Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
carde, I'd say that that's one way to frame it. Maharishi talks about heart and mind being fully developed but not connected to each other. I think he also talks about dharma on different levels. What also comes to mind are the research findings about TMers and Kohlberg's Moral Reasoning scale. From: card cardemais...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:49 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer FWIW, wasn't it mainly morality that almost prevented Krishna from fulfilling his duty as a kshatriya? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote: (snip) Do you have any problem with folks getting the badges taken away if they attend other spiritual lectures? Let me put it this way: I don't have a problem with the TMO establishing whatever rules it thinks are necessary to ensure maximum effectiveness of the dome program and implementing those rules with good judgment and fairness. But that's in principle. I don't know whether its rules *do* ensure maximum effectiveness; nor is it clear to me, from what I've heard here (although I have no way of verifying it), that the rules are implemented wisely and fairly. However, it's been my impression that badges aren't taken away simply for attending a spiritual lecture; I had thought one had to be actively helping the teacher (e.g., making arrangements for the lecture). And I had also thought this applied only to governors, not the rank and file. Just attending a lecture seems like overkill, as well as being impossible to enforce consistently. But I don't live in Fairfield, so I have no firsthand knowledge of any of this. (snip) Do you think Hagelin's morality is a bad reflection on the efficacy of the TM technique to evolve a personality into a more moral being ? I think you'd have an apology to explain that, but I don't know, so I ask if you've put it into text yet. For discussion purposes, let's just talk about anyone who is a serial marriage rapist instead of Hagelin, cuz I only know gossip about him, so just answer if you think TM affects morality such that a person of that ilk would be improved in, say, less than ten years of such therapy. I'm afraid I'm gonna have to give you another equivocal response here. I haven't seen much evidence that practice of TM affects morality positively (at least morality per my standards). On the other hand, I've become increasingly uncertain about the nature of the relationship between expansion of consciousness in the direction of enlightenment (via any technique) and morality. I'm not sure these days whether there's *any* relationship at all; and if there is, I sure wouldn't want to have to define it so as to make it possible reliably to discern someone's development of consciousness (or the effectiveness of their practice) based on the morality (whose?) of their behavior. One thing I *am* sure of: It's completely unacceptable to excuse or try to justify bad behavior on the basis of one's estimation of a person's development of consciousness. The enlightened guy doesn't get a pass on making a pass. Best I can do, Edg. I guess that's postmodern spirituality for you. ;-) You're welcome to probe further if you'd like me to elaborate on my ambivalence.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
L, I've heard others say that about only seeing remains. I understand it from the perspective of the development from GC to UC. Both subject and object of knowing get subsumed by and thus united by, the process of knowing. I prefer to call that knowingness. It's kind of a funny combo of statis and activity. I've had glimpses only, not claiming anything other than early morning waking state. From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 6:13 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer I watched the 57 minute version of this panel discussion and a few things that I noted: Apparently it is ok to mention Ramana Maharishi but not Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The meditation teacher in the center, I believe, was a long-term TM teacher, but now perhaps an independent teacher of his own set of techniques? John, I think, was biting his tongue almost continuously. The artist had some interesting things to say, but a couple of things he said I fould off: if I heard him correctly, he said that samadhi is where the seeing is all that is left? That seer, process of seeing and seen merge and only the seeing is left? Di he say or mean seer and I misheard? Also, he made mention several times of breath suspension, but in fact, if you can be aware that your breath has suspended, that is an awareness OF the body or at least awareness of breath-suspension, and is not samadhi. All the panelists seem to have fallen prey to the shortcoming that they mention where they assume they have arrived somewhere. