Re: [Finale] TAN: paper Clairefontain DCP ivory
On 22.01.2009 dc wrote: Johannes Gebauer écrit: Has anyone used the above paper? Is it worth getting? Should I get 100g/m2 or 120g/m2 for parts? I have a sample here somewhere (but where?). I find the paper a bit too shiny to my taste (if I recall correctly - I'll try to hunt for it). For parts, I think 120g is better. Dennis, what do you use? My attempts so far to get a paper which is similar to other editions have been less successfull. I have two different sorts here, both of which are acceptable but not ideal. I'd love to find a paper which is similar to what eg Bärenreiter uses. Thanks, Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On Jan 21, 2009, at 10:13 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote: In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number of trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone section may have been any number that was available. This is one of those logical fallacies -- absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I have a hard time believing that Vienna, with a major Catholic cathedral in it (and any number of other churches with full-fledged musical establishments), would have lacked for trombonists. Maybe not great ones, but still. I think you misread. I said cities other than Vienna. Vienna, which he often wrote for, had the trombones. Other cities, mostly not (the article mentions going tromboneless rather than using inferior players in subsequent performances.) Beethoven was enough of a pragmatist to know what was going to happen after the premier. There is stuff in the article that I didn't quote dealing with the extremes asked of the alto trombonist, too. Chap 1:3:1, Schubert puts all trombones on one staff in his scores in one clef (tenor) though he probably intended it for ATB trio. Though the range suits tenor trombone on the first part (AND the third, says me, except for a rare low note!), a modern tenor is probably too heavy. Because the parts were copied in tenor clef in an early edition, it was often played on tenor trombone, against the probable intent of the composer. Footnote 118, as to the clefs used to notate these instruments, great confusion reigns A composer's autograph score in the period of Schubert is nothing but a guide to the copyist for creating parts. I see nothing at all there in what you quote that suggests anything in regard to evidence about which instruments Schubert intended -- the documentary evidence is itself contradictory. No, not in what I quote, but he does bring up other evidence. I couldn't quote the whole article here, David, cut me a bit of slack! And even the interpretation offered does not support the 3-tenors hypothesis. Nope, not here. That comes later in history. Sometimes later (but still old) performances on 3 tenors are cited to support the use of a tenor lead today, but that would be wrong, as Schubert undoubtedly wrote for, and wanted, ATB sections (or at least alto on the first part.) I quoted this part to show how simply looking at the score, even an autograph score, might not give all the information a trombonist or conductor needs. Also to show that tessitura alone is not a basis for deciding which instrument to use in a modern situation. Anyway, it goes on and on like this. Jumping ahead to Part II, he discusses Brahm, Dvorak and Bruckner, where it is not clear what was written for. The use of the term alto trombone doesn't seem to mean much in these scores, as most German orchestras were using three tenor trombones of varying bores at the time. I didn't read the later parts of the article, but I found the evidence adduced to be pretty weak tea. The original parts used by the Vienna Philharmonic since its founding in 1842 still exist. Surely examining those would say something about what performance practices actually existed in that particular location throughout much of the 19th century. Yes, he did examine them, among other documents. The point here for these composers was that the first parts were written in alto clef (probably a result of tradition), reference is made to alto trombone, but the first part was most likely played on tenor. This is where the three tenor section becomes more usual, historically, though it isn't a slam dunk by any means. I know some major players who play Brahms symphonies on an alto, while others shiver in disgust at the very concept. And, of course, different places had different traditions (Vienna still does with its special brass instruments, Yup, he deals with that. So the question of what a modern trombonist should use becomes foggier. It is a great resource for orchestral trombonists who are trying to understand the role of their instrument in certain repertoire, and shows how caution has to be applied when you rely too much on the appearance in the score. Seems to me that boils down to nothing more than being sure you're using critical scores, rather than depending on some Eulenberg miniature score that's probably 10 or more generations away from the composer's original (with some exceptions, of course -- the Bruckner scores are actually taken almost directly from the original bowdlerized editions of Bruckner's symphonies). No, even the autograph score won't give you all the information. That was one of the big points he made repeatedly through the article. You have to go on a case-by-case basis, even if you are trying to discover what was played in the first performance. Of course, if
Re: [Finale] Finale 4-Day Super Sale
On 14.01.2009 Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 14.01.2009 Daniel Wolf wrote: They could certainly use a less expensive shipping company. And don't forget that you'll have to pay a Custom's duty on it as well. But it is still less expensive than any offer that will come from the German Finale distributor. As far as I know there is no customs duty on software. I was wrong, so this special deal in the end turned out to be almost the same price as if I had bought it here... Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] slashed 3 time signature
On 22 Jan 2009 at 12:41, dc wrote: David W. Fenton écrit: Thanks for your reply. Is this a liturgical work? It's a Psalm setting. BTW, you've been doing the Charpentier stuff -- what do you think about the cadential C| measures? Half value for the tactus (previous quarter = C| half) or same value (previous half = C| half)? When we performed it we found that metrically, it made sense to make the C| half equal to the the previous quarter (usually 4/4). Good question. But very often, it's only the last measure that has the cut time signature. So for one note only, and then often with a fermata. So it's hard to see any proportional relation between the two in such cases. Well, the last measure of a section, and the sections are often continuous. We found when we did the Charpentier Tenebrae settings that it made sense to treat them as half value (i.e., C| half equals C quarter). Now, of course, some of them were at real endings, as you say, but there were enough that occurred at minor subsections of the text that we found that doing them rhythmically with our interpretation of the proportion made musical sense to us. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On 22 Jan 2009 at 0:18, Ray Horton wrote: I would even venture to say that their work is so well-documented that anyone who wants to dispute would need, at this point, to come up with some examples. My questions were entirely aimed at the web article that Christopher cited. I don't see good documentation or proper interpretation of sources in that article, to be honest. That doesn't mean the author doesn't do that elsewhere, but all I had to go on was that article. And that article does not at all seem to be in agreement with your description of Wiener's hyphothesis. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On 22 Jan 2009 at 8:07, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jan 21, 2009, at 10:13 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote: In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number of trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone section may have been any number that was available. This is one of those logical fallacies -- absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I have a hard time believing that Vienna, with a major Catholic cathedral in it (and any number of other churches with full-fledged musical establishments), would have lacked for trombonists. Maybe not great ones, but still. I think you misread. I said cities other than Vienna. Yes, but it depends on what you're looking at -- what Beethoven intended, and what people actually managed to do at the time. Since we today (in most decent-sized orchestras) have the luxury of choosing the instruments to be used, I don't see much reason to worry about how people in the past got by. When you have the resources to do it according to the way Beethoven conceived it, I see no reason to argue that in the past it *wasn't* always performed that way. Now, if you're a community orchestra and lack the instruments, you could definitely use the argument that Beethoven's contemporaries made do, and that's fine. I don't see much need for arguments like that, since even though I'm all for historically informed performance, I believe that if that becomes a barrier to groups wanting to play the work, then it's better to toss performance practice and make do with what you have -- no need for any justification from historical practice needed! Vienna, which he often wrote for, had the trombones. Other cities, mostly not (the article mentions going tromboneless rather than using inferior players in subsequent performances.) Beethoven was enough of a pragmatist to know what was going to happen after the premier. There is stuff in the article that I didn't quote dealing with the extremes asked of the alto trombonist, too. But my understanding is that the Wiener article is claiming Beethoven didn't call for alto trombone. I thought you were using the web article to support that position, when, in fact, it seems to me to be based entirely on the contrary assumption. Chap 1:3:1, Schubert puts all trombones on one staff in his scores in one clef (tenor) though he probably intended it for ATB trio. Though the range suits tenor trombone on the first part (AND the third, says me, except for a rare low note!), a modern tenor is probably too heavy. Because the parts were copied in tenor clef in an early edition, it was often played on tenor trombone, against the probable intent of the composer. Footnote 118, as to the clefs used to notate these instruments, great confusion reigns A composer's autograph score in the period of Schubert is nothing but a guide to the copyist for creating parts. I see nothing at all there in what you quote that suggests anything in regard to evidence about which instruments Schubert intended -- the documentary evidence is itself contradictory. No, not in what I quote, but he does bring up other evidence. I couldn't quote the whole article here, David, cut me a bit of slack! But when the evidence is contradictory, that doesn't mean you can then use it to argue one side of the case. And that's what it seems to me the article's author is trying to do. And even the interpretation offered does not support the 3-tenors hypothesis. Nope, not here. That comes later in history. Sometimes later (but still old) performances on 3 tenors are cited to support the use of a tenor lead today, but that would be wrong, as Schubert undoubtedly wrote for, and wanted, ATB sections (or at least alto on the first part.) I quoted this part to show how simply looking at the score, even an autograph score, might not give all the information a trombonist or conductor needs. Also to show that tessitura alone is not a basis for deciding which instrument to use in a modern situation. Anyway, it goes on and on like this. Jumping ahead to Part II, he discusses Brahm, Dvorak and Bruckner, where it is not clear what was written for. The use of the term alto trombone doesn't seem to mean much in these scores, as most German orchestras were using three tenor trombones of varying bores at the time. I didn't read the later parts of the article, but I found the evidence adduced to be pretty weak tea. The original parts used by the Vienna Philharmonic since its founding in 1842 still exist. Surely examining those would say something about what performance practices actually existed in that particular location throughout much of the 19th century. Yes, he did examine them, among other documents. Is that mentioned in
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:42 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: But my understanding is that the Wiener article is claiming Beethoven didn't call for alto trombone. I thought you were using the web article to support that position, when, in fact, it seems to me to be based entirely on the contrary assumption. No, not Beethoven. Other, later composers, yes. Or no. Or maybe. 8-) Some players make the assumption that the first parts were always written for alto trombone right up to the 20th century, but this article is trying to show where composer's intent, best practice at the time, and actual first performance may not always intersect, so as to guide modern players. I didn't read the later parts of the article, but I found the evidence adduced to be pretty weak tea. The original parts used by the Vienna Philharmonic since its founding in 1842 still exist. Surely examining those would say something about what performance practices actually existed in that particular location throughout much of the 19th century. Yes, he did examine them, among other documents. Is that mentioned in the article? As I said, I didn't read the whole thing... Yes. The whole thing is pretty exhaustive and goes on in intricate detail. I skimmed some parts myself... The point here for these composers was that the first parts were written in alto clef (probably a result of tradition), reference is made to alto trombone, but the first part was most likely played on tenor. This is where the three tenor section becomes more usual, historically, though it isn't a slam dunk by any means. Well, that argument makes a hash of using any evidence from contemporary scores/parts for the argument. Has anyone looked at, say, the Vienna Phil's pay records? Do they document who played what pieces? Yes, the Vienna Phil at the time is pretty well-documented, even before this article. For other orchestras, he had to do some digging. I know some major players who play Brahms symphonies on an alto, while others shiver in disgust at the very concept. Modern practice is modern practice and doesn't really tell us anything about what Brahms might have wanted, or what his contemporaries would have done. No, I was just making a comment on how modern players use the same information to come to radically different conclusions for a modern performance. The original point (way, WAY back a number of quote levels ago!) was that ATB sections did not continue as far past the time of Beethoven as everyone previously thought, in the intents of the composers. Brahms, Dvorak, Rossini and Berlioz are the main composers affected. I