Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
On Jun 7, 2007, at 12:09 PM, John Howell wrote: What makes things interesting is that instruments have evolved since a century ago, let alone a century and a half. Verdi wrote for a bass brass instrument, knowing that his orchestras would use an Ophicleide. Today those parts would be played on a tuba, but I seem to remember reading that Verdi himself expressed a preference for the Cimbasso. I have on multiple occasions seen the grand march from Aida played with a cimbasso in the orchestra, including one concert by a youth orchestra. (I say "seen" rather than "heard" because I'm not sure I'd recognize any difference in sound, but I certainly recognize a cimbasso on sight.) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
Zelenka certainly wrote wonderful parts for bassoon in his trio sonatas. Bach wrote a very active bassoon part for Cantata 150 (if my memory serves) that goes down to low A. Howell wrote: I recall reading that R. Strauss and some others (Mahler?) wrote for flutes with a low Bb. Ergo, someone in Vienna must have been making such flutes They are certainly made today. At the time when flutes started to acquire foot joints, there was no consensus that C should be the bottom note, and some flutes were made descending as far down as G--and there were composers who wrote for them! I think Schumann asks for this note somewhere or other. What Stravinsky did to bassoonists has caused several generations to have extra keys added to their instruments, but the bassoonist who played the premier must have been able to do so with his existing instrument. Stravinsky did nothing to bassoonists but exploit the already established full range of the instrument. He got this, BTW, from Tchaikovsky, who did not hesitate to write the high D when he wanted it. My first bassoon had no D speaker key, and I had no trouble reaching the high C#, D, or Eb. The top E, I admit gave me fits--but I was just a beginner. For my money Stravinsky was the greatest writer of bassoon parts who ever lived--except maybe Vivaldi. S. is certainly the only composer to treat it, fearlessly, as entirely equal to the other WW, and I love playing his stuff. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Harold Owen 1375 Olive Street #402, Eugene, OR 97401 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit my web site at: http://uoregon.edu/~hjowen/ FAX: (509) 461-3608 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
On Jun 7, 2007, at 3:09 PM, John Howell wrote: I recall reading that R. Strauss and some others (Mahler?) wrote for flutes with a low Bb. Ergo, someone in Vienna must have been making such flutes They are certainly made today. At the time when flutes started to acquire foot joints, there was no consensus that C should be the bottom note, and some flutes were made descending as far down as G--and there were composers who wrote for them! I think Schumann asks for this note somewhere or other. What Stravinsky did to bassoonists has caused several generations to have extra keys added to their instruments, but the bassoonist who played the premier must have been able to do so with his existing instrument. Stravinsky did nothing to bassoonists but exploit the already established full range of the instrument. He got this, BTW, from Tchaikovsky, who did not hesitate to write the high D when he wanted it. My first bassoon had no D speaker key, and I had no trouble reaching the high C#, D, or Eb. The top E, I admit gave me fits--but I was just a beginner. For my money Stravinsky was the greatest writer of bassoon parts who ever lived--except maybe Vivaldi. S. is certainly the only composer to treat it, fearlessly, as entirely equal to the other WW, and I love playing his stuff. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
John Howell wrote: What makes things interesting is that instruments have evolved since a century ago, let alone a century and a half. Verdi wrote for a bass brass instrument, knowing that his orchestras would use an Ophicleide. Today those parts would be played on a tuba, but I seem to remember reading that Verdi himself expressed a preference for the Cimbasso. John That's a whole 'nother can o' worms. RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
