RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Wow. So every imported word, or word of foreign origin, is to be discounted? That certainly cuts down the options... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 20 October 2006 00:55 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] On 19 Oct 2006 at 20:31, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 19 October 2006 05:32 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] There are no English pronunciation rules that I know of that treat the reversal of the letter sounds as correct in any case. None? I could reel off plenty for you if you want. Or are you dismissing all regional variations out-of-hand? Name the rules, please. My bet is that all of them will be for words with non-English roots. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 9:31 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: There are no English pronunciation rules that I know of that treat the reversal of the letter sounds as correct in any case. Reversal of sounds? That's not so uncommon. In phonology there's even a name for it (metathesis). Presumably you will reject aks and asteriks as incorrect, but almost everyone says uncomfterble. There are also metatheses in which a vowel sound and consonant sound are swapped, such as i-urn (and its relative envi-urnment. mdl (who actually says eye-run, much to the amusement of his wife) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
In a message dated 20/10/2006 09:09:33 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: but almost everyone says uncomfterble Not round here they don't. Cheers, Lawrence ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
David W. Fenton wrote: On 19 Oct 2006 at 20:31, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 19 October 2006 05:32 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] There are no English pronunciation rules that I know of that treat the reversal of the letter sounds as correct in any case. None? I could reel off plenty for you if you want. Or are you dismissing all regional variations out-of-hand? Name the rules, please. My bet is that all of them will be for words with non-English roots. Most of English is made up of words with non-English roots. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Bob Commanday [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Hi Mark, I don't know how interesting this stuff is to the list in general but, yes you remember Bob correctly, and he still lives in Piedmont, CA. Chuck On Oct 20, 2006, at 1:11 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:06 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Actually, my mother's brother, Bob Commanday, whose music reviews you may have read in SF Chronicle, when you were in Oakland, although he had retired from that post by the time I remember joining this list and seeing your posts and some mention of Oakland. Sure, I remember Commanday, but more from the SF Classical Voice website than from the Chronicle. I think I may have met him once, too. Wasn't he the director of Oakland Symphony Chorus way back when? OSC was my first musical contact when I came to California as a callow youth in the mid-80s. That was during the Joe Liebling era, but several years later there was some sort of anniversary event in which several former directors each conducted a piece for a sing-along concert. I think Commanday was one of them ... unless I'm getting him mixed up with someone else. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Bob Commanday [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Did he not also teach at UC Berkeley ... in the musicology area, perhaps? Dean On Oct 20, 2006, at 8:08 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: Hi Mark, I don't know how interesting this stuff is to the list in general but, yes you remember Bob correctly, and he still lives in Piedmont, CA. Chuck On Oct 20, 2006, at 1:11 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:06 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Actually, my mother's brother, Bob Commanday, whose music reviews you may have read in SF Chronicle, when you were in Oakland, although he had retired from that post by the time I remember joining this list and seeing your posts and some mention of Oakland. Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Bob Commanday [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Dean, No Robert did not teach at Berkeley. He was the conductor of the Glee Club and Treble Clef Society choirs many years ago, both non-faculty, student association positions, and it was the fact that he was never hired by the music department that eventually lead to his taking the job as the music critic for the Chronicle. This is old family history, and I'm not sure I remember many of the details, but that's the gist of it. Chuck -- Original message -- From: Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did he not also teach at UC Berkeley ... in the musicology area, perhaps? Dean On Oct 20, 2006, at 8:08 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: Hi Mark, I don't know how interesting this stuff is to the list in general but, yes you remember Bob correctly, and he still lives in Piedmont, CA. Chuck On Oct 20, 2006, at 1:11 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:06 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Actually, my mother's brother, Bob Commanday, whose music reviews you may have read in SF Chronicle, when you were in Oakland, although he had retired from that post by the time I remember joining this list and seeing your posts and some mention of Oakland. Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On 20 Oct 2006 at 8:44, Owain Sutton wrote: So every imported word, or word of foreign origin, is to be discounted? That certainly cuts down the options... Well, the pronunciation rules of imported worlds are not pure English. Most times they aren't faithful to the source language, either. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
