Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Personally, I absolutely hate the 8va and 8vb markings (I still see the 8vb quite a bit in piano music). I prefer to space out the score / staves and write it in it's true octave, as my eye's ear hears the pitches in the octave where they're supposed to be, not an octave above it with an 8vb marking on it. -- From: Paul Hayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 1:23 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Ottava bassa I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the Smart Shape Options window.) 1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish? 2. Do you normally use 8va and its dashed bracket line in Smart Shapes, or do you do it all manually with an Expression 8va and then the dashed bracket tool in Smart Shapes? Paul Hayden Magnolia Music Press 6319 Riverbend Blvd. Baton Rouge, LA 70820 Voice Pre-arranged fax: 225-769-9604 www.paulhayden.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
What I do miss with smart shapes in some instances is the ability to use staff lists. On tempo-related items, which I don't put on every line in an orchestral score, any use of a smart shape requires me to choose between a lack of continuity of style in the score and (I'm using 2006, so no linked score and parts) adding items to parts, or a separate parts file, later. Don On 6/20/08 3:01 PM, Christopher Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Smart Shape beginning with 8va is so useful in so many different ways that I would never resort to the old manual way, unless I was forced. In the manual method, the distance between the text and the line will never stay constant, as both are attached to beats, so if the measure changes size you will always have to nudge both items. The newer Smart Shape will always keep a constant alignment, no matter what happens to the measure. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Andrew Stiller wrote: I addressed this in a posting two days ago to which there has been no response whatever. Let me repeat: 8vb had *zero* presence in the classical world until about ten years ago, if that. Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Andrew is usually right, so I went back to my dusty boxes and checked manuscripts from 1967 until I started using Finale in 1993. I never used 8va for transposition down. But my manuscripts had three versions: 8vab (used in just one manuscript); just plain 8 for up or down with a starting hook as well as an ending hook (my most frequent choice); and 8 with an arrow following it to indicate up or down (used in two manuscripts). It appears that 8vb had been so completely logical that it had altered my own memories of what I used. Tip o' the osmiroid again to Andrew. Because I also know that Andrew is almost always right, I checked my old hand-written manuscripts (pre-Finale) and saw that I usually used 8 (or 15) without the letters for octave transpositions up and down. My memory of how I came to use 8vb is still fuzzy, but this is how I think it went down: Finale came out in 1988 and featured the Petrucci font which had 8va and 8vb characters. For proper playback at the time, it was convenient to turn those characters into Expressions that transposed one octave up and down respectively. The difference helped to avoid choosing the wrong one if you might have wanted to use two versions of 8 in the Expressions library. (One octave higher and one lower). When Smart Shapes incorporated the 8va with the dotted extension line, they didn't play back with the transpositions at first, so many people kept doing things the old way. When they eventually added the correct playback, that's when we lobbied the Finale people to add 8vb as an option so that new scores would match what we had been doing in Finale up until that point. I noticed that many of the fonts that came out right after Finale was introduced also included 8vb and 15mb, just like Petrucci (e.g., Crescendo, Grace Notes, Toccata, and Fughetta). The Sonata font had characters for 8ab., 8va and 8vb. Those fonts all date from around 1988 to 1990 and Sonata is from 1986!, before Finale was introduced. It might have been computer notation that started the 8vb trend, but its usage is at least 20 years old. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On 22-Jun-08, at 1:59 AM, Don Hart wrote: What I do miss with smart shapes in some instances is the ability to use staff lists. On tempo-related items, which I don't put on every line in an orchestral score, any use of a smart shape requires me to choose between a lack of continuity of style in the score and (I'm using 2006, so no linked score and parts) adding items to parts, or a separate parts file, later. Don Yes, I miss staff lists for Smart Shapes, too. But there is a way around this. First of all, while in the score you can copy ONLY measure-attached Smart Shapes using a filter, from one staff to all the others. You can nudge each one individually to set the positioning (you might have to nudge it again anyway in the part, but it's a start). Then while holding down the override key (on Mac it's the command key; i'm not sure on PC) right click and set Show to off one at a time for every staff except the ones you want it to show on - IN THE SCORE. Because you held down the override key when you hid it in the score, they will still be showing in the linked parts. Cool, eh? