Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 11, 2011, at 2:53 AM, sparaig wrote: Well, you see, I think it is YOU who are missing MMY's nuances here. Certainly stress can have good and bad qualities (eustress and distress). However, anything that pulls one away from the quality of functioning of the nervous system where pure consciousness is always present, is stressful. That doesn't mean that it can't be fun, beneficial in its own way etc. only that it isn't pure consciousness. Of course, the point of the TM *program* is to alternate meditation, which approaches the state of pure consciousness, with regular activity, which is inherently stressful, so that eventually one can be in a state where pure consciousness is never lost. This doesn't mean that activity will cease to be stressful in the western sense, only that the nervous system has become strong enough to maintain pure consciousness, at least during relatively stressful activity. In a sense, you could say that all activity has become eustress- ish, though, of course, some activity is more inherently eustressful than other activity. I think you're missing what Mahesh was trying to say. He was obviously attempting to put the idea of the purification of the nadis into terms that westerners could understand, and at the same time give it a veneer of respectability by attempting to make it look scientific. Two things though: the two are not reconcilable as there is no (none, zero, zip) science on nadi-bindu-vayu and stress and secondly Mahesh had little experiential knowledge of these deeper and essential practices. This becomes manifestly obvious if you listen to the tapes where M. tried to muddle his way thru these descriptions of stress in the nadis - which are most likely ripped straight out of Arthur Avalon's books. But it's clear he doesn't have a clue to what he's talking about, but it does lend further credence to the fact that he was prompted by western students prior to his revelations. Since he was caught at Estes Park doing this and we have evidence up and through the Swiss period, we know his knowledge was not self knowledge, but gleaned from common translations of tantric texts. So anyone who puts any validity into his unstressing schtick is just fooling themselves.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 11, 2011, at 3:04 AM, sparaig wrote: I like to cite my old friend Anoop Chandola, who is not only a Sanskrit/Hindu scholar, but has one very close family member who was part of the committee who selected SBS in the first place. Appeal to authority or argumentum ad verecundiam is a common logical fallacy.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 12, 2011, at 10:25 AM, sparaig wrote: Eh, as I said, I have a friend who is reasonably accomplished as a Vedic/Hindu scholar, who considers MMY to be the real deal. YMMV of course. You should send him a copy of David Wants to Fly. :-) And while your at it, you should also try to get a copy of the recent interview with SBS's successor. He's very clear: the person who created the recent problems re: Jyotir Math and who sowed the seeds of dissension there were none other than Mahesh Varma. What it boils down to in your friends case is true believers will believe anything. They're not actually interested in scholarship, but only what supports their acquired illusions.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:10 PM, sparaig lengli...@cox.net wrote: The current successor wasn't even at the ashram when SBS died, He was studying with another guru. Smart man. It's never good to be attached.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 9, 2011, at 10:29 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Dec 5, 2011, at 8:04 AM, seventhray1 wrote: Oh, good. I'll just have to revise my experience so it conforms with your analysis. Actually we've all already been pre-programmed to believe in the stress release, unstressing, model is factually correct. Each time we transcend we're chipping away at those stresses in our nervous system. So I believe most of us who were indoctrinated into TM would chose as you did. Actually, the current theory of how TM works is that it sets up a situation in the thalamus that inhibits the thalamo-coritical feedback loops that scientists believe are what we experience as thoughts. This allows the brain to relax into a default mode of functioning where it is still alert, but literally not thinking about much of anything. The stronger the inhibition, the less thinking tha is done. Coincidentally, the default mode of functioning that results is where the front part of the brain and the back part of the brain are most easily able to communicate with each other. This is the exact opposite of stress, which tends to interfere with the communication between the front and back parts of the brain. The only problem with such theories is Lawson that TM is really only an elementary practice of mantra meditation. From the POV of the actual mantra tradition, the subtlest level of mantra in TM - the point where one still has some abstract feeling of the mantra before reaching what TMers believe is the transcendent - is 512 times more gross than the subtlest level of mantra reached before the mind is actually transcended - what is known as the unmana stage. In order to even access those levels of subtlety one needs to complete the piercing of the bindu (bindu-bhedana) and master further levels of practice. This level of subtlety simply does not exist in TM. So theories that are in effect based on iterations of the grossest levels of mind are not really, ultimately, of much value except to the indoctrinated TM crowd, and those they can still fool. As I've said many times, you need to transcend the transcendent (what's believed to be transcendent in TM) to even begin to approach the actual full transcendence of mind. Once that level is attained, then some interesting research could be done. However since the 'canon of awakening in TM' was effectively frozen with the death of MMY, that point will never be reached. It's also therefore a fact that all TM research can only ever be of minor interest to serious consciousness researchers.