What on earth is pure English?! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 20 October 2006 22:49 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] On 20 Oct 2006 at 8:44, Owain Sutton wrote: So every imported word, or word of foreign origin, is to be discounted? That certainly cuts down the options... Well, the pronunciation rules of imported worlds are not pure English. Most times they aren't faithful to the source language, either. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
In a message dated 20/10/2006 23:10:24 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What on earth is pure English?! It's like wot I talk like. Lawrence ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Fack orf. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 October 2006 23:11 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] In a message dated 20/10/2006 23:10:24 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What on earth is pure English?! It's like wot I talk like. Lawrence ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Illuminating, Owain! And here I've always pronounced his name as: Kah-rull Orf Ya learn something new every day! Best, Les Marsden Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html - Original Message - From: Owain Sutton To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 3:27 PM Subject: RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] Fack orf. :) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Illuminating, Owain! And here I've always pronounced his name as: Kah-rull Orf Ya learn something new every day! Best, Ye mean Boris? cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Actually, I've been a little concerned this thread is beginning to Boris all... Wincingly, (you know: Robert E.'s sister?) Les Les Marsden Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html - Original Message - From: Carl Dershem To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Illuminating, Owain! And here I've always pronounced his name as: Kah-rull Orf Ya learn something new every day! Best, Ye mean Boris? cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 20, 2006, at 6:03 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Actually, I've been a little concerned this thread is beginning to Boris all... Wincingly, (you know: Robert E.'s sister?) Was she a Chinese person? Dean Les Les Marsden Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html - Original Message - From: Carl Dershem To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Illuminating, Owain! And here I've always pronounced his name as: Kah-rull Orf Ya learn something new every day! Best, Ye mean Boris? cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Mark D Lew wrote: On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: I don't know. The answer to this is un-cle-ar to me. Of your mother's brother and your father's brother, which one did you find uncle-y-er? Shouldn't that have been avuncularer? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
David W. Fenton wrote: On 18 Oct 2006 at 19:59, Mark D Lew wrote: For counter-example, the word envelope is pronounced like on-velope by roughly the same percentage of Americans who say nucular, but you rarely hear complaints about it. But the nucular pronunciation gets the letters in the wrong order, while the on-velope is simply a holdover pronunciation from its French origins (I would presume). There are no English pronunciation rules that I know of that treat the reversal of the letter sounds as correct in any case. Well, historically the word girl used to be gril in old-English, but over years usage changed to the easier to say modern order of the letters. Things like failing to pronounce K in knight or knife are the same mispronunciation that we now accept as the educated rule, yet at one time those letters were pronounced. The P in pneumonia is the same thing. The French are stuck with having to pronounce that P at the start of a similar word pneu and the Germans are stuck with pronouncing Ks at the starts of words. But the English simply stopped pronouncing them years ago. I'm sure that on some medieval internet-list concerning the quality of foolscap or the newly evolving musical notations they were bemoaning the mispronunciations of those words, as well. So all this griping about nucular instead of nuclear is just so much whistling into the wind -- it's going to change or not on a permanent basis whenever it will happen and we're helpless to stop it if it's going to occur. Thank goodness we don't have a damned Academy of English to force its concepts of proper pronunciation on us, and our language can and does continue to evolve around us, even as many complain about new uses of words and new pronunciations of older words. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote This makes me wonder: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? Just wondering. Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. Gren-itch is standard BBC pronunciation for Greenwich, England, and green-witch for Greenwich Village, but the inhabitants of Greenwich, England, mostly call it grin-itch. -- Ken Moore ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
