Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
You can certainly get hold of a score of Cosi Fan Tutte at http://imslp.org/ If the score is correctly engraved, you will see a long fermata over the whole of measure 26 in the Terzetto N° 2. The rhythm is dotted half note - quarter note, for Ferrando, Guglielmo and all the violins. In this case I simply go from beating in 2 to beating in 4, using the left hand to clearly indicate the two notes for the violins. There are surely other ways to notate what Mozart wanted, but this way is perfectly clear, at least for an orchestra used to playing opera. In Aaron's case, I see no problem with the wide fermata. I'd add dictated since it apparently accompanies dance moves. On 11 Feb 2012, at 19:24, John Howell wrote: At 11:32 AM +0100 2/11/12, Florence + Michael wrote: Wide fermatas are old notation: Mozart used them, for instance. In his operas you can find instances of wide fermatas over two or more notes. In most cases it's the singer who has several notes while the orchestra holds one note, but there are cases where the fermata extends over more than one note in the orchestra parts as well (for instance Cosi Fan Tutte, N° 2). Here Mozart writes colla parte. Thanks for that. I had never seen it, and I'd be curious about how it was written (or engraved). But in Mozart's case (and most other 18th century composers, for that matter), a fermata was very specificlly used to indicate where the soloist was to improvise a cadenza. (It was also used, of course, to indicate a Fine point after a Da Capo.) So in the case you describe, I would suspect that for the soloist it was a cadenza indication (which would, of course, break the tempo), while for the orchestra it might be an indication NOT to cut off and leave the soloist alone, which would otherwise have been the default behavior. Could you possibly give an example? The only score I actually have at hand is the piano-vocal score to Don Giovanni. Just to clarify my original point, I wasn't saying that this (or any other notational convention) should NOT be used, but that the composer might want to ask whether he or she is writing for musicians who will understand it and interpret it appropriately. And no matter where or when this may have been used, or by whom, it still isn't standard practice. (If it were, Finale would include it, right?!!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
I would consider, as someone previously pointed out, bringing the same information to all players. As my opinion, I would probably consider using a fermata symbol for each player plus an ossia measure, much smaller in percentage, with the four sixteenth notes played by the soloist; I'd also specify the instrument's name playing the four notes just prior the ossia measures. The soloist could have a wide stretched fermata sign as well as four single ones, in any case, this should also be specified in all parts, in their ossia measures. Additionally, I would also consider inserting a special time text signature over the four notes, such as freely, liberamente, etc... instead of four single fermatas or a single wide one. In any case, any chosen solution for the soloist would always be reflected in the ossia measures and all the single notes below the ossia measures, played by the other instrumentalists, would have a single fermata sign. Giovanni Giovanni Andreani www.giovanniandreani.eu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
and in the parts? You can certainly get hold of a score of Cosi Fan Tutte at http://imslp.org/ If the score is correctly engraved, you will see a long fermata over the whole of measure 26 in the Terzetto N° 2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
In the parts it's the same as in the score (at least in the Bärenreiter edition): the violins (who play a dotted half + quarter) have a long fermata extending over the whole measure, the other instruments (who play a quarter on beat one followed by rests) have a long fermata extending over the rests. On 12 Feb 2012, at 20:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: and in the parts? You can certainly get hold of a score of Cosi Fan Tutte at http://imslp.org/ If the score is correctly engraved, you will see a long fermata over the whole of measure 26 in the Terzetto N° 2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
