Re: setting X server DPI
On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 17:40 -0500, Michael Hennebry wrote: Ideally, the X server has the correct DPIs and the application is written to use them. The application can discover the number of pixels in a 12pt font and enlarge or not depending on the answer and the purpose. Given that many applications don't do that, lying about the DPIs is a perfectly sensible thing to do. That isn't good for applications that would otherwise do the right thing. The problem is that when you abuse something to fake something to suit someone who doesn't know how to do things right, you break things that everyone else *needs* to work properly. Because it's done WRONG, we can't use it right. We can't specify our DPI correctly, and get fonts drawn correctly. We have to bodge *everything*, and *nothing* is correct. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.19-78.2.30.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
Tim: i.e. 12 point text is the same size whether printed on 2 inches of paper, or 20 inches of paper. Tom Horsley: Absolutely true, and absolutely the point. If you specify a 12 point font on a 46 1920x1080 display, you will wind up drawing some random smudge of bits that is indeed able to fit on a line that is 12/72 of an inch high, but there aren't enough frigging pixels to render the font in any fashion that makes it remotely possible to discern what the character actually represents. As long as all the software in the universe insists on defaulting to things like 9 or 12 point fonts for menu items and login screens no sane person would want the default DPI to actually match the hardware because they couldn't possibly read what it says enough to even find the dialog box they need to fix it. So fix up the things that do it wrong, like DON'T specify stupidly small fonts. Don't BUGGER UP EVERYTHING else. If your experience is so limited that you cannot understand that stuffing up measurement systems so that *nothing* works right, you're not in a position to argue this point. This is computing, we need the computer to do what it's told, to be 100% predictable so you can control it under all circumstances (print on screen, paper, A4 sheets, posters, etc.). You, or the system, cannot be taken serious when you have to tell a system to use 64 point text to actually at print 12 point size. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.19-78.2.30.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
On Sun, 2009-03-08 at 11:44 -0600, Petrus de Calguarium wrote: 96x96 should be the default. I don't know why it isn't. No. The DPI should be set to the values that actually represent the hardware. Font sizing, and the like, should be set by picking the font size you want, not buggering up the DPI. Set that wrong, and you make it impossible for other things to do their job right. Graphics card pixel counts are the number of dots per scan line that you have available to draw something with (definition). Visual display device DPI is the tiniest noticeable detail that can be resolved. The two are interrelated, but people often get one thing wrong - with CRTs it's still quite good to draw to the display with more detail than it can display, you get smoother detail. For LCDs, you really need 1:1 configuration between graphics card and display device. GUI sizing, an important and often overlooked thing, should be set as an independent value. That used to be easily done on window managers that I've seen in the past. Tiny buttons are a major pain, and so is the converse - absurdly huge buttons wasting space on low resolution displays. Anyone who thinks that increasing the resolution *should* create smaller fonts, or GUI gadgets, has got it extremely wrong. And that includes all the programmers who stupidly do that. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.15-78.2.23.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
On Tuesday 10 March 2009 11:31:39 Tim wrote: Anyone who thinks that increasing the resolution *should* create smaller fonts, or GUI gadgets, has got it extremely wrong. And that includes all the programmers who stupidly do that. Except that, if you want to do so, because you want more real estate, it is often the only way to get it :o) Which isn't to concede that you have a point; I should be able to easily tune the size of things with a scale, and the thing should be drawn at the size I want. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:01:39 +1030 Tim wrote: 96x96 should be the default. I don't know why it isn't. No. The DPI should be set to the values that actually represent the hardware. Actually, that attitude is the one that is utter nonsense. If you want to get slavish about actual representation, then you need to know the distance of the viewer and specify font sizes by the angular diameter the viewer will experience with the font :-). The reason 96 should be the default is that 96 can at least be read on every display device I've ever seen, so you'll at least be able to see what your are doing while getting things set the way you actually want them. The actual representation of a 9 point font (a perfectly readable size on a laser priner) makes about 3 or 4 pixels available to render lower case letters on a 46 inch 1920x1080 HD display. Great fun trying to navigate to the font settings dialog when all the menu items are 4 pixels high. Or consider Samsung HD displays. The one I just got has EDID info that claims it is 160 x 90 millimeters - that gives 305 DPI as the actual representation which makes the fonts so large the font settings dialog won't fit on the screen. Then there are projectors. You can't possibly tell what the actual representation is because it depends on how far away the screen it. By all means let the actual representation fanatics set the DPI to the actual representation if that is what they want, but for Gods sake don't make it the default setting. Make the default something everyone will be able to read. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
