Re: Spectrum?
2008/9/24 Mike Langlie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ian Weller wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 07:28:06PM -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: Is there a reason why Mike Langlie's Spectrum wallpaper is no longer being considered for Fedora 10? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F10Themes/spectrum I was gonna complete this for Mike but I unfortunately ran out of time. :( I might repropose it for him (or make it from scratch in inkscape, hopefully) for a later version of Fedora. Or, of course, he can repropose it for then. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list Sorry for the incompletion, been bludgeonably busy. It's to bad I have been using the original spectrum background for a while now and I really love it. I hope to see a nice professional looking full theme like it presented for F11. - David ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: R: Re: Round 3 theme and fedora-fr community
2008/9/23 Nicu Buculei [EMAIL PROTECTED] Samuele Storari wrote: Part of my idea come from part of that image. YES But the desktop was created by USING free source and this is the last time I will say it. The Hattory Hanzo katana is a katana u know a katana. Katana is for most similar: Trying to hod myself from exclaiming no shit? And yet.. The Hilt AGAIN is not the hattory hanzo hilt cos as u can see is for most similar to other thousand katana's hilt. What can I say? rotate the image 180 degrees and the resemblance is, uh..., uncanny: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/invinxible.ogv ...it surprises you that an iconic image of a katana which he already admitted to using as inspiration contains a katana of a similar design.. when katanas are pretty much the same, I mean it looks exactly like the replica my friend has hanging on his wall as well, will you accuse him of stealing that as well? ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Policy on works using unacceptable licenses?
2008/9/23 Máirín Duffy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi folks, Since it is now clear we have some licensing issues with at least one of the candidates for the theme, I would like to hear your thoughts on what we should do. Since the vote is in art team members' hands I think it's our call to decide what to do next. Here are the options as I see them and/or as have been suggested to me: 1 - disqualify invinXble as a theme, even if invinXble wins, the 2nd-place winner will win 2 - if invinXble (or any theme that has photos we aren't able to source) wins, replace any sourced photographs in it with properly-licensed ones 3 - disqualify any themes that use images we cannot find properly-licensed photo source references for. For what it's worth, anyway, here are my thoughts: I've considered option 1 because I think it would make it quite clear that as a team we can not and will not tolerate risks to Fedora's freedom. While I can understand an accidental slip-up or misunderstanding, I cannot understand deception taken to this degree over time (posting multiple fake sources, 'cover ups' in the source files, repeated denials, broken promises) and I don't want us to look as if we endorse that kind of behavior in any way. If invinXble ends up being the default for Fedora, at least for myself, it would be a continual reminder of this deception even if it was repaired. As for option 2, I have offered to do the work needed but I also understand this may be quite some work and we *cannot* slip and miss the preview release. It's may need to involve me going to Boston Museum of Fine Arts for a katana shoot... Consider this the 'making lemonade out of lemons' option. I don't know if 3 is really a viable option; it will be a lot of work to replace source photos we aren't sure of, but it will also be a lot of work to expand the other two themes to a final state. (both Neon and Grub need grub and syslinux designs and overall refinement.) I do think that in their current state, inviXble and potentially Solar are not acceptable for inclusion in Fedora. I think Solar will be easier to repair than invinXble. The moon photo in Solar is not as visible and central as the katana photo in invinXble. I would favor option 2 with the understanding that a proper policy be written and must be agreed upon when submitting artwork for Fedora in the future. This way we do not lose the two most developed themes this late in the game and we still get to correct the problem. This at least would be similar to what we have done in other parts of the distro when such unfortunate issues have arisen. - David ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Education on image licensing and freedom
