Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Oct 2005 at 20:58, Darcy James Argue wrote: If you need to manually remove system locks, you can do that in the Mass Edit tool, by pressing cmd-A (or on Windows, ctrl-A) for Select All, and then cmd-U (or, I think, ctrl-U on Windows) to unlock all systems. Then you can manually lock only the systems you need locked. On Windows, unlocking systems is U by itself, whereas Ctrl-U is the Update Layout command. Then there's ctrl-shift-u which not only updates the layout but it also unlocks all systems and can totally ruin carefully worked out sections if used haphazardly. I try not to actually lock systems until I'm nearing the end of the layout, where I'm working out page turns and don't want the systems to be unlocked again. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On 23.10.2005 Chuck Israels wrote: I find no disadvantage to having Automatic Update Layout and Automatic Spacing turned on all the time. Perhaps some others may be able to describe circumstances in which it is better to have them off, but I have yet to run into any. I always have automatic update layout on and see no disadvantages at all, since you will have to update the layout eventually, anyway. Otherwise, if you save and quit Finale, then reopen your file you may find it doesn't look the same anymore, and also occasionally measures get lost if you don't update the layout. (The only disadvantage I can see is that it may take more time on a slow machine working on large files with many pages, but I never noticed that as a problem). Automatic music spacing is a different matter. I always have it off, as I don't want it to destroy manually spaced notes accidentally. This will happen, if for instance you have multiple layers with multiple accidentals where quite often automatic spacing is insufficient. I often have to give extra space using TGTools, or manually move one note in a measure in more than 2 layers. With automatic music spacing (which kicks in when you leave a measure in speedy) such work is easily lost. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On 22 Oct 2005 at 20:58, Darcy James Argue wrote: If you need to manually remove system locks, you can do that in the Mass Edit tool, by pressing cmd-A (or on Windows, ctrl-A) for Select All, and then cmd-U (or, I think, ctrl-U on Windows) to unlock all systems. Then you can manually lock only the systems you need locked. On Windows, unlocking systems is U by itself, whereas Ctrl-U is the Update Layout command. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On Oct 22, 2005, at 6:32 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Nothing needs to bounces around with Automatic Update Layout on, so long as you choose the appropriate Update Layout settings for your work (like, for instance, Reflow only within systems). The advantage to leaving Update Layout on is that you are never caught looking at measure widths in Page View that are not the real measure widths because you haven't updated the layout yet, and you never inadvertently print a part with an entire system missing. I still don't really see any disadvantage, unless you have a very slow computer. It could be that I'm blurring Automatic Update Layout and Automatic Music Spacing in my mind. AMS definitely bounces stuff around. Perhaps the only real advantage for me to leaving AUL off is that I'm used to it that way and I'm an old curmudgeon who likes things to stay the same -- which was my primary point in the other post, anyway. I've never suffered from any of the problems the rest of you describe -- checking and updating layout is so much a part of my process that I can't imagine accidentally printing a part with the measure spaced wrong, much less losing a system -- so I see no reason to start using AUL. I agree that having Automatic Update Layout set by default makes perfect sense, but I'm going to gripe if someone deprives me of my option to turn it off. (And ditto for Automatic Music Spacing, Smart Word Extensions, etc.) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
bill wrote: Hi gang, Chuck got it right concerning Update Layout (command-\ on a Mac). Being a casual lurker, I must admit that this forum is the best I've seen, and those who read the postings here are being given first class advice for free. Bravo! However, after listening to you all, I am even more leery of 2k6. I'm still on 2k5 and the Update Layout issue should not be an issue since it was never a problem since Fin 98 (ish) up until recently. This is only one of many that MM doesn't seem to want to fix or even recognize. It makes me wonder who does their beta-testing. I am wondering of this group here might band together and lobby to have MM spend the paltry 1% of their development resources to get it right for us and be done with it. Or, possibly, encourage them to release a Finale Pro version without the stupid garbage they've concentrated on in the past few versions. I'm getting really frustrated with MM, as I'm sure most of you are too. Would it make any sense to compile a master wish list and present it to MM as a group? Sorry to vent... MM's main focus is to keep on building their market, which means new customers as well as keeping continuing customers. They make