Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
Antwort auf Nachricht: @[EMAIL PROTECTED] @A@ schrieb am @D@ On 29 Dec 2004 at 16:44, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the Great composers farm out their work to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven, Mozart, etc..? I'm unaware of any completed works of Mozart in which he did not do the orchestration. His method of writing was quite systematic, and based in Italian practice. He wrote first the bass line and the first violin, which, in the Italian style, was the top line of his orchestral score. He then filled in the orchestration in a second pass. Of course, sometimes he'd fill in some of the orchestration on the first pass, but this was basically the way it was done. The same goes for Schubert, and I assume for any composer of this time who is said to compose/write very fast. There are many sketches in score form that show this technique and in many completed works it can be reconstructed as in the mentioned example of Don Giovanni. One can assume that a composition was called completed after the first pass. Orchestration counted as merely working out the final form. Nevertheless, as far as I know, composers did it generally by themselves. It is similar on the next level, with articulation and dynamics. Schubert generally wrote only a few basic or essential dynamic markings in the first pass and filled out the rest later, but with less care. Later in the 19th century and then to the beginning of the 20th century orchestration became more and more essential part of the composition. With composers such as Wagner, Mahler, Strauss... the orchestration is of such importance for the character of the work that it is unthinkable that the composers wouldn't do it by themselves. And if you go into the second half of the 20th century, for classical composers such as Nono, Boulez, Lachenmann (to name just a few prominent names) sound becomes a central category of composition, so you cannot really distinguish between composition and orchestration anymore. Urs ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
Jari Williamsson wrote: Christopher Smith wrote: whereas some others like John Williams hand over highly detailed 6-staff sketches, leaving the orchestrator with little to do besides prepare the full score and decide section splits (and maybe add in some accents and crescendos that JW might have missed.) I personally think John Williams' orchestrator does more than this. There's a big difference in style between the Herbert Spencer orchestrations and the stuff following it, specially in the void at the beginning of the 90s. Btw, an British composer I know composed the music for a couple of Hollywood movies in the 70s. He said that Hollywood rules forced a composer to have an orchestrator even if that person isn't used (in cases where the composer orchestrate him/herself, which my fried did). Was it really like that? Or perhaps it still is like that? Unions can be very powerful and can force industries to maintain (and pay for) jobs which may not be needed in specific instances. I recall hearing of some such jobs in Broadway pit orchestras, where certain individuals were always hired for each show and very often didn't have to play a single note, sometimes didn't even have to show up! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
If you use this method, be sure to get payment in advance :-) On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, dhbailey wrote: Or, if they want to pay you only part copying rates, then you should simply copy the parts. Leave any arranging or filling in gaps to them. Present them with the parts, gaps and all, boring voicings and all. Then tell them it will be extra for you to fancy things up if they want that. -- David H. Bailey ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
On Dec 30, 2004, at 6:06 AM, Jari Williamsson wrote: Christopher Smith wrote: whereas some others like John Williams hand over highly detailed 6-staff sketches, leaving the orchestrator with little to do besides prepare the full score and decide section splits (and maybe add in some accents and crescendos that JW might have missed.) I personally think John Williams' orchestrator does more than this. There's a big difference in style between the Herbert Spencer orchestrations and the stuff following it, specially in the void at the beginning of the 90s. Btw, an British composer I know composed the music for a couple of Hollywood movies in the 70s. He said that Hollywood rules forced a composer to have an orchestrator even if that person isn't used (in cases where the composer orchestrate him/herself, which my fried did). Was it really like that? Or perhaps it still is like that? Best regards, Jari Williamsson I based my original comment on a couple of his sketches that I saw photocopies of, in his own hand. Perhaps those were the exception rather than the rule; I don't know, but they were presented as being typical of JW's work (John Williams, not Jari Williamssom!) There were cues from Star Wars, Close Encounters, and one of the Indiana Jones movies, I think. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
You most certainly have an excellent point. Part of the problem is that I get hired because I have a (modest) reputation of always having my stuff work out. Sometimes that involves me making adjustments, which are not, strictly speaking, part of the orchestrator's job, and certainly not the copyist's job! I think part of what I get paid for is responsibility. If I have more responsibility, then I should get paid more, so a flat hourly fee for what I do does not always do justice to the job. Some tasks that take less time are actually worth more, because I am drawing on my knowledge and experience. It comes back to the same question; how can I charge for this, and explain it to the client? Christopher On Dec 30, 2004, at 7:49 AM, Eden - Lawrence D. wrote: If you use this method, be sure to get payment in advance :-) On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, dhbailey wrote: Or, if they want to pay you only part copying rates, then you should simply copy the parts. Leave any arranging or filling in gaps to them. Present them with the parts, gaps and all, boring voicings and all. Then tell them it will be extra for you to fancy things up if they want that. -- David H. Bailey ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
