On 16 Mar 2012, at 18:43, Guy A Hoelzer wrote:

Greetings All,While I like to think that I am not limited to reductionisticthinking, I find it difficult to understand any perspective oninformation that is not limited to physical manifestation. I wouldappreciate further justification for a non-physicalist perspectiveon information. How can something exist in the absence of physicalmanifestation?

`If you are realist about elementary arithmetic, that is if you agree`

`that elementary arithmetical proposition like "17 is prime" are true`

`independently of you, then, by arithmetic's Turing universality, you`

`can show that the numbers exchange information relatively to universal`

`numbers, which are playing the role of relative interpreters.`

I am not interested in a metaphysical perspective here, which mighthave heuristic value even if it is not 'real'. The issue of'content' and 'meaning' strikes me as entirely physical, somentioning those issues doesn't help me understand what non-physicalinformation might be. I would say that if information is physicallymanifested by contrasts (gradients, negentropy, …), then content ormeaning refers to the internal dynamics of complex systems inducedby interaction between the system and the physically manifestedinformation. If there is no affect on internal dynamics, then thesystem did not 'perceive' the information. If the informationmerely causes a transient fluctuation of the internal dynamics, thenthe perceived information was not meaningful to the system. Atleast this is a sketch of my view that I hope illustrates why thenotions of 'content' and 'meaning' does not depart the physicalrealm for me.

`I can prove that if we are machine at some description level, then the`

`physical is both ontologically and epistemologically emerging from`

`numbers relation. The hypothesis of mechanism can be shown logically`

`incompatible with very weak form of materialism. Physics can not be`

`fundamental, it emerges from mathematics, indeed from what has been`

`called the sharable part of mathematics (sharable between classical`

`logicians and intuitionist logicians, it is basically arithmetic or`

`something recursively equivalent). We can already derive propositional`

`quantum logic from classical number self-reference. Arithmetic is full`

`of life at the start, and matter appears to be arithmetical truth as`

`seen from "inside".`

`Poetically, to be short, numbers dreams, and physical realities are`

`dream sharing. The quantum emerges, if mechanism is correct, from a`

`statistics on all computations. This makes both matter and`

`consciousness NON Turing emulable. In particular digital physics can`

`be shown self-contradictory. Those (actually old) results are not well`

`known but have been verified by many people. I don't think there is a`

`flaw, but we never can be sure, of course.`

Bruno Marchal PS see below for a concise version of the proof: http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html

Regards, GuyFrom: Pedro Clemente Marijuan Fernandez <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>>Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 04:19:31 -0700To: Foundations of Information Science Information Science <fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>>Subject: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Dear discussants,I tend to disagree with the motto "information is physical" if takentoo strictly. Obviously if we look "downwards" it is OK, but in the"upward" direction it is different. Info is not only physical then,and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of lifecycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has "content"and "meaning". Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downwarddimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. Myopinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing inthe upward, but useless in the downward.By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems...best ---Pedrowalter.riof...@terra.com.pe<mailto:walter.riof...@terra.com.pe>escribió:Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation,energy and reality.I would like point out to other articles morefocused in howcoherence and entanglement are used by living systems (far fromthermal equilibrium):Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., ChengY.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelikeenergy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems.Nature, 446(7137): 782-786.Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy inmigration in a conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science,vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373.Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V.(2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the AvianCompass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106: 040503.Cia, J. et al, (2009) Dynamic entanglement in oscillatingmolecules. arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph]Sincerely, Walter ________________________________ _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- ------------------------------------------------- Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554 pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ ------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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