Tim: No. The DPI should be set to the values that actually represent the hardware. Tom Horsley Actually, that attitude is the one that is utter nonsense. If you want to get slavish about actual representation, then you need to know the distance of the viewer and specify font sizes by the angular diameter the viewer will experience with the font :-). No, you don't. Certainly not from the point you'd advocate, of giving some false meaning to font sizes. Yes, if designing wall posters, or the like, you'd work out how it'd be viewed, then pick a font size that's appropriate to the thing. You wouldn't redefine 12 points to be something else so you could say that's 12 point text up there (when it most definitely is NOT), just because it seems the same as when I hold 12 point text on a sheet of A4 in my hands. In the case of posters, you might know that it's going to be read at five feet away, mostly front on, and usability guides might say that you should have 3 inch high text for certain parts of the text. You'd specify the height, and it'd work out the point size to use, the real point size, not some artificially made up thing. The reason 96 should be the default is that 96 can at least be read on every display device I've ever seen, so you'll at least be able to see what your are doing while getting things set the way you actually want them. The reason is just cargo cult mentality. The actual representation of a 9 point font (a perfectly readable size on a laser priner) makes about 3 or 4 pixels available to render lower case letters on a 46 inch 1920x1080 HD display. Great fun trying to navigate to the font settings dialog when all the menu items are 4 pixels high. And that's what happens when you use measurement systems inappropriately. DPI has a real meaning, and so does point sizes. When you misuse one, then another, you compound the problem. Point sizes are *absolute*, specific fractions of an inch, if you want a simple one-phrase explanation. The computer uses your DPI, combined with a description of the size of the display medium, to work out how many dots to use get text at the point size specified. i.e. 12 point text is the same size whether printed on 2 inches of paper, or 20 inches of paper. If you want to scale fonts to be readable at certain distances, of an *apparent* size, but not actually the same size on the different displays, THEN YOU DON'T SPECIFY SIZES IN POINTS! Specifying fonts in pixel sizes is the wrong way to go about it, for the same reasons. You can only use such font sizing schemes when designing graphics for a fixed size display. Or consider Samsung HD displays. The one I just got has EDID info that claims it is 160 x 90 millimeters - that gives 305 DPI as the actual representation which makes the fonts so large the font settings dialog won't fit on the screen. Your attempting to use a broken ruler to support broken facts. Then there are projectors. You can't possibly tell what the actual representation is because it depends on how far away the screen it. That's where you're wrong. Firstly, you can tell the distance from the screen (given semi-decent hardware which actually takes note of the focus settings - focus is a distance-dependent thing). Knowing the optics and the distance, you can know the screen size (and therefore know the actual DPI - where you're changing the size, rather than the number of dots, this time). But still, as I said above, if you're expecting certain point size text to display at different sizes, then you're doing it wrong. You've got two choices at doing it right: Not using point sizes. Or not doing something stupid like wanting to specify 12 point text when you're going to do a projected display. By all means let the actual representation fanatics set the DPI to the actual representation if that is what they want, but for Gods sake don't make it the default setting. Make the default something everyone will be able to read. Make the default settings stop *misusing* printing systems. It's just pandering to the ignorant to call something 12 point text when it's not 12 point text, simply because people are used to it. Even when misused in the way that most people expect it, it doesn't work how you want it to work. 12 point text is different on one thing to another, whether you measure it with a ruler, or try playing scaling games for viewing distance. It's as bogus as Wattage stated in PMPO. As it stands, on computer software, when you pick 12 points, or even 12 pixels, for text, the unit is actually meaningless. It's 12 variable *somethings*. You might as well call it centimetres, then claim that we use different centimetres than everyone else. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.15-78.2.23.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe:
Re: setting X server DPI