At 10/18/2006 04:50 PM, John Roberts wrote: Grenich is correct for lower Manhattan, but Green-wich is correct for the town just northwest of Albany NY. And Grenich is also just outside of NYC in Conn. And the street in NYC is House-ton. Oh, right. I got corrected on that one. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On 19 Oct 2006 at 10:31, Ken Moore wrote: Gren-itch is standard BBC pronunciation for Greenwich, England, and green-witch for Greenwich Village, but the inhabitants of Greenwich, England, mostly call it grin-itch. Then for Greenwich Village in NYC, their pronunciation is in error, as it should be identical to the pronunciation you provide for Greenwich, England. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
At 10/19/2006 09:05 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 19 Oct 2006 at 10:31, Ken Moore wrote: Gren-itch is standard BBC pronunciation for Greenwich, England, and green-witch for Greenwich Village, but the inhabitants of Greenwich, England, mostly call it grin-itch. Then for Greenwich Village in NYC, their pronunciation is in error, as it should be identical to the pronunciation you provide for Greenwich, England. I have never heard anybody call Grenich Village, Green-witch Village. And I have been there a few times. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
At 09:05 AM 10/19/06 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: On 19 Oct 2006 at 10:31, Ken Moore wrote: Gren-itch is standard BBC pronunciation for Greenwich, England, and green-witch for Greenwich Village, but the inhabitants of Greenwich, England, mostly call it grin-itch. Then for Greenwich Village in NYC, their pronunciation is in error, as it should be identical to the pronunciation you provide for Greenwich, England. Depends on the generation, just like Ann sounds like Ian for some but not others. I grew up in New Jersey in the 1950s, and it was always Grin-itch. The -en sound was often said as -in, making my name Dinnis. And speaking of eggcorns (back to that off-topic topic), I read a piece in Salon two days ago where someone talked about widdling down the resolve of a country. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 19 October 2006 05:32 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] On 18 Oct 2006 at 19:59, Mark D Lew wrote: For counter-example, the word envelope is pronounced like on-velope by roughly the same percentage of Americans who say nucular, but you rarely hear complaints about it. But the nucular pronunciation gets the letters in the wrong order, while the on-velope is simply a holdover pronunciation from its French origins (I would presume). There are no English pronunciation rules that I know of that treat the reversal of the letter sounds as correct in any case. -- David W. Fenton None? I could reel off plenty for you if you want. Or are you dismissing all regional variations out-of-hand? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 3:05 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? No, not in my considerable experience in the South, because there isn't a tradition of pronouncing those words in a comparable way... Thanks very much for your serious answer to what was, for my part, a serious question. Among those I've heard say nucular was Hubert Humphrey. The usage is obviously acceptable, but nevertheless it fits, I think, into the class of regional/local/ethnic terms and usages that are best not flaunted before outsiders of brief acquaintance. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 10:59 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: the word envelope is pronounced like on-velope by roughly the same percentage of Americans who say nucular, but you rarely hear complaints about it. That could be because the on-velope sayers are mostly in the Northeast, which has traditionally been the socially dominant region. A lot of us were taught that a [vaze] costs less than $20.00, while a [vahz] costs more. Come to think of it, I grew up saying [onvelope] because my parents were from NYC, but lost it as I became more cosmopolitan, along with such Marylandisms as melk, pellow, heelicopter... Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
The usage is obviously acceptable, but nevertheless it fits, I think, into the class of regional/local/ethnic terms and usages that are best not flaunted before outsiders of brief acquaintance. Agreed; on the order of fixin', as in we were fixin' to go inside when the hounds started barking at a truck turning in the drive. First dibs on Outsiders of Brief Acquaintance as a book or album title if opportunity ever presents itself. Confession: I didn't stop using that pronunciation until I was in college when, still in the South, my girlfriend/future wife/future ex-wife, who as a child deliberately expunged her southern accent, successfully shamed me to adopt the more universal pronunciation. Stu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: There's a very large body of -cular words pulling the pronunciation in that direction, against virtually none that end with a sound like -cle-ar. This makes me wonder: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? Just wondering. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Andrew Stiller wrote: On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: There's a very large body of -cular words pulling the pronunciation in that direction, against virtually none that end with a sound like -cle-ar. This makes me wonder: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? Just wondering. Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Phil Daley wrote: At 10/18/2006 01:57 PM, dhbailey wrote: Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. Except that gren-ich is correct and gren sweater is wrong. You probably say East-Ham instead of Eastim. But gren-ich didn't USED to be correct -- the name started out as GREEN-wich, and usage perverted it to gren-wich. Just as usage is perverting nu-klee-ar to nucular. Actually I don't say either but I have heard British soccer announcers say East-Ham United. Or may it was a spoof of British soccer announcers on Monty Python. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
