief. Such a belief is not necessary to follow a spiritual path, and not having such a belief is no hindrance to one.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
On 5/8/2014 9:58 AM, anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: Barry makes perfect sense here. It doesn't make /*perfect*/ sense to me. First, a belief in /reincarnation/ implies a belief in a /soul-monad/ that transmigrates at death into another human body. What is it exactly, that reincarnates? Second, a belief in /karma/ supposes reciprocity - that we are responsible for our actions. We observe that this works on the physical level, but is there a /moral reciprocity/? Sometimes people do supposedly good things but they get the bad karma in return. The main problem is with /the nature of sense experience/. If objects in our sense perception are unreal and just an illusion, then the jettisoning of the transcendental leaves one with /nothing/, not even a belief that the world is real. And, there is error - an error is something that should not be. If one is in error in the past, what assurance do we have that they are not in error now or will be in the future? These are question probably better left to Sam Harris, who seems to understand the answers. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
On 5/8/2014 10:10 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Barry makes perfect sense here. Well, that's a first. :-) Careful, or a few people here will pile onto you for saying such a heretical thing. But thanks for saying it. Just for the record, not everyone thinks /everything/ Barry has posted is confused. He is very good at describing his own environment and his own subjective experiences. But, like many of us, he may need to do some research on the philosophy part and the history of religious ideas. It's complicated and not as simple as he sometimes projects. For example, I agree with Barry about /karma/ - what life does to us and what we do back. But, I'm not convinced that there is a moral reciprocity. And, I do believe in /rebirth/ - but it's not a soul that is reborn, after nine days in the Bardo - it's the /pure universal consciousness/ that is the reborn from /a great storehouse of consciousness/. /Where is emptybill when we need him? /Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Thanks for your comments. One of the things that amuses me in this discussion is that two of the participants so far who are on record as having no need to believe in a God are also on record as having had enlightenment experiences. Whereas possibly some of those who think of themselves as believers in God have not. Such an assumption that really serves no useful purpose other than, well, you know.. Clearly belief in God has nothing to do with awakening or being able to have clear, according-to-Maharishi's-definitions periods of enlightenment. It might be helpful to know who you are arguing with on this point. My larger point is that I think that having a belief in God has nothing to do with *anything* other than having Just Another Belief. Such a belief is not necessary to follow a spiritual path, and not having such a belief is no hindrance to one. You do realize that you make this point on a nearly daily basis as though there is someone on the other side of this argument. I mean, I get the impression that people who have so called spiritual experiences may just make a note of them, and then move on. Now, I suppose there are many who benchmark these experiences, but really, it's not anything I much see here. So, maybe your comments are directed to a different audience. Even Jim, who is not bashful about declaring his enlightenment uses his own descriptions. I mean maybe they do end up corresponding somewhat to the experiences you read about in texts, and that MMY has outlined, but growth of spiritual experiences, if they are genuine, come off as being quite fresh, and usually quite confusing, at least at first.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Yeah, I agree with the bit about spiritual experiences being something that a person gets used to, no matter how flashy they may be, initially. Humans are great at assimilating any kind of experience. I find too, that whenever I tried to hold on to any spiritual experience, it went away. Once unbounded awareness is established (while it continues to expand), there is no obstacle to any kind of flashy experience; hang out with angels? why not? visit the inside of the body? OK. and after awhile, its like if a person works at Disneyland and can ride the rides, all they want, any time they want. There are two sides to life, anyway - the spiritual momentum, and character development, aka 'doing the work'. Much more concerned, and interested, in the latter, these days. So, it doesn't matter to me what a person's beliefs are, as much as what kind of a person they are. Beliefs don't count for much. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Thanks for your comments. One of the things that amuses me in this discussion is that two of the participants so far who are on record as having no need to believe in a God are also on record as having had enlightenment experiences. Whereas possibly some of those who think of themselves as believers in God have not. Such an assumption that really serves no useful purpose other than, well, you know.. Clearly belief in God has nothing to do with awakening or being able to have clear, according-to-Maharishi's-definitions periods of enlightenment. It might be helpful to know who you are arguing with on this point. My larger point is that I think that having a belief in God has nothing to do with *anything* other than having Just Another Belief. Such a belief is not necessary to follow a spiritual path, and not having such a belief is no hindrance to one. You do realize that you make this point on a nearly daily basis as though there is someone on the other side of this argument. I mean, I get the impression that people who have so called spiritual experiences may just make a note of them, and then move on. Now, I suppose there are many who benchmark these experiences, but really, it's not anything I much see here. So, maybe your comments are directed to a different audience. Even Jim, who is not bashful about declaring his enlightenment uses his own descriptions. I mean maybe they do end up corresponding somewhat to the experiences you read about in texts, and that MMY has outlined, but growth of spiritual experiences, if they are genuine, come off as being quite fresh, and usually quite confusing, at least at first.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve.sun...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2014 7:19 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Rick, I am glad the interviews are gaining a wider audience. I think they deserve that. I chuckled to myself though as I read your preparations for the interview. The thought that popped into my head was, Does he think he is interviewing God? I'm just a crazy SOB. Me too. I don’t prepare for all interviews so thoroughly. Don’t have the time. But Harris would be a challenge, and a real opportunity if properly prepared for. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote : From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve.sundur@ mailto:steve.sundur@ ... Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 6:57 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Jesus Christ, Rick, are you going to propose marriage to the guy, or just interview him! Well, he and I are both married, not gay, and there’s a big age difference, so that would probably be hard to arrange. But hey, stranger things have happened. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote : I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve.sun...@yahoo.com Rick, I am glad the interviews are gaining a wider audience. I think they deserve that. I chuckled to myself though as I read your preparations for the interview. The thought that popped into my head was, Does he think he is interviewing God? I'm just a crazy SOB. Me too. I don’t prepare for all interviews so thoroughly. Don’t have the time. But Harris would be a challenge, and a real opportunity if properly prepared for. I, for one, will be looking forward to your interview. I agree with the delurking poster who described Harris as one of the most interesting minds on the planet at this point. It will be really, really interesting to see the two of you interact, and exchange views. I can only imagine that the experience will be a wonderful one for both of you, and for us, getting to share it via video.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseBee Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2014 12:57 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com mailto:r...@searchsummit.com From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve.sun...@yahoo.com mailto:steve.sun...@yahoo.com Rick, I am glad the interviews are gaining a wider audience. I think they deserve that. I chuckled to myself though as I read your preparations for the interview. The thought that popped into my head was, Does he think he is interviewing God? I'm just a crazy SOB. Me too. I don’t prepare for all interviews so thoroughly. Don’t have the time. But Harris would be a challenge, and a real opportunity if properly prepared for. I, for one, will be looking forward to your interview. I agree with the delurking poster who described Harris as one of the most interesting minds on the planet at this point. It will be really, really interesting to see the two of you interact, and exchange views. I can only imagine that the experience will be a wonderful one for both of you, and for us, getting to share it via video. Thanks. How would you (and Curtis others) describe Harris in a word or a phrase? I see him referred to as an “atheist”, but from what I’ve read so far, that characterization is very inadequate. My impression of him so far is that everything should stand the test of actual experience, but he’s open to the possibility that experience is not limited to the obvious and mundane. So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to the possibility that God can be experienced.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to the possibility that God can be experienced.
That would be a great question to begin the interview.
On Wed, 5/7/14, Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com wrote:
Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam
Harris
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2014, 7:11 PM
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
TurquoiseBee
Sent: Wednesday, May
7, 2014 12:57 PM
To:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to
Rick Conderning his interview with Sam
Harris From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com From:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of steve.sundur@yahoo.comRick, I am glad the interviews are
gaining a wider audience. I think they deserve
that.