don't think this writer has an axe to grind; he is just presenting the evidence that he dug up. It is a great resource for orchestral trombonists who are trying to understand the role of their instrument in certain repertoire, and shows how caution has to be applied when you rely too much on the appearance in the score. Seems to me that boils down to nothing more than being sure you're using critical scores, rather than depending on some Eulenberg miniature score that's probably 10 or more generations away from the composer's original (with some exceptions, of course -- the Bruckner scores are actually taken almost directly from the original bowdlerized editions of Bruckner's symphonies). No, even the autograph score won't give you all the information. Er, it gives you information, just not a definitive answer. We agree. I found the parts of the article I read to be rather vague on the historical information, to be honest. That's one of the reasons I don't find the musicological argument compelling, however good his advice may be on a practical basis. Yeah, that's the nature of old stuff where you have incomplete information. Even without all the facts, though, you still have to play the darned thing, and what are you going to do? You read between the lines and make your best decision based on what is there and what you are able to do. He WAS writing the article to guide players, and he makes no secret of that. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Document Styles
I have only just had a brief look at Fin2k9. I jumped from 2k7, so there are a few new things to learn. Is it true that Document Styles can only be applied to New Documents? Or is there a way to apply an existing style to an existing document? Otherwise I can't really see the point of it, all it really does is use different documents as Default Docs, no? I was hoping to get something like house styles in Sibelius. Oh well. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: Finale Digest, Vol 66, Issue 23
Both Mozart and Beethoven (and at least a few early Romantics) routinely write the bass trombone down to C. No valveless tenor can play this note. So much for that theory. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ The gap between the pedal BBb and the low E can — and often is — filled by good players with a mixture of lipping up- or downwards and falsett tones. It's standard technique. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Document Styles
On 22-Jan-09, at 22-Jan-09 11:48 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: I have only just had a brief look at Fin2k9. I jumped from 2k7, so there are a few new things to learn. Is it true that Document Styles can only be applied to New Documents? Or is there a way to apply an existing style to an existing document? Otherwise I can't really see the point of it, all it really does is use different documents as Default Docs, no? I was hoping to get something like house styles in Sibelius. Oh well. Johannes Johannes, You are correct. You can use different docs as default docs. That's the only new thing. But you can save ONE library that has a whole crapload of settings and import it into an existing document. Some things won't change (like fonts of text blocks, characters in articulations, etc.) but it's a start. You can also copy the old document INTO a new document, thus using the settings of the new doc. I find this useful for preserving my metatool assignments, though I have to reformat the parts completely, and I still have to swap out articulations and expressions manually (WHY isn't this easier? I would LOVE to be able to select ALL of the old articulations, delete them with one keystroke, and when Finale tells me that this articulation is in use and would I like to replace it, IT ACTUALLY TELLS ME WHAT ARTICULATION IT IS! Sheesh! Would that be so hard to code?) Another new thing that simplifies my life immensely is replacing articulations in specific passages. If you select several articulations at once across several notes or staves, then double-tap the metatool key for the new articulation, they switch! Like I want to change the staccato to a tenuto, I select all the staccatos, hit E twice, and they are all magically tenutos now! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Document Styles
On 22.01.2009 Christopher Smith wrote: Another new thing that simplifies my life immensely is replacing articulations in specific passages. If you select several articulations at once across several notes or staves, then double-tap the metatool key for the new articulation, they switch! Like I want to change the staccato to a tenuto, I select all the staccatos, hit E twice, and they are all magically tenutos now! This is not that new, though, it is in Fin2k7. I even remember beta-testing it then. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] FinMac09Playback of Repeats
Hi, I am trying to get something to play back with 1st and 2nd endings. I put in the endings using the contextual menu (first and second endings). When I play back, the repeating is fine, but on the second pass, the music does NOT jump to the second ending, but rather, just stops in the measure before the first ending. I tried the Repeat Menu item called check repeats. For a 12 measure piece, it shows (endings are one measure each, repeat goes back to measure 3): 1-11 3-10 12 That is the path I want. But when I listen back, the music stops, on the second pass, at measure 10 -- that is, measure 12 is left off. Is this a known bug? I have tried every setting I can think of in various repeat dialog boxes. Any ideas? Thanks, David Froom ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Document Styles
On 22-Jan-09, at 22-Jan-09 12:26 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 22.01.2009 Christopher Smith wrote: Another new thing that simplifies my life immensely is replacing articulations in specific passages. If you select several articulations at once across several notes or staves, then double- tap the metatool key for the new articulation, they switch! Like I want to change the staccato to a tenuto, I select all the staccatos, hit E twice, and they are all magically tenutos now! This is not that new, though, it is in Fin2k7. I even remember beta- testing it then. I guess not. 8-( New to me, though! 8-) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] O. T. Bach Icon
Good Day: There is a symbol used of Bach's name in a cross shaped icon, you can see here: http://www.bachakademie.de/ On the Bach Yahoo list, someone mentioned that BIS Records uses this symbol, but I'm at work and I don't have a CD handy. But the question was raised, was this symbol from the 18th century? Does anyone have more information on it? I'd be most grateful. Doesn't this icon spell Bach's name in musical notation or am I mistaken? Thanks Kim -- Kim Patrick Clow Early Music enthusiasts think outside the Bachs! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O. T. Bach Icon
Yes, it does spell B-A-C-H, with B in German being Bb, and H in German being B natural (as in Bach's Messe in H-moll, or Mass in B minor) Martin On Jan 22, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Good Day: There is a symbol used of Bach's name in a cross shaped icon, you can see here: http://www.bachakademie.de/ On the Bach Yahoo list, someone mentioned that BIS Records uses this symbol, but I'm at work and I don't have a CD handy. But the question was raised, was this symbol from the 18th century? Does anyone have more information on it? I'd be most grateful. Doesn't this icon spell Bach's name in musical notation or am I mistaken? Thanks Kim -- Kim Patrick Clow Early Music enthusiasts think outside the Bachs! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