At 1:23 AM -0400 6/7/07, Raymond Horton wrote: The Janacek Sinfonietta bass trumpet part (2 in unison) is unusually low. Hard to get a good sound that loud on any bass trumpet I've ever played. Fun to try, though! I would like to know what instruments the composer had available. And that question is the most important one in this discussion. I can't imagine any composer (lacking suicidal tendencies) writing for an instrument that he does not know exists and does not know could possibly be made available. I recall reading that R. Strauss and some others (Mahler?) wrote for flutes with a low Bb. Ergo, someone in Vienna must have been making such flutes (and even piccolos?). What Stravinsky did to bassoonists has caused several generations to have extra keys added to their instruments, but the bassoonist who played the premier must have been able to do so with his existing instrument. What makes things interesting is that instruments have evolved since a century ago, let alone a century and a half. Verdi wrote for a bass brass instrument, knowing that his orchestras would use an Ophicleide. Today those parts would be played on a tuba, but I seem to remember reading that Verdi himself expressed a preference for the Cimbasso. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
So we need to send for the calvary when the Rite comes up? Interesting theory. I remember the low F's in Agon. I assumed Strav just kept all the parts in C for simplicity, but knew the third player would play the part on a Bb, which is what happens in performance. Ravel (I remember the lick but forget which work) has similar writing down to low E for 3rd C trumpet. 'Splain that! Any C or Bb trumpet can play a low F by extending the third valve slide a full half step, and changing fingerings for a few bars. This is described in the Arban's book. Not their fave technique, but they do it if they have to (a prominent note just before the end of _Zarathustra_ - low concert Eb [low C four leger lines and a space below the staff in the Eb trumpet parts] is generally played as a low F on Bb trumpets). But an Eb alto trumpet likely may not have the tubing available in the third valve slide. I played one once, but don't remember - it probably did not. I know the Bb bass trumpet I have in my studio right now isn't close to having enough. RBH Andrew Stiller wrote: The Rite of Spring Eb "bass trumpet" should be called alto. It is a double for the 5th C trumpet. But the part creates another problem, because Stravinsky exceeds the range, going down to the written low F (concert Ab) which is difficult or impossible to reach on an Eb instrument, and very low for a trumpet player indeed. Stravinsky routinely takes trumpets down to the low F natural (he does it in Agon, frinstance), and I believe he had in mind the so-called German cavalry fingering, wherein the third valve is tuned a half step lower than usual. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
The Rite of Spring Eb "bass trumpet" should be called alto. It is a double for the 5th C trumpet. But the part creates another problem, because Stravinsky exceeds the range, going down to the written low F (concert Ab) which is difficult or impossible to reach on an Eb instrument, and very low for a trumpet player indeed. Stravinsky routinely takes trumpets down to the low F natural (he does it in Agon, frinstance), and I believe he had in mind the so-called German cavalry fingering, wherein the third valve is tuned a half step lower than usual. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
On Jun 7, 2007, at 1:41 AM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: BTW, does any of the brass players here know how orchestra players would feel about which trumpets would be best to alternate with Fluegelhorns? Would b-flat or c trumpets work better in this case, or does it not matter? Most modern orchestral trumpet parts are WRITTEN as if they were to be played on Bb instruments, but then most players actually PLAY them on C trumpets these days, which is a little odd when you think about it. The players transpose at sight for this. It wouldn't really matter which one he had in his hands before he switched to flugehorn, but I suggest writing the parts transposed Bb, so as to avoid confusion with the transposition. I think in most modern large orchestras you would be better putting the doubles on the parts other than the first part, unless unavoidable. This is the usual procedure in most orchestras I know, so that the first (solo) chair doesn't mess with his chops by switching instruments in the middle of a concert. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
Yes, it would be interesting to find out more about Janacek's available brass. When I went to Moravia to record I was surprised how prominent tenor tubas were in some of the folk bands around there (with an occasional valve trombone along the way). And Wagner tubas are among my favorite exotic sounds. BTW, does any of the brass players here know how orchestra players would feel about which trumpets would be best to alternate with Fluegelhorns? Would b-flat or c trumpets work better in this case, or does it not matter? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
