Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
At 4:29 PM -0400 9/30/09, dhbailey wrote: And I can't think of very many musical situations where you would want some of the musicians to be in one key and others to be in a different key, even if enharmonically equivalent. Au contraire! Writing for a university show ensemble with a 12-piece showband, we always put the music in the right keys for the voices, which often put the alto and bari in multiple sharps. I always crossed over to give them fewer flats rather than more sharps, and never had a problem with it. I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different key signatures, it should definitely be the users' decision, not the program's. Absolutely! But most of that writing was in the days of hand copying, and sometimes my mind refused to cooperate! P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's for advanced musicians who should be equally comfortable playing in flats or sharps. I have to say that my alto and bari players learned to take multiple sharps in stride and sightread them just fine, and these were college students who likely were NOT music majors. They just got used to it. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
At 2:59 PM -0400 9/30/09, Phil Daley wrote: From what I have seen, string instruments are more comfortable playing in sharps. True (although not responsive to the question), but for two very specific reasons. 1. There are more open strings available in sharp keys. You start losing open strings with the 2nd flat, but not until the 3rd sharp. Not so important in classical music, VERY important in bluegrass and traditional Old Time. 2. Playing in 6 flats forces us to sightread in half position, which is cramped and a bit awkward. Playing in 6 sharps lets us sightread in regular 1st position (actually first-and-a-half position), and is more comfortable. They should be exactly equivalent, but for string players they are not. However, rules of thumb have their limitations. Orchestral string players must and do play in any key that's put in front of us. There's a long section in the middle of 1812 that's in 6 flats (and boring as heck!). Trombones are more comfortable playing in flats. Of course. The instruments are built in a flat key, so the 1st position notes are all solid in flat keys up to Fbs. But trombones can play in any key (as can any instrument, give or take bluegrass banjo). Those rules of thumb are valid for beginners, and to a slight extent for intermediate players. It's more a matter of their never seeing extreme keys on the other side than not being able to play them. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre wrote: And advanced musicians also will understand that a Db and a C# is the same during instructions. The number of sharps and flats shall always be kept as low as possible. I agree that the number of sharps and flats shall always be kept as low as possible in principle, but one also has to take into account the number of changes from one key to another key. In the work in question, the modulation is from Cb to Ab -- which only changes 3 of the accidentals in the key signature. If the Cb section were to be written in B, then there would be 9 changes of accidentals (5 sharps to be naturalized plus 4 flats to be added), with some notes which had been sharps becoming flats. So to Klaus's rule I would add the following corollary: While keeping the number of flats and sharps as low as possible, also take into account any key changes and select the keys on either side of the change depending on how many pitches would be affected by the change and keep the affected pitches to a minimum. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Interesting behavior
[mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell From what I have seen, string instruments are more comfortable playing in sharps. True (although not responsive to the question), but for two very specific reasons. 1. There are more open strings available in sharp keys. You start losing open strings with the 2nd flat, but not until the 3rd sharp. Nice observation. Hadn't thought of it that way. Even more true for guitar, on which you lose an open string with the first flat and every one after that down to c flat (Yah! It's an open string!). Also, on a string instrument, you can always sharp a note by going up on the same string while flatting often requires moving to a different string. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
I suspect the A# major triad(s) in my brass quartet gave the players involved a chance to cash in some practive routines that they don't get to redeem very often! ajr At 4:29 PM -0400 9/30/09, dhbailey wrote: And I can't think of very many musical situations where you would want some of the musicians to be in one key and others to be in a different key, even if enharmonically equivalent. Au contraire! Writing for a university show ensemble with a 12-piece showband, we always put the music in the right keys for the voices, which often put the alto and bari in multiple sharps. I always crossed over to give them fewer flats rather than more sharps, and never had a problem with it. I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different key signatures, it should definitely be the users' decision, not the program's. Absolutely! But most of that writing was in the days of hand copying, and sometimes my mind refused to cooperate! P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's for advanced musicians who should be equally comfortable playing in flats or sharps. I have to say that my alto and bari players learned to take multiple sharps in stride and sightread them just fine, and these were college students who likely were NOT music majors. They just got used to it. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Carl Dershem wrote: I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) in the middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B). FinWin2k4 Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the guitar and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones? Very interesting. cd Maybe the programmers thought that guitarists and bassists can't actually read the music so it won't matter? :-) There's no logical reason for that to happen -- what happens if you transpose the guitar and bass parts chromatically? -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Actually it speaks for Final being rational. Klaus --- On Wed, 9/30/09, Carl Dershem ders...@cox.net wrote: From: Carl Dershem ders...@cox.net Subject: [Finale] Interesting behavior To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 7:40 PM I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) in the middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B). FinWin2k4 Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the guitar and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones? Very interesting. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
From what I have seen, string instruments are more comfortable playing in sharps. Trombones are more comfortable playing in flats. At 9/30/2009 01:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) in the middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B). FinWin2k4 Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the guitar and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones? Very interesting. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: {Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Why did my posting get the prefux of {Fraud?} {Disarmed}?