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On 21-Jun-08, at 11:57 AM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: Christopher Smith / 08.6.20 / 5:14 PM wrote: What exactly do you understand C4 to mean, then? It is different from what I thought, apparently, so even more reason to avoid it. The rule we should agree on for consistency is that number represents the highest note always, i.e., 6 means no 7th, 13th means it could contain all the available tensions in the voicing. Your example, C-F-Bb can be C7(sus omit 5th) or C-7(sus omit 5th). If it were written as C-11, you can expect to hear 4th voicings like C-F- Bb from most of the players, but you won't get that sound if it were written as dominant sus. But there is a 5th in C4, according to you, so the 4th is NOT the highest chord member! Also, your recommendation for my example (this reading is not one I endorse, by the way!) Cm7(sus omit 5) is not accurate, because there is not necessarily an implication of a suspended MINOR third in the structure. If I wrote it as Cm11, I would almost certainly get Eb's from the chord instruments, which is not wanted! I suppose what it comes down to is that chord symbols are general and shorthand. If one wants exact voicings or even exact collections of pitches, then it will have to be written out and the chord symbol dispensed with. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On 21-Jun-08, at 3:18 PM, John Howell wrote: At 10:14 AM -0500 6/21/08, Randolph Peters wrote: Christopher Smith wrote: ...I did it that way when I was using pen and ink, too. Finale didn't invent the practice; it was current for most the second half of the 20th century, as far as I can make out. Not everyone used it, but it WAS used, and I find it very clear and unambiguous. I have to second what Christopher says. I remember being one of a number of people who lobbied the Finale people to include 8vb as a notational option in the program. I can't remember in what version they added it though. I can't argue with everyone's practical experience, but could this be one of the things (one of the MANY things!) in which jazz practice and classical practice differ? After all, classical players are quite often playing from 19th century engravings. Oh, there aren't THAT many differences! There are way more similarities. And I have seen 8vb in classical tuba parts, even ones older than ten years, NOT copied with Finale. But your point about classical players spending a lot of time with 19th C parts is valid, as that certainly informs their expectations. I have gotten complaints from classical orchestral horn players, for example, for handing out parts with key signatures. Apparently in some orchestras that program mostly classical warhorses they can go most of the season without ever seeing a part with a key signature, and consider the inclusion of one on a horn part to be an error! Yet it is a perfectly normal and correct convention in post 19th C music. The trumpet and timpani players (who see similar parts in pre 20th C repertoire) apparently are better-rounded players, because they deal with the key signatures without so much as a raised eyebrow. christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
That was true 2 or 3 generations ago but this horn player has no problem with key signatures and doesn't know anyone who does. Those guys must live in a very small musical world. Richard Smith http://www.rgsmithmusic.com http://horn.rgsmithmusic.com Christopher Smith wrote: But your point about classical players spending a lot of time with 19th C parts is valid, as that certainly informs their expectations. I have gotten complaints from classical orchestral horn players, for example, for handing out parts with key signatures. Apparently in some orchestras that program mostly classical warhorses they can go most of the season without ever seeing a part with a key signature, and consider the inclusion of one on a horThat n part to be an error! Yet it is a perfectly normal and correct convention in post 19th C music. The trumpet and timpani players (who see similar parts in pre 20th C repertoire) apparently are better-rounded players, because they deal with the key signatures without so much as a raised eyebrow. christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Christopher Smith / 08.6.22 / 2:18 PM wrote: But there is a 5th in C4, according to you, so the 4th is NOT the highest chord member! Don't know how I mislead you but there won't be 5th on C4 as I said in my original response. 4 is the highest. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
I use 8ba. Removes all doubt. Even better - write it out whenever appropritate - 8ba indications are easy to ignore or miss. (I suppose that means that 8ba removes _nearly_ all doubt.) Raymond Horton - Original Message - From: A-NO-NE Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, June 20, 2008 17:11 Subject: Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa To: finale@shsu.edu dhbailey / 08.6.20 / 3:55 PM wrote: Would everybody understand it? I doubt it. Does everybody understand what '8va' means when placed beneath a row of notes? Yes. I use 8va basso. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:45 PM, John Howell wrote: At 1:23 PM -0500 6/20/08, Paul Hayden wrote: I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the Smart Shape Options window.) 