2008/9/23 Máirín Duffy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi folks, Did any of you joining the art team have doubts/questions/confusion over copyright law and licensing as it pertains to the usage of externally-sourced images used in artwork? Were you unsure of what licenses were acceptable to use in Fedora artwork? What kinds of questions / uncertainties did you have, if any? I think we may need to get better at making clear our expectations with respect to sourced image licensing. For some time now, we have had the following statement on the main artwork wiki page [1]: # All contributions must be covered by the Contributor License Agreement . We cannot accept contributions from individuals who have not signed the CLA in the Fedora Account System . The CLA allows us to properly license artwork submissions for distribution with Fedora and other Fedora projects. # Submissions must respect artwork licensing. If your submissions consist of artwork created by other people, please make sure the license of the original work you incorporate is compatible with Fedora and that you are not violating any of the provisions of its license. Just because a work is licensed with a Creative Commons license does not mean it is free to use (make sure you provide attribution to artists that license their work with a CC Attribution clause.) Are there any issues with this text? Does it need to be modified or expanded to be made more clear? Should it be copied to every main theme process page (eg /Artwork/F10Themes)? Overall I think it's fine, maybe the wiki could supplement with a few simple examples of do and don'ts, such as: * Unsure about source licensing terms, don't use it. * Unable to document source licensing terms, don't use it. It's my experience that humans often respond better to such guidelines, the above is great from a legal stance but it does not always mean the human mind thinks through all the possible scenerios. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: R: Re: Round 3 theme and fedora-fr community
Den 22. sep. 2008 10.07 skrev Marco Mornati [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, I read all comment on French Forum... Just a point... I noticed that there are some problems to have a Katana on a desktop and there were a propose to change with something like bamboo... I think that a substitution of katana with something different (different than an arms) change also the meaning of the invinxible theme... I'm also in agreement with vote with solar and invinxible in the first two positions! ;) Invinxible is by far the nicest theme in my opinion. I don't really see a problem with having a nice katana on the desktop, the katana when invented was a marvel of technology, like Fedora is today. I have showed the invinxible theme to many people and not one has replied negatively in any way, artistically or as a result of offence over the motive. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Solar InvinXble Updates
2008/9/16 Samuele Storari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all! Here we are again... I've uploaded on the wiki all the requested materiale for Fedora 10 Theme. U find all here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F10Themes/Solar https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F10Themes/InvinXble Invixible lacks the awesome plymouth splash mockup you posted the other day. Aside that I love every bit of it. - David ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Plymouth animated startup
2008/9/13 Charlie Brej [EMAIL PROTECTED] In Fedora 10 there will be a new graphical startup program replacing RHGB[1]. Its called Plymouth and it starts even earlier than rhgb. You can see a demo of the current default fedora startup here[2]. The system works on plugins to allow different styles of splash screens. To play around with it I wrote a plugin which uses components of the InvinXble theme and animates them. You can see a video of this[3]. It is still work in progress but it does not seem too CPU intensive. I kept the plugin pretty general so it should be easy to change it to suit any theme. What I would like is some feedback as to whether something like this is desirable. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BetterStartup [2] http://katzj.livejournal.com/432586.html [3] http://brej.org/test/plymouth_invx.mpg and http://brej.org/test/plymouth_invx.gif That is definitely sexy, I do have one comment though. The current plymouth splash has a progress bar, and as pretty as this is it doesn't tell us anything about the boot progress so a user might be tempted to think we stalled, any thoughts as to the need for such visual feedback?. Aside that I love it. - David ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Does blue make you blue?