I chuckled to myself
though as I read your preparations for the interview. The
thought that popped into my head was, Does he think he
is interviewing God?
I'm just a crazy
SOB. Me too. I don’t
prepare for all interviews so thoroughly. Don’t have the
time. But Harris would be a challenge, and a real
opportunity if properly prepared for.
I, for one, will be looking forward
to your interview. I agree with the delurking poster who
described Harris as one of the most interesting minds on the
planet at this point. It will be really, really interesting
to see the two of you interact, and exchange views. I can
only imagine that the experience will be a wonderful one for
both of you, and for us, getting to share it via video.
Thanks. How would
you (and Curtis others) describe Harris in a word or a
phrase? I see him referred to as an “atheist”, but from
what I’ve read so far, that characterization is very
inadequate. My impression of him so far is that everything
should stand the test of actual experience, but he’s open
to the possibility that experience is not limited to the
obvious and mundane. So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to
the possibility that God can be
experienced.
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RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : Thanks. How would you (and Curtis others) describe Harris in a word or a phrase? I see him referred to as an “atheist”, but from what I’ve read so far, that characterization is very inadequate. My impression of him so far is that everything should stand the test of actual experience, but he’s open to the possibility that experience is not limited to the obvious and mundane. So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to the possibility that God can be experienced. C: Great question. As Richard mentioned, Sam doesn't like to be associated with all the baggage of assumptions the term atheist brings. He feels it is not a good description. But not because he is what you would call an agnostic. One huge misconceptions about atheist thought is that it includes the assertion that I know there is no god. I have had discussions here trying to establish this only to have it pop up again that I am making an assumption that there could not be any type of god. How could anyone know such an absolute thing? Certainly not someone trying to take a position of epistemological humility concerning the assumptions contained in theism. The difference between the atheist and the agnostic is that the atheist has looked at enough of the proofs of god's existence, or examined the reasons people have concluding this and found them unconvincing for a variety of reasons from philosophical to cultural. He has seen the various categories of how people construct their god beliefs and these are inclusive enough that it seems like an unlikely probability that man will come up with some new unknown way to make this claim that would be convincing. Agnostics are more ambivalent, but neither can rule the possibility of there being a god out. Atheism is not a positive belief, it is a lack of a belief which leads to Sam's perspective: “In fact, atheism is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.” ― Sam Harris http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/16593.Sam_Harris, Letter to a Christian Nation http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/563115 I'll bet his description in his books is how he likes to think of himself. He is a philosopher and neuroscientist (his BA and PHD and the Co-counder and CEO of Project Reason, a nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. It will be interesting to see if he includes his long time meditating in his description of his upcoming book as one of his credentials. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseBee Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2014 12:57 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris From: Rick Archer rick@... mailto:rick@... From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... Rick, I am glad the interviews are gaining a wider audience. I think they deserve that. I chuckled to myself though as I read your preparations for the interview. The thought that popped into my head was, Does he think he is interviewing God? I'm just a crazy SOB. Me too. I don’t prepare for all interviews so thoroughly. Don’t have the time. But Harris would be a challenge, and a real opportunity if properly prepared for. I, for one, will be looking forward to your interview. I agree with the delurking poster who described Harris as one of the most interesting minds on the planet at this point. It will be really, really interesting to see the two of you interact, and exchange views. I can only imagine that the experience will be a wonderful one for both of you, and for us, getting to share it via video. Thanks. How would you (and Curtis others) describe Harris in a word or a phrase? I see him referred to as an “atheist”, but from what I’ve read so far, that characterization is very inadequate. My impression of him so far is that everything should stand the test of actual experience, but he’s open to the possibility that experience is not limited to the obvious and mundane. So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to the possibility that God can be experienced.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to the possibility that God can be experienced.
That would be a great question to begin the interview.
C: Exactly. I would like to hear him articulate how we go from ineffable
experience to matching them to traditional beliefs and what we can do instead.