On Dec 29, 2004, at 5:07 PM, dhbailey wrote: I would think transcribing from midi files -- $40/hour [or whatever] would be sufficient. Have the potential jobs listed as follows, each with its own rate: Copyist -- no editing, straight copying; Arranger -- starts with melodic line and chord progression; Orchestrator -- starts with melodic lines and countermelodies and bass lines with chord progressions outlined; Transcribing from midi files Transcribing from audio cassette Each of these jobs ends up with complete score and parts as agreed upon in the following section: [have a checklist of various instrumental and vocal parts that you will provide] I would list it as a separate job with a specific rate (the higher one he already said he charges for such work.) I have a bit of a difference of opinion as to what constitutes orchestration. In your list above, there doesn't seem to be any essential difference between arranging and orchestration. The way I was taught, the orchestrator does not add or omit any notes or change any voicings, counterlines, melodies, or accompaniment figures. Once one starts in on any of that, he is an arranger, not an orchestrator. As I mentioned before, the difference is in responsibility. The responsibility for the final sound shifts from the composer to the arranger. In most high-end film and show work, this is indeed the way orchestration goes, but in the middle-to-low end of things where I am, working that way is impossible. I have to figure out what the client actually wanted, and create it. (It is not unlike what I do with my students, making suggestions to improve things!) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
I had always read that Mozart wrote the bass, first violin, and _second_ violin parts out on the first pass. Is this incorrect? I only know of film composers getting assistance with orchestration. In interviews, they usually claim that they specify all the necessary details in the sketch scores, but, as we all know, important decisions need to be made by the guy in the trenches. RBH David W. Fenton wrote: On 29 Dec 2004 at 16:44, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the Great composers farm out their work to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven, Mozart, etc..? I'm unaware of any completed works of Mozart in which he did not do the orchestration. His method of writing was quite systematic, and based in Italian practice. He wrote first the bass line and the first violin, which, in the Italian style, was the top line of his orchestral score. He then filled in the orchestration in a second pass. Of course, sometimes he'd fill in some of the orchestration on the first pass, but this was basically the way it was done. It was so clear that the publisher André printed a score of the overture to Don Giovanni that was in two colors of ink, black and red, that showed the two layers, with black being the first layer, red being the 2nd pass for orchestration. (it's actually a bit more complicated than that in the original MS, in that there seem to have been multiple pens used in the orchestration pass, to a lesser degree than in the original skeleton score, but it's still pretty clear that the was an initial full pass, then additional passes to fill in) The only case I can think of where Mozart had help (other than the complicated situation with the Requiem, which was obviously not his usual practice, since he generally didn't compose while dead) was in secco recitatives, not all of which he wrote. I believe that most of the secco recits in La Clemenza di Tito are not by Mozart, though they were, of course, considered by him to be satisfactory enough to have been used in performance. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
Concert music composers have, over time, had some assistance in orchestration and copying. Bach was known to have his students help with copying parts, but the best example is the studio approach that many 19th-century Italian opera composers took. Rossini, for example, composed only the overture and principal arias for his operas. The arias for the lesser roles were often given over to associates to compose. Rossini understood his audience. They came to see and hear the star singers. When a supporting character had an aria, the audience members would close the curtain to their box and enjoy a sorbet or a glass of wine and conversation. These lesser arias came to be called sorbet arias. Wagner was appalled at this practice (and most Italian music in general) and advocated for the composer to be involved in every aspect of the production. That's another story though. Mike * Michael O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Raymond Horton Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:04 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism I had always read that Mozart wrote the bass, first violin, and _second_ violin parts out on the first pass. Is this incorrect? I only know of film composers getting assistance with orchestration. In interviews, they usually claim that they specify all the necessary details in the sketch scores, but, as we all know, important decisions need to be made by the guy in the trenches. RBH David W. Fenton wrote: On 29 Dec 2004 at 16:44, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the Great composers farm out their work to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven, Mozart, etc..? I'm unaware of any completed works of Mozart in which he did not do the orchestration. His method of writing was quite systematic, and based in Italian practice. He wrote first the bass line and the first violin, which, in the Italian style, was the top line of his orchestral score. He then filled in the orchestration in a second pass. Of course, sometimes he'd fill in some of the orchestration on the first pass, but this was basically the way it was done. It was so clear that the publisher André printed a score of the overture to Don Giovanni that was in two colors of ink, black and red, that showed the two layers, with black being the first layer, red being the 2nd pass for orchestration. (it's actually a bit more complicated than that in the original MS, in that there seem to have been multiple pens used in the orchestration pass, to a lesser degree than in the original skeleton score, but it's still pretty clear that the was an initial full pass, then additional passes to fill in) The only case I can think of where Mozart had help (other than the complicated situation with the Requiem, which was obviously not his usual practice, since he generally didn't compose while dead) was in secco recitatives, not all of which he wrote. I believe that most of the secco recits in La Clemenza di Tito are not by Mozart, though they were, of course, considered by him to be satisfactory enough to have been used in performance. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
At 12:06 PM +0100 12/30/04, Jari Williamsson wrote: Btw, an British composer I know composed the music for a couple of Hollywood movies in the 70s. He said that Hollywood rules forced a composer to have an orchestrator even if that person isn't used (in cases where the composer orchestrate him/herself, which my fried did). Was it really like that? Or perhaps it still is like that? I've never heard of that, but then I've not been active in that part of the business, either. Any such rules would be musicians union rules, since Hollywood productions are governed by the overlapping and sometimes conflicting work rules of all the many different unions involved. (Which is also why more and more Hollywood movies are being shot in places like Canada and New Zealand and Eastern Europe, where they can get away from the strict (and expensive!) union rules.) Stephen Spielberg is shooting at least part of War of the Worlds just a few miles from here in Virginia, which just happens to be a right-to-work state with weak unions. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