Den 30. jul. 2008 19.52 skrev Paul W. Frields [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Does the Artwork team think, overall, that using a blue palette for our desktop theme (background) helps Fedora with its identity and branding? Do you want to continue that for Fedora 10? As a user I would love to see us break free of the blue prison, it looks dated and should be put down with all manners of mercy possible. I think it hurts us to stick with the blue theme and unlike other competing distros not work towards a unified look over several cycles. Getting a more integrated artwork effort, making sure we get a good vision of where we want to go and working with our programmers to bring the required technology onboard over say 4 releases, making sure our icons, backgrounds and theme look like a whole. - David ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Transparency :)
man, 28 01 2008 kl. 07:55 +0100, skrev Valent Turkovic: 2008/1/28 Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So you are saying that there is no special reason why is upstream gnome would reject it? Can you send this patch to upstream gnome? It could be just forgotten, like other bugs and patches in their bugzilla... Ie. icon view in file picker, single click i file picker, tooltips over files and folders in Nautilus... BTW, GNOME developers are just doing NOTHING useful to end used. How useful is GNOME-VFS → GVFS/GIO change to end user? It would see no difference... Is Gnome in such a bad state that they can't include a patch? What is going on with gnome? I see KDE team doing some amazing stuff with KDE4 and I wonder how they can do it and gnome can't do such simple things... We have standards for quality of code, we do after all have to maintain it. It needs to work, it needs to not introduce bugs and so on. The two of us appear to have very little understanding for how programming and design works. Just because you can't see a change doesn't mean it's not important. gvfs e.g. plays an important part in making pretty much every feature Jakub listed work the right way. I would recommend that you actually examine the rationale behind something like gvfs, do some research. And please be respectful when asking questions.. don't start out by insulting the developers by saying what they are spending their time on is useless without understanding what it really is. - David Nielsen signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Transparency :)
søn, 27 01 2008 kl. 22:07 +0100, skrev Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek: Dnia 27-01-2008, nie o godzinie 21:58 +0100, Valent Turkovic pisze: 2008/1/27 Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dnia 27-01-2008, nie o godzinie 15:53 +0100, Valent Turkovic pisze: I found this gtk theme engine [1] with transparency and would love to see it in fedora if possible. What do you thing about it? The screenshots look amazingly beautiful. [1] http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2007/12/12/gtk-rgba-transparent-widgets-with-the-murrine-engine It requires GTK2 from SVN with special patch applied. How special is the special patch ? Will it be incorporated upstream if it doesn't have any horrible bugs and doesn't break anything? Not sure but probably it would be the same situation as with macmenu patch : . Forgotten : . The detached menu patch has not been forgotten, the code was unacceptable for upstream. However now someone has taken the concept and started writing a nicer solution for this which is being evaluated for inclusion. signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Transparency :)
man, 28 01 2008 kl. 01:31 +0100, skrev Valent Turkovic: 2008/1/28 David Nielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: søn, 27 01 2008 kl. 22:07 +0100, skrev Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek: Dnia 27-01-2008, nie o godzinie 21:58 +0100, Valent Turkovic pisze: 2008/1/27 Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dnia 27-01-2008, nie o godzinie 15:53 +0100, Valent Turkovic pisze: I found this gtk theme engine [1] with transparency and would love to see it in fedora if possible. What do you thing about it? The screenshots look amazingly beautiful. [1] http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2007/12/12/gtk-rgba-transparent-widgets-with-the-murrine-engine It requires GTK2 from SVN with special patch applied. How special is the special patch ? Will it be incorporated upstream if it doesn't have any horrible bugs and doesn't break anything? Not sure but probably it would be the same situation as with macmenu patch : . Forgotten : . The detached menu patch has not been forgotten, the code was unacceptable for upstream. However now someone has taken the concept and started writing a nicer solution for this which is being evaluated for inclusion. So when detached menu patch hits upstream then this gtk transparent engine will work on all gnome desktops? Awesome! No.. then the mac style menu will work. The alpha transparency patch I haven't followed. signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Tangoish Fedora logo in Mist-inherited default icon theme
ons, 23 01 2008 kl. 17:44 +0100, skrev Martin Sourada: Yes, the tango! styled fedora logo is awesome but I'd wonder if it would pass legal. Anyway, this is IMHO not the proper place to ask in the first place. Since it concerns Fedora logo it should be IMHO asked first at [EMAIL PROTECTED] And only after that, if it is approved, bring the thing on the art list. Peter Gordon and myself have been fighting to get approval for this since, 24th of January 2007 without any kind of resolution. The process is broken.. and we were only asking for approval to use it as the default menu logo in the Fedora Tango package. - David Nielsen signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)
