[Fink-users] How to handle Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems

2012-02-24 Thread Peter Dyballa
Hello!

I try to prepare the INFO and PATCH files for ImageMagick-6.7.5-6. The  
builds go fine until this:

- Depends line is: imagemagick2-shlibs (= 6.7.5.6-1), lcms-shlibs (=  
1.11-1), libtiff-shlibs (= 3.6.1-3), libjasper.1-shlibs (=  
1.900.1-1), libpng14-shlibs, libdjvulibre21-shlibs (= 3.5.21-1003),  
libjpeg8-shlibs, fontconfig2-shlibs (= 2.4.1-1), expat1-shlibs (=  
2.0.0-1), bzip2-shlibs (= 1.0.2-2), libxml2-shlibs (= 2.6.30-1),  
libiconv (= 1.11-1), freetype219-shlibs (= 2.3.5-1), libjbig-shlibs,  
ghostscript | ghostscript, openexr, libwmf-shlibs (= 0.2.8.4-2), x11- 
shlibs, darwin (= 9-1)

Writing control file...
Validating .deb dir /sw/src/fink.build/root-imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1...
Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems
Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/
Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/ChangeLog
Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/LICENSE
Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/NEWS.txt
Removing runtime build-lock...
Removing build-lock package...

The assumption that the build is happening on a case-insensitive  
filesystem (HFS+) is wrong, it is happening on HFSX. And there are no  
other files in the archive with names similar to those mentioned which  
just use the same letters but in a diferent case. So really no danger  
of collisions.

This happens on my PPC based system with Mac OS X 10.5.8. On my intel  
based system with Mac OS X 10.6.8 and simple HFS+ the message is not  
shown (and I think the INFO files are equal).

--
Greetings

   Pete

Hard Disk, n.:
A device that allows users to delete vast quantities of data with  
simple mnemonic commands.


--
Virtualization  Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing 
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
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Re: [Fink-users] MediaTomb 0.12.1-1

2012-02-24 Thread Alexander K. Hansen

On 2/24/2012 4:04 AM, Bill HG wrote:

Hi
thanks for the prompt reply...

So if I understand you well, there is no way to force fink to use 
another functionality sub-package in building an app?


How about disabling the use of the functionality, i.e. passing an 
argument like --disable-library to fink install package


like

fink install package --disable-library?

I will try it... it will be great if I can get it to work like this:

fink install mediatomb --disable-libmp4v2

as libmp4v2 can be used from within ffmpeg (and external transcoding) 
which builds well...


Thanks

Billy

theNabster Billy :)

That's not supported.

The prescription I gave you in the prior message applies to _any_ 
changes you would want to make.


AKH
--
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Re: [Fink-users] How to handle Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems

2012-02-24 Thread Alexander K. Hansen
On 2/24/2012 7:52 AM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
 Hello!

 I try to prepare the INFO and PATCH files for ImageMagick-6.7.5-6. The
 builds go fine until this:

   - Depends line is: imagemagick2-shlibs (= 6.7.5.6-1), lcms-shlibs (=
 1.11-1), libtiff-shlibs (= 3.6.1-3), libjasper.1-shlibs (=
 1.900.1-1), libpng14-shlibs, libdjvulibre21-shlibs (= 3.5.21-1003),
 libjpeg8-shlibs, fontconfig2-shlibs (= 2.4.1-1), expat1-shlibs (=
 2.0.0-1), bzip2-shlibs (= 1.0.2-2), libxml2-shlibs (= 2.6.30-1),
 libiconv (= 1.11-1), freetype219-shlibs (= 2.3.5-1), libjbig-shlibs,
 ghostscript | ghostscript, openexr, libwmf-shlibs (= 0.2.8.4-2), x11-
 shlibs, darwin (= 9-1)
   
   Writing control file...
   Validating .deb dir /sw/src/fink.build/root-imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1...
   Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/ChangeLog
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/LICENSE
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/NEWS.txt
   Removing runtime build-lock...
   Removing build-lock package...

 The assumption that the build is happening on a case-insensitive
 filesystem (HFS+) is wrong, it is happening on HFSX. And there are no
 other files in the archive with names similar to those mentioned which
 just use the same letters but in a diferent case. So really no danger
 of collisions.

 This happens on my PPC based system with Mac OS X 10.5.8. On my intel
 based system with Mac OS X 10.6.8 and simple HFS+ the message is not
 shown (and I think the INFO files are equal).