At 11:50 AM -0500 12/30/04, John Howell wrote: I've never heard of that, but then I've not been active in that part of the business, either. Any such rules would be musicians union rules, since Hollywood productions are governed by the overlapping and sometimes conflicting work rules of all the many different unions involved. (Which is also why more and more Hollywood movies are being shot in places like Canada and New Zealand and Eastern Europe, where they can get away from the strict (and expensive!) union rules.) Stephen Spielberg is shooting at least part of War of the Worlds just a few miles from here in Virginia, which just happens to be a right-to-work state with weak unions. John Hollywood productions don't come to Canada to escape the union rules. We have unions here too. They shoot here because of tax credits and what used to be a favorable exchange rate. And by the way, post-production (such as music scoring) almost never comes with deal. That is usually done back where the producers or director are based. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
At 11:10 AM -0600 12/30/04, Randolph Peters wrote: At 11:50 AM -0500 12/30/04, John Howell wrote: I've never heard of that, but then I've not been active in that part of the business, either. Any such rules would be musicians union rules, since Hollywood productions are governed by the overlapping and sometimes conflicting work rules of all the many different unions involved. (Which is also why more and more Hollywood movies are being shot in places like Canada and New Zealand and Eastern Europe, where they can get away from the strict (and expensive!) union rules.) Stephen Spielberg is shooting at least part of War of the Worlds just a few miles from here in Virginia, which just happens to be a right-to-work state with weak unions. John Hollywood productions don't come to Canada to escape the union rules. We have unions here too. They shoot here because of tax credits and what used to be a favorable exchange rate. And by the way, post-production (such as music scoring) almost never comes with deal. That is usually done back where the producers or director are based. -Randolph Peters OK, I oversimplified. Hollywood movies are being shot away from Hollywood because it is less expensive to do so. One source of such expenses is union work rules that pad the payrole. But the same skills and knowledge are going to be needed no matter where on earth you are, and people with desireable skills and knowledge are likely to form unions to protect themselves from exploitation wherever they happen to be. Now an interesting question that hadn't occurred to me before is this: When producers shoot on location, do they take the skilled people with them from Hollywood, or do they somehow find them locally? And if they take them from Hollywood, wouldn't they still have to abide by the same union work rules? Of course I'm thinking mainly about crafts specialists: cameramen, makeup artists, wardrobe people, caterers, motor pool drivers and mechanics, electricians, audio people, stagehands, grips and best boys. When it comes to scoring and recording, it's going to be done where the balance between convenience and cost ends up. If a director tends to change his mind and require rescoring fairly regularly, I'm sure they'll pay more for convenience. If a composer can work directly with a final cut and the director trusts him, they'll probably go for lower cost. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] mass font substitution
On Dec 29, 2004, at 4:14 PM, dhbailey wrote: Allen Fischer gave you a couple of things to try -- how about simply renaming your KLOGO font to be the same as the name of the Zapf Chancery font file? Unfortunately that wouldn't help. I actually tried something similar, and what happens is that the file's font list ends up showing two different Zapf Chancery fonts. To get the new one to replace the old, I'd still have to do a font substitution--to say nothing of the resizing and repositioning, wh. nobody so far has yet addressed. --And what is the ASCII number for a capital K anyway? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] mass font substitution
On Dec 29, 2004, at 8:48 PM, Richard Yates wrote: I notice that most responders seem to have overlooked this sentence in your post: Unfortunately, merely switching fonts won't do, as the K needs to be both repositioned and resized after the substitution. Since you have made a new font character anyway, can you simply design that character so that its size and position do not require the repositioning and resizing? Short of that I see no way to this in bulk. Yeah, I was sort of afraid it would come to that. If I proceed thus, I'll have to resize and reposition the dozen or so files I've already jiggered... Oh well. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] mass font substitution
At 01:09 PM 12/30/04 -0500, Andrew Stiller wrote: Unfortunately that wouldn't help. I actually tried something similar, and what happens is that the file's font list ends up showing two different Zapf Chancery fonts. To get the new one to replace the old, I'd still have to do a font substitution--to say nothing of the resizing and repositioning, wh. nobody so far has yet addressed. I know you're trying to avoid too much work, so maybe this isn't a good suggestion either. But were I to be creating a logo block, it would be a separate image file to drop in place. I don't know how your logo block works, but would an image do? I must admit I'm surprised about the font situation. I'd be stealing the font if some company screwed me like that. --And what is the ASCII number for a capital K anyway? 75 Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Methods of composition
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: P.S.S. Christopher, thank you for also writing in your post about how you actually create your music i.e. still with paper and pencil at the piano in the beginning and then to the computer. I'm with you on that!! I can't write directly to the computer either though I know there are those who can and do with much success. I too usually start at the piano and then move to the computer to orchestrate. Maybe this is another idea for an OT conversation. I'm always curious as to others' methods of writing and how they go about the process. I prefer to compose at my Yamaha keyboard (now showing its age with some key rattle) with my laptop hanging off its MIDI output, so that whatever I like can go straight into Finale. If I want a more portable set-up, I borrow my son's Keystation 49. The main disadvantage of the latter is that I can't make WinFin 2004 play immediately what is on the keys as WinFin 2000 does, only what is in the score. I have never calculated whether I create worse pollution with the electricity turned into heat than with the paper that I would otherwise have to throw away, but much of the time, in this cool climate, the heat does another job on its way to the outside atmosphere. -- Ken Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.mooremusic.org.uk/ I reject emails 100k automatically: warn me beforehand if you want to send one ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Who are you?