ons, 09 01 2008 kl. 17:13 +0100, skrev Valent Turkovic: On 1/1/08, Máirín Duffy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Valent Turkovic wrote: Did you listen to Linux Action Show podcast review in the link that is provided? They also mention icons and few other issues, but best listen to it if you can. Sorry, I didn't, I don't have much time these days. A summary of actual issues brought up would be helpful. I was away a few days... so the late reply. Mairin please take the time and listen to the podcast, they have really gone into details and especially you as the leader of artwork team should listen to it. If you have flash you can hear it here: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/fedora-8-audio-review/ if you want to listen to if offline here you go: http://www.archive.org/download/Fedora8ReviewlinuxActionShowEp067/Linuxactionshowep067-Fedora8Review.ogg http://www.archive.org/download/Fedora8ReviewlinuxActionShowEp067/Linuxactionshowep067-Fedora8Review_64kb.mp3 Basically that is all subjective opinion on the theme.. other people praised the artwork - in fact most of the reviews I read did so. F8 e.g. was probably the first Fedora theme I really enjoyed, nicely professional and sutle. There, following my subjective review we are doing great... woohoo! Basically Bert and Ernie spend the entire review hating on the artwork instead of actually reviewing the distribution and informing people about the cool stuff we worked on. Which pretty much useless for everyone. So I don't really see how this hatchjob is helpful to anyone.. - David signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Link for official F9 theme proposal
Em Qua, 2007-12-12 às 07:33 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek escreveu: Freedom? I think best symbol of freedom is pidgeon or statue of liberty (or something like that). Maybe an city, like New York, the liberty statue and a pidgeon flying over :] ? That would be a downright insulting display of american nationalistic pride to plenty of people. We really need to select culturally neutral images, I for one, really like what we have in Fedora 8 and I would like to suggest keeping and working on perfecting it instead of replacing the artwork every 6 months entirely. - David signature.asc Description: Esta é uma parte de mensagem assinada digitalmente ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Usability - SIG, Spin, Echo icons [was Re: Icon theme for ubuntu]
tor, 22 11 2007 kl. 09:36 +0100, skrev Martin Sourada: Well, they does not only look smaller, but they also are smaller - you have a wider view when looking at iso perspective than when you reduce to plain 2D head on perspective. When creating new icons we are trying to simplify the 22x22 sizes enough so they should be easily perceptible if though they are in the isometric perspective. I don't see the problems you list, but it might be because I am only a half a metre from the screen (which has 98 DPI). The icons appear only less colourful after applying the filters, but the shape remains well defined. I just walked away from the screen to see which icons would work at that distance - I would disagree that you have well defined shapes to begin with. I also remind you that having a strong black outline helps the brain define the shape which is why the games icon appears to work so well. In 16x16 size all icons in Echo are done in the head on perspective and I have to admit they are usually harder to create than the perspective 22x22 ones... I would heavily argue that for usability and accessibility reasons, the iso prespective needs to not be used for menu icons, they appear way to small and you lose a lot of the shape that we rely on for pattern recognition. Yet, the isometric icons you'll mostly see on the desktop, in file browsers and in the main menus. The rest are either action icons or displayed at 16x16. And for action icons we does not use isometric perspective. The orientation was chosen by Diana and we just follow it, I cannot imagine how the opposite orientation worked better. Why am I suddenly reminded of that old game Lemmings? We are aware of some of the problems listed in the article. That's why we decided to include 22x22 sizes as well. All new created icons should come in 16x16, 22x22, 24x24, 32x32, 48x48 and scalable sizes and should be optimised for these. The shape of the icons is the basic thing and we are doing our best to define it well while retaining more realistic look than tango does. I would much appreciate if you take some time and went through the Echo styling guidelines [1] and point out the problems that leads the icons to not being ally, or propose some additions. Save for the perspective, which we already agreed on (and because of the help of SVG versions it is far more easier to change styling of the icons than their perspective), we are quite open to changes. To be honest, that sounds like a waste of time to me given that I spend an hour typing up a mail with a list of issues for you and you replied that you did not see them. You are really not making a good case for Echo as being able or willing to change to adapt to the needs to the visually impaired, I am more than will to accept that as your choice but it will remain a strong argument against Echo as our default iconset. - David signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Usability - SIG, Spin, Echo icons [was Re: Icon theme for ubuntu]