1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish? Very much so, because it appears to be some programmer's idea and is not standard notation (as you seem to have discovered). So is the term tuplets, of course, but at least that isn't something that goes on the page. John While I lovingly hold on to many of the things I learned as I was growing; things like the distinction between less and fewer - that are quickly disappearing in language's resolute tendency towards efficiency (and perhaps loss of nuance), I agree with Christopher and Darcy that 8va and 8vb have become unambiguous symbols. Their acceptance (nearly universal in my experience) makes reading music easier and less cluttered, and I'm all for anything that does that without losing the ability to convey information clearly. Chuck -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Christopher Smith / 08.6.20 / 5:14 PM wrote: What exactly do you understand C4 to mean, then? It is different from what I thought, apparently, so even more reason to avoid it. The rule we should agree on for consistency is that number represents the highest note always, i.e., 6 means no 7th, 13th means it could contain all the available tensions in the voicing. Your example, C-F-Bb can be C7(sus omit 5th) or C-7(sus omit 5th). If it were written as C-11, you can expect to hear 4th voicings like C-F- Bb from most of the players, but you won't get that sound if it were written as dominant sus. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Christopher Smith wrote: ...I did it that way when I was using pen and ink, too. Finale didn't invent the practice; it was current for most the second half of the 20th century, as far as I can make out. Not everyone used it, but it WAS used, and I find it very clear and unambiguous. I have to second what Christopher says. I remember being one of a number of people who lobbied the Finale people to include 8vb as a notational option in the program. I can't remember in what version they added it though. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
At 10:14 AM -0500 6/21/08, Randolph Peters wrote: Christopher Smith wrote: ...I did it that way when I was using pen and ink, too. Finale didn't invent the practice; it was current for most the second half of the 20th century, as far as I can make out. Not everyone used it, but it WAS used, and I find it very clear and unambiguous. I have to second what Christopher says. I remember being one of a number of people who lobbied the Finale people to include 8vb as a notational option in the program. I can't remember in what version they added it though. I can't argue with everyone's practical experience, but could this be one of the things (one of the MANY things!) in which jazz practice and classical practice differ? After all, classical players are quite often playing from 19th century engravings. John -- We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
When I was using my first computerized notation years ago (called SMUT (=System for MUsical Transcription) the word for tuplets was groupettes (not, I'm sure, to be confused with grupetti). ajr At 1:23 PM -0500 6/20/08, Paul Hayden wrote: I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the Smart Shape Options window.) 1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish? Very much so, because it appears to be some programmer's idea and is not standard notation (as you seem to have discovered). So is the term tuplets, of course, but at least that isn't something that goes on the page. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Christopher Smith wrote: ...I did it that way when I was using pen and ink, too. Finale didn't invent the practice; it was current for most the second half of the 20th century, as far as I can make out. Not everyone used it, but it WAS used, and I find it very clear and unambiguous. I replied: I have to second what Christopher says. I remember being one of a number of people who lobbied the Finale people to include 8vb as a notational option in the program. I can't remember in what version they added it though. John Howell added: I can't argue with everyone's practical experience, but could this be one of the things (one of the MANY things!) in which jazz practice and classical practice differ? After all, classical players are quite often playing from 19th century engravings. I'm not a jazzer, but speaking as a composer, I'm sure that many contemporary notational practices have their origin in the jazz world. (To say nothing of other musical borrowings.) I've often asked for falls, doits, and shakes for example, and most classical players have had no problem producing them. I can't vouch for the jazz origin of 8vb though. It just seems like an understandable, clear, concise instruction that avoids the problem of the lower staff of a piano part interfering with the top staff of the next system (among other things). -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 21, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Randolph Peters wrote: I remember being one of a number of people who lobbied the Finale people to include 8vb as a notational option in the program. I can't remember in what version they added it though. Well it was in FinMac 2.0.1, which is where I came in. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On 20 Jun 2008 at 19:20, John Howell wrote: At 4:01 PM -0400 6/20/08, Christopher Smith wrote: Taking 8vb to mean ottava bassa is so common nowadays as to eclipse the original usage. I would put 8va above and 8vb below wherever space permits, though. I don't expect to convince anyone, but doesn't that assume that everyone copying music is using one of the computer engraving programs that have adopted the practice? The pre-theory text I used when teaching at NYU used it, so I don't see it as limited to music notation programs. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 21, 2008, at 3:18 PM, John Howell wrote: I can't argue with everyone's practical experience, but could this be one of the things (one of the MANY things!) in which jazz practice and classical practice differ? After all, classical players are quite often playing from 19th century engravings. I addressed this in a posting two days ago to which there has been no response whatever. Let me repeat: 8vb had *zero* presence in the classical world until about ten years ago, if that. It is gradually creeping in now precisely because it is the default in Finale. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Sat, June 21, 2008 6:15 pm, Andrew Stiller wrote: I addressed this in a posting two days ago to which there has been no response whatever. Let me repeat: 8vb had *zero* presence in the classical world until about ten years ago, if that. Andrew is usually right, so I went back to my dusty boxes and checked manuscripts from 1967 until I started using Finale in 1993. I never used 8va for transposition down. But my manuscripts had three versions: 8vab (used in just one manuscript); just plain 8 for up or down with a starting hook as well as an ending hook (my most frequent choice); and 8 with an arrow following it to indicate up or down (used in two manuscripts). It appears that 8vb had been so completely logical that it had altered my own memories of what I used. Tip o' the osmiroid again to Andrew. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Ottava bassa
I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the Smart Shape Options window.) 1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish? 2. Do you normally use 8va and its dashed bracket line in Smart Shapes, or do you do it all manually with an Expression 8va and then the dashed bracket tool in Smart Shapes? Paul Hayden Magnolia Music Press 6319 Riverbend Blvd. Baton Rouge, LA 70820 Voice Pre-arranged fax: 225-769-9604 www.paulhayden.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On 20 Jun 2008, at 2:23 PM, Paul Hayden wrote: I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. Due respect to Read, but that's an outdated view. 1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish? Not in the slightest. 2. Do you normally use 8va and its dashed bracket line in Smart Shapes, Yes. or do you do it all manually with an Expression 8va and then the dashed bracket tool in Smart Shapes? No -- why would you do that? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
I like the 8vb for the octave lower rather than the 8va. I think it's reactively clearer. And I use it via Smart Shape since it breaks systems. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios West Linn OR www.thomastudios.com On Jun 20, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Paul Hayden wrote: I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the Smart Shape Options window.) 1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish? 2. Do you normally use 8va and its dashed bracket line in Smart Shapes, or do you do it all manually with an Expression 8va and then the dashed bracket tool in Smart Shapes? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
jd IMAP wrote: I like the 8vb for the octave lower rather than the 8va. I think it's reactively clearer. And I use it via Smart Shape since it breaks systems. But it's a bastardization of the original 8va which does not mean ottava alta or any such thing. It simply meant ottava or octave. Its placement above the music means an octave above, and its placement below the music means to play the music an octave below what is written. So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense abbreviation of a non-existent word. Would everybody understand it? I doubt it. Does everybody understand what '8va' means when placed beneath a row of notes? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On 20 Jun 2008, at 3:55 PM, dhbailey wrote: So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense abbreviation of a non-existent word. Wrong. Ottava basso is a perfectly legitimate word, and 8vb is a perfectly sensible abbreviation (8v = ottava, b = basso). Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:55 PM, dhbailey wrote: jd IMAP wrote: I like the 8vb for the octave lower rather than the 8va. I think it's reactively clearer. And I use it via Smart Shape since it breaks systems. But it's a bastardization of the original 8va which does not mean ottava alta or any such thing. It simply meant ottava or octave. Its placement above the music means an octave above, and its placement below the music means to play the music an octave below what is written. So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense abbreviation of a non-existent word. Would everybody understand it? I doubt it. Does everybody understand what '8va' means when placed beneath a row of notes? Who really cares?? If it works, it works. I've had musicians tells me it's just a bit clearer. To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4. I've used both, prefer the former, and I've never had it questioned. Same with the 8vb. You can be a purist if you want to, but in the long-term, it doesn't really matter. What matters to me is what gets played correctly and without any question. I've never seen the 8vb misread, but I have seen 8va under the staff misread. Granted, the musician was probably a moron, but it happened, and it took away a bit of valuable time. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios West Linn OR www.thomastudios.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Fri, June 20, 2008 3:55 pm, dhbailey wrote: But it's a bastardization of the original 8va which does not mean ottava alta or any such thing. It simply meant ottava or octave. Its placement above the music means an octave above, and its placement below the music means to play the music an octave below what is written. So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense abbreviation of a non-existent word. Like the ATM machine redundancy or their as singular or myriad as a noun or dial for touch telephones or logon for open websites or a thousand other changes that seem illogical or historically uninformed, this is among them. What makes it unclear? Don't forget that it is used in local-language-only scores (along with just 8). And to me 8va and 8vb are doubly helpful because the placement of an 8va or 8 symbol between nearby staves is ambiguous unless you hunt for a line and hook. Plus it's been around a long time. I just checked -- I was using it before 1970, and yes, I had the first edition of Read with the green cover with Stockhausen on the back and learned from it. But I also knew where his advice was not really useful. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
jd IMAP / 08.6.20 / 4:31 PM wrote: To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4. Oh, c'mon! They are not the same! C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th. Besides, C4 is very dangerous! Highly explosive. I understand languages change, but that doesn't mean it is OK to be incorrect. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
dhbailey / 08.6.20 / 3:55 PM wrote: Would everybody understand it? I doubt it. Does everybody understand what '8va' means when placed beneath a row of notes? Yes. I use 8va basso. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Darcy James Argue wrote: On 20 Jun 2008, at 3:55 PM, dhbailey wrote: So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense abbreviation of a non-existent word. Wrong. Ottava basso is a perfectly legitimate word, and 8vb is a perfectly sensible abbreviation (8v = ottava, b = basso). But the original '8va' was an abbreviation of 'ottava' 8v isn't an abbreviation of anything. In the original Italian, the abbreviation was 8va and in English the abbreviation is 8ve. Of course anybody can use anything they want anywhere they wish, and if it's understood in that musical circle it's fine. But to expect it to be understood by the larger musical world might be stretching things. All the musical reference works I've ever looked in on this subject say the same thing -- none refer to 8vb as anything, and all explain that 8va means to play at the octave, with placement above the notes indicating an octave higher. And wouldn't it be 'ottava bassa' since ottava is a feminine noun in Italian? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:31 PM, jd IMAP wrote: To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4. I've used both, prefer the former, and I've never had it questioned. I'm not disputing the original point, but this one. C4 in some circles means a stack of 4ths up from C, so C, F, Bb, which is not the same function as C,F,G. It is this that keeps me using the more unwieldy, but crystal clear, Csus4. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:56 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: Oh, c'mon! They are not the same! C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th. Not in my neck of the woods! *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios West Linn OR www.thomastudios.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb. I've used that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not once was it misinterpreted. At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate. Maybe it's a right vs left coast thing. I still hate those triangles for major 7ths and the minus dash for minor 7ths. Ugh. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios West Linn OR www.thomastudios.com On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:31 PM, jd IMAP wrote: To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4. I've used both, prefer the former, and I've never had it questioned. I'm not disputing the original point, but this one. C4 in some circles means a stack of 4ths up from C, so C, F, Bb, which is not the same function as C,F,G. It is this that keeps me using the more unwieldy, but crystal clear, Csus4. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On 20 Jun 2008, at 5:07 PM, dhbailey wrote: Wrong. Ottava basso is a perfectly legitimate word, and 8vb is a perfectly sensible abbreviation (8v = ottava, b = basso). But the original '8va' was an abbreviation of 'ottava' 8v isn't an abbreviation of anything. Yes it is. It's an abbreviation of ottava. Words can have multiple abbreviations, as you admit in your very next sentence. In the original Italian, the abbreviation was 8va and in English the abbreviation is 8ve. The original Italian is not relevant. If you don't object to violins, cellos, concertos, and tempos, and all the rest, then it's pretty silly to take issue with 8vb. As others have pointed out, the 8vb marking is also more functional, especially if the line stretches over multiple systems and the vertical spacing is tight. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 5:19 PM, jd IMAP wrote: On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:56 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: Oh, c'mon! They are not the same! C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th. Not in my neck of the woods! All the more reason to use a more universal symbol. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 5:24 PM, jd IMAP wrote: I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb. I've used that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not once was it misinterpreted. At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate. Maybe it's a right vs left coast thing. I still hate those triangles for major 7ths and the minus dash for minor 7ths. Ugh. May I refer you to the Gibraltar and Friends fakebook (not its official name, but that's the first tune), in which the turnaround for Stolen Moments (4th structure built up from D, (D,G, C) rises in semitones, and is noted as D4, Eb4, etc.? Other tunes in the book are similar. That's partly why I don't like ambiguous chord symbols. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Or how 'bout the devil's head for a tritone? ajr I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb. I've used that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not once was it misinterpreted. At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate. Maybe it's a right vs left coast thing. I still hate those triangles for major 7ths and the minus dash for minor 7ths. Ugh. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios West Linn OR www.thomastudios.com On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:31 PM, jd IMAP wrote: To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4. I've used both, prefer the former, and I've never had it questioned. I'm not disputing the original point, but this one. C4 in some circles means a stack of 4ths up from C, so C, F, Bb, which is not the same function as C,F,G. It is this that keeps me using the more unwieldy, but crystal clear, Csus4. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:56 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: jd IMAP / 08.6.20 / 4:31 PM wrote: To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4. Oh, c'mon! They are not the same! C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th. Besides, C4 is very dangerous! Highly explosive. I understand languages change, but that doesn't mean it is OK to be incorrect. What exactly do you understand C4 to mean, then? It is different from what I thought, apparently, so even more reason to avoid it. I have used non-traditional chord symbols before, but I put an incipit at the top of the chart explaining it. Like when I have a piece that has a lot of Cadd9omit3, I use C2, but I don't expect everyone to know what it is, as it is non-traditional. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 6:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or how 'bout the devil's head for a tritone? ajr Check this out for a huge laugh about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0 or if the link doesn't work, go to youtube and search kaamelott and the perfect fifth it's in French, subtitled in English, but the translation is not as funny as the original French. Ça me fait gerber! is an example, which doesn't translate gracefully, AFAIK. christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 5:24 PM, jd IMAP wrote: I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb. I've used that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not once was it misinterpreted. At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate. BTW, that would have been a nice sneer in our direction, if you hadn't typed it with a smile on your face, indicating it was a joke. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Boy, things got busy all of a sudden! On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Paul Hayden wrote: I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. That usage is very old-fashioned and IMO no longer correct. The rule is intimately connected to another rule--now abandoned for some 50 years--that held that 8va should appear only above a treble staff (meaning an octave up) or below a bass staff (meaning an octave down). Strains in this custom began to appear when composers began writing piano music that required frequent clef changes in both hands. For most of the 20th c. , the standard and most clear notation *among classical composers* has been to write 8va above any staff regardless of clef, and to write 8va bassa (never basso) below any staff regardless of clef. If you follow the old rule and simply write 8va below a staff, it is bound to cause at least some confusion because it has become important always to indicate if the octave transition is up or down. I noticed that FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the Smart Shape Options window.) I had never seen or heard of 8vb until I started using Finale in 1991. Until very recently it has been a strictly jazz/Broadway usage, and is the default in Finale because the original developers of the program came from the jazz world. I was surprised to learn from this thread that it goes back as far as 1970, for right up to the end of the 