Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Is this what you want? Haroldo On Feb 26, 2019, at 10:21, Barbara Touburg wrote: > Key signature 3 flats. > At the end od the system, I need to show a "new" key signature of 4 flats. > At the beginning of the next system, I need to *only* show 3 sharps, without > cancelling the previous 4 flats. > How do I achieve this? > Thanks! > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Document Options>Key Signatures>cancel outgoing key signature UNchecked. Christopher > On Feb 26, 2019, at 8:21 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: > > Key signature 3 flats. > At the end od the system, I need to show a "new" key signature of 4 flats. > At the beginning of the next system, I need to *only* show 3 sharps, without > cancelling the previous 4 flats. > How do I achieve this? > Thanks! > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
[Finale] Key signature question
Key signature 3 flats. At the end od the system, I need to show a "new" key signature of 4 flats. At the beginning of the next system, I need to *only* show 3 sharps, without cancelling the previous 4 flats. How do I achieve this? Thanks! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
At 8:22 PM -0400 5/24/07, Darcy James Argue wrote: Personally, I think that's terrible practice. There is a key change before a quarter-note pickup? Use an accidental, fercrissakes, and change the key sig at the beginning of the next bar. I would certainly agree (not necessarily in precisely the same words!). Do remember that you are supposed to be the notation expert, and are expected to advise on best practices no matter what your client hands you. And these picky details are something I find I have to correct in many student arrangements, simply because nobody has ever told them how to lay out pages for the easiest reading, and they haven't picked it up on their own. In fact, now that I think about it I think I'll add a module to the introduction of my Choral Arranging class that goes over exactly this kind of thing. My own habits were set long ago, but I want to make sure my students understand the necessity of making something LOOK like it SOUNDS! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
John Howell wrote: At 8:22 PM -0400 5/24/07, Darcy James Argue wrote: Personally, I think that's terrible practice. There is a key change before a quarter-note pickup? Use an accidental, fercrissakes, and change the key sig at the beginning of the next bar. I would certainly agree (not necessarily in precisely the same words!). Do remember that you are supposed to be the notation expert, and are expected to advise on best practices no matter what your client hands you. And these picky details are something I find I have to correct in many student arrangements, simply because nobody has ever told them how to lay out pages for the easiest reading, and they haven't picked it up on their own. It always amazes me that people who have obviously performed a lot of music and have spent enough hours at it above the average, enough to be able to pass an audition to get into college music departments, and who care enough to want to pursue further study of music are completely unaware of the finer points of the music they have spent so many hours staring at. Things like the fact that time signatures aren't at the start of each staff on the page, but clef signs are, or the sequence in which sharps and flats are placed in the key signature. I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their instruments than I am at mine. I definitely think a Notation and How To Get It On Paper Properly module for any/every music theory, harmony, arranging, composing course should be mandatory. Or simply have a 1-credit course for all music majors, a 1-hour, once a week for a semester class on notation, including all the basic clefs, and all done *by hand* without computers, so that people end up with at least legible manuscript which follows what are the accepted conventions of notation, and can use their brains to ensure that their notation software is doing things properly and if not, they can change it (one would hope.) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Key signature question
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dhbailey Sent: 24 May 2007 23:52 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Key signature question John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is yes, how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head with a lead anacrusis or anything. Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be reading the music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't like it. Yep. I gave Mussorgsky a piece of my mind the other week. ;) In other words, there's a good example of bad practice in the Khovanshchina prelude. A change occurs halfway through a bar, I think from 6 sharps to 6 flats. Not only does it make it look like two separate bars, with the guarantee that a first play-through will fall apart there, the violins also play a C sharp on the first beat and leap to a top D flat after the key change. Every part I've seen whenever I've played it has C SHARP scrawled over that second note. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Key signature question
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dhbailey Sent: 25 May 2007 10:25 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Key signature question I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their instruments than I am at mine. I think there's a few kindred spirits on this list! My pupils now are the victims of this and of what you've describe. They don't get the choice of glossing over everything prior to the first note when they look at a new piece... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
