Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
Hi Christopher, I just checked and Gardner Read also agrees. Not that I don't trust you. :) I used to notate tremelos this way until a question came up in a session a few years back and the guidelines I mentioned earlier were offered to me. Thanks for the clarification. DH On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: With total respect for you and your string-playing colleagues, but I think you are mistaken according to traditional practice. Kurt Stone says that from 2 (in fast tempos) to 4 (in slow tempos) slashes can be used to convey an unmeasured tremolo, and while he doesn't say it in text, he has some very specific examples on beamed notes where the beam takes the place of one of the slashes (for 8ths) or for TWO of the slashes (sixteenths). pp 148-149 in my edition. In the Heusenstamm, p 56 he absolutely gives several examples where the beams or flags take the place of the slashes. He also says to use the word trem or tremolo to avoid confusion with a measured tremolo. Clinton Roemer agrees with Kurt Stone about the variable numbers of slashes (strophes he calls them) and gives examples where it is clear that the beams are counted. Ross does not mention it at all. Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 4:23 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi Christopher, String players have told me two slashes on an 8th (one on a 16th, etc.) indicate a measured tremelo, and three slashes indicate unmeasured. In slower tempos, with more beams, I suppose the part would start looking pretty busy so I guess you could write unmeasured on the part. DH On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: Strictly speaking, the tremolo on eighth notes is supposed to be TWO slashes (the beam is the first slash), so I haven't run into this problem. I also use the Bill Duncan single, double and triple slashes, which position very well for me (except on stems that have been shortened because of multiple layers, but that is par for the course.) Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 12:28 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi all, Does anyone have a positioning setting for a 3-slash tremelo, (in evpus if convenient) that works for both stemmed and non-stemmed notes? I've always used two separate articulations and meta assignments and was just wondering if it's possible to eliminate a few keystrokes. Thanks in advance. Don Hart ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
On 21-Aug-10, at 21-Aug-10 2:13 AM, Don Hart wrote: Hi Christopher, I just checked and Gardner Read also agrees. Not that I don't trust you. :) Hey man, sometimes I don't even trust myself! Not a problem. I used to notate tremelos this way until a question came up in a session a few years back and the guidelines I mentioned earlier were offered to me. Thanks for the clarification. My pleasure. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
My experience is more limited than others, but I've read a lot of string music. Three slashes will ALWAYS get you an unmeasured tremolo at any speed on any note value. One slash will always get you double the notes notated (i.e. single-slashed quarter means 2 8ths, etc.). I have never seen 4 slashes, and would treat it as a mistake that was meant to be three. But 2 slashes is ambiguous, and not all copysists seem to agree on what 2 slashes mean, or on whether the beam counts as a slash. THOSE will get you into trouble, and I would strongly recommend writing out a few exemplars before going to the slash notation. I know that theorists like to deal in complete, logical systems, but much in music is neither complete nor logical, and this shorthand notation is one of those things. Example: we played the Schubert unfinished symphony last spring. In the viola part, in exactly parallel passages, sometimes there were notes with 3 slashes and sometimes with only 2. And sometimes it was inconsistent within the same passage! Which means that either Schubert, his original publisher, or the engraver of the edition we played from either didn't understand the theoretical rules or was sloppy in his notation! I've also never seen the words tremolo or trem in music. When it is notated clearly there is never any ambiguity, but it's precisely when you leave the player wondering whether the beams count as a slash (which is quite illogical when you stop to think about it--if the notes were written with individual flags rather than beams the question wouldn't even come up, would it?) that you create ambiguity that needs to be clarified by writing out at least the first pattern. This is a situation in which I'd suggest that appealing to authority will simply show that different composers have done things differently. John At 5:40 PM -0400 8/20/10, Christopher Smith wrote: With total respect for you and your string-playing colleagues, but I think you are mistaken according to traditional practice. Kurt Stone says that from 2 (in fast tempos) to 4 (in slow tempos) slashes can be used to convey an unmeasured tremolo, and while he doesn't say it in text, he has some very specific examples on beamed notes where the beam takes the place of one of the slashes (for 8ths) or for TWO of the slashes (sixteenths). pp 148-149 in my edition. In the Heusenstamm, p 56 he absolutely gives several examples where the beams or flags take the place of the slashes. He also says to use the word trem or tremolo to avoid confusion with a measured tremolo. Clinton Roemer agrees with Kurt Stone about the variable numbers of slashes (strophes he calls them) and gives examples where it is clear that the beams are counted. Ross does not mention it at all. Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 4:23 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi Christopher, String players have told me two slashes on an 8th (one on a 16th, etc.) indicate a measured tremelo, and three slashes indicate unmeasured. In slower tempos, with more beams, I suppose the part would start looking pretty busy so I guess you could write unmeasured on the part. DH On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: Strictly speaking, the tremolo on eighth notes is supposed to be TWO slashes (the beam is the first slash), so I haven't run into this problem. I also use the Bill Duncan single, double and triple slashes, which position very well for me (except on stems that have been shortened because of multiple layers, but that is par for the course.) Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 12:28 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi all, Does anyone have a positioning setting for a 3-slash tremelo, (in evpus if convenient) that works for both stemmed and non-stemmed notes? I've always used two separate articulations and meta assignments and was just wondering if it's possible to eliminate a few keystrokes. Thanks in advance. Don Hart ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
not possible, since the centre point is right / centre of the notehead according to context, you will have to set a separate tremolo for whole notes. the default positioning is end of stem, i adjusted all mine to be positioned from the notehead, measn less fussing in the end, and tremolo positioning not affected if you have to adjust stem length for any reason (like to avoid collision weith the tremolo ;-) ) my maestro settings (artic is centred) are (vertical and then the numbers in the dialogue) in EVPUs: 3-bar -48 16 -16 -15 -44 2-bar -48 16 -9 -15 -47 works with my line / stem thicknesses, you may have to tweak. Does anyone have a positioning setting for a 3-slash tremelo, (in evpus if convenient) that works for both stemmed and non-stemmed notes? I've always used two separate articulations and meta assignments and was just wondering if it's possible to eliminate a few keystrokes. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
Strictly speaking, the tremolo on eighth notes is supposed to be TWO slashes (the beam is the first slash), so I haven't run into this problem. I also use the Bill Duncan single, double and triple slashes, which position very well for me (except on stems that have been shortened because of multiple layers, but that is par for the course.) Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 12:28 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi all, Does anyone have a positioning setting for a 3-slash tremelo, (in evpus if convenient) that works for both stemmed and non-stemmed notes? I've always used two separate articulations and meta assignments and was just wondering if it's possible to eliminate a few keystrokes. Thanks in advance. Don Hart ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
Sorry, I misread stemmed for beamed. Chalk it up to senior brain. But I still have Bill Duncan's Articulations font that has a separate 3-slash tremolo for whole notes that is slightly wider. Saves a lot of problems. Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 12:50 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Strictly speaking, the tremolo on eighth notes is supposed to be TWO slashes (the beam is the first slash), so I haven't run into this problem. I also use the Bill Duncan single, double and triple slashes, which position very well for me (except on stems that have been shortened because of multiple layers, but that is par for the course.) Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 12:28 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi all, Does anyone have a positioning setting for a 3-slash tremelo, (in evpus if convenient) that works for both stemmed and non-stemmed notes? I've always used two separate articulations and meta assignments and was just wondering if it's possible to eliminate a few keystrokes. Thanks in advance. Don Hart ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
