Re: Updating methods
On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 09:57:08 -0400, Jud wrote: On 08/16/2009 09:51 AM, Garry T. Williams wrote: On Sunday 16 August 2009 00:15:59 Tim wrote: Windows users...hoping...doing the exact same thing over and over will generate a different result. That's insane. What really blows your mind is that sometimes, it -ACTUALLY DOES-. No, no, no. It's the same with yum clean metadata already. You clean the cached repo metadata files, and the next time you run Yum, you are assigned to a different mirror that carries older/same/newer contents, which in turn influences the results you see. There is really no reason to delete cached packages in addition to deleting cached metadata. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
Would somebody please explain to me, again, in words of one syllable, why we're putting up with all the un-Linux-like rebooting? What am I gaining on my machines, or losing on hers?? Updated libraries for apps that are running. Basically if you know what you are doing you can look at what updated and restart a few daemons or tell the user to log out and log back in, or restart firefox and so on. PackageKit is a bit brainless in this area (but on the other hand takes the right default - safety first). Send patches to package kit to make it smarter and know about reboot v restart daenons v relogin. That probably also needs some packaging changes and some extra triggers so its not trivial. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sunday 16 August 2009 00:15:59 Tim wrote: doing the exact same thing over and over will generate a different result. That's insane. -- Garry T. Williams --- +1 678 656-4579 -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On 08/16/2009 09:51 AM, Garry T. Williams wrote: On Sunday 16 August 2009 00:15:59 Tim wrote: Windows users...hoping...doing the exact same thing over and over will generate a different result. That's insane. What really blows your mind is that sometimes, it -ACTUALLY DOES-. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sun, 2009-08-16 at 14:46 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: Would somebody please explain to me, again, in words of one syllable, why we're putting up with all the un-Linux-like rebooting? What am I gaining on my machines, or losing on hers?? Updated libraries for apps that are running. Basically if you know what you are doing you can look at what updated and restart a few daemons or tell the user to log out and log back in, or restart firefox and so on. I've had an idea at the back of my mind for quite a while now that it wouldn't be beyond a smart hacker to detect when the loaded libraries are different from the installed ones. This could either be done statically (look at the mapped segments in memory) or at library install time -- if the .so is currently in use then make a note of which apps are linked to it before replacing it with the updated one. The latter could be built-in to the rpm code. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Updating methods
I've been dutifully updating my own machines with gpk-update- viewer; but ssh -X for some reason doesn't seem to handle it well when I update my wife's, on another floor. So, rather than bite off more troubleshooting than I can hope to chew, I've just gone back to plain ssh to my userid on her machine, then su - , then yum clean all followed by yum update. This practice rubs my nose in all the reboots that PackageKit keeps demanding, since yum never does. They're very irritating, since I always have things in process on my own machines waiting for me to get the proper round tuits -- and many of those, such as instances of Dillo, do not survive rebooting. Would somebody please explain to me, again, in words of one syllable, why we're putting up with all the un-Linux-like rebooting? What am I gaining on my machines, or losing on hers?? -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Saturday 15 August 2009 19:33:32 Beartooth wrote: I've been dutifully updating my own machines with gpk-update- viewer; but ssh -X for some reason doesn't seem to handle it well when I update my wife's, on another floor. So, rather than bite off more troubleshooting than I can hope to chew, I've just gone back to plain ssh to my userid on her machine, then su - , then yum clean all followed by yum update. This practice rubs my nose in all the reboots that PackageKit keeps demanding, since yum never does. They're very irritating, since I always have things in process on my own machines waiting for me to get the proper round tuits -- and many of those, such as instances of Dillo, do not survive rebooting. Would somebody please explain to me, again, in words of one syllable, why we're putting up with all the un-Linux-like rebooting? What am I gaining on my machines, or losing on hers?? I'm surprised you are being asked to reboot frequently. However, that all depends on your definition of 'frequently'. If you install a new kernel you need to reboot to use it. If your desktop does a serious update, such as moving from KDE 4.2 to KDE 4.3, you need to log