David W. Fenton wrote: ... Yes, but it depends on what you're looking at -- what Beethoven intended, and what people actually managed to do at the time. Since we today (in most decent-sized orchestras) have the luxury of choosing the instruments to be used, I don't see much reason to worry about how people in the past got by. Good point, certainly. But we should know when the assumptions of the past, (that LVB wrote for ATB trombones and that's what they were played on, period) are wrong. I think any pro that doesn't play the Fifth on alto is asking for trouble, and I've heard some get the request answered. One point that both Shifrin and Weiner make (I have the benifit of having heard Shifrin give an energietic and informative lecture before this article was published, so, at this point, I don't recall which points came from which) is that several things could, and did happen: (1) a composer writes for alto trombone, expecting or hoping for an Eb alto; (2) a composer writes for a part labeled alto trombone, fully expecting it to be played on a Bb instrument which fills the role of alto trombone; (3) a composer writes a part for trombone one, and the publisher labeled the part alto out of tradition/function (this is certainly the case with Bruckner, whose first trombone parts could not be played on an alto trombone). Shifrin seems to have mostly examined parts and scores, while Weiner has done the more thorough search, looking for evidence of the instruments and players Shifrin does not eliminate the alto from the past as much as does Weiner. (I need to go make a xerox of the Weiner article so I can refresh my memory of it.) I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty which instrument LVB wrote the first trombone part of the Fifth symphony for. If one accepts Weiner's conclusions, the alto was not present in Vienna, but the part was extreme even for Eb alto, quite extreme, indeed, for a Bb alto. One should note that the trombone writing in that symphony is regarded as not the most effective, partly because of it's wide spacing - for example, the long high F (top line treble clef) is 'accompanied' by the tenor trombone down one octave and the bass trombone down _three_. ALSO, one has to note that LVB never wrote that high for first trombone again - conspicuously avoiding the high Ds in the Ninth Symphony fugue, for example. There are high D's in the Sixth Symphony, but, IIRC, wasn't that symphony actually premiered BEFORE the Fifth, on the same evening? (Which makes the answer to the question of In which symphony by a major composer where trombones first heard? a bit trickier.) (Also, the high Ds in the sixth are approached in a much easier fashion, making it much more playable on tenor.) This whole area of research has been more interesting to me as a bass trombonist, who has always assumed that the F bass trombone was standard, until replaced by a Bb with F valve. With both men's research we find that the F bass, throughout the classical and into the romantics, was often desired but rare and considered difficult to play. The modern large-bore tenor trombone with valve (Conn 88H, Bach 42B) got it's start sometime in the area of the 1850-60's as a replacement for the BASS trombone, being approximately the same bore size as the old F bass. But this Bb instrument that could, with the flip of the thumb (actually, that flip was not so easy, at first) become an F bass had new possibilities of timbre and agility and immediately came popular with several soloists and even the first and second players of some symphonies, so that by the start of the 20th century Mahler could write low valve notes for all three or four trombones in the section, and a still-larger Bb/F instrument was made for the lowest part. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra When you have the resources to do it according to the way Beethoven conceived it, I see no reason to argue that in the past it *wasn't* always performed that way. Now, if you're a community orchestra and lack the instruments, you could definitely use the argument that Beethoven's contemporaries made do, and that's fine. I don't see much need for arguments like that, since even though I'm all for historically informed performance, I believe that if that becomes a barrier to groups wanting to play the work, then it's better to toss performance practice and make do with what you have -- no need for any justification from historical practice needed! Vienna, which he often wrote for, had the trombones. Other cities, mostly not (the article mentions going tromboneless rather than using inferior players in subsequent performances.) Beethoven was enough of a pragmatist to know what was going to happen after the premier. There is stuff in the article that I didn't quote dealing with the extremes asked of the alto trombonist, too. But my understanding
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com wrote: If one accepts Weiner's conclusions, the alto was not present in Vienna, I'm reading this thread with considerable interest, without much to add. I will say that one of my favorite passages for alto trombone (when played on alto) is the scherzo of Schubert's Great C Major. The way the (as I recall, solo) alto trombone fits into the texture is a particularly subtle and atypical use of the trombone in standard orchestral literature. To me it is a perfect fit to the alto timbre. It is difficult for me to believe that Schubert might have expected it to be played on a Bb instrument. Obviously this is an appeal based on taste, not facts, so take it for what it is worth. But I am always grateful to those trombonists who choose to play it on alto for whatever reason. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
Actually, my former teacher from St. Louis Symphony said he stuck with the tenor for Beethoven 5 since the part laid better on it than on the alto. He did use his alto for the Oh Mensch, Gib Acht movement in Mahler 3. Since no one would have noticed if he hadn't said anything the blends worked very effectively in both cases. ajr David W. Fenton wrote: ... Yes, but it depends on what you're looking at -- what Beethoven intended, and what people actually managed to do at the time. Since we today (in most decent-sized orchestras) have the luxury of choosing the instruments to be used, I don't see much reason to worry about how people in the past got by. Good point, certainly. But we should know when the assumptions of the past, (that LVB wrote for ATB trombones and that's what they were played on, period) are wrong. I think any pro that doesn't play the Fifth on alto is asking for trouble, and I've heard some get the request answered. One point that both Shifrin and Weiner make (I have the benifit of having heard Shifrin give an energietic and informative lecture before this article was published, so, at this point, I don't recall which points came from which) is that several things could, and did happen: (1) a composer writes for alto trombone, expecting or hoping for an Eb alto; (2) a composer writes for a part labeled alto trombone, fully expecting it to be played on a Bb instrument which fills the role of alto trombone; (3) a composer writes a part for trombone one, and the publisher labeled the part alto out of tradition/function (this is certainly the case with Bruckner, whose first trombone parts could not be played on an alto trombone). Shifrin seems to have mostly examined parts and scores, while Weiner has done the more thorough search, looking for