On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 02:24:39 +1030 Tim wrote: i.e. 12 point text is the same size whether printed on 2 inches of paper, or 20 inches of paper. Absolutely true, and absolutely the point. If you specify a 12 point font on a 46 1920x1080 display, you will wind up drawing some random smudge of bits that is indeed able to fit on a line that is 12/72 of an inch high, but there aren't enough frigging pixels to render the font in any fashion that makes it remotely possible to discern what the character actually represents. As long as all the software in the universe insists on defaulting to things like 9 or 12 point fonts for menu items and login screens no sane person would want the default DPI to actually match the hardware because they couldn't possibly read what it says enough to even find the dialog box they need to fix it. If some poor soul suffers from OCD so badly that he goes into uncontrollable tremors and breaks out in a sweat if the measured size of the font doesn't match the requested size, they by all means let him check the box that says render actual size, but I'm not willing to set my screen to actual size just because he breaks into a cold sweat knowing that I have it set wrong. I need to be able to read what it says. A default setting that can be read is vastly superior to a pedantically correct setting that results in everything being tiny little screen smudges. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 13:27 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: Absolutely true, and absolutely the point. If you specify a 12 point font on a 46 1920x1080 display, you will wind up drawing some random smudge of bits that is indeed able to fit on a line that is 12/72 of an inch high, but there aren't enough frigging pixels to render the font in any fashion that makes it remotely possible to discern what the character actually represents. This true but it shouldn't be. It's true because the sizes of things in X are defined in terms of pixels, and it's wrong because 12pt type is 12pt, no matter what medium it's on. It's an absolute size, not a given number of pixels. The fault is with how X works. Probably no-one remembers it now, but the NeWS display server defined by Sun and based on Postscript did actually manage real sizes, not pixel dimensions. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:35:51 -0430 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: This true but it shouldn't be. It's true because the sizes of things in X are defined in terms of pixels, and it's wrong because 12pt type is 12pt, no matter what medium it's on. It's an absolute size, not a given number of pixels. No they aren't. All the font rendering libraries these days take point sizes at the primary means of specifying font size, but the point (he-he :-) is that the physical device eventually renders the fonts by turning pixels on or off. If you only have 40 pixels per inch, then a 12 point font is gonna need to be rendered on that device in ((12/72)*40 pixels (which comes out to 7 even if you round up), then considering that the lower case characters are only about half height and you have a grand total of 3 or 4 pixels available to render the entire set of glyphs in a font. No can read :-). Even with anti-aliasing and greyscale values for the pixels, rendering readable characters cannot be done. Often this is what you want. If you are preparing a print preview, unreadable little smudges that give you an idea of where the line goes is perfectly OK, but if you are trying to read menus and dialog boxes and get work done it is hopeless. You could re-write every application in the universe to carefully deduce some readability factor based on the available pixels to render the requested font size and request a different size font for thing it intends to be readable, or you can lie about the DPI and not rewrite every single app in the universe. Guess which one is more practical :-). Just like you can calculate orbits with an earth-centric model and epicycles within epicycles, or you could use a sun-centric model and a simple ellipse. They both get the same result, but one is a heck of a lot simpler than the other. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
Ideally, the X server has the correct DPIs and the application is written to use them. The application can discover the number of pixels in a 12pt font and enlarge or not depending on the answer and the purpose. Given that many applications don't do that, lying about the DPIs is a perfectly sensible thing to do. That isn't good for applications that would otherwise do the right thing. There probably isn't a good answer for letting existing applications coexist. Perhaps new applications could look for resources like REAL_DPIX and REAL_DPIY. If they are there and represent numbers, they would be used instead of the lies told the X server. -- Michael henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu Pessimist: The glass is half empty. Optimist: The glass is half full. Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
setting X server DPI
Hello guys, how to configure X server's DPI on Fedora 10? I have in gnome DPI set to 96DPI, but when i check Xorg.log i see that there is 75x75 DPI, which is the reason , why my fonts are so blurry. Thanks for help, D. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
David Hláčik wrote: Thanks for help, 96x96 should be the default. I don't know why it isn't. I have tried it on an old 1992 crt monitor and 96x96 worked splendidly, so I don't know what kind of archaic hardware the present default is set for. To change, edit /etc/kde/kdm/kdmrc and append ' -dpi 96' (no quotes, of course) to the ServerArgsLocal line. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: setting X server DPI
On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:44:44 -0600 Petrus de Calguarium wrote: To change, edit /etc/kde/kdm/kdmrc and append ' -dpi 96' (no quotes, of course) to the ServerArgsLocal line. Which works only if you are using KDM and not GDM. I've got a long rant on DPI one a website I'm working on with all my linux info dumped. See: http://braindump.home.att.net/dpi.html -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