What's the question, Aaron? That the instrument is called bass trumpet? Yes the low Bb and C instrument is always called bass. I and many others have merely observed that it would more logically be called tenor. The Janacek Sinfonietta bass trumpet part (2 in unison) is unusually low. Hard to get a good sound that loud on any bass trumpet I've ever played. Fun to try, though! I would like to know what instruments the composer had available. I can still get arguments over the tenor tuba parts in that work. Even though I am a devoted euphonium player, I think it is clear that those parts should be played on Wagner tubas, since the 3rd and 4th horns drop out when the brass band returns in the finale. I have not seen the new edition of the work, though. The Rite of Spring Eb "bass trumpet" should be called alto. It is a double for the 5th C trumpet. But the part creates another problem, because Stravinsky exceeds the range, going down to the written low F (concert Ab) which is difficult or impossible to reach on an Eb instrument, and very low for a trumpet player indeed. So the part is often played on a Bb bass trumpet by a trombonist, which generally means two players on that part. (Or the 5th trumpet player can play the tutti parts, which are not low, on C trumpet, and a trombonist can switch back and forth for the bass trumpet solos. We did this one weekend on an emergency, when a player went in the hospital an hour before concert time.) RBH Aaron Rabushka wrote: Janacek's bass trumpets in the Sinfonietta, anyone? of the e-flat "bass" trumpet in the Rite of Spring? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
Aaron Rabushka wrote: Janacek's bass trumpets in the Sinfonietta, anyone? of the e-flat "bass" trumpet in the Rite of Spring? Did the Janacek a few years ago, and we used valve trombones for bass trumpets. For the ROS ... Peck-horns, anyone? :) cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
Janacek's bass trumpets in the Sinfonietta, anyone? of the e-flat "bass" trumpet in the Rite of Spring? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] errors in instrument.txt and ensembles.txt now trumpets
It is very easy to get confused about trumpets in F and Eb. Don't forget that a lot of the 19th century music written for the long orchestral valved trumpets in F and Eb is written in the upper octave - so actually, the transposition is the same as todays small F and Eb trumpet and cornet - even if the effective ranges of the instruments are not the same. An exception would be the F alto trumpet of Rimsky-K and the Shostakovich First Symphony, which is actually the same length as the long, orchestral valve F trumpet of the 19th century, but larger bore and mouthpiece, and written in the lower octave. The problem with voice designations "alto" tenor" etc, is that nearly all instruments exceed them. In the case of low trumpets, "alto" works the best for low trumpets in F and Eb. "Tenor" would for the best for low (tenor trombone-range) trumpets in C and Bb. These are commonly called "bass trumpets", but they are nothing of the sort in timbre or range, and this leaves no room below. Roger Bobo used to play a "contrabass trumpet" in an LA Phil quintet years ago - (I never heard it, only saw it listed on recordings) my guess is that was in F - which would normally be a "bass" range. Brass Bands call the little Eb cornet the "soprano cornet" and the Bb just the "cornet." I've seen the "mezzo-soprano" designation given to the Bb instrument, on occasion. Of course, they call the Eb horn the "tenor" and Americans call it an "alto horn." Any reasonable look at the range would say the Brits are closer. Raymond Horton Bass Trombone (the difference here is timbre more so than range) Louisville Orchestra John Howell wrote: At 1:40 PM -0400 6/6/07, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jun 6, 2007, at 8:23 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jun 5, 2007, at 9:37 PM, John Howell wrote: At 11:17 AM -0400 6/5/07, Christopher Smith wrote: I WOULD like to see Trumpet in Eb in the instrument list. When I do orchestra transcriptions from the 19th C, there is a lot of Eb trumpet, and I got caught the first time. But were these Eb alto, same pitch as the British brass band solo Eb cornet, or Eb basso, like the low F trumpet that was also common? High Eb is what I meant, between the piccolo and the Bb in size, like the British Eb cornet. Very common instrument. I wouldn't call that pitch Eb alto, as I would reserve that name for the alto horn transposition. Apologies. I adopted the French horn terminology automatically, simply meaning the upper octave Eb instrument and the lower octave Eb instrument. I do like Andrew's "tenor trumpet" as a much better descriptive term. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