tor, 22 11 2007 kl. 13:15 +0100, skrev Martin Sourada: On Thu, 2007-11-22 at 11:17 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: I just walked away from the screen to see which icons would work at that distance - I would disagree that you have well defined shapes to begin with. I also remind you that having a strong black outline helps the brain define the shape which is why the games icon appears to work so well. OK, then assume they are not so well defined. BUT. As I look at the filtered images I see no difference as to how well is the shape defined in original and in filtered images. It's just that some details are washed out, but the shape remains defined to same extent (which you think is not enough). Colorblindness as such should only affect the shape definition if you have clashing colors. Shape issues would tend to be more pronounced with poor eyesight such as simulated with a blur filter (I seem to remember jimmac having scripts to automate this). I didn't mean to give the impression that shape was affected by colorblindness, information exchange can be though. Colorblindness will affect the information you convey, it's largely important that you don't depend on things like red indicating bad and green indicating good (as the extreme examples). The absolute best way to avoid that is to regularly take a snapshot of your desktop in real use and run it through VisCheck. If you aren't colorblind it's hard to take it into consideration in the design phase since you are not living with it. The best option is simulation on a regular basis for you as a designer. I can only say I have to disagree. I see there more degrees of freedom when defining 3D (meaning isometric perspective) shape than in defining 2D (meaning head on perspective) shape, which basically means that we are able to further distinguish in 3D between shapes that are indistinguishable in 2D. And I think one should be able to clearly distinguish *between* the shapes. By reducing the surface area you are reducing the effective amount of information carried. That has a pronounced effect on usability and accessibility. Why am I suddenly reminded of that old game Lemmings? Sadly, I don't know this game. It's a fun game, here's a version reimplemented in DHTML: http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/ That I don't see them it does not mean that I don't care about them. I appreciate what you did, but I fail to see the problem there - my eyes or brain just are not capable of seeing the problem where you see it (so your guidance in this matter would be appreciated). You are the one with experience, so if You could help to improve the guidelines, it would make Echo better in the future. And once more to the shape... My eyes aren't so good when seeing distant objects, so I tried to go further from my PC while looking at tritanope image. All shapes there lost their clear differences between themselves more or less at the same time, so when I say I do not see there a problem it means that I do not see it physically, from which one could assume that the problem isn't here, but you say it is here, so I am most likely wrong. Okay remember that eyesight is tricky, the evolution of the human eye has brought about some interesting quirks like the blind spot it's definitely not simple to adjust an interface to suit this complex system. Let alone possible to ensure it works universally. I mean there are good evolutionary reasons why green is a restful color to the eye so we might be tempted to make the whole thing green - that means we have to care deeply about the use of red since a significant amount of users will experience issues with that combination. The general concerns with regards to colorblindness is clashing colors and reliance on specific colors to convey specific information - red/green colorblindness being the most common makes those the prime suspects. This however does not mean you can't use those colors, but that certain combinations are bad. Shape is important and size is important, remember that most people walking around you wear glasses or need them. Also remember that no eyesight correction with glasses is perfect, this means you can win some recognition by going for a clear shape and reducing detail level. Try applying a mild blur to a screenshot. Another great way of testing if the information you are trying to convey is getting across. Switch your language setting and pick something which you know nothing about - I like chinese. If a user can navigate the desktop using only the icons then you win.. big time (also I'll buy you beer and cake since that would be heroic). Optimally we would have a kind of test language that turned every string into -- since that would not be subject to untranslated strings, use of similar words and such that might affect the test subject but for now just picking a language the user doesn't know which has good coverage will suffice. I would propose
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 08:13 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 13:39 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote: I think it's not hard to create professional looking icon theme. Try Echo with Infinity theme - this is proffesional? I don't think so. If it is not hard, why do you do it and come back when you have something to show ? yum install tango-icon-theme, there's something to show. Shall I start filing bugs on all the components in Fedora that currently does not accept an easy theme change such as rhgb, gdm, anaconda and so on (preferredly something like replacing the fedora-artwork package or a similar option). I believe that was the proposed solution we got from the art team the last time, yet no work has gone into enabling said choice of the user. A choice which will be needed since echo has poor accessibility - However this was claimed as not being a target (a complete understandable and acceptable design decision if it wasn't for the fact that