Very nice to put some biographies to all those names! Here is some of mine: Born in 1970 in Berlin, I studied music at King's College, Cambridge (UK), and baroque and classical violin with Simon Standage. I then worked as a freelance violinist in London for a while, played with the Academy of Ancient Music and Collegium Musicum 90. I then decided I wanted to do more studying and went to the Schola Cantorum in Basle for a few years. Although my lessons with the violin teacher there (no need to mention names) ended rather abruptly after a disagreement, I was able to study with the Cellist Christophe Coin. I work mostly as a freelance violinist, and have played for the Bach Ensemble New York, and many lesser known German groups. For several years I have been a regular member with Cappella Coloniensis, the oldest Period Instruments Orchestra (I think) in the world, we just celebrated our 50th. (I am actually writing this from a hotel room in Dortmund, where we'll play a New Year's eve concert tomorrow. Our live recording of the original version of Wagner's Flying Dutchman is due to come out in the next few weeks - that's as far as our repertoire extends). I also have my own Ensemble, Camerata Berolinensis, and lead and direct a few others. Since this year I also play as a principal for a Canadian group called Aradia Ensemble. A few years ago I founded my own CD label, two CDs of Camerata Berolinensis have since come out. I do engraving on the side (a good way to kill time in hotels or trains), and hopefully will eventually start as a publisher on a small scale. I also still do some musicological research for Chris Hogwood. The latest news is that I am hopefully going to do some serious string quartet playing, although we are still very much at the beginning. When we get there, I'll make sure to let the list know about it... Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Broadway pit orchestras
In a message dated 12/30/04 12:13:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The practice of Broadway pit orchestras including walkers who filled out the roster but did not have to play, or sometimes show up, is a thing of the past: it ended decades ago. The collective bargaining agreement between the producers and the musicians' union reflects this... Message: 33 From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip I recall hearing of some such jobs in Broadway pit orchestras, where certain individuals were always hired for each show and very often didn't have to play a single note, sometimes didn't even have to show up! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Who are you?
Johannes Gebauer / 04.12.30 / 01:33 PM wrote: Very nice to put some biographies to all those names! Yeah, but we all want to se see faces, no? :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Broadway pit orchestras
Ah, but here's the other side of the question. Do Broadway composers still have to write for a set ensemble? I recall that there was a union action about this some time ago when composers were leaning more towards electric instruments (not the orchestra in a box, but guitars, keyboards, etc.). Mike * Michael O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 1:36 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Broadway pit orchestras In a message dated 12/30/04 12:13:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The practice of Broadway pit orchestras including walkers who filled out the roster but did not have to play, or sometimes show up, is a thing of the past: it ended decades ago. The collective bargaining agreement between the producers and the musicians' union reflects this... Message: 33 From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip I recall hearing of some such jobs in Broadway pit orchestras, where certain individuals were always hired for each show and very often didn't have to play a single note, sometimes didn't even have to show up! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] was MIDI transcriptionism
At 9:44 AM -0500 12/30/04, Christopher Smith wrote: I have a bit of a difference of opinion as to what constitutes orchestration. In your list above, there doesn't seem to be any essential difference between arranging and orchestration. The way I was taught, the orchestrator does not add or omit any notes or change any voicings, counterlines, melodies, or accompaniment figures. Once one starts in on any of that, he is an arranger, not an orchestrator. As I mentioned before, the difference is in responsibility. The responsibility for the final sound shifts from the composer to the arranger. Bingo! We are, indeed, discussing responsibility, which does, indeed, shift in various times and places between not only composer and arranger, but historically among composer, arranger and performer. The orchestration of virtually all Renaissance instrumental music was open, and it was expected that the band leader or choir director would distribute the instruments that happened to be available among the parts. Singers and instrumentalists alike were expected to have the skill to improvise and ornament--the modern term would be stylize--their lines. The responsibility for the final sound lay as much on the performer as on the composer, and both knew and understood that simple fact. Baroque ornamentation (stylization) came in two flavors, French and Italian. In France and in music in the French style, it was the responsibility of the composer, and the ornamentation of individual notes became part of the actual melodic line. In Italy and in music in the Italian style, it was more often the responsibility of the performer, with the most famous case being Corelli's adagios and the way he would improvise on them in performance. But all Baroque performers understood and accepted a greater degree of responsibility for the final sound, comparable only to jazz performers in today's music. Today's parallel to this separation of responsibilities can be found in today's popular music, musical theater, and yes, opera. What's important to the listener is in part the skill of the composer/songwriter, but in much greater part the individuality of the singer who recorded it or the actor presenting it on stage. Both arrangement and orchestration are vital to the final sound, but the average listener doesn't know that and doesn't care. Nelson Riddle had as much responsibility for Frank Sinatra's hits