out, and start a new desktop session. There may be one or two other conditions that people want to point out, but these are the main ones that I consider. Anne -- New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org Just found a cool new feature? Add it to UserBase signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 06:33:32PM +, Beartooth wrote: Would somebody please explain to me, again, in words of one syllable, why we're putting up with all the un-Linux-like rebooting? What am I gaining on my machines, or losing on hers?? I'll give a plain answer but I'll keep it off-list. All this *Kit stuff is bringing the worst of Windows to Linux, and it's being done in a way that completely subverts a normal Unix-like system. Someone should stop this madness. Ciao, -- FA Io lo dico sempre: l'Italia è troppo stretta e lunga. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
2009/8/15 Fons Adriaensen f...@kokkinizita.net: All this *Kit stuff is bringing the worst of Windows to Linux, and it's being done in a way that completely subverts a normal Unix-like system. Someone should stop this madness. Ha, that's funny! Basically, the problem is that Linux is quite capable of running old versions of libraries that no longer exist. But imagine this scenario: User is using gimp. pidgin has an update, that fixes a remote exploitable crash. User updates software. User is still using old version that has been updated, and is still exploitable. User needs to log out and back in, or restart all pidgin instances. User is using firefox. openssl has a security update. User updates software. Firefox is still using old version of the library that is insecure. User needs to restart the computer, so that all daemons and user software using openssl load and start using the new version. Or they could switch to run level 1 and then back to 5, although that's pretty much a restart in my book. So sure, you don't /have/ to reboot, but you're not going to get the benefit (or the protection) of the newly installed updates until you do. Thinking otherwise is incorrect. You might have thought that Linux is magic and can update shared libraries behind the scenes and programs automatically switch to the new installed instance, but it can't, sorry. Richard. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
2009/8/15 Beartooth bearto...@comcast.net: I've been dutifully updating my own machines with gpk-update- viewer; but ssh -X for some reason doesn't seem to handle it well when I update my wife's, on another floor. So, rather than bite off more troubleshooting than I can hope to chew, I've just gone back to plain ssh to my userid on her machine, then su - , then yum clean all followed by yum update. You need to change the authorisations in polkit-gnome-authorization before PackageKit will let you do trusted stuff without being on console. Richard. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sat, 2009-08-15 at 18:33 +, Beartooth wrote: I've just gone back to plain ssh to my userid on her machine, then su - , then yum clean all followed by yum update. Why the yum clean all? It's almost never necessary to do this unless your yum database is screwed up. All your doing is wasting time downloading stuff again. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:41:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Sat, 2009-08-15 at 18:33 +, I Beartooth wrote: I've just gone back to plain ssh to my userid on her machine, then su - , then yum clean all followed by yum update. Why the yum clean all? It's almost never necessary to do this unless your yum database is screwed up. All your doing is wasting time downloading stuff again. Really? I've been doing it so long I don't even remember where I picked it up. Once or twice something seemed to work better after that command, so I made a habit of it. Did it use to help more often? I've been around longer than yum -- and still mean what my .sig says -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 20:04:16 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: [] So sure, you don't /have/ to reboot, but you're not going to get the benefit (or the protection) of the newly installed updates until you do. Thinking otherwise is incorrect. You might have thought that Linux is magic and can update shared libraries behind the scenes and programs automatically switch to the new installed instance, but it can't, sorry. IOW, all those people with little auto-updaters in their .sigs saying how long they've been running are asking for trouble?? -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 20:05:33 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: 2009/8/15 Beartooth bearto...@comcast.net: I've been dutifully updating my own machines with gpk-update- viewer; but ssh -X for some reason doesn't seem to handle it well when I update my wife's, on another floor. So, rather than bite off more troubleshooting than I can hope to chew, I've just gone back to plain ssh to my userid on her machine, then su - , then yum clean all followed by yum update. You need to change the authorisations in polkit-gnome-authorization before PackageKit will let you do trusted stuff without being on console. Well, that makes sense; and I presume you mean the executable in / usr/bin, rather than the config file in /usr/share/applications; but ouch! There are scads of them! -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
