Re: [Finale] Garritan band library - Avoiding simultaneous attacks
On 4/24/2013 9:09 AM, Williams, Jim wrote: 5.it is imperative to avoid simultaneous attacks. HP does that to some extent, but I haven't taken the time to determine how much. How do you do that? Is that the setting in HP preferences - Tempo variations called Don't randomize (exact timing)? I find that I must keep that box checked on anything that isn't a swing tune because even when I have swing values set to zero, HP still plays SOME of the voices swingy. This ruins any Latin tune. I find this uncontrollable urge while sitting at my computer to look back over my shoulder and shout at the trumpets Straight eights, dammit!!. Fortunately the Garritan trumpet section isn't able to retaliate by screeching right into my ears -- at least they haven't so far. So you see, that is clear evidence that HP isn't like real trumpet players. :) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan band library - Avoiding simultaneous attacks
On Sun May 5, at SundayMay 5 11:20 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote: I find this uncontrollable urge while sitting at my computer to look back over my shoulder and shout at the trumpets Straight eights, dammit!!. Try yelling Even eighths instead. Maybe the HP, like some trumpet players, thinks that straight is a pejorative term. ;-) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan band library - Avoiding simultaneous attacks
Craig... several functions are in play here. First, as mentioned earlier, HP does some randomization of note-on and -off times, but I haven't looked at a MIDI file to see how much. Wait until I finish writing my final exams!! Unfortunately, making many of these adjustments requires use of Finale's MIDI tool, which AFAIK has not changed one bit since Finale 2.0, with which I started in 1989 or so. As you may know, Finale chops up a quarter note into 1024 parts (EDUs), unlike any other program. If you go into the MIDI tool, there is a randomize function for note starts and ends. Apply a few EDUs of randomization if you think HP doesn't add enough. BUT: 1. You will have to tell HP to look at this MIDI data and incorporate it into HP. 2. You must be VERY alert to repeated pitches and make sure they don't overlap, which can happen frequently. Two same notes, if overlapped, will kill playback of the second note. ALSO: 1. If you want certain parts of a piece swung and others straight, you can always use the APPLY HP plug-in in regions as necessary. 2. If you intend to export MIDI to a DAW, then using the APPLY HP plug-in is a MUST. Normal HP is NOT saved upon export to MIDI, whereas anything coming from the plug-in IS saved. 3. If your sections are behaving oddly, make sure that they do not consist of 16ths. If you want swung 16ths, make sure to make the time signature 8/8 but make it display as 4/4. 4. The random movement of faders you noticed is a function of HP, and evidently occurs at times even if no particular instruction is on the score. 5. HP seems to use BOTH volume AND velocity to create dynamics. I question that procedure. 6. It takes some experimentation to find the right level of base channel volume for a given instrument because every ensemble is unique and necessary base volume level is a function of the context in which an instrument might appear. Once you find that proper balance, set it in the Score Manager and use dynamics in Finale for the rest. 7. HP is not necessarily as smart as we'd like it to be in all occasions, so it is frequently necessary to mark up a score very heavily to achieve your desired results...and in some cases, HP seems to impose its intelligence in a questionable manner and/or at questionable times. 8. The arcane nature of the MIDI tool impedes/prevents a lot of expressivity that Finale could achieve had any attention been paid to that tool since 1989. IMHO it is the most user-unfriendly part of Finale since the TCD Watershed Bit setting disappeared. ;-0 Given that the code seems to be undergoing a major update/rewrite, perhaps now's the time to really advocate for an improvement in the MIDI tool. 9. Having said all the above, it's still unclear to me whether putting up with HP is better or worse than putting up with real trumpet players. ;-) Jim James C. Williams, MBA, CFP E. B. Lacy Professor of Business Franklin College Euphonium Player Around several Towns From: Craig Parmerlee [cr...@acticalc.com] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 11:20 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Cc: Williams, Jim Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan band library - Avoiding simultaneous attacks On 4/24/2013 9:09 AM, Williams, Jim wrote: 5.it is imperative to avoid simultaneous attacks. HP does that to some extent, but I haven't taken the time to determine how much. How do you do that? Is that the setting in HP preferences - Tempo variations called Don't randomize (exact timing)? I find that I must keep that box checked on anything that isn't a swing tune because even when I have swing values set to zero, HP still plays SOME of the voices swingy. This ruins any Latin tune. I find this uncontrollable urge while sitting at my computer to look back over my shoulder and shout at the trumpets Straight eights, dammit!!. Fortunately the Garritan trumpet section isn't able to retaliate by screeching right into my ears -- at least they haven't so far. So you see, that is clear evidence that HP isn't like real trumpet players. :) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Garritan band library