as Frank or the songwriters did, but only musicians are aware of that simple fact. Since musical theater predates movies, it's easy to see how corporate creativity became the rule. Theater is the art of illusion, and moviemaking even moreso. Each is created by specialists, each with creative excellence in his own part of the process. The first layer of skill to be farmed out as unnecessary for the composer to do himself was the actual copying. The second was orchestration, entrusted to a skilled professional who had the trust of the composer. There are good reasons why Robert Russell Bennett was the first call orchestrator for an entire generation of musical theater composers, but even he was regularly replaced by someone else for the dance orchestrations in a show. They were different specialties, if the composer or producer or director felt that was important. I've seen an interesting trend among music educators. When they prepare printed programs for their show choir or vocal jazz concerts, they more often credit the arranger and don't even mention the composer/songwriter. Their judgement of the relative importance is pretty clear. And if an arrangement is actually a transcription of someone's recording, they go even farther and credit As recorded by ... rather than either arranger or composer. Yet both arranger and composer are there, lurking in the background. People may put down George Gershwin as a serious composer because he had Ferde Grofé orchestrate a lot of his work and freely admitted that he lacked that skill, at least in the beginning, but he was simply following the normal Broadway practice of his time. On the other hand, someone has mentioned that in the work of R. Strauss, Wagner, et al., the orchestration becomes so important to the final sound that it is inconceivable to imagine anyone but the composer doing it. But we find almost exactly the same thing with record producers Quincy Jones and Jimmy Jam in the 1970s and '80s, with recording arrangements just as complex, but made up of multiple layers of synthesized pointilism rather than multiple layers of orchestral pointilism, and created by arrangers rather than the songwriters on the megahit recordings by Michael Jackson and others. You simply can't transcribe those arrangements for acoustic instruments on a one-to-one basis; you have to reorchestrate completely. What I try to impress on my arranging students is this: It is an arrangement that
RE: [Finale] Broadway pit orchestras
At 1:46 PM -0500 12/30/04, Michael O'Connor wrote: Ah, but here's the other side of the question. Do Broadway composers still have to write for a set ensemble? I recall that there was a union action about this some time ago when composers were leaning more towards electric instruments (not the orchestra in a box, but guitars, keyboards, etc.). Mike Again, I'm outside my own experience here, but I've never been aware of any set ensemble requirement. Instead, the AFofM tends to specify a minimum NUMBER of musicians. That varies from one show to another, and probably represents the union requirements in the year the show opened. But the orchestra for No Strings had, ... well, ... um, ... no strings! Man of La Mancha required Spanish guitar--possibly more than one. There seems to have been about the amount of flexibility that you would expect, given that some shows call for a jazz band with strings and others for a small concert orchestra. Rock shows do require electric orchestras, no question. Has anybody played Little Shop, Superstar, or other rock shows and can comment on the orchestrations? And like you, I wonder whether such shows can negotiate smaller numbers of players, since rock bands almost always are smaller. But when I think of a score like Cats, along with the 5 Prophet V synths there is a pretty conventional pit orchestra. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] was MIDI transcriptionism
On Dec 30, 2004, at 11:04 AM, John Howell wrote: People may put down George Gershwin as a serious composer because he had Ferde Grofé orchestrate a lot of his work and freely admitted that he lacked that skill, at least in the beginning, but he was simply following the normal Broadway practice of his time. AFAIK - Gershwin did all the Porgy and Bess orchestrations. I don't know about the Concerto in F. Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Broadway pit orchestras
A related question, just out of curiosity (since I have nothing to do with popular music theatre): The Budapest Operetta regularly plays musicals, and plays them with an orchestra of 30 or more players, using sets of parts that are rented from abroad. I understand that the Broadway originals are played with much smaller ensembles, so are such larger orchestrations produced in parallel to the smaller originals, or are smaller originals written to be expanded as resources permit? Daniel Wolf Michael O'Connor wrote: Ah, but here's the other side of the question. Do Broadway composers still have to write for a set ensemble? I recall that there was a union action about this some time ago when composers were leaning more towards electric instruments (not the orchestra in a box, but guitars, keyboards, etc.). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Broadway pit orchestras
On Dec 30, 2004, at 12:38 PM, Daniel Wolf wrote: A related question, just out of curiosity (since I have nothing to do with popular music theatre): The Budapest Operetta regularly plays musicals, and plays them with an orchestra of 30 or more players, using sets of parts that are rented from abroad. I understand that the Broadway originals are played with much smaller ensembles, so are such larger orchestrations produced in parallel to the smaller originals, or are smaller originals written to be expanded as resources permit? Daniel Wolf Broadway orchestras in which I have played, or have conducted have had about 30 players. It is fairly safe to add more strings to existing orchestrations, but more complicated, problematic and usually unnecessary to double existing wind or percussion parts. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: OT Who are you? --Karen's reply