the aim is to be our default iconset), despite the rest of the distro aiming for good defaults for handicapped people. Advancements such as PolicyKit are being integrate which will enable using a screen reader on applications which would normally not work, a specific goal on moral grounds as pointed out by davidz in his linux.conf.au 2007 talk Gluing a desktop and a kernel together[1]. Why should our artwork go against such a goal, being handicapped myself and having worked extensively which people suffering from a wide range impairments I can honestly say this group of users have very little choice currently not to mention they are tied to proprietary platforms. Fedora has a clear market opening if we want it, furthermore with laws being the way they are in most countries we cannot be used in government deployments unless we are accessible (Section 508 in the US e.g.). I have mainly been a pain about this because I think it's a moral obligation to ensure that everyone has the option to use Fedora and I believe the default should strive for a mix of good looks and good accessibility - Tango has that and it has good adoption upstream (OpenOffice, GIMP, Jokosher.. many projects default to using Tango icons). The only way to offer Echo, Tango and everything else which is on the table would be to easily allow theme changes for the entire system, not just session icons and select a sensible default - this work has not been done, seeing as the artwork team wants Echo and originally offered this solution I assumed they would be filing the bugs - this however does not seem to be the case. This is not about my personal opinion on the look of Echo, it's about being able to offer the choice of freedom to a group of people who currently has none and expanding our potential userbase. Untill you have seen the change of life quality the ability to communicate and work does to a person who is paralysed from the neck down, I doubt anyone will truly understand. I happen to have seen this, an accessible computer gave this person the option to work 10-15 hours a week - the change in his life cannot be expressed. I would like to see us offer that without the hefty pricetag and exclusion from common applications they currently have. I would like this kind of profound change to be part of what we help give to the world. I think it starts with addressing the most widespread impairments.. eye sight (degraded eye sight, color blindness, etc.). Much of that can be done with good defaults, some requires the option of having e.g. high contrast icons (colorblindness can now been aided by compiz plugins - I'm unsure of the current state of tie in to the accessibility settings). Additionally an option to change the system unified look would make branding for special deployment as well as spins much nicer. Thank you for your time, David Nielsen [1] http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/220.ogg (about 24 mins into the video) http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/220.pdf (as well as page 49 in the slideshow pdf file) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
ons, 21 11 2007 kl. 12:18 -0800, skrev Luya Tshimbalanga: A possible suggestion, why not making a spin release of Fedora that focuses on people who have some disabilities? Again, we have to support this to get in government deployments, which means it needs to be tested. This generally means enabled by default to get good coverage - not to mention that certain QA apps require the AT-SPI framework to work and running with them enabled has proven a great way to find obscure crashers. I believe we currently do not enable it by default purely because it tends to really encourage applications to die.. lots of work to make Fedora great for handicapped people of all shapes and sizes, icons and simple eyesight is one we can fix now, without degrading the look and feel for which Fedora has become known and praised. For some things you could do a special spin, like my paralysed friend might benefit from a Fedora that comes with his work apps, dasher and such. However for the majority, having it be adjustable is a good choice, say you have a company this means just setting the profiles up to fit the employees with sight problems using sabayon - a some what simpler and neater solution. When talking icons and themes, I doubt that is the best reason in the world to create an entire spin. The new gdm e.g. also includes better support for a11y, it seems to me that we are moving towards supporting this by default, at the very least Red Hat who has government contracts will need to do it, why shouldn't Fedora benefit and be a good choice for the impaired? It will mean a lot of work but really it should just be a choice of configuration to opt-out. Overall doing this will mean longterm a less buggy Fedora with a better experience for all, and naturally the option of opt-out as simple as clicking the disable assistance tick box and restarting the session. All I ask is that the artwork by default follow suit, Echo might very well seem like an appealing choice to some and I fully support there being an easy option to theme the entire OS.. it's user freedom, not to mention a damn cool feature if we can make it work (OpenOffice and Firefox spring to mind as hard applications to get good coverage of for all icon themes - I hear FF3 has a patch to use the stock icons from the session, hopefully OOo will eventually go down the same path). Spins are not the hammer that solves all problems - it certainly does not solve the problem in question on all counts. Also what sort of message do we send to handicapped people by making them second class citizens by default? - David signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Usability - SIG, Spin, Echo icons [was Re: Icon theme for ubuntu]