 --
 Greetings

 Pete

 Hard Disk, n.:
   A device that allows users to delete vast quantities of data with
 simple mnemonic commands.


No.

The message isn't about the system where you're building the package 
currently.  What is telling you is that users will get different 
installed file content on HFSX than HFS+, because on the latter 
filesystem some files will be overwritten.

AKH

--
Virtualization  Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing 
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
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Re: [Fink-users] How to handle Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems

2012-02-24 Thread Peter Dyballa

Am 24.2.2012 um 16:23 schrieb Alexander K. Hansen:

 The message isn't about the system where you're building the package 
 currently.  What is telling you is that users will get different installed 
 file content on HFSX than HFS+, because on the latter filesystem some files 
 will be overwritten.

Isn't this normal behaviour when a new software release is installed? So I 
presume this comes up because in maintainer mode nothing is deleted! So I'll 
perform that next.

--
Greetings

  Pete

Make it simple, as simple as possible but no simpler.
– Albert Einstein


--
Virtualization  Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing 
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
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Re: [Fink-users] MediaTomb 0.12.1-1

2012-02-24 Thread Bill HG

Hi
thanks for the prompt reply...

So if I understand you well, there is no way to force fink to use another 
functionality sub-package in building an app?

How about disabling the use of the functionality, i.e. passing an argument like 
--disable-library to fink install package

like

fink install package --disable-library?

I will try it... it will be great if I can get it to work like this:

fink install mediatomb --disable-libmp4v2

as libmp4v2 can be used from within ffmpeg (and external transcoding) which 
builds well... 

Thanks

Billy 

theNabster Billy :)

Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 19:15:12 -0700
From: alexanderk.han...@gmail.com
To: gr...@hotmail.com
CC: fink-users@lists.sourceforge.net; mediat...@fink.raccoonfink.com
Subject: Re: [Fink-users] MediaTomb 0.12.1-1


  



  
  
On 2/23/2012 2:13 PM, Bill HG wrote:

  
  
Hi...

The compilation chokes on libmp4v2, though I got it to work
building it somewhere else by using the mp4v2 trunk:
mp4v2-trunk-r479.tar.bz2, however with that build attempt I
could not get libjs to build, I had to disable it, but got
ffmegthumbnailer instead...



Anyways, does not build on fink...



How can I force mp4v2-trunk-r479.tar.bz2 to be used instead of
the one fink uses, which I assume is: mp4v2-1.9.1.tar.bz2?

Cheers



theNabster Billy :)



output:

g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I.. -I../tombupnp/upnp/inc  
-DXP_UNIX=1 -I/sw/include -I../src -I../tombupnp/ixml/inc
-I../tombupnp/threadutil/inc -I../tombupnp/upnp/inc -I..  
-I/sw/include/js -I/sw/include/taglib   -D_THREAD_SAFE
-I/sw/include-g -O2  -c -o libmediatomb_a-libmp4v2_handler.o
`test -f '../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc' || echo
'./'`../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc: In function 'void
addMetaField(metadata_fields_t, void*,
zmm::RefCdsItem)':

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:77: error:
'MP4GetMetadataName' was not declared in this scope

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:80: error:
'MP4GetMetadataArtist' was not declared in this scope

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:83: error:
'MP4GetMetadataAlbum' was not declared in this scope

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:86: error:
'MP4GetMetadataYear' was not declared in this scope

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:98: error:
'MP4GetMetadataGenre' was not declared in this scope

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:101: error:
'MP4GetMetadataComment' was not declared in this scope

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:104: error:
'MP4GetMetadataTrack' was not declared in this scope

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc: In member function 'virtual
void LibMP4V2Handler::fillMetadata(zmm::RefCdsItem)':

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:200: error:
'MP4GetMetadataCoverArt' was not declared in this scope

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc: In member function 'virtual
zmm::RefIOHandler
LibMP4V2Handler::serveContent(zmm::RefCdsItem, int,
off_t*)':

../src/metadata/libmp4v2_handler.cc:258: error:
'MP4GetMetadataCoverArt' was not declared in this scope

make[2]: *** [libmediatomb_a-libmp4v2_handler.o] Error 1

make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1

make: *** [all] Error 2

### execution of make failed, exit code 2

Removing runtime build-lock...

Removing build-lock package...

/sw/bin/dpkg-lockwait -r fink-buildlock-mediatomb-0.12.1-1

(Reading database ... 23205 files and directories currently
installed.)