Ok, I have to chime here about Karen's reply. The very brief reference she made to herself as being a computer consultant has been MOST important to me. Folks, Karen is someone who regularly saves my life computer-wise. In my opinion, she is a qualified expert in almost all things Macintosh, especially Finale. I have employed her on a regular basis for a full year now, and she is a dream come true, for not only me but my wife as well. When I was in a hopeless tangle on my fronts, she literally saved me. I have referred her to Bob Florence and several others, and she has been great. AND, best of all, she has become a good friend. Only after all this did I find out what a good musician she is. Sorry if I'm making you blush, Karen, but I couldn't leave this alone. All the best to all for the New Year, KIM Richmond On Dec 29, 2004, at 10:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Message: 7 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:14:01 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Who are you? To: finale@shsu.edu Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed Born in 1964 in Germany to an American mother and a British/American father. Moved to the states shortly thereafter where I was raised in Denver Colorado. Studied classical flute as a child and had my first experience with writing jazz in junior high school when there were no flute parts for the jazz band so I had to write my own. Bless my band director for letting me hang around anyway! I was never a very good sight reader growing up due to my dyslexia. When the notes started going by too quickly, I would have to wing it because I just couldn't see them. This was always a great embarrassment to me but I guess it was a good thing in a way because it helped me to develop my ears. Despite my reading difficulties, my teacher still supported and encouraged me musically thank goodness. So bless my classical flute teacher for never berating me and instead sending me to jazz school where I felt like I was finally home musically. Graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in Jazz Composition. I was fortunate enough to get to study with Herb Pomeroy, Greg Hopkins, Bob Freedman, Ken Pullig, Wayne Naus, Dennis Grillo and Richard Lowell. I started copying charts for Bob Freedman to make extra money while in school and of course spent many hours copying my own charts, pen and ink, on a blue footlocker in a tiny apartment in Boston. Bless all of my friends that stopped by to keep me company and bring coffee. I met so many great people while at school! I then lived in Phoenix for several years where I was a professional jazz flautist in various duos, trios, quartets etc. and also an RB band. We did a mix of original music and standards and played at clubs, casual gigs and jazz and art festivals. I worked with and studied with a wonderful person and jazz guitar player named Bud Dimock during that time too. That was always great fun! The highlight of my time in Phoenix was getting to play with Ray Charles and his band during one of his concerts in Phoenix. I will never forget that! Bless my booking agent for hiring me for that one! I currently live in Los Angeles and make my living as a full time musician. Most of my income comes from being a proofreader, copyist, midi transcriptionist and music librarian for feature films and television. But I also compose, arrange, orchestrate and play from time to time as well. I do a bit of computer consulting for a hand full of musicians here in town too. Not only are these people wildly talented musicians, they are also wonderful, kind, warm and decent human beings. Bless them (and their wives who are equally wonderful) for adding so much to my life in the past couple of years. They have reminded me of how much sheer joy can be found in creating and playing music just for the sake of the music itself. A couple of them are listers here so I'll take this chance to say thank you! For recreation, I love to read, water and snow ski, and spend as much time as possible just hanging out and talking with friends. The older I get the more I realize that simple pleasures really are the best. Thanks Bob for starting this thread. And thanks to all of you who have posted. I have enjoyed reading your stories very much! -Karen ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Broadway pit orchestras
On Dec 30, 2004, at 2:26 PM, John Howell wrote: Rock shows do require electric orchestras, no question. Has anybody played Little Shop, Yes, 2 keyboards, guitar, electric bass, drums. This started as an off-Broadway production in an intimate theatre, so I suppose the band minimum was much smaller than a large theatre. Superstar, Rock rhythm section, smallish horn section, totalling about 12, I seem to remember. Rent is a quartet - guit, keys, bass, drums. But I don't think much of that show in any case (not because of the band's size, though!) or other rock shows and can comment on the orchestrations? And like you, I wonder whether such shows can negotiate smaller numbers of players, since rock bands almost always are smaller. But when I think of a score like Cats, along with the 5 Prophet V synths there is a pretty conventional pit orchestra. When it ran in Toronto for about forever, it had 13 in the pit (if you could call it that, as it was in another building entirely!) which was somewhat smaller than the London orchestra. They replaced the Prophet V's with samples as soon as it was practical to do so. Those things were SO touchy! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Broadway pit orchestras
On Dec 30, 2004, at 3:38 PM, Daniel Wolf wrote: A related question, just out of curiosity (since I have nothing to do with popular music theatre): The Budapest Operetta regularly plays musicals, and plays them with an orchestra of 30 or more players, using sets of parts that are rented from abroad. I understand that the Broadway originals are played with much smaller ensembles, so are such larger orchestrations produced in parallel to the smaller originals, or are smaller originals written to be expanded as resources permit? Daniel Wolf The older shows were often written for about 26 or so, easily expandable in the string department for the purposes of the cast recording, or when the budget allows. The nature of the musical theatre business was that they wouldn't hope to recover their investment until after the show had closed and gone on tour, and had been available for rental for a while, so they intentionally arranged them to be playable with smaller bands by cutting lower instrument parts, just like those dance stocks from the 50's. Some revivals were re-arranged for smaller orchestras (in these cost-cutting times), and some of those reduced orchestrations are available by rental. I understand that the norm nowadays with all those large Disney productions is to have TWO sets of orchestrations done; one set for 26 or so musicians, to be played for the first few weeks until all the reviews are in and the cast album recorded; the other set cut down to 12 to 16 musicians to be played for the rest of the run. I consider this practice to be highly immoral, akin to the old bait and switch tactic used by unscrupulous salesmen. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