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 7, 2011, at 8:36 PM, sparaig lengli...@cox.net wrote: Heh. MMY always portrayed himself as a reformer, so conservatives would naturally be incensed with what he said. Of course the real reason they were incensed was probably because he was destroying the purity of their tradition, while making the dubious claim to be restoring it. I've noticed that destroyers of traditions often present themselves as reformers. ANd in fact, MMY's point that I was in turn pointing out, is that one can spout rhetoric all day long, but if that rhetoric isn't based on internal states, then it is merely flowery words. Yes, I think you've touched on the essence of TM: flowery rhetoric and slick sales presentations based on relaxation states but sold as higher states of consciousness.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 5, 2011, at 11:44 PM, sparaig wrote: Isn't Mahesh supposed to be MMY's given first name? It's certainly strange for a scholar posing as a neutral party to refer to a person whom he has never met, but whom he has written formal words about, by his first name. If he's a decent scholar he knows that for the alias Maharishi Mahesh Yogi: Maharishi is a grandiose, self-proclaimed title. So then you end up with Mahesh Yogi. But we now know that he never had any training or ordination as a yogi! So that leaves Mahesh. It's also what SBS called him...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 5, 2011, at 11:46 PM, sparaig wrote: That might be, but of course, this doesn't say anything about the kids and prison inmates who learn TM en mass through the David Lynch FOundation. Well you'd have to do another study. But I doubt at this late date anyone independent would be interested, let alone be given access to datum.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 6, 2011, at 1:09 AM, sparaig wrote: Because his comments are very much in line with a lot of TM teachers I have run into over the years. He regurgitates the Knowledge, but doesn't appear to get it. THe whole thing in the interview about how since a given guru was from the advaita traditionkthey should be welcomed at MUM, misses the whole point of TM. He's commenting from the broader base that the tradition TM comes from rather than merely relying on TM-speak or the blinders on view of a TB or a TM-TB. And trust me, that always scares TB's, they go into a frenzy. In this case it's clear that DS is very qualified to comment on the larger view of the tradition, esp. given his inside experience of TM instruction and practice. He's also one of the leading experts on the dandi sannyasis.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 4, 2011, at 9:49 PM, seventhray1 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: I think it's important to distinguish between meditation forms that help samskaras be dissolved and those that plant sattvic seeds in the mind to overwhelm the rajasic and tamasic weeds. One method is like planting many flowers in a garden so that they overwhelm the weeds to the point they're barely noticeable, the other is like dissolving the weeds at the roots so the garden's already present state can emerge. So which is which? Are you saying TM is more like one of these than the other. Both methods sound positive. From my experience, I would say TM was more like #2. But that was also coupled with a lot of introspection and work on my part to root out tendencies that were causing me problems. For me TM was more like a break in the action and a balm for mind and body. Sorry Ray, the correct answer was door number one.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 5, 2011, at 8:04 AM, seventhray1 wrote: Oh, good. I'll just have to revise my experience so it conforms with your analysis. Actually we've all already been pre-programmed to believe in the stress release, unstressing, model is factually correct. Each time we transcend we're chipping away at those stresses in our nervous system. So I believe most of us who were indoctrinated into TM would chose as you did. Thanks for examples of tecniques that utilize #1. But just to be clear, since you reverse the order in the first and second parts of your paragraph, I found TM to aid in a dissolving of the samskaras. I'm not getting the planting of sattwic seeds as it pertains to the practice of TM. Care to be more specific about that? The basic idea is that the mind is naturally unruly at the start, particularly because of the dominance of rajasic and tamsic thought patterns. If you take something sattvic, like a goddesses mantra and repeat it enough times this embrues the mindstream with sattvic qualities, making it easier for the mind to settle down.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