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@... wrote: New post on Buddha at the Gas Pump http://s.wordpress.com/i/emails/blavatar-default.png http://batgap.com/?author=1 http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/ 175. Panel Discussion †John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer by http://batgap.com/?author=1 Rick PANEL: The Three Simultaneously True Levels of Nondual Reality; Don't Mistake Understanding for Realization, Don't Mistake Realization for Liberation. John Hagelin, Ph.D., is a world-renowned quantum physicist, educator, public policy expert, and leading proponent of peace. Dr. Hagelin received his A.B. summa cum laude from Dartmouth College and his M.A. and Ph.D. from Harvard University, […] http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/ Read more of this post http://batgap.com/?author=1 Rick | May 20, 2013 at 7:06 am | Categories: http://batgap.com/?taxonomy=categoryterm=guests Guests | URL: http://wp.me/p1q1S0-IB http://wp.me/p1q1S0-IB http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/#respond Comment http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/#comments See all comments Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/ http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/ http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=jetpack.wordpress.comblog=20980056post=2765subd=batgap.comref=email=1email_o=jetpack
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sparaig Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 6:14 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer I watched the 57 minute version of this panel discussion and a few things that I noted: Apparently it is ok to mention Ramana Maharishi but not Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Hagelin is careful at that conference, and probably others, not to come across as a TM/MMY proselytizer. Ramana is universally respected. MMY is not. The meditation teacher in the center, I believe, was a long-term TM teacher, but now perhaps an independent teacher of his own set of techniques? Mark McCooey? Nope. Not an independent teacher. No set of techniques. John, I think, was biting his tongue almost continuously. See above. All the panelists seem to have fallen prey to the shortcoming that they mention where they assume they have arrived somewhere. At least some of them have. They don’t have to assume. The critique was of those who mistake understanding for realization. These guys are quite well realized. Their understanding is just icing on the cake. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote: New post on Buddha at the Gas Pump http://s.wordpress.com/i/emails/blavatar-default.png http://batgap.com/?author=1 http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/ 175. Panel Discussion †John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer by http://batgap.com/?author=1 Rick PANEL: The Three Simultaneously True Levels of Nondual Reality; Don't Mistake Understanding for Realization, Don't Mistake Realization for Liberation. John Hagelin, Ph.D., is a world-renowned quantum physicist, educator, public policy expert, and leading proponent of peace. Dr. Hagelin received his A.B. summa cum laude from Dartmouth College and his M.A. and Ph.D. from Harvard University, […] http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/ Read more of this post http://batgap.com/?author=1 Rick | May 20, 2013 at 7:06 am | Categories: http://batgap.com/?taxonomy=category http://batgap.com/?taxonomy=categoryterm=guests term=guests Guests | URL: http://wp.me/p1q1S0-IB http://wp.me/p1q1S0-IB http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/#respond Comment http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/#comments See all comments Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/ http://batgap.com/sand-panel-discussion/ http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=jetpack.wordpress.com http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=jetpack.wordpress.comblog=20980056post=2765subd=batgap.comref=email=1email_o=jetpack blog=20980056post=2765subd=batgap.comref=email=1email_o=jetpack
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
You're assuming these other techniques are concentrative. They're not. On 05/22/2013 12:49 AM, sparaig wrote: At first, perhaps. In the long run, the more concentrative a technique, the less pure consciousness like the EEG starts to look, both during and after practice. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 05/21/2013 09:07 AM, Rick Archer wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of authfriend Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:09 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Duveyoung no_reply@ mailto:no_reply@ wrote: (snip) No way, Maharishi would have done the same panel that even faintly suggested there were other meditations that could lead to transcendence. Maharishi himself said that, for pete's sake. But he did always emphasize that TM was the most natural and effective, and that if anything were as natural and effective as TM, then essentially, it was TM, though it might be called something different. IOW, a bit of doublespeak. He knew there were lots of techniques that were more powerful but many of those would not be for the general public. That statement also suggests that TM isn't that much different from a lot of other meditation techniques. In general most mantra meditation techniques will cause transcendence. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: fairfieldlife-dig...