I wouldn’t be able to post if not being a legit member.
My point of view isn’r exotic at all. Except for a very few situations of
modulating to a dominant key or a parallel minor it hardly ever furthers
reading to notate music with more than 6 sharps or 6 flats.
When i played bass trombone in a British style brass band (the only instrument
written in bass clef concert in that type of scoring) I sometimes played in E
major, while the Bb instruments played in written Gb and the Eb instruments in
written Db.
Klaus (no need to sign my full name, as it comes with the mail address)
--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com
Subject: {Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 8:27 PM
Actually it speaks for Final being rational.
Klaus
--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Carl Dershem ders...@cox.net wrote:
From: Carl Dershem ders...@cox.net
Subject: [Finale] Interesting behavior
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 7:40 PM
I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) in the
middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B).
FinWin2k4
Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the guitar
and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones?
Very interesting.
cd
-- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#
http://members.cox.net/dershem
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RE: [SPAM] Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Carl Dershem wrote: I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) in the middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B). FinWin2k4 Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the guitar and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones? Very interesting. cd Maybe the programmers thought that guitarists and bassists can't actually read the music so it won't matter? :-) If they thought this, they were half right. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Well, a few things come to mind. First of all, is this an old file being opened in a newer version of Finale? We know opening older versions is SUPPOSED to be transparent, but in real life... I have stopped using templates made in old versions of Finale because they gave me so much trouble, and never the same problem twice, it seemed. Could independent key sigs be enabled on the guit and bass staves? Never mind if YOU did it, just check. Sometimes these things check themselves. There is an option somewhere to wrap keys; could that be checked? maybe ONLY on those staves? Sometimes I hit the metatool for some behaviour or other, then discover that I was in the Staff Tool, so a weird Staff Style gets assigned instead of what I wanted (this often causes me to make everything a bass clarinet transposition instead of respacing!) Could this have happened? If all else fails, create a new file with all the correct staves in the current version of Finale and copy the file contents over. This often filters out the corruption, if the file is indeed corrupted. Hold on, I just thought of something. Of COURSE guit and bass staves are transposing instruments! In the Staff Attirbutes, click Transposition, and UNcheck Simplify Key! I'm 99% sure that's it. Christopher On Wed Sep 30, at WednesdaySep 30 1:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C- Flat) in the middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B). FinWin2k4 Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the guitar and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones? Very interesting. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Still, that should be the users' decisions and not Finale's. ajr From what I have seen, string instruments are more comfortable playing in sharps. Trombones are more comfortable playing in flats. At 9/30/2009 01:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) in the middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B). FinWin2k4 Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the guitar and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones? Very interesting. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
And I can't think of very many musical situations where you would want some of the musicians to be in one key and others to be in a different key, even if enharmonically equivalent. Stop the rehearsal and say that Db needs to be changed and you'll get the guitarists and bassists scratching their heads and complaining that you don't know what you're talking about 'cause we don't have any stinking Db at all! I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different key signatures, it should definitely be the users' decision, not the program's. David H. Bailey P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's for advanced musicians who should be equally comfortable playing in flats or sharps. arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: Still, that should be the users' decisions and not Finale's. ajr -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Guitar and bass are transposing instruments. I'm sure that if you look at the transposition options in the staff attributes, you'll find that simplify key is checked. Michael On 30 Sep 2009, at 19:40, Carl Dershem wrote: I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C- Flat) in the middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B). FinWin2k4 Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the guitar and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones? Very interesting. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Yeah, it's just weird that if you choose a concert key of Cb (which IS perfectly standard; no double flats or anything. I remember practicing études in that key) then it gets changed ONLY on the octave transposing instruments like guit and bass by default. Christopher On Wed Sep 30, at WednesdaySep 30 5:16 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Simplify Key is designed to avoid unwieldy, nonstandard keys (like, ahem, Cb major, which IMO you *really* ought to reconsider) on transposing instruments. In the vast majority of cases, this is what you want. If a piece is in F# major, the clarinets should be written in Ab -- not G#! Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY On 30 Sep 2009, at 4:56 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: Hold on, I just thought of something. Of COURSE guit and bass staves are transposing instruments! In the Staff Attirbutes, click Transposition, and UNcheck Simplify Key! I'm 99% sure that's it. Argh. Yes, that was it. Who put that in there, and why? What a pain! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Darcy James Argue wrote: Simplify Key is designed to avoid unwieldy, nonstandard keys (like, ahem, Cb major, which IMO you *really* ought to reconsider) on transposing instruments. In the vast majority of cases, this is what you want. If a piece is in F# major, the clarinets should be written in Ab -- not G#! Cheers, - Darcy Not my choice - the piece in question goes through numerous keys, which the composer chose*. I guess this is what you get for letting Canadians write jazz. ; Carl *Bb, to G, to Cb, to Ab, to G, to Ab, to C. At least the drum part is readable. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
This is an issue I'd certainly bring up with the composer, i.e, Are you *sure* you absolutely need this passage written in Cb? Because it's going to be a whole lot easier to read in B. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY On 30 Sep 2009, at 5:58 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Simplify Key is designed to avoid unwieldy, nonstandard keys (like, ahem, Cb major, which IMO you *really* ought to reconsider) on transposing instruments. In the vast majority of cases, this is what you want. If a piece is in F# major, the clarinets should be written in Ab -- not G#! Cheers, - Darcy Not my choice - the piece in question goes through numerous keys, which the composer chose*. I guess this is what you get for letting Canadians write jazz. ; Carl *Bb, to G, to Cb, to Ab, to G, to Ab, to C. At least the drum part is readable. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
In Carl's case, Cb is the only key that needs simplifying. When simplify is checked, Finale wraps anything more than six sharps or six flats. Assuming standard bigband instrumentation, you've got only Bb and Cb instruments, and therefore your transposed keys are Ab and Db, both standard keys that don't need simplifying. If he actually put the chart in B, then checking simplify key would avoid having the alto saxes in G# and the tenor saxes and trumpets in C#. Since he's got it in Cb, the transposed-key instruments don't need simplifying, but the concert-key instruments (guitar and bass) do! Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY On 30 Sep 2009, at 5:42 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Yeah, it's just weird that if you choose a concert key of Cb (which IS perfectly standard; no double flats or anything. I remember practicing études in that key) then it gets changed ONLY on the octave transposing instruments like guit and bass by default. Christopher On Wed Sep 30, at WednesdaySep 30 5:16 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Simplify Key is designed to avoid unwieldy, nonstandard keys (like, ahem, Cb major, which IMO you *really* ought to reconsider) on transposing instruments. In the vast majority of cases, this is what you want. If a piece is in F# major, the clarinets should be written in Ab -- not G#! Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY On 30 Sep 2009, at 4:56 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: Hold on, I just thought of something. Of COURSE guit and bass staves are transposing instruments! In the Staff Attirbutes, click Transposition, and UNcheck Simplify Key! I'm 99% sure that's it. Argh. Yes, that was it. Who put that in there, and why? What a pain! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Darcy James Argue wrote: Should have been Bb and *Eb* instruments, obviously. Cheers, - Darcy Well, except for the Bari player, who is always a little off anyway. ; cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
And advanced musicians also will understand that a Db and a C# is the same during instructions. The number of sharps and flats shall always be kept as low as possible. Klaus --- On Wed, 9/30/09, dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: From: dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com Subject: Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 10:29 PM And I can't think of very many musical situations where you would want some of the musicians to be in one key and others to be in a different key, even if enharmonically equivalent. Stop the rehearsal and say that Db needs to be changed and you'll get the guitarists and bassists scratching their heads and complaining that you don't know what you're talking about 'cause we don't have any stinking Db at all! I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different key signatures, it should definitely be the users' decision, not the program's. David H. Bailey P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's for advanced musicians who should be equally comfortable playing in flats or sharps. arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: Still, that should be the users' decisions and not Finale's. ajr -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre wrote: And advanced musicians also will understand that a Db and a C# is the same during instructions. The number of sharps and flats shall always be kept as low as possible. Klaus I always teach my private students that, for example, Gb should be played/thought as one natural instead of six flats. It's much easier. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
