Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:36:17 -0500, QF == Qianqian Fang fan...@gmail.com wrote: QF I think this basically means the Japanese fonts are now QF having higher QF priorities under non-CJK locales, is this really what we QF want? Current fontconfig policy doesn't really helps in this case. if one really wants to see a text with proper font, they need to set PANGO_LANGUAGE with the appropriate locales ordered or embed Pango attributes in text for GNOME. However right now cjkunifonts fontconfig config affected Japanese desktop too because current fontconfig policy in Fedora suggests having a recipe to override default substitution lists for specific locale and all of Japanese fonts has already followed these rules, but cjkunifonts didn't and fontconfig reads it prior to Japanese fonts'. -- Akira TAGOH pgpFJibMqg0v2.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
Le Mar 24 février 2009 05:39, Roozbeh Pournader a écrit : I can't relate these two. By the same reasoning, Fraktur fonts would compete with modern Latin fonts, Urdu fonts would compete with Arabic fonts, and Hindi fonts would compete with Marathi fonts. I suspect the only reason that does not happen is we have a lot more CJK packages than Arabic packages (and no Fraktur packages that I know of). Font packagers competing with each other in pushing their fonts is not acceptable either. If that doesn't stop, we should perhaps centralize our fontconfig configuration files to avoid such fontconfig wars. It's not really a centralizing problem. If we had a clear official clean way to write fontconfig cjk rules I'd happily crack down on packagers not using them. Right now we haven't really, so I refrain. Nevertheless CJK fonts easily account for 80% of our reported font bug. It would be nice if our intended priorities and fontconfig settings for CJK fonts were documented somewhere (for every concerned locale). Then I could pester Behdad so he tells us how to achieve them cleanly. Right now, I'm not even sure this is clear to anyone but the concerned packagers. And every time I open a CJK fontconfig file I see magic of the blackest sort. Sincerely, -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
Jens Petersen a écrit : I think the particular problem here under F10 is https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=485562 Hello, In OpenOffice (for exemple), I have always written in Japanese with the default font (DejaVu Sans .) But in fact if I write with vlgothic it's good. Also, if I force the system with vlgothic is also good. The problem would be DejaVu Sans (think) (sorry for my english) ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
On Tuesday 24 February 2009, AKanda wrote: Jens Petersen a écrit : I think the particular problem here under F10 is https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=485562 Hello, In OpenOffice (for exemple), I have always written in Japanese with the default font (DejaVu Sans .) But in fact if I write with vlgothic it's good. Also, if I force the system with vlgothic is also good. The problem would be DejaVu Sans (think) That would be very awkard since DejaVu doesn't have any CJK glyphs. What's happening is that for your Sans font selection, it will get translated by rules in the fontconfig configuration files (basically a list of fonts telling what to use for Sans), and it chooses the first font in the list that's capable of showing the displayed script. So in your case it chooses DejaVu to display Latin, and when it encounters CJK glyphs, fontconfig has no idea whether it's Chinese or Japanese, and so selects the first font in the list with the necessary glyphs, and that's a Chinese font. The solution is to move your VLGothic font above the Chinese font in that list. Greetings Ben ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Roozbeh Pournader wrote: It would be nice if our intended priorities and fontconfig settings for CJK fonts were documented somewhere (for every concerned locale). Then I could pester Behdad so he tells us how to achieve them cleanly. Right now, I'm not even sure this is clear to anyone but the concerned packagers. And every time I open a CJK fontconfig file I see magic of the blackest sort. I have patched the cjkuni-fonts on rawhide (and cjkunifonts on f10) which priority of such Chinese fonts are at higher priority in condition of zh (Chinese) locale. The fedora 10 patch will be pushed to update-testing very soon. - - kaio - -- Caius Chance, Soft Eng, I18N, Red Hat APAC, cchance AT redhat DOT com JP (Qual), RHCE, MCSE, CCNA, JLPT4, http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmkyAYACgkQmo+B7bGj5dJ0LACfQsMIHrQb4oxv0xrn7ULeGwGc nyEAnAx77c1Yo2NQzaStpbX0F4/5jgK9 =C40I -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
Caius kaio Chance wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Roozbeh Pournader wrote: It would be nice if our intended priorities and fontconfig settings for CJK fonts were documented somewhere (for every concerned locale). Then I could pester Behdad so he tells us how to achieve them cleanly. Right now, I'm not even sure this is clear to anyone but the concerned packagers. And every time I open a CJK fontconfig file I see magic of the blackest sort. I have patched the cjkuni-fonts on rawhide (and cjkunifonts on f10) which priority of such Chinese fonts are at higher priority in condition of zh (Chinese) locale. I think this basically means the Japanese fonts are now having higher priorities under non-CJK locales, is this really what we want? The fedora 10 patch will be pushed to update-testing very soon. - - kaio - -- Caius Chance, Soft Eng, I18N, Red Hat APAC, cchance AT redhat DOT com JP (Qual), RHCE, MCSE, CCNA, JLPT4, http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmkyAYACgkQmo+B7bGj5dJ0LACfQsMIHrQb4oxv0xrn7ULeGwGc nyEAnAx77c1Yo2NQzaStpbX0F4/5jgK9 =C40I -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Fedora-i18n-list mailing list fedora-i18n-l...@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