far more on new sales than upgrades, since we all get the same product but the new users pay a lot more for it. And that means adding more headline-worthy bells and whistles. Everybody was so ga-ga over the GPO and how it is integrated into Finale that I think a lot of beta-testers must have concentrated on that aspect of the program and failed to put it through the normally rigorous testing. The developers know what's wrong with the program, what bugs are longstanding, which annoyances have been there for years, but they don't drive what happens with the program. And this upgrade every year at the same time schedule is wreaking havoc with the developers' ability to tackle long-standing bugs, since the new features have to at least appear to work (has anybody gotten micnotator to work for anything more than simple melodies?) so the marketing department can push them at trade shows and out in the trenches and in advertising. Many of us who have been using the program for a long time (I've been using it for around 12 years) have sent in lots of bug-fix requests, lots of improvement suggestions, and only some of them have gotten any attention. One thing to keep in mind, and this has become obvious every recent release -- new code sometimes makes old bugs which have been successfully squashed raise their ugly heads again and need to be beaten down again in an interim update patch. Which is long overdue now, and will still probably not resolve all these issues. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On 21 Oct 2005 at 22:40, bill wrote: On Oct 21, 2005, at 7:52 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Oct 2005 at 18:09, bill wrote: I'm still on 2k5 and the Update Layout issue should not be an issue since it was never a problem since Fin 98 (ish) up until recently. This is only one of many that MM doesn't seem to want to fix or even recognize. I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying that updating the layout *doesn't* update it? Or that it isn't updating it properly? Or simply that you believe you shouldn't have to tell Finale to update the layout (which you don't, if you turn on automatic layout update)? What exactly is the issue that MakeMusic has not fixed? I don't see one here -- all I see is a program design issue that trips up some people for about 5 minutes until they realize that they have to do something to get the layout updated. I feel really stupid: My Automatic Update in 2k5 upgrade was unchecked after many years of assuming that upgrading to the next invaluable version of Finale would preserve previous and relevant settings. I would agree that an upgrade should not change settings that exist in both the older and newer versions. However, I *do* have major problems with the direction that MM is going, and I feel that you are ignoring and dismissing my sentiments with that. Even though I was incorrect in my last assertion, the issue with layout update should *never* occur, and that option should never be available, given the results rendered without it. Well, I definitely disagree with that. I certainly think, as I just said, that it's a bug (or a poorly designed feature) that changes settings when you upgrade over top of an existing installation, but I would *not* want to use a Finale that lacked the ability to turn off automatic layout update -- I much prefer to do that myself, and it has never been an issue for me in any version of Finale since the very early ones (I started with Finale 2.01 in 1991). -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On 10/21/05 10:24 PM, Noel Stoutenburg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brennon Bortz wrote: After opening a new default document and entering notes in Speedy Entry in Scroll View, I switch to Page View and suddenly notes have veered off the edges of the page on nearly every staff. Applying any time of music spacing only worsens the problem? Redrawing the screen doesn't fix the problem either. Staff optimization does. Is optimization the ONLY way to correct this? Sounds like what I had early on, too. Turned out my problem was too many measures per system. There are a couple ways to solve the problem. One way is to select page view (if you're not already in that view mode), then select the mass mover tool, click on the first measure of one system, and the first measure of the next system, and respace. Another way, also in page view, with the mass mover tool selected, is to click on a measure in the middle of the sytem while and press the down arrow key. You might check too, that the reflow measures across systems is enabled. Finally, in page view, select the measure tool, select the measures as described earlier in this paragraph, and in the measure tool either set the measure width to a smaller value, or subtract some quantity form the width of each measure. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Well, I'm going to have to pick myself up off the floor and rewrite some material to replicate this problem. In the meantime, I can tell you that Reflow Measures Across Systems (Maintain System Locks) is selected, but Automatic Update Layout is not. All the emails I've read have me thoroughly confused...should this be checked or not? What are the disadvantages, if any, of checking this? Thanks again, Brennon -- B. Christopher Bortz Graduate Student, Music Composition University of California, Riverside [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