No Feste, that was not the point of what I was saying. But thanks for asking. :-) On Dec 3, 2011, at 10:52 PM, feste37 fest...@yahoo.com wrote: So you're saying that TM causes people to be afraid to go outside or to be in public? Gosh, I never knew that, and I was in the movement for decades! Thanks, Vaj! Useful information to have.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 4, 2011, at 9:33 AM, richardatrwilliamsdotus wrote: So, you need Dana Sawyer, who never even tried TM, to explain to you TM? You're supposed to be the spiritual teacher! You're thinking Dana Sawyer knows anything about the TM or the TMO? Go figure. Prof. Sawyer was expelled from the TMO for daring to explore other meditation methods.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 4, 2011, at 10:30 AM, feste37 wrote: But it was part of what you said. (See below. I've restored your words that you deleted.) Here's what I said: I regularly talk to people who will mention problems as simple as having to alter their life because they're afraid to go outside or in public. Do you really mean that TM causes people to be afraid to go outside? Let me clarify what I said, since you're not getting it. I regularly talk to people On a consistent basis I'm talking to persons who have problems (plural)... as simple as having to alter their life because they're afraid to go outside or in public. ...to give a singular example, some might develop agoraphobic-type issues. To give further examples, some might develop hypersensitivties about being around other people. There are a large number of variations like this, it's not just limited to being in public. Because that's what you said. If indeed there are any examples I suspect your reasoning goes like this: person has psychological problems; person also does TM, therefore the problems are caused by TM. But I doubt whether that is valid. I'm relying on their perceptions and the conclusions they're drawing, not my own. They often associate these issues with extensive rounding, or (more rarely) the TMSP. Just as an aside, I loved rounding, it was one of my favorite TM activities. I'm not sure if I had any negative side effects, it seemed to have a relatively positive effect for may (often sensations of mental bliss). I think it would be more accurate to say that in such instances, TM proved to be no help in addressing the problem. These all occurred after long rounding, etc., so that is what they're associating it with. I can accept that, because TM is not a cure-all, but I don't think it makes people (to use your example) afraid to go outside. Such allegations, it seems to me, are just part of your long vendetta against TM and the TM movement, in which anything will do, whether accurate or not. When you talk to people who've helped in the recovery of such persons, they can site hundreds, even thousands of such instances. I should also point out a similar trend I've seen in the last ten years is also among people coming from the many Hindu kundalini paths that have sprung up. they're having similar problems or even more severe problems. Suffice to say, many of these types of disorders are well known in Ayurvedic and Tibetan medical literature.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 4, 2011, at 1:42 PM, feste37 wrote: Well, that's interesting. I never liked rounding so did as little of it as possible. I can imagine that if people are cooped up all day doing that then they might get a bit reclusive for a while and find it difficult to get back into a more integrated lifestyle, but I would have thought such feelings would be very short-term. Anything more serious, I would doubt were caused by long rounding, although the people may well be sincere in thinking that. I suspect there must be some other underlying issues in such cases that have nothing to do with TM. I believe there is a cause effect relationship in this case, just having observed the weird hypersensitivities in various rounders or hardcore sidhas. I think it's important to distinguish between meditation forms that help samskaras be dissolved and those that plant sattvic seeds in the mind to overwhelm the rajasic and tamasic weeds. One method is like planting many flowers in a garden so that they overwhelm the weeds to the point they're barely noticeable, the other is like dissolving the weeds at the roots so the garden's already present state can emerge.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
Feste, even-though Vaj is a big liar he is right on some of the symptoms. During my kundalini descension I suffered from symptoms that resemble panic attacks. During 2 weeks in 2006 it result in massive agoraphobia for me. Of course I was blessed enough that existence guided me and I never had to rely on crooks like Vaj or big pharma. I healed and integrated the energy naturally. So quite possible that several people who trigger Kundalini through TM had these symptoms, but they have no faith and trust in the process or Guru to complete it. Psychosis is another state that helped my body, mind, ego to go through the Kundalini ascension phase. Again I can envision the possibility of people stuck in this state for a whole lifetime because they trusted crooks like Vaj and the big pharma. I have written about this in the past. I can talk more if you are interested. On Dec 4, 2011, at 11:14 AM, feste37 fest...@yahoo.com wrote: I know nothing about meditation forms other than TM, which was the only one that ever interested me, so I am unable to comment on your analogy. I am aware that more than a few TM meditators have hypersensitivities, but I'm not sure that is always a bad thing: they have their antennae up to detect anything that might be harmful and coming their way, so as best to avoid it (food sensitivities, for example). I have hypersensitivities of my own, but I don't think TM or the TMSP had any effect on them, one way or another. It's just part of the makeup of the personality. But that's just my experience. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Dec 4, 2011, at 1:42 PM, feste37 wrote: Well, that's interesting. I never liked rounding so did as little of it as possible. I can imagine that if people are cooped up all day doing that then they might get a bit reclusive for a while and find it difficult to get back into a more integrated lifestyle, but I would have thought such feelings would be very short-term. Anything more serious, I would doubt were caused by long rounding, although the people may well be sincere in thinking that. I suspect there must be some other underlying issues in such cases that have nothing to do with TM. I believe there is a cause effect relationship in this case, just having observed the weird hypersensitivities in various rounders or hardcore sidhas. I think it's important to distinguish between meditation forms that help samskaras be dissolved and those that plant sattvic seeds in the mind to overwhelm the rajasic and tamasic weeds. One method is like planting many flowers in a garden so that they overwhelm the weeds to the point they're barely noticeable, the other is like dissolving the weeds at the roots so the garden's already present state can emerge.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nablusoss1008 Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 1:44 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer rick@... wrote: Dana Sawyer has written a book on the TM Movement, and needs some photos. Please see below and let me know if you can help: I'd love to have photos of any and all important events and personalities, and you know those as well as I do. For instance: Swami Brahmananda MMY with Guru Dev MMY with Charlie Lutes (or Lutes separate) MMY with the Beatles MMY with Jerry Jarvis (or Jerry separate) Big European TTCs, like La Antilla and Majorca MMY on Merv Keith Wallace, first prez of MIU Headquarters in Switzerland National headquarters in LA photos of regional coordinators Domes at MIU Lillian Rosen? Bullah Smith? People practicing the flying sutra These are some ideas that come readily to mind. Let me know what you can get, Dana What kind of book ? Haven't read it. Don't know the content.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of richardatrwilliamsdotus Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:34 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos shukra69: this is a desperate crazy person kind of drive-by slander on your part isn't it Vag? Vaj: I feel that all recent information relating to the TMO's dark side would be relevant, esp. material that relates to the traditional problems meditation can cause - and the hope for relief for people suffering... So, you need Dana Sawyer, who never even tried TM, to explain to you TM? You're supposed to be the spiritual teacher! You're thinking Dana Sawyer knows anything about the TM or the TMO? Go figure. Dana was a TM teacher, speaks fluent Hindi, has interviewed just about every significant yogi and swami in India, etc. I'd say he knows a thing or two about TM and the TMO.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
On Dec 4, 2011, at 5:50 PM, feste37 wrote: I find this interesting but am not convinced by the idea (hardly a psychological fact) that those who start TM constitute a certain type of person, since such a huge variety of people have learned TM over the years. That's true. You could easily argue, it's just a sample from one stretch a time. The broader number of samples, the better. It would be interesting to see how well it would replicated, for example, if there was a sudden Oprah wave that would be a perfect oppurtunity. I think the self-selection idea could be better applied to the TM campus community here in Fairfield, since that is certainly a self-selected group from among the many thousands of people who have learned TM, and they may well have some traits in common that would make your question, What unique vulnerabilities does this group of humans have? a valid and an interesting one. But I think it would have to be balanced by a more positive question: What unique strengths, including gifts, talents, and spiritual vision does this group of humans have? Then we might be able to reach a more fair-minded conclusion. One of the problems with sampling TMers in questionaire formats of any kind is how much have they been already biased by research they've been shown or indoctrinated in? And unfortunately the answer with someone who is so deep into the TM worldview as to be enrolled in a TM university culture is hugely biased. In fact a lot of those people may have become involved because of research they were shown. Because of this fact, I'm afraid most if not all subjects would not be neutral or naive to the questions. Of course the opposite side of the coin is that disreputable researchers, understanding the lack of naiveté and because of the their ability to cherry-pick certain true believers, they can skew almost any research in their favor. Plus if you have a group like 1000-headed Purusha or MD as a PR mechanism, you can flood the web nowadays with so much counter-information and disinformation that modern consumers gobble it right up.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dana Sawyer needs photos
I feel that all recent information relating to the TMO's dark side would be relevant, esp. material that relates to the traditional problems meditation can cause - and the hope for relief for people suffering. You might see the still on-going PR of the TMO as more evidence of the success of the org. But I cannot ignore that this same org has more psychosis, suicide and meditational disorders than any meditation org I'm aware of. I regularly talk to people who will mention problems as simple as having to alter their life because they're afraid to go outside or in public. My heart goes out to these folks. So if a book is coming out on the TMO, I would hope there'd be some room for outreach. On Dec 3, 2011, at 9:11 PM, shukra69 shukr...@yahoo.ca wrote: this is a desperate crazy person kind of drive-by slander on your part isn't it Vag?