On 30 Dec 2004 at 10:03, Raymond Horton wrote: I had always read that Mozart wrote the bass, first violin, and _second_ violin parts out on the first pass. Is this incorrect? Yes, it's incorrect, so far as my experience with Mozart's autographs goes. I can't recall a single example of 2nd being written out in the first layer, except occasionally for nice details he might have thought of while making the first pass. And that also happens in the inner parts, too. Of course, in passages where 1st violin is not playing, another part gets put in during the first pass, depending on what it might be in the context, and what part has the lead voice. The same can be said for the bass line -- it's not 100% the contrabass/cello part, but whichever part has the bass line. And, of course, some autographs show evidence of substantial composition during the writing process (as opposed to simply writing down what's already planned out). The most famous examples are the Haydn quartets, which were clearly *not* written out in Mozart's typical method. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
On 30 Dec 2004 at 13:05, Michael O'Connor wrote: In the one case that I know anything at all about, the Lord of the Rings trilogy used a large number of New Zealand tech folks as well as extras, (and some credited actors). The rest were UK people, so I don't know if American work rules had anything to do with the entire project. of course most studios are international companies now ... Having just gone through the extended editions of all three movies and all the documentaries that come with them (11 hours of movies, 15+ hours of documentaries), the New Zealand connection was much greater than you are suggesting. So far as I can tell, *all* extras were Kiwis, as well as all the production crew with the exception of the management-level roles. All post-production was done in New Zealand with the exception of music recording, which was done in London because it was done by the London Philharmonic (easier to go to the orchestra than to bring the orchestra to NZ). The remarkable thing about the whole endeavor was that Peter Jackson (the director) basically created the whole production mechansim from scratch, for the purpose of making his films. He built a new sound facility literally from the ground up for the purpose of mixing his films (the last two were done there). Weta Workshop basically ramped up its staff to whatever level was needed to support the film, and brought in whatever expertise was necessary to get the job done (as well as innovating on their own in a number of areas). Even the digital FX were home-grown, with Weta Digital doing almost all of it (New Line, the distributors of the films, was not confident that Weta could successfully animate Gollum, and had to be convinced before signing off on turning over the wholesale creation of an entire critical character to the digital animators). At the end Jackson remarks in one of the documentaries that the three films were basically made by amateurs. There was, in fact, very little Hollywood involvement in the production. The cast was the most Hollywood part of the entire endeavor, and even that was heavily UK-based. And, no, my eyes didn't fall out after watching all of this. I did this in the evenings over the holidays, and was riveted. I first rewatched the original versions of all three films. I then watched the extended versions with commentary from the director and writers. After each, I watched the 5+ hours of documentaries associated with that film before going on to the commentary for the next film. Last of all, I watched all three extended editions in succession (though I basically watched half a movie each night, as by this time, I was pretty worn out). It's a pretty amazing accomplishment, over all, comparable, in my opinion, to Wagner's mounting of his Ring Cycle the first time at Bayreuth. I think, though, that I'm going to wait a while before listening to the other commentaries! -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Interesting new thread... Personally (and yes, I am one:) I've never held much stock in Raff's contribution(s) being as major as he claimed. For one thing, the Liszt works in question are far more creative, imaginative and rhapsodically-structured than anything Raff ever produced, save the 'Leonore' symphony.And far richer in their use of the orchestra. and then there is the case of Charles Koechlin. Koechlin is known to have orchestrated some of Faure's music under Faure's supervision (I think the most well known is the _Pellease suite_). He also _definitely_ orchestrated Debussy's _Khamma_ (He also may have composed some of that) and _may have_ something to do with _Nuages_. There are many more examples for Koechlin of less-well know composers. And to add to the John Williams thing: Having worked in/for Hollywood composers for a while, I can tell you that Williams main way of composing is to write a melody line and then use letters to tell the arrangers/copyists what and how to fill in. I thought that this was rather well known, but it may just be the circle of people I used to work with :-) You can verify this by listening! Almost all of his scores do sound the same. A very important point to make is that the orchestrations are his own, in that he did come up with the original sounds in the first place - he just uses the letter system to save time. Bruce Petherick ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
On Dec 31, 2004, at 01:19, Bruce Petherick wrote (of John Williams): Almost all of his scores do sound the same I know what you mean, but did you intend this to sound quite so disparaging? John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