ons, 21 11 2007 kl. 22:31 +0100, skrev Martin Sourada: I think, David, if you know about issues with Echo usability why not point them out? I think we should take a look at it too a reach some consensus between our desires and usability, it is completely useless to make a icon theme which someone, e.g. colourblind people, will have problems using it. I encourage everyone to use same hue for borders so that the shapes would be easily distinguishable even if only used without colours (i.e. grey), for one. It is probably not enough, but it certainly makes them more usable. I tried that in the past, with less than succesful outcome. Colorblind issues however should likely be solved by the compiz plugins, that is free for you guys and solves the problem (hopefully) for the 3 major kinds of colorblindness without having to have 3 additional iconsets differing only in color scheme. I'm unsure if there'll be issues with shape and the appearance of the icons (clashing colors e.g.) but as part of the testing of any theme it might be nice to run a real world desktop image through VisCheck[1]. Likewise we should figure out a way to simulate common vision impairments, people with slightly blurred vision, basically people who need glasses but don't wear them. I'm unsure of any research or products being available to aid in this kind of testing - I suspect we could apply a slight blur filter in gimp to get an idea of how washed out the desktop and applications look. Echo has no defined shape, in my limited testing people with poor eyesight seem to have great difficulty reading information from icons that lack a strong outline. For those users, and there are a lot sadly, the kind of look Tango has seems to yield better results. I'll try to get more test subjects to play with my laptop with the different iconsets to get more input. Basically though, Echo is not designed with this in mind and I suspect reworking Echo would be a lot of work. Aside that I have noticed that emblem use is somewhat odd, you seem to use both + and * to indicate new and add (last time I checked - this might have changed). I filed a bug against this and was basically told there was a reason but not given said reason. I'd love to hear why this kind of confusion is preferable to selecting a standard akin to what Tango has done. As for the suggested spin, I think it is a good idea and I see reasons for it. Yes, surely all the usability features should be available in the classical spins as well, but we don't need to enable all of them by default. Especially the artwork could be optimised specially for people with disabilities and enabled on such a spin. BTW. is there a SIG for usability? As you say, we (Fedora Project) care about usability but the applications does not support it as we'd like, so it would be good to coordinate our efforts to improve the situation. I fundamentally disagree with making handicapped people second class citizens. It's perfectly simple to opt-out, at-spi doesn't draw many ressources and we need it for section 508 compliance. It makes more sense to enable it by default and make the cases like colorblindness a simple configuration option in the a11y capplet that would enable the compiz plugin and configure it for the sight issue. Similar with more extreme sight requirements like high contrast, we can provide it in the theme capplet. The main problem here is that not all of our applications obey the session settings, not to mention there's no option to make it apply to the system. For a single user system, being able to read the test and see the icons even at boot up would be the desirable long term goal. I'd rather work towards fixing those problems and selecting a good default - making a specific spin just for every combination of a11y friendly artwork seems excessive, for special cases it's definitely a good option though, like special tool requirements. I am unaware of the existance of an a11y SIG but usability was handled on the desktop-devel list way back in the day and Daniel Durand I think lead up a SIG on the subject. I think ultimately though that the board (or who ever makes technical decisions like this, there are so many acronyms and groups I get confused as to who does what) should make the decision if accessibility is an overall longterm goal to be prioritised in Fedora or not - then the SIGs can take it into consideration. I will naturally be happy to help with testing. Given time to schedule testing it's likely I can arrange to get any such testing done on demand, I'm fortunate enough to have good relations with a company who exclusively hire handicapped people so we should be well covered in terms of impairments. The access is likely going to be timelimited though, these people suffer and I'd like to not put them through to much so we definitely need to setup some kind of test protocol - this however is not really an artwork issue, we can test most poor sight via simulation. [1]
Re: Usability - SIG, Spin, Echo icons [was Re: Icon theme for ubuntu]
