Re: [Fis] Physics of Computing
Dear Gavin et.FIS, Information processing is omnipresent in biology. Alan Turing's reaction-diffusion model of morphogenesis is certainly well-known. Here are a few more examples implying information processing within biological systems: 1. Vrancisco Varela's self-reference calculus: http://www.slideshare.net/PriMate_PaTagOn/francisco-varela-a-calculus-for-selfreference-1707403 http://homepages.math.uic.edu/~kauffman/VarelaCSR.pdf and its implications: http://homepages.math.uic.edu/~kauffman/NetworkSynthesis.pdf http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/sres.1105/abstract;jsessionid=8CC55298874EE9F1A9A0D886491099EA.d04t04?systemMessage You could find more about it on Google 2. Robert Rosen's Anticipatory Systems and category theoretical studies on Life Itself (cf.. Amazon) and Aloisius Louie's continuation of that path with More than Life Itself. 3. Andree Ehresmann's dynamic CT based Memory Evolutive Systems (MES) (cf. Amazon) There are still many aspects of living systems that were not captured at the roots of the phenomena by mathematics and computation to this moment, despite several attempts for over 60 years. This is a huge field to be explored yet. But the complexity of the biological phenomena does not imply the automatic application of standard physicalistic approaches.I am not the first who claims that an H2O molecule in an the cat Tom is different form the one in the mouse Jerry, and then from the one in the pool in the garden. This is e.g. one of the issues where physics as it is cannot help further (individuality). Using and refining the tools we have in one field, does not imply a dogmatic denial of the necessity to invent new tools for another field that could be more effective there. Mathematics and physics as such cannot explain biology to the extent we need to know. They need to be developed to include the peculiarities of the phenomena at hand. I will stop here for now. Best, Plamen On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Gavin Ritz garr...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Hi FISers Can anyone show me a calculus for Information relating to biological systems? And if so show me the relationship with conceptual mathematics? Regards Gavin Dear FISers: Pedro and Plamen raise good and welcomed points regarding the nature of physics, information, and biology. Although I believe in a strong relationship between information and physics in biology, there are striking examples where direct correspondences between information, physics, and biology seem to depart. Scientists are only beginning to tease out these discrepancies which will undoubtedly give us a better understand of information. For example, in the study of cognition by A. Khrennikov and colleagues and J. Busemyer and colleagues, decisional processes may conform to quantum statistics and computation without necessarily being mediated by quantum mechanical phenomena at a biological level of description. I found this to be true in ciliates as well, where social strategy search speeds and decision rates may produce quantum computational phases that obey quantum statistics. In such cases, a changing classical diffusion term of response regulator reaction-diffusion parsimoniously accounts for the transition from classical to quantum information processing. Thus, there is no direct correspondence between quantum physicochemistry and quantum computation. Because the particular reaction-diffusion biochemistry is not unique to ciliates (i.e., the same phenomena is observed in plants, animals, and possibly bacteria), this incongruity may be widespread across life. Best regards, Kevin Clark ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- ___ ___ ___ Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov landline: +49.30.38.10.11.25 fax/ums: +49.30.48.49.88.26.4 mobile: +44.12.23.96.85.69 email: pla...@simeio.org URL: www.simeio.org ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Physics of computing
On 16 Mar 2012, at 18:43, Guy A Hoelzer wrote: Greetings All, While I like to think that I am not limited to reductionistic thinking, I find it difficult to understand any perspective on information that is not limited to physical manifestation. I would appreciate further justification for a non-physicalist perspective on information. How can something exist in the absence of physical manifestation? If you are realist about elementary arithmetic, that is if you agree that elementary arithmetical proposition like 17 is prime are true independently of you, then, by arithmetic's Turing universality, you can show that the numbers exchange information relatively to universal numbers, which are playing the role of relative interpreters. I am not interested in a metaphysical perspective here, which might have heuristic value even if it is not 'real'. The issue of 'content' and 'meaning' strikes me as entirely physical, so mentioning those issues doesn't help me understand what non-physical information might be. I would say that if information is physically manifested by contrasts (gradients, negentropy, …), then content or meaning refers to the internal dynamics of complex systems induced by interaction between the system and the physically manifested information. If there is no affect on internal dynamics, then the system did not 'perceive' the information. If the information merely causes a transient fluctuation of the internal dynamics, then the perceived information was not meaningful to the system. At least this is a sketch of my view that I hope illustrates why the notions of 'content' and 'meaning' does not depart the physical realm for me. I can prove that if we are machine at some description level, then the physical is both ontologically and epistemologically emerging from numbers relation. The hypothesis of mechanism can be shown logically incompatible with very weak form of materialism. Physics can not be fundamental, it emerges from mathematics, indeed from what has been called the sharable part of mathematics (sharable between classical logicians and intuitionist logicians, it is basically arithmetic or something recursively equivalent). We can already derive propositional quantum logic from classical number self-reference. Arithmetic is full of life at the start, and matter appears to be arithmetical truth as seen from inside. Poetically, to be short, numbers dreams, and physical realities are dream sharing. The quantum emerges, if mechanism is correct, from a statistics on all computations. This makes both matter and consciousness NON Turing emulable. In particular digital physics can be shown self-contradictory. Those (actually old) results are not well known but have been verified by many people. I don't think there is a flaw, but we never can be sure, of course. Bruno Marchal PS see below for a concise version of the proof: http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html Regards, Guy From: Pedro Clemente Marijuan Fernandez pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.esmailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 04:19:31 -0700 To: Foundations of Information Science Information Science fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Dear discussants, I tend to disagree with the motto information is physical if taken too strictly. Obviously if we look downwards it is OK, but in the upward direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has content and meaning. Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in the upward, but useless in the downward. By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems... best ---Pedro walter.riof...@terra.com.pemailto:walter.riof...@terra.com.pe escribió: Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation, energy and reality. I would like point out to other articles morefocused in how coherence and entanglement are used by living systems (far from thermal equilibrium): Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng Y.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Nature, 446(7137): 782-786. Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy in migration in a conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science, vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373. Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V. (2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the Avian Compass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106:
Re: [Fis] FW: [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S.
Concerning the meaning (or effect) of information (or constraint) in general, I have proposed that context is crucial in modulating the effect -- in all cases. Thus: it would be like the logical example: Effect = context a x Constraint ^context b STAN On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Christophe Menant christophe.men...@hotmail.fr wrote: *Dear FISers, Indeed information can be considered downwards (physical meaningless) and upwards (biological meaningful). The difference being about interpretation or not. It also introduces an evolutionary approach to information processing and meaning generation. There is a chapter on that subject in a recent book ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Information-Computation-Philosophical-Understanding-Foundations/dp/toc/9814295477 ). “Computation on Information, Meaning and Representations.An Evolutionary Approach” Content of the chapter: 1. Information and Meaning. Meaning Generation 1.1. Information.Meaning of information and quantity of information 1.2. Meaningful information and constraint satisfaction. A systemic approach 2. Information, Meaning and Representations. An Evolutionary Approach 2.1. Stay alive constraint and meaning generation for organisms 2.2. The Meaning Generator System (MGS). A systemic and evolutionary approach 2.3. Meaning transmission 2.4. Individual and species constraints. Group life constraints. Networks of meanings 2.5. From meaningful information to meaningful representations 3. Meaningful Information and Representations in Humans 4. Meaningful Information and Representations in Artificial Systems 4.1. Meaningful information and representations from traditional AI to Nouvelle AI. Embodied-situated AI 4.2. Meaningful representations versus the guidance theory of representation 4.3. Meaningful information and representations versus the enactive approach 5. Conclusion and Continuation 5.1. Conclusion 5.2. Continuation A version close to the final text can be reached at http://crmenant.free.fr/2009BookChapter/C.Menant.211009.pdf As Plamen says, we may be at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. But I’m afraid that an understanding of the meaning of information needs clear enough an understanding of the constraint at the source of the meaning generation process. And even for basic organic meanings coming from a “stay alive” constraint, we have to face the still mysterious nature of life. And for human meanings, the even more mysterious nature of human mind. This is not to discourage our efforts in investigating these questions. Just to put a stick in the ground showing where we stand. Best, Christophe * -- Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:47:28 +0100 From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Fecha: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:24:38 +0100 De: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com Para: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Referencias: 20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com 4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es 4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es +++ Dear All, I could not agree more with Pedro's opinion. The referred article is interesting indeed. but, information is only physical in the narrow sense taken by conventional physicalistic-mechanistic-computational approaches. Such a statement defends the reductionist view at nature: sorry. But information is more than bits and Shanno's law and biology has far more to offer. I think we are at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. So, we may need to take our (Maxwell) daemons and (Turing) oracles closer under the lens. In fact, David Ball, the author of the Nature paper approached me after my talk in Brussels in 2010 on the Integral Biomathics approach and told me he thinks it were a step in the right direction: biology driven mathematics and computation. By the way, our book of ideas on IB will be released next month by Springer: http://www.springer.com/engineering/computational+intelligence+and+complexity/book/978-3-642-28110-5 If you wish to obtain it at a lower price (65 EUR incl. worldwide delivery) please send me your names, mailing addresses and phone numbers via email to: pla...@simeio.org. There must be at least 9 orders to keep that discount price.. Best, Plamen On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote: Dear discussants, I tend to disagree with the motto information is physical if taken too strictly. Obviously if we look downwards it is OK, but in the upward direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has content
Re: [Fis] FW: [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S.