Brennon, You'll figure this out pretty quickly. You might want to turn off Maintain System Locks unless you have already done some page layout work that you don't want to lose. In my case, I save this part of my work until I have the whole piece done in scroll view. (That's just the way I do things, and you may want to work differently, but my way of experiencing music makes scroll view a natural way to visualize music.) I find no advantage in setting up system locks until I am working in page view to set up the final look of the score (or parts). Sometimes, when setting up a coda section, for instance, you may want to go in to the Measure Attributes dialog and select begin a new staff system. This can be done in scroll view and will behave predictably when you switch to page view. I find no disadvantage to having Automatic Update Layout and Automatic Spacing turned on all the time. Perhaps some others may be able to describe circumstances in which it is better to have them off, but I have yet to run into any. Chuck On Oct 22, 2005, at 4:17 PM, Brennon Bortz wrote: On 10/21/05 10:24 PM, Noel Stoutenburg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brennon Bortz wrote: After opening a new default document and entering notes in Speedy Entry in Scroll View, I switch to Page View and suddenly notes have veered off the edges of the page on nearly every staff. Applying any time of music spacing only worsens the problem? Redrawing the screen doesn't fix the problem either. Staff optimization does. Is optimization the ONLY way to correct this? Sounds like what I had early on, too. Turned out my problem was too many measures per system. There are a couple ways to solve the problem. One way is to select page view (if you're not already in that view mode), then select the mass mover tool, click on the first measure of one system, and the first measure of the next system, and respace. Another way, also in page view, with the mass mover tool selected, is to click on a measure in the middle of the sytem while and press the down arrow key. You might check too, that the reflow measures across systems is enabled. Finally, in page view, select the measure tool, select the measures as described earlier in this paragraph, and in the measure tool either set the measure width to a smaller value, or subtract some quantity form the width of each measure. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Well, I'm going to have to pick myself up off the floor and rewrite some material to replicate this problem. In the meantime, I can tell you that Reflow Measures Across Systems (Maintain System Locks) is selected, but Automatic Update Layout is not. All the emails I've read have me thoroughly confused...should this be checked or not? What are the disadvantages, if any, of checking this? Thanks again, Brennon -- B. Christopher Bortz Graduate Student, Music Composition University of California, Riverside [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On 22 Oct 2005, at 7:17 PM, Brennon Bortz wrote: In the meantime, I can tell you that Reflow Measures Across Systems (Maintain System Locks) is selected, but Automatic Update Layout is not. All the emails I've read have me thoroughly confused...should this be checked or not? Checked. What are the disadvantages, if any, of checking this? If you have a very slow computer, Finale may become slightly more sluggish. But it's really not an issue on any computer with a 1 GHz processor or faster. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://homepage.mac.com/djargon Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
Brennon Bortz wrote: In the meantime, I can tell you that Reflow Measures Across Systems (Maintain System Locks) is selected, OK. Check to see if there is an option for reflow measures across systems, (remove system locks):, and try that instead. Truth to tell, at first I though that it seemed oxymoronic to reflow across systems and maintain locks, but then I realized that is possible to lock only some systems, and not others. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On Oct 22, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: What are the disadvantages, if any, of checking this? If you have a very slow computer, Finale may become slightly more sluggish. But it's really not an issue on any computer with a 1 GHz processor or faster. It's not only about speed. Some of us simply prefer to have things hold still when we're working on them and not bounce themselves around until we ask them, too. You can call us old-fashioned, or control freaks, or whatever, but it's how we prefer to work. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