evidence of the instruments and players Shifrin does not eliminate the alto from the past as much as does Weiner. (I need to go make a xerox of the Weiner article so I can refresh my memory of it.) I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty which instrument LVB wrote the first trombone part of the Fifth symphony for. If one accepts Weiner's conclusions, the alto was not present in Vienna, but the part was extreme even for Eb alto, quite extreme, indeed, for a Bb alto. One should note that the trombone writing in that symphony is regarded as not the most effective, partly because of it's wide spacing - for example, the long high F (top line treble clef) is 'accompanied' by the tenor trombone down one octave and the bass trombone down _three_. ALSO, one has to note that LVB never wrote that high for first trombone again - conspicuously avoiding the high Ds in the Ninth Symphony fugue, for example. There are high D's in the Sixth Symphony, but, IIRC, wasn't that symphony actually premiered BEFORE the Fifth, on the same evening? (Which makes the answer to the question of In which symphony by a major composer where trombones first heard? a bit trickier.) (Also, the high Ds in the sixth are approached in a much easier fashion, making it much more playable on tenor.) This whole area of research has been more interesting to me as a bass trombonist, who has always assumed that the F bass trombone was standard, until replaced by a Bb with F valve. With both men's research we find that the F bass, throughout the classical and into the romantics, was often desired but rare and considered difficult to play. The modern large-bore tenor trombone with valve (Conn 88H, Bach 42B) got it's start sometime in the area of the 1850-60's as a replacement for the BASS trombone, being approximately the same bore size as the old F bass. But this Bb instrument that could, with the flip of the thumb (actually, that flip was not so easy, at first) become an F bass had new possibilities of timbre and agility and immediately came popular with several soloists and even the first and second players of some symphonies, so that by the start of the 20th century Mahler could write low valve notes for all three or four trombones in the section, and a still-larger Bb/F instrument was made for the lowest part. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra When you have the resources to do it according to the way Beethoven conceived it, I see no reason to argue that in the past it *wasn't* always performed that way. Now, if you're a community orchestra and lack the instruments, you could definitely use the argument that Beethoven's contemporaries made do, and that's fine. I don't see much need for arguments like that, since even though I'm all for historically informed performance, I believe that if that becomes a barrier to groups wanting to play the work, then it's better to toss performance practice and make do with what you have -- no need for any justification from historical practice needed! Vienna, which he often wrote for, had the trombones. Other cities, mostly not (the article
Re: [Finale] FinMac09Playback of Repeats
David Froom wrote: Hi, I am trying to get something to play back with 1st and 2nd endings. I put in the endings using the contextual menu (first and second endings). When I play back, the repeating is fine, but on the second pass, the music does NOT jump to the second ending, but rather, just stops in the measure before the first ending. I tried the Repeat Menu item called check repeats. For a 12 measure piece, it shows (endings are one measure each, repeat goes back to measure 3): 1-11 3-10 12 That is the path I want. But when I listen back, the music stops, on the second pass, at measure 10 -- that is, measure 12 is left off. Is this a known bug? I have tried every setting I can think of in various repeat dialog boxes. Any ideas? Open the repeat tool and double-click on the opening bracket for the first ending, and make sure it is defined to Jump On Pass with the Pass set to 2 and then make sure the target measure is measure 12. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O. T. Bach Icon
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM, dc den...@free.fr wrote: Yes, four different clefs (or rather 3 clefs, one of which with 2 different key signatures) spelling out BACH. Davitt Moroney used it on the cover of his little book on Bach. Thanks Dennis, do you know if this is a copyrighted symbol (I doubt that is, but just curious) or the origin of it? Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
Consider that the Bb trombone of 1820 was a smaller bore than nearly any Eb alto trombone today. But, of course, all of the other instruments were different, too. Raymond Horton Robert Patterson wrote: On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com wrote: If one accepts Weiner's conclusions, the alto was not present in Vienna, I'm reading this thread with considerable interest, without much to add. I will say that one of my favorite passages for alto trombone (when played on alto) is the scherzo of Schubert's Great C Major. The way the (as I recall, solo) alto trombone fits into the texture is a particularly subtle and atypical use of the trombone in standard orchestral literature. To me it is a perfect fit to the alto timbre. It is difficult for me to believe that Schubert might have expected it to be played on a Bb instrument. Obviously this is an appeal based on taste, not facts, so take it for what it is worth. But I am always grateful to those trombonists who choose to play it on alto for whatever reason. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On 22-Jan-09, at 22-Jan-09 2:42 PM, Ray Horton wrote: This whole area of research has been more interesting to me as a bass trombonist, who has always assumed that the F bass trombone was standard, until replaced by a Bb with F valve. With both men's research we find that the F bass, throughout the classical and into the romantics, was often desired but rare and considered difficult to play. I heard a G bass trombone (!) played by the bass trombonist for the Czech national orchestra back in 1981 or 82, when it was still part of the USSR. It was the only instrument he had ever played, since he was an adolescent, and he used it exclusively for all bass trombone parts played by the orchestra. He was sixty or so at the time, and played beautifully. The sound was like nothing we had ever heard before, and he admitted that it suited some repertoire better than others, but he had to play it regardless. I couldn't imagine Mahler FFF on it, as it was more like a sackbut in timbre, but it was impressive, and his control was impeccable. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Document Styles
It's new to 2k9 for articulations --AF On Jan 22, 2009, at 11:26 AM, Johannes Gebauer li...@musikmanufaktur.com wrote: On 22.01.2009 Christopher Smith wrote: Another new thing that simplifies my life immensely is replacing articulations in specific passages. If you select several articulations at once across several notes or staves, then double- tap the metatool key for the new articulation, they switch! Like I want to change the staccato to a tenuto, I select all the staccatos, hit E twice, and they are all magically tenutos now! This is not that new, though, it is in Fin2k7. I even remember beta- testing it then. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O. T. Bach Icon
