Re: Echo vs the destkop
Martin Sourada wrote: On Thu, 2008-09-25 at 17:22 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: In my opinion it's applications fault. The day icon themes were born to the world, people should have accepted the fact and make it possible to change every icon on desktop by looking them up in icon themes. It's not only because the Echo icon theme, we can replace the upstream icons if needed for Fedora, the biggest issue I see there is that it effectively blocks creating themes designed specially for people with disabilities, like HiContrast icon theme. The theming functionality is mostly there already (with 2.24 all of evolution is themeable etc. please file bugs where it's not), but the contributions to HighContrast are few and far between. It would be cool to see more icon creation happening for those. We also fail to support the art communities upstream. Andreas has practically begged you to work with him upstream. We simply don't have enough good artists around to have turf wars over icon sets. I will join him in asking you to work upstream. Unless I pay people, I can only kindly ask them to help us. I think people should be free to work on what they enjoy best. Just wanted to make that clear. - Andreas ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Sat, 2008-09-27 at 12:14 +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote: This sounds interesting and reminds me of a similar project (http://tango.freedesktop.org), but for Fedora only. Not for Fedora only, but for Fedora mainly ;-) However, I have a hard time seeing where the Echo style are a in-between style between GNOME and KDE. Ours look more realistic than gnome, but less the oxygen icons. The perspective choices were done by Diana (based on community input) back when she started with the icon set (back than Fedora was still using Bluecurve), changing those would basically mean to start from the beginning, but I am not exactly opposed to that idea, but I'd rather started such a project parallel to our current Echo... I don't think the differences between KDE style and GNOME style differs that much to begin really, if one compares the following screenshots: http://jakilinux.org/reviews/kde-4-rev-823000/kde4_823000_dolphin_oxygen.jpg http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.24/figures/rnusers.nautilus.tabs.png.en_GB Same perspectives, similar outlines etc. Sightly different colors, KDE drops the outline at 48, GNOME at 128. Oxygen has a lot more lively/glossy colouring and less contrastive outlines for many icons than gnome. Echo tries to be somewhere in-between... The guidelines are not set it stone, and we're happy to change them where needed. - Andreas Same on Echo part. You can think of Echo as an alternative icon theme designed especially for Fedora with both KDE and GNOME in mind. Andreas, are there any areas we might help you other than designing icons (and filling bugs for unthemeable application icons, which we've already started doing with system-config-*)? Although we'd like to continue creating the Echo styled icons, we'd like to help gnome-icon-theme artist as well... Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Martin Sourada wrote: On Thu, 2008-09-25 at 17:22 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: Fedora does not equally support QT/KDE applications. And even if we I'd strongly disagree with that. QT/KDE applications has equal love from the KDE SIG as GTK/Gnome from the Desktop team I'm going to give a benefit of doubt here, and venture that the equal support comment was based on the # of upstream developers involved in Fedora, which the fedora-desktop team has quite a number of, and kde-sig much less so. That said, equal love is not far from the mark either. :) Echo *is* an upstream, even though it's done by Fedora artists and for Fedora. We are interested in creating the Echo icon set... Amen brother. Do what you love, love what you do... -- Rex ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Rex Dieter wrote: Martin Sourada wrote: Echo *is* an upstream, even though it's done by Fedora artists and for Fedora. We are interested in creating the Echo icon set... Amen brother. Do what you love, love what you do... Nobody has the right to say 'stop working on it' and 'go work upstream.' However, people do have a right to say they prefer upstream in Fedora. ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: William Jon McCann a écrit : Hi Bill, On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the experience given. Is that the case? No. I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango icon themes. See the baseset[1]. Also there are issue on system-Administration that neither gnome nor tango addressed that were done on Echo theme. If the system - Administration looks out of place with the rest of the system, does it help to introduce another icon style so the rest of the system looks out of place instead? A icon set is a mighty beast, bigger than it might appear at first. It have taken about 3 years for the 6-7 core icon developers upstream (with several others occasionally helping out) to where it is now. We're welcoming all interested contributors to help out upstream with open arms. I've had a very good experience with working together on with Fedora developers in GNOME and would love for more collaboration to happen. btw, big thanks to Mike Langlie, who did a great job on the icons for Packagekit! - Andreas ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Andreas Nilsson wrote: If the system - Administration looks out of place with the rest of the system, does it help to introduce another icon style so the rest of the system looks out of place instead? But Echi is not going to be used exclusively for the Administration menu, but for the entire menu, so the icons will be consistent. A icon set is a mighty beast, bigger than it might appear at first. It have taken about 3 years for the 6-7 core icon developers upstream (with several others occasionally helping out) to where it is now. We're welcoming all interested contributors to help out upstream with open arms. I've had a very good experience with working together on with Fedora developers in GNOME and would love for more collaboration to happen. Hopefully, we can leverage your experience and make use of the useful things you discovered, like the one canvas workflow or some icon metaphors and don't reinvent the wheel, just paint it differently. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