In the Barenreiter, since the violins have the same rhythm as the voices, they also get the indication 'colla parte'. The Dover/Peters score has slightly different notation. You can see both here: http://aaron.sherber.com/files/cosi.png (In the Peters, m.27 is a problem. The flutes should have two half note rests with a fermata on the first, rather than a whole note rest with a fermata. Otherwise, they have no way of knowing that tempo resumes on beat 3.) Aaron. On 2/12/2012 3:57 PM, Florence + Michael wrote: In the parts it's the same as in the score (at least in the Bärenreiter edition): the violins (who play a dotted half + quarter) have a long fermata extending over the whole measure, the other instruments (who play a quarter on beat one followed by rests) have a long fermata extending over the rests. On 12 Feb 2012, at 20:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: and in the parts? You can certainly get hold of a score of Cosi Fan Tutte at http://imslp.org/ If the score is correctly engraved, you will see a long fermata over the whole of measure 26 in the Terzetto N° 2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 4:42 PM -0500 2/12/12, Aaron Sherber wrote: In the Barenreiter, since the violins have the same rhythm as the voices, they also get the indication 'colla parte'. The Dover/Peters score has slightly different notation. You can see both here: http://aaron.sherber.com/files/cosi.png (In the Peters, m.27 is a problem. The flutes should have two half note rests with a fermata on the first, rather than a whole note rest with a fermata. Otherwise, they have no way of knowing that tempo resumes on beat 3.) Aaron. For what it's worth, I MUCH prefer the Peters (except for the flutes, in which colla parte makes no sense because they do NOT move with the voice), because using the conventional fermata and being careful with its placement seems much clearer than the expanded one. In fact the expanded one simply looks like a weird slur in its widest form. OK, I'm old fashioned. It'd still be interesting to see Mozart's handwriting. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
It seems that after so much discussion (now missing the colorful voice of David Fenton), there is a consensus which is that the long fermata requested is not possible in Finale without a lot of hoop-jumping. Having seen the two versions of Cosi, it occurred to me that Aaron could try a Finale-friendly notation that is not exactly what he's looking for but may get the point across. That is a custom line with a normal fermata centered in it, something like: |---U---| (Where U is a fermata.) On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:01 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: At 4:42 PM -0500 2/12/12, Aaron Sherber wrote: In the Barenreiter, since the violins have the same rhythm as the voices, they also get the indication 'colla parte'. The Dover/Peters score has slightly different notation. You can see both here: http://aaron.sherber.com/files/cosi.png (In the Peters, m.27 is a problem. The flutes should have two half note rests with a fermata on the first, rather than a whole note rest with a fermata. Otherwise, they have no way of knowing that tempo resumes on beat 3.) Aaron. For what it's worth, I MUCH prefer the Peters (except for the flutes, in which colla parte makes no sense because they do NOT move with the voice), because using the conventional fermata and being careful with its placement seems much clearer than the expanded one. In fact the expanded one simply looks like a weird slur in its widest form. OK, I'm old fashioned. It'd still be interesting to see Mozart's handwriting. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/12/2012 6:01 PM, John Howell wrote: For what it's worth, I MUCH prefer the Peters (except for the flutes, in which colla parte makes no sense because they do NOT move with the voice), because using the conventional fermata and being careful with its placement seems much clearer than the expanded one. I agree that the Peters notation for the instruments with rests seems clearer than the Barenreiter notation. I think the colla parte in the flutes may just be a misprint; I have the parts up in my attic but can't get to them right now. It'd still be interesting to see Mozart's handwriting. John As it happens, I'll be somewhere tomorrow with a facsimile of the ms. I'll post a picture. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/12/2012 6:26 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Having seen the two versions of Cosi, it occurred to me that Aaron could try a Finale-friendly notation that is not exactly what he's looking for but may get the point across. That is a custom line with a normal fermata centered in it, something like: Thanks, Robert, that's a very interesting idea. I just tried it, and it doesn't look bad. I can't find a way in the custom line tool to leave a space in the middle of the line, so the fermata is just floating a little above it, as Center Full text. I do suspect it will require a word of explanation to the player, though. (As opposed to the wide slur, which I think is more likely to be understood.) Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Dang you're right. I don't see any way to break the line in the middle, and I was sure there was one, too. On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Aaron Sherber aa...@sherber.com wrote: On 2/12/2012 6:26 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Having seen the two versions of Cosi, it occurred to me that Aaron could try a Finale-friendly notation that is not exactly what he's looking for but may get the point across. That is a custom line with a normal fermata centered in it, something like: Thanks, Robert, that's a very interesting idea. I just tried it, and it doesn't look bad. I can't find a way in the custom line tool to leave a space in the middle of the line, so the fermata is just floating a little above it, as Center Full text. I do suspect it will require a word of explanation to the player, though. (As opposed to the wide slur, which I think is more likely to be understood.) Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