I would also love to know its origin. Some have suggested Bach himself, and it certainly fits in with what we know of him and his manipulation of manuscript. David McKay 2009/1/23 Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM, dc den...@free.fr wrote: Yes, four different clefs (or rather 3 clefs, one of which with 2 different key signatures) spelling out BACH. Davitt Moroney used it on the cover of his little book on Bach. Thanks Dennis, do you know if this is a copyrighted symbol (I doubt that is, but just curious) or the origin of it? Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- www.gontroppo.blogspot.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O. T. Bach Icon
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Thanks Dennis, do you know if this is a copyrighted symbol (I doubt that is, but just curious) or the origin of it? I don't know whether the image you link to is copyright, or not. Best way to determine that would be to ask. My own inclination would be to assume that it is. An image search using the parameters Bach symbol, and B-A-C-H symbol show his monogram, http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/monogram.gif which is much more in tune with what I would have expected from Bach's time than the crossed staves with four clefs. But I am not, and do not claim to be an expert on the development of music iconography. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
Interesting. The small-bore G bass trombone was common in England for years, not completely fading out until the 1960s. I didn't know it was played in Eastern Europe at all. RBH Christopher Smith wrote: On 22-Jan-09, at 22-Jan-09 2:42 PM, Ray Horton wrote: This whole area of research has been more interesting to me as a bass trombonist, who has always assumed that the F bass trombone was standard, until replaced by a Bb with F valve. With both men's research we find that the F bass, throughout the classical and into the romantics, was often desired but rare and considered difficult to play. I heard a G bass trombone (!) played by the bass trombonist for the Czech national orchestra back in 1981 or 82, when it was still part of the USSR. It was the only instrument he had ever played, since he was an adolescent, and he used it exclusively for all bass trombone parts played by the orchestra. He was sixty or so at the time, and played beautifully. The sound was like nothing we had ever heard before, and he admitted that it suited some repertoire better than others, but he had to play it regardless. I couldn't imagine Mahler FFF on it, as it was more like a sackbut in timbre, but it was impressive, and his control was impeccable. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
2009/1/22 Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com Interesting. The small-bore G bass trombone was common in England for years, not completely fading out until the 1960s. I didn't know it was played in Eastern Europe at all. The G bass trombone with it's handle was still around (though rare) in England in the early 70's - I had the misfortune to have to teach someone on the thing! Cheers, Lawrence Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O. T. Bach Icon
Harold Owen shows almost the same symbol as a kind of puzzle in one of the exercises his book Music Theory Resource Book. There is no mention to the inventor, or to the origin of it though. J. On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM, dc den...@free.fr wrote: Yes, four different clefs (or rather 3 clefs, one of which with 2 different key signatures) spelling out BACH. Davitt Moroney used it on the cover of his little book on Bach. Thanks Dennis, do you know if this is a copyrighted symbol (I doubt that is, but just curious) or the origin of it? Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O. T. Bach Icon
I don't see how the image can be copyright, though a given version of it might be. David McKay 2009/1/23 Javier Ruiz jruizl...@retemail.es Harold Owen shows almost the same symbol as a kind of puzzle in one of the exercises his book Music Theory Resource Book. There is no mention to the inventor, or to the origin of it though. J. On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM, dc den...@free.fr wrote: Yes, four different clefs (or rather 3 clefs, one of which with 2 different key signatures) spelling out BACH. Davitt Moroney used it on the cover of his little book on Bach. Thanks Dennis, do you know if this is a copyrighted symbol (I doubt that is, but just curious) or the origin of it? Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- www.gontroppo.blogspot.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Vile Midi Export from Finale
Hi Bob... and thanks for your encouraging reply. It's good I'm not alone in this. I've gone back and tried None, in addition to almost all the HP exports. I've even gone so far as trying it with Finale Notepad 2009. Apparently the guys as Finale (and I do hope you're listening up there) think that when an eighth note is notated, what we REALLY mean is a sixteenth with a a sixteenth rest and so on. In addition, there odd anticipations on quarter notes. I find it unconscionable that this has been allowed to continue thru the eons that Finale has been around. It should not be necessary to quantize durations upon export. A quarter is a quarter, an eighth an eighth, a sixteenth is a sixteenth. Sheesh Finale! Regards, Earl In a message dated 1/22/09 4:43:53 PM, finale-requ...@shsu.edu writes: From: Bob Morabito bobmorab...@optonline.net Subject: Re: [Finale] Help Please: Midi Export from Finale as Notated To: finale@shsu.edu Message-ID: c794596b-fe04-4ae6-86e3-73f07d316...@optonline.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Earl--I went into this in great detail with MM support, and then their Notation specialist, a long while ago, for many weeks-but this happened to me with Midi IMPORT. And with me, the truncated durations resulted in repeated notes. The problem as they insist, is in include voice two--that had to be checked, and I had to submit a feature request for 3 or more voices-- and the way it is now, it ruins a good job Finale can sometimes do in importing midi files.- but again, mine was to do with importing midi files, and the repeated notes, and truncations did show up in FIns onscreen notation and in the exported midi file.. Coincidentally, Im in contact with them again, about this stuff-- and the ONLY thing the sup'v says thats needed to export a midi file of FInales on screen notation is to have HP OFF. NOTHING else-( I had thought those playback options had to be unchecked, but he claims not_) Bob ** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Vile Midi Export from Finale