The question for most of us who have meditated a lot is not whether or not you
can have an experience so overwhelming that you are inclined to use terms like
God to describe then, it is what does it really mean, and what can we really be
confident about concerning such experiences and or interpretations of them.
I don't know if I could have some of the experiences I had while in the mindset
again without it. Certain aspects of the experiences don't change but a lot do.
And for a guy like Sam who was never a theist it is different still I bet.
On Wed, 5/7/14, Rick Archer rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote:
Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam
Harris
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2014, 7:11 PM
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
TurquoiseBee
Sent: Wednesday, May
7, 2014 12:57 PM
To:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to
Rick Conderning his interview with Sam
HarrisFrom: Rick Archer rick@... mailto:rick@... From:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@..., I am glad the
interviews are
gaining a wider audience. I think they deserve
that.
I chuckled to myself
though as I read your preparations for the interview. The
thought that popped into my head was, Does he think he
is interviewing God?
I'm just a crazy
SOB. Me too. I don’t
prepare for all interviews so thoroughly. Don’t have the
time. But Harris would be a challenge, and a real
opportunity if properly prepared for.
I, for one, will be looking forward
to your interview. I agree with the delurking poster who
described Harris as one of the most interesting minds on the
planet at this point. It will be really, really interesting
to see the two of you interact, and exchange views. I can
only imagine that the experience will be a wonderful one for
both of you, and for us, getting to share it via video.
Thanks. How would
you (and Curtis others) describe Harris in a word or a
phrase? I see him referred to as an “atheist”, but from
what I’ve read so far, that characterization is very
inadequate. My impression of him so far is that everything
should stand the test of actual experience, but he’s open
to the possibility that experience is not limited to the
obvious and mundane. So maybe he’s an agnostic, open to
the possibility that God can be
experienced.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
On 5/7/2014 2:35 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: “In fact, atheism is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.” We have a Sanskrit word that describes non-dualists - Advaita. Ask Harris about that, Rick. The not-two. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Rick - I doubt that Harris would think or talk about experiencing God. My take on him is that he is interested in anything that can enhance our well being, and he feels that certain forms of meditation certainly qualify. But he is highly allergic to claims that reach beyond the evidence, and to labels like God that carry so much baggage that he sees as harmful. My guess is that he will seek to describe even the describable in naturalistic terms.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve.sun...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 6:57 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Jesus Christ, Rick, are you going to propose marriage to the guy, or just interview him! Well, he and I are both married, not gay, and there’s a big age difference, so that would probably be hard to arrange. But hey, stranger things have happened. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote : I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Rick, I am glad the interviews are gaining a wider audience. I think they deserve that. I chuckled to myself though as I read your preparations for the interview. The thought that popped into my head was, Does he think he is interviewing God? I'm just a crazy SOB. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve.sundur@... Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 6:57 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Jesus Christ, Rick, are you going to propose marriage to the guy, or just interview him! Well, he and I are both married, not gay, and there’s a big age difference, so that would probably be hard to arrange. But hey, stranger things have happened. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote : I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Hey Rick, Great plan. His books aren't too long I think you will motor through them pretty quickly. His first was his longest I think. I have no doubt you will do more than justice to him but will have POV he will enjoy interacting with. It will be important to have read the book that is coming out this Fall since that is going into topics of greatest interests to both of us I suspect. I think he will also recognize that you represent a chance to be heard by an entirely new market for him through your work with Batgap. I hope that will be enough of a draw fro him to take you up on your invitation. I am excited to any part of your feedback loop and will do what I can to live up to that trust. I'll have to reread his books myself to keep up with you! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
One more thing Rick. The fact that you are reading his books already places you in an elite category of people he interacts with. So much of his time when he debates people is hacking through the forest of people who have not read what he has written, quoting people who have misconstrued what he wrote. You being in a position to actually discuss his ideas is huge. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Jesus Christ, Rick, are you going to propose marriage to the guy, or just interview him! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