@yahoogroups.com fairfieldlife-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: fairfieldlife-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Duveyoung Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:49 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer Maharishi never authenticated other techniques as guaranteed to be worthy -- TM being the only technique with 5,000 years backing it up; whereas the others might be impure-so-be-careful-of-these-seemingly-maybe-sorta-okay-other-techniques, and that one had to be careful to have this long tradition or the effort to spread the technique would not be supported by nature -- yada yada. We were COMMANDED by Jerry Jarvis to not attend lectures of other teachings, because, The lecturer will warmly greet the TM initiator's being in the audience and thus the audience will ask itself 'Why is that TM teacher there except for him having doubts about TM?' Are you ignoring that dome badges are lost by anyone BUT Hegelin who would be on one of Rick's panels? L.B. got banned, right? Hegelin -- why was he there except that the movement is reaching out in desperation? I think he agreed to participate because I was his initiator, so he has a soft spot in his heart for me. I don’t sense any desperation in John. Such conferences are small in the big scheme of things, but rather significant in the contemporary spiritual scene. Hagelin’s talks at that conference are very well received. He’s very diplomatic. He doesn’t mention TM and MMY, but people all know he represents them. They’re on some of his slides. He’s respectful of other teachers with whom he participates in panel discussions. He doesn’t come across as holier-than-thou.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of authfriend Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:09 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Duveyoung no_reply@... mailto:no_reply@... wrote: (snip) No way, Maharishi would have done the same panel that even faintly suggested there were other meditations that could lead to transcendence. Maharishi himself said that, for pete's sake. But he did always emphasize that TM was the most natural and effective, and that if anything were as natural and effective as TM, then essentially, it was TM, though it might be called something different.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
On 05/21/2013 09:07 AM, Rick Archer wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of authfriend Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:09 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Duveyoung no_reply@... mailto:no_reply@... wrote: (snip) No way, Maharishi would have done the same panel that even faintly suggested there were other meditations that could lead to transcendence. Maharishi himself said that, for pete's sake. But he did always emphasize that TM was the most natural and effective, and that if anything were as natural and effective as TM, then essentially, it was TM, though it might be called something different. IOW, a bit of doublespeak. He knew there were lots of techniques that were more powerful but many of those would not be for the general public. That statement also suggests that TM isn't that much different from a lot of other meditation techniques. In general most mantra meditation techniques will cause transcendence.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Duveyoung Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:39 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion – John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote: Maharishi never authenticated other techniques as guaranteed to be worthy -- TM being the only technique with 5,000 years backing it up; whereas the others might be impure-so-be-careful-of-these-seemingly-maybe-sorta-okay-other-techniques, and that one had to be careful to have this long tradition or the effort to spread the technique would not be supported by nature -- yada yada. We were COMMANDED by Jerry Jarvis to not attend lectures of other teachings, because, The lecturer will warmly greet the TM initiator's being in the audience and thus the audience will ask itself 'Why is that TM teacher there except for him having doubts about TM?' Are you ignoring that dome badges are lost by anyone BUT Hegelin who would be on one of Rick's panels? L.B. got banned, right? Hegelin -- why was he there except that the movement is reaching out in desperation? Edg, I haven't watched the video, so I really can't comment. And as you know, I speak as just a meditator, not an initiator. I simply wanted to point out that we were never taught (I was never taught) that TM had a special patent on transcending *per se* (TM was said to have other competitive advantages, of course). So please don't read into what I said more than was there, OK? Okay. Do you have any problem with folks getting the badges taken away if they attend other spiritual lectures? Not sure, but I bet the course office would take a dome badge if anyone but Hagelin choose to be interviewed by Rick. Rick.anyone lost a dome badge cuz of these interviews? I believe one did. And several have declined for fear that they would. The one who did may not have lost his badge – not sure – but he had an administrative position with the university which he lost shortly after my interview with him, probably because of it. I’m sure I’d get the boot for doing this show, if I hadn’t already gotten the boot for FFL and Amma activities.