I think what Andreas means is that when you install an application that is not in the default Fedora install, it's going to look out of place. All the most popular OSS packages now use the same icon style upstream, which is a major achievement, but instead Fedora chooses to do it all over again. It's not very hard to make Echo look integrated with the upstream icons, without losing its characteristics. Echo already got the thick outer stroke, i think what's most out of place is the weird perspective. What you will see happening is toolbars in applications using different kinds of icon perspectives. At least that's what I think of it. I'm not just criticising, but if you agree I will put my money where my mouth is and help out. Hylke On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Nicu Buculei [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas Nilsson wrote: If the system - Administration looks out of place with the rest of the system, does it help to introduce another icon style so the rest of the system looks out of place instead? But Echi is not going to be used exclusively for the Administration menu, but for the entire menu, so the icons will be consistent. A icon set is a mighty beast, bigger than it might appear at first. It have taken about 3 years for the 6-7 core icon developers upstream (with several others occasionally helping out) to where it is now. We're welcoming all interested contributors to help out upstream with open arms. I've had a very good experience with working together on with Fedora developers in GNOME and would love for more collaboration to happen. Hopefully, we can leverage your experience and make use of the useful things you discovered, like the one canvas workflow or some icon metaphors and don't reinvent the wheel, just paint it differently. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Thu, 2008-09-25 at 15:28 +0200, Hylke Bons wrote: I think what Andreas means is that when you install an application that is not in the default Fedora install, it's going to look out of place. All the most popular OSS packages now use the same icon style upstream, which is a major achievement, but instead Fedora chooses to do it all over again. I guess you are wrong here - you are talking only about GTK/Gnome applications, but Fedora equally supports QT/KDE applications, that use totally different style (oxygen). And because we want full desktop integration for both QT and GTK applications we are left with no other choice that create our own icons style that will not clash very much with either of them. The perspective choices were done by Diana when she started the icon set some years ago and we're probably not going to rethink them. Though I would not be against it, if there were enough people working on redoing all the icons with the better perspective. It's not very hard to make Echo look integrated with the upstream icons, without losing its characteristics. Echo already got the thick outer stroke, i think what's most out of place is the weird perspective. What you will see happening is toolbars in applications using different kinds of icon perspectives. Not necessarily. In toolbars there are primarily actions icons that have similar perspective to gnome icons (on the table or flat). At least that's what I think of it. I'm not just criticising, but if you agree I will put my money where my mouth is and help out. Hylke Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Hi, 2008/9/25 Martin Sourada [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, 2008-09-25 at 15:28 +0200, Hylke Bons wrote: I think what Andreas means is that when you install an application that is not in the default Fedora install, it's going to look out of place. All the most popular OSS packages now use the same icon style upstream, which is a major achievement, but instead Fedora chooses to do it all over again. I guess you are wrong here - you are talking only about GTK/Gnome applications, but Fedora equally supports QT/KDE applications, that use totally different style (oxygen). And because we want full desktop integration for both QT and GTK applications we are left with no other choice that create our own icons style that will not clash very much with either of them. The perspective choices were done by Diana when she started the icon set some years ago and we're probably not going to rethink them. Fedora does not equally support QT/KDE applications. And even if we did, there is a difference between supporting the applications and guaranteeing that they integrate perfectly with a GNOME desktop. Even if we did want QT/KDE applications to integrate perfectly into a GNOME desktop, it is not true that the only way to do this is to adopt the Oxygen icon theme styles and metaphors. It is simply not true that your only choice was to create a brand new