Hi Earl-- There's also a problem with using Finale Notepad, as I tried that also, under the same circumstances:) You cant quantize smaller than a 32nd, without getting an error message, and there's no place to enter EDU's. MM support conforms this problem, and also states: a version with a fix for this issue may not be available for some time. I have confirmed that this is not an issue in Finale 2009 I can confirm this defect and have notified our engineers. This is a problem with the Macintosh version of NotePad, and is also an issue in the latest version of Finale NotePad (version 2009). Also, I still am not able to tell,: 1)if you have the CORRECT notation on screen, and it then exports a Midi file with the truncated durations (any repeated notes?), or 2) if its IMPORTED wrongly and the truncated durations and repeated notes DO show up on your screen, and thus are in your exported midi file.. If its the latter, I can suggest a set of settings that have greatly reduced (and in some instances totally removed) the truncated durations/repeated notes problem for me, and have posted them here before. Please let me know.. I find it unconscionable that this has been allowed to continue thru the eons that Finale has been around Notation of Midi files sadly isn't high on ANYONES priority list., but this truncated durations/repeated notes problem is really a shame, and a deal breaker. Thanks Bob On Jan 22, 2009, at 6:53 PM, earlrs...@aol.com wrote: Hi Bob... and thanks for your encouraging reply. It's good I'm not alone in this. I've gone back and tried None, in addition to almost all the HP exports. I've even gone so far as trying it with Finale Notepad 2009. Apparently the guys as Finale (and I do hope you're listening up there) think that when an eighth note is notated, what we REALLY mean is a sixteenth with a a sixteenth rest and so on. In addition, there odd anticipations on quarter notes. I find it unconscionable that this has been allowed to continue thru the eons that Finale has been around. It should not be necessary to quantize durations upon export. A quarter is a quarter, an eighth an eighth, a sixteenth is a sixteenth. Sheesh Finale! Regards, Earl In a message dated 1/22/09 4:43:53 PM, finale-requ...@shsu.edu writes: From: Bob Morabito bobmorab...@optonline.net Subject: Re: [Finale] Help Please: Midi Export from Finale as Notated To: finale@shsu.edu Message-ID: c794596b-fe04-4ae6-86e3-73f07d316...@optonline.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Earl--I went into this in great detail with MM support, and then their Notation specialist, a long while ago, for many weeks-but this happened to me with Midi IMPORT. And with me, the truncated durations resulted in repeated notes. The problem as they insist, is in include voice two--that had to be checked, and I had to submit a feature request for 3 or more voices-- and the way it is now, it ruins a good job Finale can sometimes do in importing midi files.- but again, mine was to do with importing midi files, and the repeated notes, and truncations did show up in FIns onscreen notation and in the exported midi file.. Coincidentally, Im in contact with them again, about this stuff-- and the ONLY thing the sup'v says thats needed to export a midi file of FInales on screen notation is to have HP OFF. NOTHING else-( I had thought those playback options had to be unchecked, but he claims not_) Bob ** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol? redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072% 26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
Good luck with that! Professionally, I think the G bass trombone died in the 60s. They were helped to their demise by the late Ray Premru, an American bass trombonist who went to England in the early 60s and started taking jobs away from Brits with his great sound on the Bb/F bass trombone. He played in the Philharmonia mostly, plus he can be heard on some of the Beatles records (Sgt Peppers, I know) and all of the early James Bond films. The G bass trombone is the reason, in case anyone wonders, for the bass trombone being the only instrument in the British brass band (other than timpani) not written in treble clef and in either Bb or Eb. The G bass trombone was desired, but often replaced by a Bb tenor when the former was not available, so the part was written in bass clef, concert pitch, in order that it could be read by either instrument. Probably a similar situation to the bass and alto trombone for classical composers, except that transposition was not involved in the latter situation. Basic knowledge if the G bass trombone is helpful for playing the bass trombone parts of Elgar, Holst, and the other Brits. For example, a thorny passage in the Jupiter movement of Holst's _The Planets_ can be made much easier when one knows that the trombonist-composer left out one 16th note because of it's difficulty on the long-slided G instrument. RBH Lawrence Yates wrote: The G bass trombone with it's handle was still around (though rare) in England in the early 70's - I had the misfortune to have to teach someone on the thing! Cheers, Lawrence Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list [1]fin...@shsu.edu [2]http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale References 1. mailto:Finale@shsu.edu 2. http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Default font for part names FinMac2009a
Hi Chris, Linked part names go in as a text *insert*. Like any other text insert (title, composer, copyright, etc), it inherits the existing font settings for the text block that hosts the insert. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY On 19 Jan 2009, at 5:30 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Collective wisdom, Where does one set the default font for linked part names? How do I change the font for all the names of the parts (not the STAVES, for which we already have a beautiful little plugin called Global Staff Attributes)? thanks, Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT trombones in Beethoven
On Jan 22, 2009, at 1:46 AM, Ray Horton wrote: The Eb down to C in question can be played in 4th through 7th position. On modern instruments, played by players who do not cultivate this series of notes, there is a noticeable timbre difference, but on smaller bore instruments, the sound can be cultivated to match well. [...] Often when a player gives up an F-attachment for the cleaner-blowing tenor without a valve, they will work on this falset range to cover occasional low notes. I just *knew* when I wrote that someone was bound to bring up the subject of privileged frequencies (which is what you and others mean when you speak of falsett tones). and I wondered whether I should bring them up myself. Naah, I decided. Too pedantic. And here I am, after all, discussing them. When it comes right down to it, any brass instrument can play any note from about F# below the piano up to g''' or higher. I had been very reluctant to believe such a thing until Don Harry of the Buffalo Philharmonic demonstrated it to me by playing the 2nd Brandenburg trumpet part (in the correct key and octave) on his contrabass tuba. He affirmed to me very strongly that the same unlimited range was available on the trumpet as well--and in my presence got a trumpeter to agree, after some hemming and hawing, that this was true. But of course this is not a *practical* range on any instrument--but it means that the real top and bottom limits are fuzzy and somewhat arbitrary. So yes, the appearance of one or two unusually high or low notes in a given brass part do not necessarily imply the existence of an instrument designed and built to play these notes in an everyday context. Privileged frequencies are unstable, difficult to hit, and cannot be reasonably expected to be produced at high volume. They lie by definition outside the normal range of the instrument, so that if one is used, it will normally be very clear that the composer has chosen to descend below the instrument's usual range. A very high level of expertise is being thrown around in this thread, both by trombonists and musicologists, so I am going to retreat here into the music of a composer on whose music ( I am surprised to find) I am now considered the leading authority: Anthony Philip Heinrich (1781- 1861)--an American contemporary of Weber. Heinrich's 40 or so orchestral works are all preserved in single MS copies--no multiple MSS, no publications, only 2 or 3 sets of parts. About half the MSS are autograph, and the rest in the hand of (usually) named copyists. The composer's orchestration is famously flamboyant and adventurous (ranking with Berlioz in that regard), but his writing for individual instruments is very conservative. His range