Hi Mark, Nothing needs to bounces around with Automatic Update Layout on, so long as you choose the appropriate Update Layout settings for your work (like, for instance, Reflow only within systems). The advantage to leaving Update Layout on is that you are never caught looking at measure widths in Page View that are not the real measure widths because you haven't updated the layout yet, and you never inadvertently print a part with an entire system missing. I still don't really see any disadvantage, unless you have a very slow computer. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://homepage.mac.com/djargon Brooklyn, NY On 22 Oct 2005, at 9:20 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: On Oct 22, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: What are the disadvantages, if any, of checking this? If you have a very slow computer, Finale may become slightly more sluggish. But it's really not an issue on any computer with a 1 GHz processor or faster. It's not only about speed. Some of us simply prefer to have things hold still when we're working on them and not bounce themselves around until we ask them, too. You can call us old-fashioned, or control freaks, or whatever, but it's how we prefer to work. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
After opening a new default document and entering notes in Speedy Entry in Scroll View, I switch to Page View and suddenly notes have veered off the edges of the page on nearly every staff. Applying any time of music spacing only worsens the problem? Redrawing the screen doesn't fix the problem either. Staff optimization does. Is optimization the ONLY way to correct this? Thanks, Brennon Bortz -- Brennon Bortz [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
Is this an update layout problem? Try going to the edit menu and choosing Update Layout, and see if that cures the problem. If you like, you can select Automatic Update Layout further down in the edit menu, and Finale will take care of this in the background. I have found no disadvantage to this in my work, though some others prefer to do this only when they want it to happen. Hope this helps. Chuck On Oct 21, 2005, at 4:49 PM, Brennon Bortz wrote: After opening a new default document and entering notes in Speedy Entry in Scroll View, I switch to Page View and suddenly notes have veered off the edges of the page on nearly every staff. Applying any time of music spacing only worsens the problem? Redrawing the screen doesn't fix the problem either. Staff optimization does. Is optimization the ONLY way to correct this? Thanks, Brennon Bortz -- Brennon Bortz [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On 21/10/05, Brennon Bortz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After opening a new default document and entering notes in Speedy Entry in Scroll View, I switch to Page View and suddenly notes have veered off the edges of the page on nearly every staff. Applying any time of music spacing only worsens the problem? Redrawing the screen doesn't fix the problem either. Staff optimization does. Is optimization the ONLY way to correct this? No... when you change music spacing, the next thing to do is always to update the layout (cmd-\ on Mac, ctrl-u on Win). If you turn on Automatic Update Layout, manually updating won't be necessary as often (but it's a good idea to do this fairly frequently when you're working in Scroll View). Also, remember that updating the layout only affects the the pages from the one you're currently viewing through the end of the piece. Make sure to update layout while viewing Page 1 before printing the file. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
Hi gang, Chuck got it right concerning Update Layout (command-\ on a Mac). Being a casual lurker, I must admit that this forum is the best I've seen, and those who read the postings here are being given first class advice for free. Bravo! However, after listening to you all, I am even more leery of 2k6. I'm still on 2k5 and the Update Layout issue should not be an issue since it was never a problem since Fin 98 (ish) up until recently. This is only one of many that MM doesn't seem to want to fix or even recognize. It makes me wonder who does their beta-testing. I am wondering of this group here might band together and lobby to have MM spend the paltry 1% of their development resources to get it right for us and be done with it. Or, possibly, encourage them to release a Finale Pro version without the stupid garbage they've concentrated on in the past few versions. I'm getting really frustrated with MM, as I'm sure most of you are too. Would it make any sense to compile a master wish list and present it to MM as a group? Sorry to vent... Bill Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.gwmp.com On Oct 21, 2005, at 4:49 PM, Brennon Bortz wrote: After opening a new default document and entering notes in Speedy Entry in Scroll View, I switch to Page View and suddenly notes have veered off the edges of the page on nearly every staff. Applying any time of music spacing only worsens the problem? Redrawing the screen doesn't fix the problem either. Staff optimization does. Is optimization the ONLY way to correct this? Thanks, Brennon Bortz -- Brennon Bortz [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On 21 Oct 2005 at 18:09, bill wrote: I'm still on 2k5 and the Update Layout issue should not be an issue since it was never a problem since Fin 98 (ish) up until recently. This is only one of many that MM doesn't seem to want to fix or even recognize. I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying that updating the layout *doesn't* update it? Or that it isn't updating it properly? Or simply that you believe you shouldn't have to tell Finale to update the layout (which you don't, if you turn on automatic layout update)? What exactly is the issue that MakeMusic has not fixed? I don't see one here -- all I see is a program design issue that trips up some people for about 5 minutes until they realize that they have to do something to get the layout updated. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