At 10/18/2006 01:57 PM, dhbailey wrote: Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. Except that gren-ich is correct and gren sweater is wrong. You probably say East-Ham instead of Eastim. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
At 10/18/2006 01:57 PM, dhbailey wrote: Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. Another one that most people pronounce incorrectly is Ore-a-gon. It's actually Or-gun. You can always tell out-of-staters by their mispronunciation. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Not to be unkind to those in question, Andrew, but in my personal observation, those who pronounce Noo-Qu-Lur - when faced with the requirement to speak words such as those you've conjectively semanticized, usual reference same collectively as them thaingys. Sincerely, and with downcast spirit, Les Les Marsden Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html - Original Message - From: Andrew Stiller To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:27 AM Subject: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: There's a very large body of -cular words pulling the pronunciation in that direction, against virtually none that end with a sound like -cle-ar. This makes me wonder: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? Just wondering. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On 18 Oct 2006 at 13:27, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: There's a very large body of -cular words pulling the pronunciation in that direction, against virtually none that end with a sound like -cle-ar. This makes me wonder: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? Just wondering. Ask Jimmy Carter, who is the only intelligent public figure I've ever heard using the nucular pronunciation (he was a nuclear engineer in the Navy, so it's not like he wasn't trained in the field). The current occupant of the oval office has probably never been called upon to utter those other words, thankfully. The one that drives me crazy lately is the morphing of proliferation into porliferation (by guess who). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
At 10/18/2006 02:25 PM, dhbailey wrote: Phil Daley wrote: At 10/18/2006 01:57 PM, dhbailey wrote: Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. Except that gren-ich is correct and gren sweater is wrong. You probably say East-Ham instead of Eastim. But gren-ich didn't USED to be correct -- the name started out as GREEN-wich, and usage perverted it to gren-wich. Just as usage is perverting nu-klee-ar to nucular. Actually I don't say either but I have heard British soccer announcers say East-Ham United. Or may it was a spoof of British soccer announcers on Monty Python. Eastham is on Cape Cod. Right next to Chatham, pronounced Chatim. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On 18 Oct 2006 at 11:28, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Not to be unkind to those in question, Andrew, but in my personal observation, those who pronounce Noo-Qu-Lur - when faced with the requirement to speak words such as those you've conjectively semanticized, usual reference same collectively as them thaingys. Perhaps lately, but Jimmy Carter also said nucular and he had been a nuclear engineer in the Navy. And he wasn't exactly mentally challenged like some more recent public figures who mispronounce the word. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
WOW! And all this time I've been saying Cathedral Ore-a-gon! And now back to warshing the cah Best, Les Les Marsden Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html - Original Message - From: Phil Daley To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn] At 10/18/2006 01:57 PM, dhbailey wrote: Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. Another one that most people pronounce incorrectly is Ore-a-gon. It's actually Or-gun. You can always tell out-of-staters by their mispronunciation. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Phil Daley wrote: Eastham is on Cape Cod. Right next to Chatham, pronounced Chatim. Oh. Not Chaw-tham and Ees-tham? Christopher 8-)=) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
There's a very large body of -cular words pulling the pronunciation in that direction, against virtually none that end with a sound like -cle-ar. This makes me wonder: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? No, not in my considerable experience in the South, because there isn't a tradition of pronouncing those words in a comparable way. Those words never came close to getting the amount of airplay, I expect, with the general public that nuclear did. Nucular is all I heard growing up in small town Mississippi in the late 50's and early 60's. Everyone said that: my dad, who was an educated newspaper editor, the local college professors, including one who worked on the Manhattan Project, all of my teachers, the local TV new folks; it was the only pronunciation current at least at that time in that region. In Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary, the entry for nuclearhas the following usage note: “Though disapproved of by many, pronunciations ending in \-kyə-lər\ have been found in widespread use among educated speakers including scientists, lawyers, professors, congressmen, U.S. cabinet members and at least one U.S. president and one vice president. While most common in the U.S., these pronunciations have also been heard from British and Canadian speakers.” None of the other words listed above has such a usage note in my edition. Not to give anyone in particular a break (absolutely!), but the president referred to above was Jimmy Carter; my dictionary was printed in 1986. He was, of course, in the nuclear submarine program and did graduate work in reactor technology and nuclear physics. I have heard him pronounce the word that way myself on TV, although he may have updated his locution in recent years to avoid guilt by association. Stu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