tor, 22 11 2007 kl. 00:37 +0100, skrev Martin Sourada: On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 23:40 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: [1] http://www.vischeck.com/vischeck/ Thanks for the link, to have some material to talk about, I've taken some of the newer Echo icons (all the 'category' icons [1] are done that way, and more or less finished) and run through the filters. I don't see any big issues with them, what do you think? I attach the original, plus the processed images, that are sadly saved in jpeg which does not give the best results... Generally, iso prespective make the icons look smaller, please remember that at this size both detail level and shape affects how easily you can utilize the brains wonderful pattern recognition abilities. I would strip the detail level down as much as possible and go for head on prespective. I would wager that the icons we display most often would be menu ones so they really deserve that extra attention and love. Another consideration with regards to prespective is that orientation matters in preception of size, twisted left seems smaller than twisted right because you appear to show off less surface area. The human brain is a strange beast. Add/Remove Software is very good, easy to spot, good shape use, colors work well across the colorblindness spectrum and it's head on prespective. A really good icon. The graphics icon is very hard to make out. I cannot I have to admit figure out what the office icon is suppose to look like, it does however seem to get better when the colorblindness filters are applied. Also notice how well the shape works for recognition for the games icon, low level of detail - despite even appearing small due to the iso prespective usage. It's also the only one to have a defined outline which really helps make the icon appear crisp and easy to recognize. This makes it work really well in every filter applied and I can make it out without my glasses on even from around 1m away. Where sexy and usable clashes is really the prespective, don't do iso unless at desktop icon size or above, you can candy it up with detail as size increases. Jimmac has a great article on his blog regarding the problems surrounding sizes and scaling icons[1]. [1] http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/?p=177 signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: spins.fpo design
tor, 01 11 2007 kl. 02:45 -0400, skrev Máirín Duffy: Hey folks, Just an update on the spins.fpo design I've been working on. At this point I am sure it will not make f8's release but I'd like to get it up as soon as is reasonable post-release. :) So, remember the mockups i did a while back? I started HTML-ifying them; I just finished with the main content for the spins details mock (still need to add the fpo template to it as well as the icons): - HTML: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/spins/spin-details.html - Mockup: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/spindetailsmock2.png The other HTML I want to do is for this mockup: - Mockup: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/spinsmock5.png (the banner at the top will be replaced with new artwork! something like this: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/spins/djs.png) Overall I think the spins.fpo site should have the following pages: -- main page: introduction to what spins are | |-- spin details page | | | |- bittorrent tutorial | | | |_ what's my arch tutorial | |-- what is a spin / how do i use a spin page | |__ how do i create my own spin? page The open work items I see from a design POV are: 1 - Content for the how to create my own spin page (any suggestions on existing content I can use for this page?) (0% done AFAIK) 2 - Content for the what is a spin / how do i use a spin page? (any suggestions on existing content I can use for this page?) (0% done AFAIK) 3 - Mockups HTML for the 6 pages in the above sitemap (maybe 25% there) 4 - Finish DJ banner artwork for the main page (80% done) 5 - Obtain photos from willing Fedora users to represent the spins (25%, Manuel Amador has provided me photos, I may need to make a formal call for photo submissions or start taking photos of innocent vict^H^H^H^H volunteers around the office :)) 6 - Get all the content into i18n-able templates and into git... Work out a mechanism to generate a details page for each spin and get content into it? (0% done, any ideas?) Eventually I think we will need a spins 'directory' but thus far we have few enough spins we dn't have to worry about that yet. Anyhow, I hope this gives a clear picture of where we're at for the blingtastic spins page; if anybody has answers/suggestions for the open work items above do share :) Maybe we should use the term additional information instead of wiki page The same goes for leechers, that term has sort of a different meaning in real life than it does in the wonderful world of technology, maybe we could use peers instead. Or we could simply label a spin Available or not depending on the presence of a seed then have a request sharing button that would file a bug in case there are no seeds for whatever reason. Might it also be an idea to turn the spin creator title into a link to said persons wiki page if one is available. Aside that, I'm liking the spindetailsmock2.png quite a lot. - David signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: spins.fpo design
tor, 01 11 2007 kl. 09:25 -0700, skrev John Poelstra: Chitlesh GOORAH said the following on 11/01/2007 05:09 AM Pacific Time: On 11/1/07, Máirín Duffy wrote: Hey folks, Anyhow, I hope this gives a clear picture of where we're at for the blingtastic spins page; if anybody has answers/suggestions for the open work items above do share :) This is awesome :) Based on your mockups and your html, this is the best I could do. http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/ I like the: Whoah, I Need Help! What am I downloading here? Could we add a link to a simple useful tutorial on downloading a torrent file and how torrent works? My guess is that if someone has this question, simply telling them they can download it with any Bittorrent client isn't going to help them that much. I saw an implementation of bittorrent that ran in the web browser, I believe it was called bitlets - that would eliminate the problem all together. signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