icon theme. From what I can tell, the Tango icon theme has similar goals, is complete, and has an active community. One problem with icon set proliferation is that it makes it very difficult for applications shipping icons. Remember that not all icons on the screen are part of an icon set. In fact, one of the specific goals of the icon naming standard was to reduce the number of application icons shipped in the theme. We also fail to support the art communities upstream. Andreas has practically begged you to work with him upstream. We simply don't have enough good artists around to have turf wars over icon sets. I will join him in asking you to work upstream. So, I think that the stated reasons for creating a new icon theme are not strong, the icon set is incomplete and inconsistent, makes things more confusing for application developers, and further fractures our already small art community. Though I would not be against it, if there were enough people working on redoing all the icons with the better perspective. Consistency is not the only problem with the Echo icon theme. I propose that we officially switch back to using the upstream icons while we continue to discuss whether a new icon set is in the best interest of our larger community and the Fedora product. Meanwhile, the Echo icons can be improved, completed, and made more consistent. Thanks, Jon ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Thu, 2008-09-25 at 17:22 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: Hi, Hi, Fedora does not equally support QT/KDE applications. And even if we I'd strongly disagree with that. QT/KDE applications has equal love from the KDE SIG as GTK/Gnome from the Desktop team, and I think the KDE SIG guys are trying hard to avert the general opinion that Fedora does not care about KDE. did, there is a difference between supporting the applications and guaranteeing that they integrate perfectly with a GNOME desktop. True, but we'd like to reduce the integration shortcomings to minimum. Even if we did want QT/KDE applications to integrate perfectly into a GNOME desktop, it is not true that the only way to do this is to adopt the Oxygen icon theme styles and metaphors. It is simply not true that your only choice was to create a brand new icon theme. From what I can tell, the Tango icon theme has similar goals, is complete, and has an active community. You got me wrong. What I was trying to say is that Gnome Icon Theme (which is current gnome upstream, Tango is IMHO worse in case of coverage) is designed for gnome, and oxygen is designed for KDE and there is zero probability that gnome switches to oxygen or kde to tango-styled icons. Echo wants to be fit for both. We cannot just prefer one set to the other, it would be unfair to the one that would not be selected, also we'd like to distinguish Fedora look and feel more from other distributions. One problem with icon set proliferation is that it makes it very difficult for applications shipping icons. Remember that not all icons on the screen are part of an icon set. In fact, one of the specific goals of the icon naming standard was to reduce the number of application icons shipped in the theme. In my opinion it's applications fault. The day icon themes were born to the world, people should have accepted the fact and make it possible to change every icon on desktop by looking them up in icon themes. It's not only because the Echo icon theme, we can replace the upstream icons if needed for Fedora, the biggest issue I see there is that it effectively blocks creating themes designed specially for people with disabilities, like HiContrast icon theme. We also fail to support the art communities upstream. Andreas has practically begged you to work with him upstream. We simply don't have enough good artists around to have turf wars over icon sets. I will join him in asking you to work upstream. Echo *is* an upstream, even though it's done by Fedora artists and for Fedora. We are interested in creating the Echo icon set, not the Gnome icon set, nor Oxygen icon set (otherwise we'd be already working on these), yet we'd like to help others as well. That's why we try to work with upstream applications to support icon themes better. So, I think that the stated reasons for creating a new icon theme are not strong, the icon set is incomplete and inconsistent, makes things more confusing for application developers, and further fractures our already small art community. Yet we have already many supporters in our user base, both from KDE and GNOME camps and every new release many people are disappointed that Echo is still not default. I know that's not a reason to include it and that's why I'd like it to be voted on by the camps that have most to say about that - Art Team and Desktop Team (and in case of KDE also the KDE SIG). Though I would not be against it, if there were enough people working on redoing all the icons with the better perspective. Consistency is not the only problem with the Echo icon theme. I propose that we officially switch back to using the upstream icons while we continue to discuss whether a new icon set is in the best interest of our larger community and the Fedora product. Meanwhile, the Echo icons can be improved, completed, and made more consistent. That will be decided by both Art and Desktop teams. I'll accept whatever way they'll decide to go, but the decision is still about a month ahead of us - and that's a plenty of time. Thanks, Jon Thanks, Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 17:53 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the experience given. Is that the case? No, they weren't OK with the current coverage (at least Matthias Clasen) and we are working hard to improve it. Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) With Mist, there are still new gnome styled icons, old gnome styled icons and bluecurve. In some places we reduced the old gnome and bluecurve to minimum, in others not yet. Check the System - Administration menu as an example. - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock icons and the perspective of the main menu logo It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm using (24) much worse than the prior icons. Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system icons provided by Echo? Yep. If you feel some particular icon is missing, it's need-to-have and is not on our todo [1], feel free to ping us about it. Bill Our general idea is that some time around the final freeze it will be decided by art and desktop teams whether we are ready. If not, echo will be pulled back and submitted again for F11. I'd be for voting, enabled for art and desktop fas groups members regarding this issue. Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Matthias Clasen wrote: I'm the last desktop team member on fedora-art-list, but I'm not a representative, and I have no way to reconcile the wildly varying opinions inside the desktop team when it comes to style and quality of the default icon theme. But I promise you, we don't bite... I invite more people from the desktop team to the art list, we are doing a lot of things related to the desktop so your input would be really useful. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Quoting Matthias Clasen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 22:09 -0400, MáirÃn Duffy wrote: Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:22 -0700, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: Bill Nottingham a écrit : Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) I think Bluecurve mix are desktop bug. Current Fedora default theme used Bluecurve from some applications, same issue occurs on all icons theme. - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons Please point out where we still have bluecurve icons in the default install. I don't see how that would happen. The inheritance of the Fedora icon theme in rawhide is: Fedora - Echo - Mist - gnome (- hicolor) I have seen bluecurve icons in rawhide's applications menu, but I think they are there because the 'upstream' apps use bluecurve style icons. For example, the SELinux Troubleshooter and the SELinux Management Tool. I think those should either be replaced with Echo icons or overrided with Echo icons when Echo is installed, right? Oh, yeah. Good point. *Writin for OLPC XO*,There are reported bugs related to hardcoded icons for system-config* that have not been addressed via Bugzilla. Echo is using symlink as workaround. -- Luya Tshimbalanga Fedora Project contributor http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/LuyaTshimbalanga ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Yep. If you feel some particular icon is missing, it's need-to-have and is not on our todo [1], feel free to ping us about it. Sorry, I forgot to add reference: [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/BaseSet Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Hi Martin, thanks for this useful link. We (KDE SIG) are trying to use Echo theme as default for KDE but currently there are still some icons missing. We are preparing list of to-be-done icons. So can we fill it as ticket for echo-icon-theme and edit Todo on Wiki? I really like Echo theme and it's amazing work from you and Art Team! Thank you! R. - Martin Sourada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep. If you feel some particular icon is missing, it's need-to-have and is not on our todo [1], feel free to ping us about it. Sorry, I forgot to add reference: [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/BaseSet Martin ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: Quoting Máirín Duffy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is it realistic to expect this to happen? Anything that thought to be unrealistic can happen. =) Sure, but does upstream gnome have any plans to echo-ify their icons? I think I'm on gnome-art-list and I've seen nothing there indicating this. It's not just going to happen. And I'm not sure it's a great idea. Why would they do this? ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Wed, 2008-09-24 at 07:24 -0400, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: Hi Martin, thanks for this useful link. We (KDE SIG) are trying to use Echo theme as default for KDE but currently there are still some icons missing. We are preparing list of to-be-done icons. So can we fill it as ticket for echo-icon-theme and edit Todo on Wiki? I really like Echo theme and it's amazing work from you and Art Team! Thank you! R. I am not sure if we allowed write rights on wiki to everyone, but you can send the list, when it's done, to the art-list or make a new ticket for it, depends on what you prefer. I'll transfer it to the wiki then. Thank you as well, Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Wed, 2008-09-24 at 07:48 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote: Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: Quoting Máirín Duffy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is it realistic to expect this to happen? Anything that thought to be unrealistic can happen. =) Sure, but does upstream gnome have any plans to echo-ify their icons? I think I'm on gnome-art-list and I've seen nothing there indicating this. It's not just going to happen. And I'm not sure it's a great idea. Why would they do this? Me too. I think it just don't make sense to make echo from gnome icons or the other way round. They're two different icon themes and should stay such - but compatible when it comes to metaphors. Apart from that, while gnome icon theme strives to be default icon theme gnome-wide, echo would like to be default fedora-wide (in the future). It has the caveats that we need to maintain some amount of compatibility with both gnome icon theme (gnome default) and oxygen icon theme (KDE4 default) to keep the dissonances low. Also it has the pros that we can better focus on covering fedora/redhat specific apps, like system-config-* that the other icon themes are overlooking/ignoring. Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