Removing fink-buildlock-mediatomb-0.12.1-1 ...

Failed: phase compiling: mediatomb-0.12.1-1 failed



Package manager version: 0.32.3

Distribution version: selfupdate-rsync Thu Feb 23 18:30:22 2012,
10.5, powerpc

Trees: local/main stable/main stable/crypto unstable/main
unstable/crypto

Xcode: 3.1.4

Max. Fink build jobs:  1



  
  


Fink doesn't support any customization other than through editing
the package description file.  



Use fink dumpinfo -finfofile mediatomb to get that information.



The recommended method to do this customization is detailed at

http://finkers.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/creating-local-packages/



And our packaging manual may help you:

 http://www.finkproject.org/doc/packaging/index.php?phpLang=en






  --
Virtualization  Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud 

Re: [Fink-users] How to handle Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems

2012-02-24 Thread Alexander Hansen
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Peter Dyballa peter_dyba...@freenet.de wrote:

 Am 24.2.2012 um 16:23 schrieb Alexander K. Hansen:

 The message isn't about the system where you're building the package 
 currently.  What is telling you is that users will get different installed 
 file content on HFSX than HFS+, because on the latter filesystem some files 
 will be overwritten.

 Isn't this normal behaviour when a new software release is installed? So I 
 presume this comes up because in maintainer mode nothing is deleted! So I'll 
 perform that next.

 --
 Greetings

  Pete

 Make it simple, as simple as possible but no simpler.
                                – Albert Einstein



No.  I mean that files from this package will overwrite other files
from THIS package on HFS+.

-- 
Alexander K. Hansen
akh AT finkproject DOT org
Fink User Liaison and Documenter

--
Virtualization  Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
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Re: [Fink-users] How to handle Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems

2012-02-24 Thread Peter Dyballa

Am 24.02.2012 um 16:48 schrieb Alexander Hansen:

 No.  I mean that files from this package will overwrite other files
 from THIS package on HFS+.


I think I understand now! ImageMagick consists (or will consist) of:

(i) imagemagick 6.7.5.6-1   Image manipulation tools
  p imagemagick-nox [virtual package]
imagemagick-nox2-dev6.7.5.6-1   Image manipulation tools
(i) imagemagick2-dev6.7.5.6-1   Image manipulation tools
(i) imagemagick2-shlibs 6.7.5.6-1   Image manipulation tools
(i) imagemagick2-svg6.7.5.6-1   Image manipulation tools
Either four or two (three?) packages (when -nox) will be installed and  
their INFO files say that

   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/ChangeLog
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/LICENSE
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/NEWS.txt

are part of more than one package in each of these two sets. Is this  
the meaning of the message? And do I need to put the three offending  
files just into one lead package of the two sets?

--
Greetings

   Pete

The wise man said: Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to  
their level and beat you with experience.





--
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Re: [Fink-users] How to handle Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems

2012-02-24 Thread Peter Dyballa

Am 24.2.2012 um 16:48 schrieb Alexander Hansen:

 I mean that files from this package will overwrite other files
 from THIS package on HFS+.

Why do I get no warning when I produce the package(s) on an HFS+ file system? 
Will the files of exactly the same name not be overwritten? Or does it depend 
of the byte order in the CPUs: HFSX with PPC vs. HFS+ with intel? BTW, both use 
only 16 bits.

--
Greetings

  Pete

No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the wind. 
– First Law of Bicycling


--
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Re: [Fink-users] How to handle

2012-02-24 Thread Daniel Macks
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 18:25:50 +0100, Peter Dyballa 
peter_dyba...@freenet.de wrote:

 Am 24.2.2012 um 16:48 schrieb Alexander Hansen:

  I mean that files from this package will overwrite other files
  from THIS package on HFS+. 

 Why do I get no warning when I produce the package(s) on an HFS+ file 
 system? Will the files of exactly the same name not be overwritten? 
 Or does it depend of the byte order in the CPUs: HFSX with PPC vs. 
 HFS+ with intel? BTW, both use only 16 bits. 

When you build on a case-insensitive FS, creating a file Foo when a 
file foo already exists simply overwrites the previous one. I'm not 
sure which case is retained in the directory entry (but of course it 
doesn't matter because you can still 'cat foo' and 'cat Foo' and get 
the same one actual file's contents regardless). When you build on a 
case-sensitive FS, you get two separate files Foo and foo. If you 
have a package that is relying on Foo and foo being different (say c vs 
c++, or a file vs a directory of that file's support files), you are 
hopelessly broken on case-insensitive. And on case-sensitive, you are 
fine. But if you then take that .deb that was generated on 
case-sensitive and install it on a case-insensitive machine, you are 
broken. 