Le jeudi 19 février 2009 à 20:30 +0100, AKanda a écrit : Hello, Hi Akanda, The last update for VLgothicsvlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10.noarch is perhaps not good. (Install by yum.) Sorry for the delay, I was hoping other CJK users would answer, I don't use CJK myself. Chinese, Korean and Japanese fonts are an old source of pain for font packagers, due to: 1. the way Unicode.org decided it would be a good idea to have them share codepoints (Han unification), so CJK packagers compete with each other to make their pet font the default 2. the complexity of the associated glyphs, that make some users claim bitmap fonts should be preferred to vector fonts at small sizes (of course others disagree, and latin users clearly prefer bitmap fonts, except when people are not careful they change both instead of just one). Almost every single CJK update breaks things, and we can not freeze CJK fonts as new releases and new fonts are requested by users. I can unfortunately not offer a lot of help. CJK problems can only be fixed by CJK users. We need more CJK people to install various combinations of CJK packages and check they do the right thing for every CJK locale. If you have the time please test various combinaisons of CJK fonts in F10 (or better rawhide) and report your findings in bugzilla. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Checking_fontconfig_rules Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
Chinese, Korean and Japanese fonts are an old source of pain for font packagers, due to: ... CJK information processing being very hard to do correctly. See Ken Lunde's amazing 900-page tome, CJKV Information Processing, which recently appeared in its second edition: http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514471/ 1. the way Unicode.org decided it would be a good idea to have them share codepoints (Han unification), so CJK packagers compete with each other to make their pet font the default I can't relate these two. By the same reasoning, Fraktur fonts would compete with modern Latin fonts, Urdu fonts would compete with Arabic fonts, and Hindi fonts would compete with Marathi fonts. Font packagers competing with each other in pushing their fonts is not acceptable either. If that doesn't stop, we should perhaps centralize our fontconfig configuration files to avoid such fontconfig wars. On a separate note, it wasn't unicode.org who decided to unify Han characters. It was a consensus effort, supported by various national standardization bodies, including those of China, Japan, and Korea. Please don't spread FUD ;-) You can read about the actual history of Han Unification here: http://unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/appE.pdf Roozbeh ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
1. the way Unicode.org decided it would be a good idea to have them share codepoints (Han unification), Using unified code points to represent Han glyphs is nothing wrong, the only issue is the current fonts and fontconfig are not capable of distinguishing the z-variants, as Unicode consortium proposed. so CJK packagers compete with each other to make their pet font the default I think it is quite the opposite: this happens most often when people are trying to read CJK text under non-CJK locales. Pango does not assume language preference, and it falls into a mixed situation where both the context language and the fall-back font sequence in fontconfig (likely 65-nonlatin) play together to determine the font to select, and the results are messy. It would have been better if one of the Han variants is the default when this happens, for example, the one that covers the most unicode code points, at least, all the characters will have uniform font styles, rather than the mosaics from many CJK fonts. ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Re: Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
I think the particular problem here under F10 is https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=485562 - Qianqian Fang fan...@gmail.com wrote: I think it is quite the opposite: this happens most often when people are trying to read CJK text under non-CJK locales. Pango does not assume language preference, and it falls into a mixed situation where both the context language and the fall-back font sequence in fontconfig (likely 65-nonlatin) play together to determine the font to select, and the results are messy. It would have been better if one of the Han variants is the default when this happens, for example, the one that covers the most unicode code points, at least, all the characters will have uniform font styles, rather than the mosaics from many CJK fonts. Hmm, maybe we should define PANGO_LANGUAGE for non CJK locale, but to which value. Well guess most points would be zh? ;) Jens ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
Problem : japanese-fonts (vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10)
Hello, The last update for VLgothics vlgothic-fonts-20090204-2.fc10.noarch is perhaps not good. (Install by yum.) Since this update, the japanese-fonts of my system (all my sytem : nautilus, openoffice, website ...) is not beautifull. For see thumbnail exemple : http://forums.fedora-fr.org/viewtopic.php?id=39426 But, I can't solve this problem by myself. Best Regards, -- Ben ___ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list