At 5:25 AM -0400 5/25/07, dhbailey wrote: It always amazes me that people who have obviously performed a lot of music and have spent enough hours at it above the average, enough to be able to pass an audition to get into college music departments, and who care enough to want to pursue further study of music are completely unaware of the finer points of the music they have spent so many hours staring at. Things like the fact that time signatures aren't at the start of each staff on the page, but clef signs are, or the sequence in which sharps and flats are placed in the key signature. Or the fact that key signatures ARE required on every line. Seems like most of the old timers who copied Broadway show books missed that day in theory class, with the result that the key signature might change 4 times on a given page but there's nothing at the beginning of the lines to remind you where you are. Which means we have to write them in, despite the stern warnings not to fold, spindle or mutilate! I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their instruments than I am at mine. Yeah, I never studied it, either. I just learned it along the way. (Along with my mom getting after me when I didn't spell the chords properly, but tried to make the individual parts easier to read!) I definitely think a Notation and How To Get It On Paper Properly module for any/every music theory, harmony, arranging, composing course should be mandatory. Susie was a composition major at Indiana, and they did have to take a notation class (long before computers!!), but the average music major didn't. Or simply have a 1-credit course for all music majors, a 1-hour, once a week for a semester class on notation, including all the basic clefs, Depends on what you include in basic, all nine or just the usual four? and all done *by hand* without computers, so that people end up with at least legible manuscript which follows what are the accepted conventions of notation, Yes and no. I think it's also important that they learn to get the most out of their notation programs, as well. I split the difference, asking for drafts in manuscript but final versions engraved. But I do warn them that when they have a deadline and the electricity goes off, they still have that deadline!! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dhbailey Sent: 25 May 2007 10:25 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Key signature question I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their instruments than I am at mine. I think there's a few kindred spirits on this list! My pupils now are the victims of this and of what you've describe. They don't get the choice of glossing over everything prior to the first note when they look at a new piece... My students, when I ask them to play a certain exercise or song from their lesson book, are in for a ragging if they get the key signature or the meter wrong. But I don't just say You forgot to check the key signature. I'll say something like I asked you to play exercise number 5. But I am. No, you 're not playing the exercise number 5 I asked you to play. Yes I am. Point to it. They do so. Now point to the start of the exercise number 5 you're trying to play. They invariably point to the first note. Well, you see, the exercise number 5 that I'm asking you to play starts with a clef sign. Then what do you see? The key signature. oops. What comes next? The meter. And THEN comes the first note. You weren't playing exercise number 5 because you were playing in the wrong key. Publishers don't pay engravers the large amounts of money that engravers got when that book was published to waste their time engraving useless symbols -- it's all important and you need to pay attention to it. They remember that pretty fast. After that, when there's a similar incident I only need to remind them to start at the beginning of the exercise. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Key signature question
I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their instruments than I am at mine. I think there's a few kindred spirits on this list! My pupils now are the victims of this and of what you've describe. They don't get the choice of glossing over everything prior to the first note when they look at a new piece... My students, when I ask them to play a certain exercise or song from their lesson book, are in for a ragging if they get the key signature or the meter wrong. But I don't just say You forgot to check the key signature. I'll say something like I asked you to play exercise number 5. [snip] Mine get a not-dissimilar treatment, particularly in ensemble situations and especially when teaching them the skills needed for sightreading. I like them to be able to talk me through the whole thought process, in real time, in the moments between being presented with a piece and playing it through. With tonality, metre and rhythm necessarily being the overwhelming priority. In ensembles, I try to show those on treble instruments how to use their part to anticipate harmonic and cadential structures before playing them. And so on. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Key signature question
Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is yes, how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Thanks, John Roberts ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is yes, how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head with a lead anacrusis or anything. Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be reading the music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't like it. My first question is Why? If there's any way to avoid it, my advice would be to do so. Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the first of the two resulting measures hidden. In Fin2007, you can set the measure attribute for the second measure so that it isn't calculated in the measure numbers. In earlier versions you have to monkey around with defining additional regions to handle the measure number hassles that result from such division of current measures. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Thanks for the reply. As to the why, that's the way it is in the guitar manuscript I'm typesetting, no double barlines, and several successive key changes for 4-bar phrases, with the key change before a quarter-note length pickup. John On 5/24/07 6:52 PM, dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is yes, how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head with a lead anacrusis or anything. Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be reading the music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't like it. My first question is Why? If there's any way to avoid it, my advice would be to do so. Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the first of the two resulting measures hidden. In Fin2007, you can set the measure attribute for the second measure so that it isn't calculated in the measure numbers. In earlier versions you have to monkey around with defining additional regions to handle the measure number hassles that result from such division of current measures. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