John Bell wrote: On Dec 31, 2004, at 01:19, Bruce Petherick wrote (of John Williams): Almost all of his scores do sound the same I know what you mean, but did you intend this to sound quite so disparaging? ummm... in the same way that Mozart and Beethoven sound the same. William's music is important to a lot of producers because of this similar sound - it is a bankable, knowable sound. Bruce Petherick ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
Hi Christopher, Sorry for the delayI have been travelling and I wanted to be able to spend a bit of time on my reply to you! This caught my eye. I often get calls from composers on deadlines who need me to transcribe and orchestrate from MIDI files. I've been arguing with my clients constantly about whether this constitutes orchestration or not; they claim that since THEY are making the decisions as to whether a given line is strings, woods, brass, etc., that THEY are the orchestrator and I am the copyist. I never charge copyists' rates for this kind of thing (I charge more, way more) but I still have a big argument every time, even with the same clients. In my opinion, you are right. This is midi transcription and orchestration. Both are separate services with different ways of being billed. This is not copying in my opinion. And you should be charging differently for each as you are now. If the composer is also claiming to be the orchestrator, he/she should be handing you a complete file or paper score (with dynamics, articulations etc. etc.) that can extracted from or copied without any additional work. Even if we come to an agreement, the quality of the MIDI files I am given varies wildly, from beautifully set-up files laid out in score order with separated woodwind, brass, percussion and string sections, strictly quantised to import nicely into Finale; all the way to noodling on a couple of different patches that needs to be completely arranged pretty much from scratch, assuming that I can figure out what is going on, which is not easy in these cases. Here in L.A. this (midi transcription) is usually charged for by the hour. Charging a time rate may also help to solve your problem because high quality midi files will take you less time to straighten out than sloppy ones. So your bill will be reflective of that and those clients that are more thorough and neat will have a less expensive bill...as it should be in my opinion. If you are looking for what to charge for different things exactly, the unions are a good place to start. You mentioned the rate sheets for New York and Los Angeles. You can can check out the Music Prep Rates for reference and can download them in PDF format from some of the union web sites. I use the base orchestration hourly rate for midi transcription. Contrary to what might be said by some, I believe one can follow union guidelines for what to charge without being abusive or overcharging. If you are good at what you do, if you are conscientious and if you can be trusted to deliver a viable accurate product, people will pay you a for your services. I consider midi transcription to be any or all of these things: --Deleting redundant and/or empty tracks from a midi file --Quantizing each remaining track within my sequencer so that it will come into Finale nicely after export. --Exporting cleaned up and quantized midi file and then importing it into Finale. --Taking down any other loop or sample information that is part of the piece but may not be fullyindicated as notes in the file (I ask the composer to provide an audio file along with the midi file to make sure my work is accurate and has everything included.) --Setting up a completed sketch from the imported file in Finale which is an accurate representation of what is going on in the midi file complete with brief indications of where horns are muted, stopped etc. and strings are pizz, arco etc. and what notes are in harp glisses for example. Also if articulations are part of a patch name, I'll include a note about that in my sketch (i.e. stacc. horns) This final sketch should be similar to what a composer might normally hand his/her orchestrator. At this point, I have had one of two things happen in my experience. One, I give this completed sketch to an orchestrator who then does their thing with it and gives it back to me completed to copy (I have gotten both computer scores and hand written scores back from orchestrators) or two, I become the orchestrator. In this way of working, I consider adding dynamics, hairpins and filling in more complete articulations etc. as part of the orchestration process rather than part of the midi transcription process but there are some who might argue this. If I am doing orchestration, during the orchestration process, I am again listening to the audio file provided by the composer if there is one for reference. So I prefer to do the dynamics etc. by ear rather than by looking at midi information. It seems more musical to me that way. Again, that is just me. Traditionally, orchestration is charged by the 4 bar score page here in LA. Page rates charged vary from orchestrator to orchestrator depending on how well established they are. So when I think about what the difference between Midi Transcription and Orchestration is, I'd say Midi Transcription is the doing whatever it takes to create a
Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism
- Original Message - From: David W. Fenton So far as I can tell, *all* extras were Kiwis, as well as all the production crew with the exception of the management-level roles. All post-production was done in New Zealand with the exception of music recording, which was done in London because it was done by the London Philharmonic (easier to go to the orchestra than to bring the orchestra to NZ). Just as a matter of interest, some of the music for the Fellowship of the Rings was done in Wellington, New Zealand with the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. The Mines of Moria sequence and the end part of the movie was needed for a thirty minute showing at the Cannes Film Festival and as the film was very much still in production at the time it was decided to record the music in Wellington to make things easier, and no doubt a lot cheaper. The rest of the movie is the LPO as is the rest of the Trilogy. I was fortunate to be doing music preparation on those sessions in the Wellington Town Hall. David Woodcock Auckland, New Zealand ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