Bought the Garritan Personal Orchestra some months ago. The better depth and more richness in details compared to the fewer sound samples coming with FM2012 have pleased me and been helpful in my work. Now I wanted to do a brass band version of a recent project, where it would have been of benefit to work with cornet sounds over the GPO trumpets. Also to have access to the alto/tenor horn sounds over the orchestral horn sounds. Same for a greater variety of baritone, euphonium, and tuba sounds. So I listened to the sound samples on the makemusic site. And I was deeply disappointed by the artificial, glassy, orchestrion quality of the soundscape. Do I have a wose than usual ear-day, or have others had similar experiences? Is the band library being in version 2 over the GPO being in version 4 a hint that the band library is kind of outdated? Klaus ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan band library
I can't speak to matters of taste, but i can say that there are a great many MORE brass samples in Garritan Band than in GPO. Euphs vs. baritones, etc. I find for brass band work it is quite helpful. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote: Bought the Garritan Personal Orchestra some months ago. The better depth and more richness in details compared to the fewer sound samples coming with FM2012 have pleased me and been helpful in my work. Now I wanted to do a brass band version of a recent project, where it would have been of benefit to work with cornet sounds over the GPO trumpets. Also to have access to the alto/tenor horn sounds over the orchestral horn sounds. Same for a greater variety of baritone, euphonium, and tuba sounds. So I listened to the sound samples on the makemusic site. And I was deeply disappointed by the artificial, glassy, orchestrion quality of the soundscape. Do I have a wose than usual ear-day, or have others had similar experiences? Is the band library being in version 2 over the GPO being in version 4 a hint that the band library is kind of outdated? Klaus ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan band library
I certainly agree about the desirability of having the more varied selection of band specific brass sounds. The problems I perceived were with the upper overtones sounding shallow with the band sound samples But then I might use the orchestral woodwind sounds where I find them preferable. I like the clarinet sounds of the GPO. Thanks! Klaus --- On Wed, 4/24/13, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com wrote: From: Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan band library To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Wednesday, April 24, 2013, 2:25 PM I can't speak to matters of taste, but i can say that there are a great many MORE brass samples in Garritan Band than in GPO. Euphs vs. baritones, etc. I find for brass band work it is quite helpful. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote: Bought the Garritan Personal Orchestra some months ago. The better depth and more richness in details compared to the fewer sound samples coming with FM2012 have pleased me and been helpful in my work. Now I wanted to do a brass band version of a recent project, where it would have been of benefit to work with cornet sounds over the GPO trumpets. Also to have access to the alto/tenor horn sounds over the orchestral horn sounds. Same for a greater variety of baritone, euphonium, and tuba sounds. So I listened to the sound samples on the makemusic site. And I was deeply disappointed by the artificial, glassy, orchestrion quality of the soundscape. Do I have a wose than usual ear-day, or have others had similar experiences? Is the band library being in version 2 over the GPO being in version 4 a hint that the band library is kind of outdated? Klaus ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan band library
There are a few points I might raise here: 1. Brasses are difficult to sample due to the complex overtones. 2. Homogeneous ensembles such as brass bands create problems as well. 3. The overtone situation Klaus describes can be adjusted via EQ. Go into the ARIA player and cut or boost frequencies to taste. 4. I find the base velocity in Finale's HP to be too low, yielding mushy attacks for brasses. Try increasing the base velocity to taste. 