You could do it in the shape designer, but that's pretty painful. On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote: Dang you're right. I don't see any way to break the line in the middle, and I was sure there was one, too. On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Aaron Sherber aa...@sherber.com wrote: On 2/12/2012 6:26 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Having seen the two versions of Cosi, it occurred to me that Aaron could try a Finale-friendly notation that is not exactly what he's looking for but may get the point across. That is a custom line with a normal fermata centered in it, something like: Thanks, Robert, that's a very interesting idea. I just tried it, and it doesn't look bad. I can't find a way in the custom line tool to leave a space in the middle of the line, so the fermata is just floating a little above it, as Center Full text. I do suspect it will require a word of explanation to the player, though. (As opposed to the wide slur, which I think is more likely to be understood.) Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 7:08 PM -0600 2/12/12, Robert Patterson wrote: Dang you're right. I don't see any way to break the line in the middle, and I was sure there was one, too. Hmmm. Sibelius has both a start (left) bracket and an end (right) bracket under the Lines menu, although neither is dotted. Very handy for indicating ligatures or coloration in transcriptions of early notation. Does Finale lack these? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/12/2012 9:00 PM, John Howell wrote: Hmmm. Sibelius has both a start (left) bracket and an end (right) bracket under the Lines menu, although neither is dotted. Very handy for indicating ligatures or coloration in transcriptions of early notation. Does Finale lack these? Finale has these, but then I'd be placing three things in the score -- a left bracket, a fermata, and a right bracket. I think Robert's intention (and my hope) was a single custom line with a left hook, fermata in the middle, and right hook. But although Finale can put text in the middle of a custom line, it apparently does not break the line to do so; it floats the text (fermata, in this case) above the line. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On Sun Feb 12, at SundayFeb 12 9:17 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: Finale has these, but then I'd be placing three things in the score -- a left bracket, a fermata, and a right bracket. I think Robert's intention (and my hope) was a single custom line with a left hook, fermata in the middle, and right hook. But although Finale can put text in the middle of a custom line, it apparently does not break the line to do so; it floats the text (fermata, in this case) above the line. Aaron. If you make the fermata an expression with an opaque enclosure (zero lines), then you only have to place two items: the dotted smart line and the fermata, which I am hoping might cover the smart line if it operates as it should. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
I would share you hope as the best solution too, but a solid, or dashed line with a fermata centered above it wouldn't look too funky I think. Dean On Feb 12, 2012, at 6:17 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: On 2/12/2012 9:00 PM, John Howell wrote: Hmmm. Sibelius has both a start (left) bracket and an end (right) bracket under the Lines menu, although neither is dotted. Very handy for indicating ligatures or coloration in transcriptions of early notation. Does Finale lack these? Finale has these, but then I'd be placing three things in the score -- a left bracket, a fermata, and a right bracket. I think Robert's intention (and my hope) was a single custom line with a left hook, fermata in the middle, and right hook. But although Finale can put text in the middle of a custom line, it apparently does not break the line to do so; it floats the text (fermata, in this case) above the line. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale The perfect drive..a diminishing sphere of white impaling the azure heavens in a graceful ellipticheight and distance vying for supremacy..compatriot's jowls lax, eyes huge, their raucous paeans thinly veiling jealousy..one stroke justifying a capricious investment in the titanium industry. Dean M. Estabrook http://sites.google.com/site/deanestabrook/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