Brennon Bortz wrote: After opening a new default document and entering notes in Speedy Entry in Scroll View, I switch to Page View and suddenly notes have veered off the edges of the page on nearly every staff. Applying any time of music spacing only worsens the problem? Redrawing the screen doesn't fix the problem either. Staff optimization does. Is optimization the ONLY way to correct this? Sounds like what I had early on, too. Turned out my problem was too many measures per system. There are a couple ways to solve the problem. One way is to select page view (if you're not already in that view mode), then select the mass mover tool, click on the first measure of one system, and the first measure of the next system, and respace. Another way, also in page view, with the mass mover tool selected, is to click on a measure in the middle of the sytem while and press the down arrow key. You might check too, that the reflow measures across systems is enabled. Finally, in page view, select the measure tool, select the measures as described earlier in this paragraph, and in the measure tool either set the measure width to a smaller value, or subtract some quantity form the width of each measure. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notes EVERYWHERE
On Oct 21, 2005, at 7:52 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Oct 2005 at 18:09, bill wrote: I'm still on 2k5 and the Update Layout issue should not be an issue since it was never a problem since Fin 98 (ish) up until recently. This is only one of many that MM doesn't seem to want to fix or even recognize. I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying that updating the layout *doesn't* update it? Or that it isn't updating it properly? Or simply that you believe you shouldn't have to tell Finale to update the layout (which you don't, if you turn on automatic layout update)? What exactly is the issue that MakeMusic has not fixed? I don't see one here -- all I see is a program design issue that trips up some people for about 5 minutes until they realize that they have to do something to get the layout updated. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc I feel really stupid: My Automatic Update in 2k5 upgrade was unchecked after many years of assuming that upgrading to the next invaluable version of Finale would preserve previous and relevant settings. However, I *do* have major problems with the direction that MM is going, and I feel that you are ignoring and dismissing my sentiments with that. Even though I was incorrect in my last assertion, the issue with layout update should *never* occur, and that option should never be available, given the results rendered without it. I am happy to debate you. You decide whether or not you want to debate here in the open or privately, or not at all. That's up to you. I have owned my copy of Finale from the very beginning (very low 3-digit serial # back when putting a staccato on a note took more than 10 menu selections). I can be brainless sometimes, as in this case I admit, but I am not stupid, and I am trying to find some way to coerce MM to spend 10 minutes and fix a long list of problems that they have continued to ignore for years. The most obvious now it the new Text Expression Editor, which looks wonderful on the surface (and should have been done 10 years ago), but their extremely poor concept of dealing with text still remains, and some of the features are lost or poorly done...including baseline shift not behaving in the editor window as it does on the page, and, from what I hear, line spacing not working in 2k6 at all. I am happy to give you my list when I have some time to write it, but I am busy with a ballet which goes on stage in mid-November. The list is very long, and very nit-picky to some, but I don't think it is unreasonable, and easily solvable if MM actually cared about us professionals instead of marketing to music wannabes. Personally, I would be happy to pay $2000 for a music notation program that actually worked and was stable, than to pay $5000 over the course of 10 years for something that is almost OK, and is always slightly better than the competition and doesn't really work very well, and with chronic problems that are never corrected. As far as Update Layout is concerned (it used to be called Recalc Music in the early days), that should have been included as part of updating the preferences with the new version. In the early days, there was no Automatic Update Layout, and I am so used to doing a command-\ every few measures that I didn't think about it at this later stage of Finale's existence. I know that it's a small detail, but our business is made or broken in the details. I welcome your comments, as well as those from anyone else. Bill Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