Stan - great formula but as I learned from Anthony Reading who wrote a lovely book on information Meaningful Information - it is the recipient that brings the meaning to the information. PS My book What is Information was been translated into Portuguese and published in Brazil where I am doing a 4 city, 5 university speaking tour. The book has not yet appeared in English but it is scheduled to be published soon by Demo press. Regards from Brazil - Bob On 2012-03-17, at 11:17 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: Concerning the meaning (or effect) of information (or constraint) in general, I have proposed that context is crucial in modulating the effect -- in all cases. Thus: it would be like the logical example: Effect = context a x Constraint ^context b STAN On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Christophe Menant christophe.men...@hotmail.fr wrote: Dear FISers, Indeed information can be considered downwards (physical meaningless) and upwards (biological meaningful). The difference being about interpretation or not. It also introduces an evolutionary approach to information processing and meaning generation. There is a chapter on that subject in a recent book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Information-Computation-Philosophical-Understanding-Foundations/dp/toc/9814295477). “Computation on Information, Meaning and Representations.An Evolutionary Approach” Content of the chapter: 1. Information and Meaning. Meaning Generation 1.1. Information.Meaning of information and quantity of information 1.2. Meaningful information and constraint satisfaction. A systemic approach 2. Information, Meaning and Representations. An Evolutionary Approach 2.1. Stay alive constraint and meaning generation for organisms 2.2. The Meaning Generator System (MGS). A systemic and evolutionary approach 2.3. Meaning transmission 2.4. Individual and species constraints. Group life constraints. Networks of meanings 2.5. From meaningful information to meaningful representations 3. Meaningful Information and Representations in Humans 4. Meaningful Information and Representations in Artificial Systems 4.1. Meaningful information and representations from traditional AI to Nouvelle AI. Embodied-situated AI 4.2. Meaningful representations versus the guidance theory of representation 4.3. Meaningful information and representations versus the enactive approach 5. Conclusion and Continuation 5.1. Conclusion 5.2. Continuation A version close to the final text can be reached at http://crmenant.free.fr/2009BookChapter/C.Menant.211009.pdf As Plamen says, we may be at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. But I’m afraid that an understanding of the meaning of information needs clear enough an understanding of the constraint at the source of the meaning generation process. And even for basic organic meanings coming from a “stay alive” constraint, we have to face the still mysterious nature of life. And for human meanings, the even more mysterious nature of human mind. This is not to discourage our efforts in investigating these questions. Just to put a stick in the ground showing where we stand. Best, Christophe Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:47:28 +0100 From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Fecha:Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:24:38 +0100 De: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com Para: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Referencias: 20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com 4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es +++ Dear All, I could not agree more with Pedro's opinion. The referred article is interesting indeed. but, information is only physical in the narrow sense taken by conventional physicalistic-mechanistic-computational approaches. Such a statement defends the reductionist view at nature: sorry. But information is more than bits and Shanno's law and biology has far more to offer. I think we are at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. So, we may need to take our (Maxwell) daemons and (Turing) oracles closer under the lens. In fact, David Ball, the author of the Nature paper approached me after my talk in Brussels in 2010 on the Integral Biomathics approach and told me he thinks it were a step in the right direction: biology driven mathematics and computation. By the way, our book of ideas on IB will be released next month by Springer: http://www.springer.com/engineering/computational+intelligence+and+complexity/book/978-3-642-28110-5 If you wish to obtain it at a lower price (65 EUR incl. worldwide delivery) please send me your names, mailing addresses and phone numbers via email to: pla...@simeio.org. There must be at least 9 orders to keep that discount price.. Best, Plamen On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at