Hi Richard, On Saturday 15 August 2009 12:04 PM, Richard Hughes wrote: Basically, the problem is that Linux is quite capable of running old versions of libraries that no longer exist. But imagine this scenario: ...snip So sure, you don't /have/ to reboot, but you're not going to get the benefit (or the protection) of the newly installed updates until you do. Thinking otherwise is incorrect. You might have thought that Linux is magic and can update shared libraries behind the scenes and programs automatically switch to the new installed instance, but it can't, sorry. I think I have noticed this a number of times, but I am not exactly sure. PackageKit seems to not differentiate between logouts and restarts. So after kernel updates it would say restart is needed which is perfectly reasonable, but it would say the same for something requiring just a logout. Am I remembering incorrectly or have others noticed this too? If that is indeed the case then the OP's problems might be related and this could be a bug in packagekit. Thank you. -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 13:53:20 -0700 Suvayu Ali wrote: So after kernel updates it would say restart is needed which is perfectly reasonable, but it would say the same for something requiring just a logout. I just saw this happen on this computer: It told me that I needed to log out and log back in and asked if I wanted to do that. I said yes, and it brought up the shutdown/halt/reboot menu. So it seems to know what's needed but brings up the shutdown menu anyway. -- MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Melville Sask ~ http://www.melvilletheatre.com -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sat, 2009-08-15 at 20:37 +, Beartooth wrote: On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:41:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Sat, 2009-08-15 at 18:33 +, I Beartooth wrote: I've just gone back to plain ssh to my userid on her machine, then su - , then yum clean all followed by yum update. Why the yum clean all? It's almost never necessary to do this unless your yum database is screwed up. All your doing is wasting time downloading stuff again. Really? I've been doing it so long I don't even remember where I picked it up. Once or twice something seemed to work better after that command, so I made a habit of it. Did it use to help more often? I've been around longer than yum -- and still mean what my .sig says yum clean all simply removes metadata and packages from the local cache, i.e. it effectively negates any advantage of using the cache at all. It's *occasionally* recommended to do this to fix problems with the database and force a complete reload (though more common is yum clean metadata which keeps the package rpms themselves) but it's definitely not something you want to just do automatically every time. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
On Sat, 2009-08-15 at 20:43 +, Beartooth wrote: On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 20:04:16 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: [] So sure, you don't /have/ to reboot, but you're not going to get the benefit (or the protection) of the newly installed updates until you do. Thinking otherwise is incorrect. You might have thought that Linux is magic and can update shared libraries behind the scenes and programs automatically switch to the new installed instance, but it can't, sorry. IOW, all those people with little auto-updaters in their .sigs saying how long they've been running are asking for trouble?? Other than reboots forced by power outages or changing hardware, IIRC you need to reboot 1) when you install a new kernel, 2) when you install a new version of glibc, and 3) if you turn SElinux off or on. Practically everything else can be managed without rebooting, though for many people (especially desktop users) it's easier just to do it rather than work out if it's required. Note that updating Gnome or KDE does *not* require a reboot. Just log out and in again. The same goes for X itself. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Updating methods
Patrick O'Callaghan: Why the yum clean all? It's almost never necessary to do this unless your yum database is screwed up. All your doing is wasting time downloading stuff again. Beartooth: Really? I've been doing it so long I don't even remember where I picked it up. Probably from some dumb advice on this list. I keep seeing people stupidly say do yum clean all to solve some problem. I say stupidly, because they offer the advice without good reason, or when it's got absolutely nothing to do with the problem. It's the same as Windows users blindly doing reboot reinstall. Hoping that for some strange reason, doing the exact same thing over and over will generate a different result. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