- Martin Sourada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apart from that, while gnome icon theme strives to be default icon theme gnome-wide, echo would like to be default fedora-wide (in the future). It has the caveats that we need to maintain some amount of compatibility with both gnome icon theme (gnome default) and oxygen icon theme (KDE4 default) to keep the dissonances low. Also it has the pros that we can better focus on covering fedora/redhat specific apps, like system-config-* that the other icon themes are overlooking/ignoring. I like the idea of Fedora-wide icon theme and Echo icon theme. It can cover differences between Gnome KDE in the future and as you said we need it for system-configs and other Fedora related applications too. R. Martin ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Martin Sourada wrote: Apart from that, while gnome icon theme strives to be default icon theme gnome-wide, echo would like to be default fedora-wide (in the future). It has the caveats that we need to maintain some amount of compatibility with both gnome icon theme (gnome default) and oxygen icon theme (KDE4 default) to keep the dissonances low. Also it has the pros that we can better focus on covering fedora/redhat specific apps, like system-config-* that the other icon themes are overlooking/ignoring. One of the things it can help fix is gaps in the icon theme specification as well. Rahul ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Echo vs the destkop
When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the experience given. Is that the case? Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock icons and the perspective of the main menu logo It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm using (24) much worse than the prior icons. Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system icons provided by Echo? Bill ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Hi Bill, On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the experience given. Is that the case? No. Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock icons and the perspective of the main menu logo It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm using (24) much worse than the prior icons. Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system icons provided by Echo? I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango icon themes. In my opinion, we should: 1. Not use the Echo icons for Fedora 10 2. Encourage Fedora artists to become involved with the upstream GNOME and Tango artist communities Thanks, Jon ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
William Jon McCann wrote: Hi Bill, On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the experience given. Is that the case? No. I had thought Matthias volunteered to serve as the Desktop team representative. He had outlined a plan here which is what the Echo folks have been following: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-September/msg00044.html I also was under the understanding that Echo was set as the default in rawhide to enable the folks working on it a chance to get fuller coverage, and that if it was deemed to not have appropriate coverage, it would be pulled. But I'm not directly involved in any of that, I think these were things brought up in the FESCO meeting about the Echo feature. Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock icons and the perspective of the main menu logo It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm using (24) much worse than the prior icons. Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system icons provided by Echo? I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango icon themes. The Echo artists have been working hard at improving the coverage. If it is not there in time for the preview release, I presume they would try again for F11. Martin and Luya and perhaps FESCO can probably speak more and better to this. ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:47 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote: I had thought Matthias volunteered to serve as the Desktop team representative. He had outlined a plan here which is what the Echo folks have been following: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-September/msg00044.html I'm the last desktop team member on fedora-art-list, but I'm not a representative, and I have no way to reconcile the wildly varying opinions inside the desktop team when it comes to style and quality of the default icon theme. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:47 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote: I had thought Matthias volunteered to serve as the Desktop team representative. He had outlined a plan here which is what the Echo folks have been following: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-September/msg00044.html I'm the last desktop team member on fedora-art-list, but I'm not a representative, and I have no way to reconcile the wildly varying opinions inside the desktop team when it comes to style and quality of the default icon theme. Oh okay, sorry for misunderstanding. ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