At 06:52 PM 5/24/2007, dhbailey wrote: Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the first of the two resulting measures hidden. I would say it should be a dashed barline rather than hidden. That's how I'm used to seeing it. Otherwise, the new key sig will just look like a bunch of accidentals, not a key sig. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Personally, I think that's terrible practice. There is a key change before a quarter-note pickup? Use an accidental, fercrissakes, and change the key sig at the beginning of the next bar. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 24 May 2007, at 7:50 PM, John Roberts wrote: Thanks for the reply. As to the why, that's the way it is in the guitar manuscript I'm typesetting, no double barlines, and several successive key changes for 4-bar phrases, with the key change before a quarter- note length pickup. John On 5/24/07 6:52 PM, dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is yes, how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head with a lead anacrusis or anything. Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be reading the music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't like it. My first question is Why? If there's any way to avoid it, my advice would be to do so. Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the first of the two resulting measures hidden. In Fin2007, you can set the measure attribute for the second measure so that it isn't calculated in the measure numbers. In earlier versions you have to monkey around with defining additional regions to handle the measure number hassles that result from such division of current measures. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
On May 24, 2007, at 5:31 PM, John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? For the past 50 years, you can do absolutely anything you like with notation. Whether a given notation is advisable is another matter. And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? No. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
My feelings exactly, Darcy. And what I'm planning on doing (probably without double barlines :-). Thanks for all the replies. John On 5/24/07 8:22 PM, Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I think that's terrible practice. There is a key change before a quarter-note pickup? Use an accidental, fercrissakes, and change the key sig at the beginning of the next bar. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 24 May 2007, at 7:50 PM, John Roberts wrote: Thanks for the reply. As to the why, that's the way it is in the guitar manuscript I'm typesetting, no double barlines, and several successive key changes for 4-bar phrases, with the key change before a quarter- note length pickup. John On 5/24/07 6:52 PM, dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is yes, how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head with a lead anacrusis or anything. Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be reading the music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't like it. My first question is Why? If there's any way to avoid it, my advice would be to do so. Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the first of the two resulting measures hidden. In Fin2007, you can set the measure attribute for the second measure so that it isn't calculated in the measure numbers. In earlier versions you have to monkey around with defining additional regions to handle the measure number hassles that result from such division of current measures. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Agreeing with Owain, I'm going to have to say that it looks like a development section, where the tonal centre isn't going to be around long enough to warrant a modulation. Schoenberg has *ideas* about that sort of thing. But, without any knowledge of the context, I'm going to go with, it looks like mostly pedal point passages used to refer to previous melodic ideas, and to establish modulatory centres before *arriving* at a place where a new key signature might actually be useful. On 12.11.2004 14:19 Uhr, Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aside from deliberately trying to make things difficult for note entry and sight-reading, why would anyone notate the following passage this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek1.jpg instead of this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek2.jpg ? (The whole piece is only three pages and stays in the same harmonic neighborhood throughout.) [from Leos Janacek, 'Po zarostlem chodnicku'] Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Key signature question
Aside from deliberately trying to make things difficult for note entry and sight-reading, why would anyone notate the following passage this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek1.jpg instead of this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek2.jpg ? (The whole piece is only three pages and stays in the same harmonic neighborhood throughout.) [from Leos Janacek, 'Po zarostlem chodnicku'] Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
On Nov 12, 2004, at 5:19 PM, Richard Yates wrote: Aside from deliberately trying to make things difficult for note entry and sight-reading, why would anyone notate the following passage this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek1.jpg instead of this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek2.jpg ? (The whole piece is only three pages and stays in the same harmonic neighborhood throughout.) [from Leos Janacek, 'Po zarostlem chodnicku'] Richard Yates You've got me. I would put the whole thing in Db, in fact, assuming there is no compelling reason to keep it in C# (like keeping the modulation sequence understandable if there are frequent modulations.) This is the kind of thing I always have problems understanding, and I'm considered a little way-out at times in my circles (in terms of rarely-seen notation and effects.) Anyone else care to clue us in? I don't get it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Richard Yates wrote: Aside from deliberately trying to make things difficult for note entry and sight-reading, why would anyone notate the following passage this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek1.jpg instead of this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek2.jpg ? (The whole piece is only three pages and stays in the same harmonic neighborhood throughout.) [from Leos Janacek, 'Po zarostlem chodnicku'] Richard Yates Two explanations. Firstly, they missed the point of clarity in musical notation. However, there's a potential alternative, that there is a harmonic relation to other movements / pieces / etc. A knowledge of the piece might make me irrelevant... ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