5.it is imperative to avoid simultaneous attacks. HP does that to some extent, but I haven't taken the time to determine how much. 6. Use reverb judiciously, avoiding extremes of wet and dry. 7.try panning similar tone colors on opposite sides of the stereo field if musically logical 8. Try automating reverb or EQ as a function of an instrument's dynamics or prominence 9. All the above would be MUCH easier if Finale's MIDI tool were easier to use. Right now it's a pain. 10. Don't expect anything just using the sounds out of the box 11. Not even the $5K libraries will do a great job of reproducing a brass band. Jim Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos. On Apr 24, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote: I certainly agree about the desirability of having the more varied selection of band specific brass sounds. The problems I perceived were with the upper overtones sounding shallow with the band sound samples But then I might use the orchestral woodwind sounds where I find them preferable. I like the clarinet sounds of the GPO. Thanks! Klaus --- On Wed, 4/24/13, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com wrote: From: Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan band library To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Wednesday, April 24, 2013, 2:25 PM I can't speak to matters of taste, but i can say that there are a great many MORE brass samples in Garritan Band than in GPO. Euphs vs. baritones, etc. I find for brass band work it is quite helpful. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote: Bought the Garritan Personal Orchestra some months ago. The better depth and more richness in details compared to the fewer sound samples coming with FM2012 have pleased me and been helpful in my work. Now I wanted to do a brass band version of a recent project, where it would have been of benefit to work with cornet sounds over the GPO trumpets. Also to have access to the alto/tenor horn sounds over the orchestral horn sounds. Same for a greater variety of baritone, euphonium, and tuba sounds. So I listened to the sound samples on the makemusic site. And I was deeply disappointed by the artificial, glassy, orchestrion quality of the soundscape. Do I have a wose than usual ear-day, or have others had similar experiences? Is the band library being in version 2 over the GPO being in version 4 a hint that the band library is kind of outdated? Klaus ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan band library
Thanks! One bad point about the sound samples at the MM site is that there is no brass band sample. I took the jump anyway and bought the band library. Even has it installed and sounds applied to the score sketch I am working at. First play back of the opening revealed a marked difference by using cornet versus trumpet sounds. I am aware I have to work with the parameters re. equalizing, panning, and balance. Klaus From: Williams, Jim jwilli...@franklincollege.edu To: finale@shsu.edu finale@shsu.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan band library There are a few points I might raise here: 1. Brasses are difficult to sample due to the complex overtones. 2. Homogeneous ensembles such as brass bands create problems as well. 3. The overtone situation Klaus describes can be adjusted via EQ. Go into the ARIA player and cut or boost frequencies to taste. 4. I find the base velocity in Finale's HP to be too low, yielding mushy attacks for brasses. Try increasing the base velocity to taste. 5.it is imperative to avoid simultaneous attacks. HP does that to some extent, but I haven't taken the time to determine how much. 6. Use reverb judiciously, avoiding extremes of wet and dry. 7.try panning similar tone colors on opposite sides of the stereo field if musically logical 8. Try automating reverb or EQ as a function of an instrument's dynamics or prominence 9. All the above would be MUCH easier if Finale's MIDI tool were easier to use. Right now it's a pain. 10. Don't expect anything just using the sounds out of the box 11. Not even the $5K libraries will do a great job of reproducing a brass band. Jim Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos. On Apr 24, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote: I certainly agree about the desirability of having the more varied selection of band specific brass sounds. The problems I perceived were with the upper overtones sounding shallow with the band sound samples But then I might use the orchestral woodwind sounds where I find them preferable. I like the clarinet sounds of the GPO. Thanks! Klaus --- On Wed, 4/24/13, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com wrote: From: Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan band library To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Wednesday, April 24, 2013, 2:25 PM I can't speak to matters of taste, but i can say that there are a great many MORE brass samples in Garritan Band than in GPO. Euphs vs. baritones, etc. I find for brass band work it is quite helpful. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote: Bought the Garritan Personal Orchestra some months ago. The better depth and more richness in details compared to the fewer sound samples coming with FM2012 have pleased me and been helpful in my work. Now I wanted to do a brass band version of a recent project, where it would have been of benefit to work with cornet sounds over the GPO trumpets. Also to have access to the alto/tenor horn sounds over the orchestral horn sounds. Same for a greater variety of baritone, euphonium, and tuba sounds. So I listened to the sound samples on the makemusic site. And I was deeply disappointed by the artificial, glassy, orchestrion quality of the soundscape. Do I have a wose than usual ear-day, or have others had similar experiences? Is the band library being in version 2 over the GPO being in version 4 a hint that the band library is kind of outdated? Klaus ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