So dpkg (and maybe some other parts of the fink toolchain) have some 
case-sensitivity checks and/or behave in some case-insensitive ways 
even on case-sensisitve systems. This helps prevent a case-sensitive 
maintainer from creating a package that will be broken on a 
case-insensitive user, even though he would have no symptoms himself of 
the breakage. That's one of fink's Prime Directives--builds and works 
the same for everyone (even in ways you never thought would be a 
difference or problem, and is the reason for most of the policies and 
validator and other sanity checks. 

dan

  --
Daniel Macks
dma...@netspace.org



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Re: [Fink-users] How to handle

2012-02-24 Thread Peter Dyballa

Am 24.2.2012 um 19:13 schrieb Daniel Macks:

 On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 18:25:50 +0100, Peter Dyballa peter_dyba...@freenet.de 
 wrote:
 
 Am 24.2.2012 um 16:48 schrieb Alexander Hansen:
 
  I mean that files from this package will overwrite other files
  from THIS package on HFS+. 
 Why do I get no warning when I produce the package(s) on an HFS+ file 
 system? Will the files of exactly the same name not be overwritten? Or does 
 it depend of the byte order in the CPUs: HFSX with PPC vs. HFS+ with intel? 
 BTW, both use only 16 bits. 
 
 When you build on a case-insensitive FS, creating a file Foo when a file 
 foo already exists simply overwrites the previous one.

Right! Such a case existed a long time with the now XOrg server which mixed 
binaries like xclient with APP files like XClient in the same directory.

 When you build on a case-sensitive FS, you get two separate files Foo and 
 foo.

Therefore I've chosen HFSX, an UNIX like instead of some Apple or MS file 
system – particularly when you're German and have to use words (and names) 
starting with upper or lower case characters it's very nice you can use on your 
computer all 52 ASCII and some more Latin characters.

 If you have a package that is relying on Foo and foo being different (say c 
 vs c++, or a file vs a directory of that file's support files), you are 
 hopelessly broken on case-insensitive. And on case-sensitive, you are fine.

That's clear. Files can get overwritten (which happens with MacPorts).

 But if you then take that .deb that was generated on case-sensitive and 
 install it on a case-insensitive machine, you are broken. 

Exactly.

 So dpkg (and maybe some other parts of the fink toolchain) have some 
 case-sensitivity checks and/or behave in some case-insensitive ways even on 
 case-sensisitve systems. This helps prevent a case-sensitive maintainer from 
 creating a package that will be broken on a case-insensitive user, even 
 though he would have no symptoms himself of the breakage. That's one of 
 fink's Prime Directives--builds and works the same for everyone (even in 
 ways you never thought would be a difference or problem, and is the reason 
 for most of the policies and validator and other sanity checks.

But there are no such files that could produce a problem.

The original archive, ImageMagick-6.7.5-6.tar.xz, has these files:

pete 120 /\  gtar vtf /sw/src/ImageMagick-6.7.5-6.tar.xz | egrep -i 
'ChangeLog|LICENSE|NEWS.txt'
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20 58627 2011-02-12 18:02 
ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/Magick++/ChangeLog
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20  1364 2009-09-05 23:47 
ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/Magick++/LICENSE
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20192100 2012-02-13 16:51 ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/ChangeLog
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20 14005 2010-11-22 00:49 
ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/wand/ChangeLog
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20  4609 2011-12-26 03:04 
ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/PerlMagick/Changelog
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20135983 2009-09-05 23:47 
ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/www/Magick++/ChangeLog.html
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20 25843 2012-02-13 16:56 
ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/www/license.html
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20226353 2012-02-13 16:56 
ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/www/changelog.html
-rw-rw-r-- 20/2022 2009-09-05 23:47 ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/NEWS.txt
-rw-rw-r-- 20/20 12446 2011-12-19 02:54 ImageMagick-6.7.5-6/LICENSE

I see no reason to complain that way:

   Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/ChangeLog
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/LICENSE
   Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/NEWS.txt

The INFO files have:

/sw/fink/10.4/stable/main/finkinfo/graphics/imagemagick.info:136:  DocFiles: 
LICENSE README.txt ChangeLog NEWS.txt
/sw/fink/10.4/stable/main/finkinfo/graphics/imagemagick.info:145: DocFiles: 
LICENSE README.txt ChangeLog NEWS.txt
/sw/fink/10.4/stable/main/finkinfo/graphics/imagemagick.info:161: DocFiles: 
LICENSE README.txt ChangeLog NEWS.txt
/sw/fink/10.4/stable/main/finkinfo/graphics/imagemagick.info:163:DocFiles: 
LICENSE README.txt ChangeLog NEWS.txt
/sw/fink/10.4/stable/main/finkinfo/graphics/imagemagick.info:164:License: BSD
/sw/fink/10.4/local/main/finkinfo/imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1.info:137:  DocFiles: 
LICENSE README.txt ChangeLog NEWS.txt
/sw/fink/10.4/local/main/finkinfo/imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1.info:146: DocFiles: 
LICENSE README.txt ChangeLog NEWS.txt
/sw/fink/10.4/local/main/finkinfo/imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1.info:162: DocFiles: 
LICENSE README.txt ChangeLog NEWS.txt
/sw/fink/10.4/local/main/finkinfo/imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1.info:164:DocFiles: 
LICENSE README.txt ChangeLog NEWS.txt
/sw/fink/10.4/local/main/finkinfo/imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1.info:165:License: BSD

In the file system I have:

pete 124 /\ find /sw/src/fink.build/imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1/ImageMagick-6.7.5-6 
/sw/src/fink.build/root-imagemagick-*6.7.5.6-1 -type f -exec ls -lgo {} \; | 
egrep -i 'LICENSE|README|ChangeLog|News'

Re: [Fink-users] How to handle

2012-02-24 Thread Martin Costabel
On 24/02/12 21:08, Peter Dyballa wrote:
[]
 -rw-r--r--  1   192100 24 Feb 19:47 
 /sw/src/fink.build/root-imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1/sw/share/doc/ImageMagick/ChangeLog
 -rw-r--r--  112446 24 Feb 19:47 
 /sw/src/fink.build/root-imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1/sw/share/doc/ImageMagick/LICENSE
 -rw-r--r--  1   22 24 Feb 19:47 
 /sw/src/fink.build/root-imagemagick-6.7.5.6-1/sw/share/doc/ImageMagick/NEWS.txt

I think the problem is with the directory name 
/sw/share/doc/ImageMagick/ vs. /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/.

The latter is created automatically if you have doc files for a package 
named imagemagick (and package names are always lowercase in Fink). 
Where does /sw/share/doc/ImageMagick/ come from? It shouldn't exist.

-- 
Martin


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Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing 
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Re: [Fink-users] How to handle Error: Pathname collision on case-insensitive filesystems

2012-02-24 Thread Alexander K. Hansen
On 2/24/2012 9:14 AM, Peter Dyballa wrote:

 Am 24.02.2012 um 16:48 schrieb Alexander Hansen:

 No.  I mean that files from this package will overwrite other files
 from THIS package on HFS+.


 I think I understand now! ImageMagick consists (or will consist) of:

 (i)imagemagick6.7.5.6-1Image manipulation tools
  p imagemagick-nox[virtual package]
imagemagick-nox2-dev6.7.5.6-1Image manipulation tools
 (i)imagemagick2-dev6.7.5.6-1Image manipulation tools
 (i)imagemagick2-shlibs6.7.5.6-1Image manipulation tools
 (i)imagemagick2-svg6.7.5.6-1Image manipulation tools
 Either four or two (three?) packages (when -nox) will be installed and 
 their INFO files say that

 Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/ChangeLog
 Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/LICENSE
 Offending file: /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/NEWS.txt

 are part of more than one package in each of these two sets. Is this 
 the meaning of the message?
No.  That would be a completely separate error which does _not_ mention 
the case.  And it would show up when you install the packages.

In Splitoffs it's quite common to have the same DocFiles as the main 
package--they don't go into the same directory, however.  In this case 
it'd be e.g. /sw/share/doc/imagemagick/, 
/sw/share/doc/imagemagick2-dev/, /sw/share/doc/imagemagick2-shlibs/, ...

  What you are seeing might be due to having both 
%i/share/doc/imagemagick and /sw/share/doc/ImageMagick.


 And do I need to put the three offending files just into one lead 
 package of the two sets?

No.


 -- 
 Greetings

   Pete

 The wise man said: Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to 
 their level and beat you with experience.






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