William Jon McCann a écrit : Hi Bill, On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the experience given. Is that the case? No. I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango icon themes. See the baseset[1]. Also there are issue on system-Administration that neither gnome nor tango addressed that were done on Echo theme. In my opinion, we should: 1. Not use the Echo icons for Fedora 10 2. Encourage Fedora artists to become involved with the upstream GNOME and Tango artist communities The aim was to get ready before the preview release version will be out. With the given time, we (particulary Martin and I) work hard despite the lack of manpower and the calling for assistance Fesco asks to fix essential icons which are currently addressed on fedorahosted.org. Latest snapshot are available on git repostory. Need to remind Gnome/Tango artists are keeping eyes on on Echo. Luya References: [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/BaseSet signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Bill Nottingham a écrit : Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) I think Bluecurve mix are desktop bug. Current Fedora default theme used Bluecurve from some applications, same issue occurs on all icons theme. - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons On Todo list. - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock icons and the perspective of the main menu logo Problem is Fedora logo cannot be modified according to guideline thus perspective cannot be used. It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm using (24) much worse than the prior icons. They were derived the old method before new techniques[1](echo-artist scripts derived from jimmac one canvas template[2]) were applied recently. Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system icons provided by Echo? For the former, it can be possible as long more people participate. For the latter, upstream gnome can be echofied following the guideline[3]. Luya References: [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/AddingNewIconSet [2] http://pastebin.ca/1071599 [3] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/Guidelines signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: For the former, it can be possible as long more people participate. For the latter, upstream gnome can be echofied following the guideline[3]. Is it realistic to expect this to happen? ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:22 -0700, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: Bill Nottingham a écrit : Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) I think Bluecurve mix are desktop bug. Current Fedora default theme used Bluecurve from some applications, same issue occurs on all icons theme. - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons Please point out where we still have bluecurve icons in the default install. I don't see how that would happen. The inheritance of the Fedora icon theme in rawhide is: Fedora - Echo - Mist - gnome (- hicolor) Bluecurve doesn't come into play. Unfortunately, we still have to install Bluecurve by default, for the cursor theme. Longer-term, it might be worthwhile to find a newer, separately packaged cursor theme to use instead of the aging Bluecurve cursors. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:22 -0700, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: Bill Nottingham a écrit : Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) I think Bluecurve mix are desktop bug. Current Fedora default theme used Bluecurve from some applications, same issue occurs on all icons theme. - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons Please point out where we still have bluecurve icons in the default install. I don't see how that would happen. The inheritance of the Fedora icon theme in rawhide is: Fedora - Echo - Mist - gnome (- hicolor) I have seen bluecurve icons in rawhide's applications menu, but I think they are there because the 'upstream' apps use bluecurve style icons. For example, the SELinux Troubleshooter and the SELinux Management Tool. I think those should either be replaced with Echo icons or overrided with Echo icons when Echo is installed, right? ~m ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Echo vs the destkop
On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 22:09 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote: Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:22 -0700, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: Bill Nottingham a écrit : Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) I think Bluecurve mix are desktop bug. Current Fedora default theme used Bluecurve from some applications, same issue occurs on all icons theme. - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons Please point out where we still have bluecurve icons in the default install. I don't see how that would happen. The inheritance of the Fedora icon theme in rawhide is: Fedora - Echo - Mist - gnome (- hicolor) I have seen bluecurve icons in rawhide's applications menu, but I think they are there because the 'upstream' apps use bluecurve style icons. For example, the SELinux Troubleshooter and the SELinux Management Tool. I think those should either be replaced with Echo icons or overrided with Echo icons when Echo is installed, right? Oh, yeah. Good point. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