Thanks, Jef. Basically what I've been doing, but I'll check out your numbers and see how everything looks. I didn't think it could be boiled down to using one tremelo but all of a sudden it seemed like a good idea to ask here. BTW, where do you select positioning from the notehead? I never realized that was an option. DH On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:37 AM, SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com wrote: not possible, since the centre point is right / centre of the notehead according to context, you will have to set a separate tremolo for whole notes. the default positioning is end of stem, i adjusted all mine to be positioned from the notehead, measn less fussing in the end, and tremolo positioning not affected if you have to adjust stem length for any reason (like to avoid collision weith the tremolo ;-) ) my maestro settings (artic is centred) are (vertical and then the numbers in the dialogue) in EVPUs: 3-bar -48 16 -16 -15 -44 2-bar -48 16 -9 -15 -47 works with my line / stem thicknesses, you may have to tweak. Does anyone have a positioning setting for a 3-slash tremelo, (in evpus if convenient) that works for both stemmed and non-stemmed notes? I've always used two separate articulations and meta assignments and was just wondering if it's possible to eliminate a few keystrokes. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
BTW, where do you select positioning from the notehead? bottom right section of dialogue, Position: Always on Note Side ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
Hi Christopher, String players have told me two slashes on an 8th (one on a 16th, etc.) indicate a measured tremelo, and three slashes indicate unmeasured. In slower tempos, with more beams, I suppose the part would start looking pretty busy so I guess you could write unmeasured on the part. DH On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: Strictly speaking, the tremolo on eighth notes is supposed to be TWO slashes (the beam is the first slash), so I haven't run into this problem. I also use the Bill Duncan single, double and triple slashes, which position very well for me (except on stems that have been shortened because of multiple layers, but that is par for the course.) Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 12:28 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi all, Does anyone have a positioning setting for a 3-slash tremelo, (in evpus if convenient) that works for both stemmed and non-stemmed notes? I've always used two separate articulations and meta assignments and was just wondering if it's possible to eliminate a few keystrokes. Thanks in advance. Don Hart ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
With total respect for you and your string-playing colleagues, but I think you are mistaken according to traditional practice. Kurt Stone says that from 2 (in fast tempos) to 4 (in slow tempos) slashes can be used to convey an unmeasured tremolo, and while he doesn't say it in text, he has some very specific examples on beamed notes where the beam takes the place of one of the slashes (for 8ths) or for TWO of the slashes (sixteenths). pp 148-149 in my edition. In the Heusenstamm, p 56 he absolutely gives several examples where the beams or flags take the place of the slashes. He also says to use the word trem or tremolo to avoid confusion with a measured tremolo. Clinton Roemer agrees with Kurt Stone about the variable numbers of slashes (strophes he calls them) and gives examples where it is clear that the beams are counted. Ross does not mention it at all. Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 4:23 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi Christopher, String players have told me two slashes on an 8th (one on a 16th, etc.) indicate a measured tremelo, and three slashes indicate unmeasured. In slower tempos, with more beams, I suppose the part would start looking pretty busy so I guess you could write unmeasured on the part. DH On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: Strictly speaking, the tremolo on eighth notes is supposed to be TWO slashes (the beam is the first slash), so I haven't run into this problem. I also use the Bill Duncan single, double and triple slashes, which position very well for me (except on stems that have been shortened because of multiple layers, but that is par for the course.) Christopher On Fri Aug 20, at FridayAug 20 12:28 PM, Don Hart wrote: Hi all, Does anyone have a positioning setting for a 3-slash tremelo, (in evpus if convenient) that works for both stemmed and non-stemmed notes? I've always used two separate articulations and meta assignments and was just wondering if it's possible to eliminate a few keystrokes. Thanks in advance. Don Hart ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] tremelo positioning
At 3:23 PM -0500 8/20/10, Don Hart wrote: Hi Christopher, String players have told me two slashes on an 8th (one on a 16th, etc.) indicate a measured tremelo, and three slashes indicate unmeasured. In slower tempos, with more beams, I suppose the part would start looking pretty busy so I guess you could write unmeasured on the part. The terminology can get confusing. Rather than calling it a measured tremolo, I prefer to think of it as subdivided notes. A tremolo by definition IS unmeasured, isn't it? (Although Monteverdi's famous tremolos were indeed measured and written out note by note, but then so were trills in the early 17th century.) And of course strings can play both a bowed (or plectrum) tremolo and a fingered tremolo, which Roemer calls tremolando. Most other instruments cannot play the former, except for a percussion roll (which just to confuse things is often written as a trill in early timp parts!). John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