20th c. it had no presence in the classical world at all. The need for a compact octave-down symbol (as opposed to the standard 8va bassa) has been felt for quite some time now, and various streamlined versions have been used by various classical composers for the past half century or more; I particularly like Messiaen's plain 8 for up and 8ba for down. Anyway, 8vb has started showing up in new classical scores precisely because it is the default in Finale! It is just one of a great many things that are changing in the notation of new music because they are particularly easy or particularly hard to do in Finale or Sibelius. Look, for example, at the profusion of musical graphics and unorthodox stems and noteheads used by classical composers in the 60s and 70s: these things are mostly gone in 21st century works, in large part because engraving programs find them difficult and arduous to handle. Now, as to what the abbreviations actually mean. 8va is indeed the Italian equivalent of 8th and is used in that sense in all kinds of contexts, not just musical ones. Streamlined versions of 8va bassa however often start with the idea tha 8va abbreviates not ottaVA but ottaVa Alta--which reflects its actual meaning in recent music. If 8va abbreviates ottava alta, then 8vb quite logically must symbolize ottava bassa, and it is important to realize that if you use 8vb (or 8ba or any other similarly constructed reform notation) you *cannot* use 8va to signify anything but an octave *up*. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 7:20 PM, John Howell wrote: At 4:01 PM -0400 6/20/08, Christopher Smith wrote: Taking 8vb to mean ottava bassa is so common nowadays as to eclipse the original usage. I would put 8va above and 8vb below wherever space permits, though. I don't expect to convince anyone, but doesn't that assume that everyone copying music is using one of the computer engraving programs that have adopted the practice? That's like assuming that everyone has a computer, or a cell phone, or an iPod. They don't!!! Lots of people do. Since I teach college students, lots of people whom I know do. But everyone? No way! Umm, no, I did it that way when I was using pen and ink, too. Finale didn't invent the practice; it was current for most the second half of the 20th century, as far as I can make out. Not everyone used it, but it WAS used, and I find it very clear and unambiguous. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
C4 = CFG (from the bottom up). It has worked every time in every instance I've used it. Now that you have pointed to the Gibraltar and Friends fakebook, we have a dichotomy. So what else is new in the world of music notation. BTW, you're right when I wrote have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb. I've used that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not once was it misinterpreted. At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate. I was smiling, or smirking as the case may be. I neglected to illustrate that. ; ) *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios West Linn OR www.thomastudios.com On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: What exactly do you understand C4 to mean, then? It is different from what I thought, apparently, so even more reason to avoid it. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
At 1:23 PM -0500 6/20/08, Paul Hayden wrote: I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the Smart Shape Options window.) 1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish? Very much so, because it appears to be some programmer's idea and is not standard notation (as you seem to have discovered). So is the term tuplets, of course, but at least that isn't something that goes on the page. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:51 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:56 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: Oh, c'mon! They are not the same! C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th. Not in my neck of the woods! All the more reason to use a more universal symbol. Fair enough, but not an easy task, going back to the left/right coast sentiment. To that end, how about C(4)? Most of my shorthand with chord symbols comes from my hand copying days in the early 80s, way before computers and music notation programs. Old habits die hard. sus4, add9, etc. I was doing a sh*tload of those kind of charts then and hated writing out all that chord verbage. I started writing C(9) instead of Cadd9 and it not only appeased my basic sense of impatience, the musicians I worked with instantly gravitated towards it, read it without any hesitation whatsoever, and the game was on. C5 was very common and the idea came from a guitar player when we were rehearsing. So C4 for me was a natural gravitation. But, you can't please everyone. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios West Linn OR www.thomastudios.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
On 20 Jun 2008, at 3:45 PM, John Howell wrote: Very much so, because it appears to be some programmer's idea and is not standard notation (as you seem to have discovered). It's standard notation *now*. It's been standard notation for years (certainly predating Finale). It's compact, functional, and unambiguous. There's nothing wrong with it in the slightest, other than Oh no, it's slightly different from what I grew up with. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