for the flute is *always* d' to a'''. He *never* writes the low B-natural for bassoon. For timpani he *always* writes for just 2 drums, tuned a fourth or fifth apart. So what about his trombone writing? He *always* writes for three trombones, on a single staff, in whatever clef is convenient. The staff is *always* named 3 Tomboni (alto, tenore, e basso). The section is led from the bottom--that is, if only one trb. plays, it is the bass; if two play, they are bass and tenor. I observe this same practice in Beethoven--at least, throughout Fidelio. Heinrich *always* takes the btrb. down to low C at least once in *every single piece* that I have examined. He *never* writes lower, and he *never* takes the tenor below E. Since, in addition, he does not hesitate to call for the lowest btrb. notes as loud as ff and even fff, there cannot be, it seems to me, the slightest doubt that he considered these notes to be a standard part of the instrument's range. Remember now that this must be read as a *conservative* arrangement, since H. writes conservatively for all the other instruments. He writes, in fact, for the models of instruments that were available in Europe before he left for the States in 1816. He didn't write for any actual orchestra (American orchestras of the day simply could not master his scores), but for an ideal one. But that does not mean that he wrote for non-existent instruments, or that he misunderstood the range of the bass trombone. Given his extraordinarily idiomatic and practical writing for *every other instrument* in *every* score, I regard it as unlikely in the extreme that for the bass trombone, and *only* for the bass trombone, did he consistently misunderstand the range throughout an orchestral composing career spanning more than 30 years. [...]there are some low notes in the classics, but not as many as you might think, when you start looking at them. You say 'Beethoven routinely wrote down to C.' But I know of no Beethoven bass trombone part that extends below F, including passages in _Fidelio_ and the Ninth which studiously avoid obvious places for lower notes [...] As far as Mozart - I believe there are a few low
Re: [Finale] OT trombones in Beethoven
Andrew, Regarding the falset notes, which you call Privileged frequencies ... unstable ... and imply that A very high level of expertise is needed for them: I teach them to junior high students, so when they purchase a trombone with a valve they are already used to the range below the staff. Yes, anyone can force any note on any brass instrument, pretty much, but these falset notes are more than that - they a specific partial on their own, which, particularly on small bore trombones. can center in quite well with practice, and are not in the least bit difficult. Weiner's documentation of the falset register in early position charts and other documents is one of his principal contributions to this study. The mention of Heinrich is an interesting addition to this thread. I am certainly no expert on the man, but as a native Kentuckian who still lives just a few miles from the state, I have read some with interest of this man who transplanted himself from Europe, eventually to a log cabin in Bardstown, Kentucky. (I have tried to interest a local choral society conductor into a performance of the entire _The Dawning of Music in Kentucky, or the Pleasures of Harmony in the Solitudes of Nature_ to no avail, so far.) I think we can I nominate Heinrich as a composer who often wrote things he had no hope of hearing, correct? He is famous for leading the first performance of a Beethoven Symphony in the US, in Lexington KY in 1817, but as the author of a book I read last year (can't remember - I'll look it up if anybody cares) wrote - what could that performance have sounded like? What did he use for bassoons? I would venture to presume that the F bass trombone was very rare in this country during the years Heinrich was here, writing for it and that he was writing theoretically - unless, again, he was writing for a tenor playing falset notes. Several decades later - in the late 1800s and early 1900s the Sousa-era trombone soloists used these notes quite frequently - the positions are printed in many of their MS's and published version of their solos. But as we have seen, Beethoven may have been writing for an alto trombone he knew of, but which was not around at the time. (Who knows if the high F was played at the premiere of the Fifth?) The same is certainly true, in 1943, for Bartok. Writing the _Concerto for Orchestra_ for the Boston Symphony, he wrote idiomatically for the archaic F bass trombone he learned, many years before, in his native land. (And Christopher told us of hearing a G bass trombone played in Czech national orchestra in the early 1980's, so who knows if it was still around in 1943?) So B. wrote a glissando that, being basically impossible on the Bb/F bass trombone currently in use, did more to spur the addition of a second valve to the modern bass trombone than any thing else. I have not looked at Forsythe in years. For the composers, he has it backwards. Beethoven did not descend below tenor range, Mozart did very rarely, but Weber does frequently - and the _Freischütz_ Overture has a nice low C in it! Raymond Horton Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jan 22, 2009, at 1:46 AM, Ray Horton wrote: The Eb down to C in question can be played in 4th through 7th position. On modern instruments, played by players who do not cultivate this series of notes, there is a noticeable timbre difference, but on smaller bore instruments, the sound can be cultivated to match well. [...] Often when a player gives up an F-attachment for the cleaner-blowing tenor without a valve, they will work on this falset range to cover occasional low notes. I just *knew* when I wrote that someone was bound to bring up the subject of privileged frequencies (which is what you and others mean when you speak of falsett tones). and I wondered whether I should bring them up myself. Naah, I decided. Too pedantic. And here I am, after all, discussing them. When it comes right down to it, any brass instrument can play any note from about F# below the piano up to g''' or higher. I had been very reluctant to believe such a thing until Don Harry of the Buffalo Philharmonic demonstrated it to me by playing the 2nd Brandenburg trumpet part (in the correct key and octave) on his contrabass tuba. He affirmed to me very strongly that the same unlimited range was available on the trumpet as well--and in my presence got a trumpeter to agree, after some hemming and hawing, that this was true. But of course this is not a *practical* range on any instrument--but it means that the real top and bottom limits are fuzzy and somewhat arbitrary. So yes, the appearance of one or two unusually high or low notes in a given brass part do not necessarily imply the existence of an instrument designed and built to play these notes in an everyday context. Privileged frequencies are unstable, difficult to hit, and cannot be reasonably expected to be
Re: [Finale] O. T. Bach Icon
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 1:14 AM, dc den...@free.fr wrote: . Very tangentely Finale-related: the nice version with Bach-style old clefs used on the cover of Davitt Moroney's Bach book (the original edition, in French) was actually done specially for the book by Dominique Montel (creator of the Berlioz notation program). www.collins.lautre.net/files/bach.jpg Thanks Dennis for all your help, the book cover is absolutely beautiful, especially the typography. Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