And, I meant to say, the offending pronunciation is one of two given in the entry for nuclear. The other words in the earlier email don't have a similar pronunciation. I bet that after this administration, with all the focus on this word, this usage will plummet and will, in fact, become incorrect. Fine by me, but for now it isn't, grump about it all you like. Stu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
I don't know. The answer to this is un-cle-ar to me. Chuck On Oct 18, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: There's a very large body of -cular words pulling the pronunciation in that direction, against virtually none that end with a sound like -cle-ar. This makes me wonder: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? Just wondering. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
Grenich is correct for lower Manhattan, but Green-wich is correct for the town just northwest of Albany NY. East Ham is correct for the borough in London. And the street in NYC is House-ton. JR On 10/18/06 2:15 PM, Phil Daley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10/18/2006 01:57 PM, dhbailey wrote: Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. Except that gren-ich is correct and gren sweater is wrong. You probably say East-Ham instead of Eastim. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
All street signs should be required to be rendered in IPA. Dean On Oct 18, 2006, at 1:50 PM, John Roberts wrote: Grenich is correct for lower Manhattan, but Green-wich is correct for the town just northwest of Albany NY. East Ham is correct for the borough in London. And the street in NYC is House-ton. JR On 10/18/06 2:15 PM, Phil Daley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10/18/2006 01:57 PM, dhbailey wrote: Probably not anymore than people who say gren-ich instead of green-wich say they're wearing a gren sweater instead of green sweater. Except that gren-ich is correct and gren sweater is wrong. You probably say East-Ham instead of Eastim. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: This makes me wonder: do people who say nucular also say nuculus? Nuculotide? Enuculated? Nuculons? Nuculic acids? Just wondering. I've heard nuculus before. It's not nearly as common as nucular, though. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: I don't know. The answer to this is un-cle-ar to me. Of your mother's brother and your father's brother, which one did you find uncle-y-er? mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 11:42 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: Ask Jimmy Carter, who is the only intelligent public figure I've ever heard using the nucular pronunciation (he was a nuclear engineer in the Navy, so it's not like he wasn't trained in the field). Although I'm not old enough to have heard him, I understand that President Eisenhower also pronounced the word nucular. Regional variations in pronunciation are a reality of the language. Besides the overall regional accent, there are many words which have more than one acceptable pronunciation, and use of the variant pronunciation is strongly correlated to a regional or social group. What is interesting to me is that some regional variations are considered ignorant and wrong while others are accepted as equally valid alternatives. Which is the case seems to be correlated not so much to the size of the group using the alternative as the social status of said group. The nucular pronunciation is overwhelmingly used in the South, and America has traditionally viewed its Southerners as less intelligent and less educated. For counter-example, the word envelope is pronounced like on-velope by roughly the same percentage of Americans who say nucular, but you rarely hear complaints about it. That could be because the on-velope sayers are mostly in the Northeast, which has traditionally been the socially dominant region. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On Oct 18, 2006, at 7:21 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: I don't know. The answer to this is un-cle-ar to me. Of your mother's brother and your father's brother, which one did you find uncle-y-er? Actually, my mother's brother, Bob Commanday, whose music reviews you may have read in SF Chronicle, when you were in Oakland, although he had retired from that post by the time I remember joining this list and seeing your posts and some mention of Oakland. Chuck mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] Nucular [was:Finale eggcorn]
On 18 Oct 2006 at 19:59, Mark D Lew wrote: For counter-example, the word envelope is pronounced like on-velope by roughly the same percentage of Americans who say nucular, but you rarely hear complaints about it. But the nucular pronunciation gets the letters in the wrong order, while the on-velope is simply a holdover pronunciation from its French origins (I would presume). There are no English pronunciation rules that I know of that treat the reversal of the letter sounds as correct in any case. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
