Re: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S.
, at 9:30 AM, Bob Logan wrote: Dear Stanley - how can there be information in the abiotic world? Information is the noun associated with the verb to inform or informing. A rock can not be informed. An abiotic entity can not be informed. Information begins with life. A bacterium can be informed but not an abiotic entity. When we look at stars or the moon or a fossil, they are not information. Our interpretation of the things in nature we observe, biotic or abiotic is the information. Perhaps I am missing something but that is how I see things from my naive point of view. The star, the moon or the fossil are not signs unless you believe that God exists and he or she made these signs for us to interpret. What do you mean that semiosis is a universal phenomenon? best Bob On 2012-03-18, at 11:48 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: As my first posting for this week: Bob, Loet -- I respond by clarifying that my meaning in this little equation is that (following Sebeok) semiosis is a universal phenomenon. The system of interpretance in my effort here is the LOCALE. It is such locales that have evolved into organisms and social systems. In organisms and other distinct systems of interpretance, the sign is the context for interpretation. So, in the little equation, I am GENERALIZING semiosis into abiotic Nature. STAN On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 2:57 AM, Loet Leydesdorff l...@leydesdorff.net wrote: Dear Bob, Yes, I agree: the difference that makes a difference is operationally generated by a receiving system; information itself is nothing but a series of differences (contained in a probability distribution). The selection mechanisms in the receiving systems that position the incoming uncertainty have to be specified (as hypotheses). Meaningful information emerges from selecting the signal from the noise. The meaningful information (the differences that make a difference) can again be communicated as information (for example, in and among biological systems). Thus, the operation is recursive and the communication / autopoiesis continues. Meaning can only be communicated by systems which are able to entertain a symbolic order reflexively such as human beings and in interhuman discourses. I'll read the book by Reading. Best, Loet Loet Leydesdorff Professor, University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111 l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ ; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJhl=en From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Bob Logan Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:55 PM To: Stanley N Salthe Cc: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. Stan - great formula but as I learned from Anthony Reading who wrote a lovely book on information Meaningful Information - it is the recipient that brings the meaning to the information. PS My book What is Information was been translated into Portuguese and published in Brazil where I am doing a 4 city, 5 university speaking tour. The book has not yet appeared in English but it is scheduled to be published soon by Demo press. Regards from Brazil - Bob On 2012-03-17, at 11:17 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: Concerning the meaning (or effect) of information (or constraint) in general, I have proposed that context is crucial in modulating the effect -- in all cases. Thus: it would be like the logical example: Effect = context a x Constraint ^context b STAN On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Christophe Menant christophe.men...@hotmail.fr wrote: Dear FISers, Indeed information can be considered downwards (physical meaningless) and upwards (biological meaningful). The difference being about interpretation or not. It also introduces an evolutionary approach to information processing and meaning generation. There is a chapter on that subject in a recent book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Information-Computation-Philosophical-Understanding-Foundations/dp/toc/9814295477). Computation on Information, Meaning and Representations.An Evolutionary Approach Content of the chapter: 1. Information and Meaning. Meaning Generation 1.1. Information.Meaning of information and quantity of information 1.2. Meaningful information and constraint satisfaction. A systemic approach 2. Information, Meaning and Representations. An Evolutionary Approach 2.1. Stay alive constraint and meaning generation for organisms 2.2. The Meaning Generator System (MGS). A systemic and evolutionary approach 2.3. Meaning transmission 2.4. Individual and species constraints. Group life constraints. Networks of meanings 2.5. From meaningful information
Re: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S.
I'm with Bob on this to a point. Too often I see people giving information an existential status that it is not due. As you will recall, in my terms, information is simply a way of speaking about that which identifies cause and adds to knowledge, knowledge is simply a way a way of speaking about that which determines subsequent action. However, this does allow me to identify a rock as the source of information and to speak about its behavior in terms of its knowledge, that about its structure and dynamics that determine its subsequent action. I do not use semeiosis in the universal way that I use knowledge. I could see it being so used only if it excludes sensory operation, since I argue for a role that sense plays in the behavior of living systems, and I include that role as distinguishing semeiosis, the term for me refers only to the sign processing of living systems. With respect, Steven -- Dr. Steven Ericsson-Zenith Institute for Advanced Science Engineering http://iase.info On Mar 18, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Bob Logan wrote: Dear Stanley - how can there be information in the abiotic world? Information is the noun associated with the verb to inform or informing. A rock can not be informed. An abiotic entity can not be informed. Information begins with life. A bacterium can be informed but not an abiotic entity. When we look at stars or the moon or a fossil, they are not information. Our interpretation of the things in nature we observe, biotic or abiotic is the information. Perhaps I am missing something but that is how I see things from my naive point of view. The star, the moon or the fossil are not signs unless you believe that God exists and he or she made these signs for us to interpret. What do you mean that semiosis is a universal phenomenon? best Bob On 2012-03-18, at 11:48 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: As my first posting for this week: Bob, Loet -- I respond by clarifying that my meaning in this little equation is that (following Sebeok) semiosis is a universal phenomenon. The system of interpretance in my effort here is the LOCALE. It is such locales that have evolved into organisms and social systems. In organisms and other distinct systems of interpretance, the sign is the context for interpretation. So, in the little equation, I am GENERALIZING semiosis into abiotic Nature. STAN On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 2:57 AM, Loet Leydesdorff l...@leydesdorff.net wrote: Dear Bob, Yes, I agree: the difference that makes a difference is operationally generated by a receiving system; information itself is nothing but a series of differences (contained in a probability distribution). The selection mechanisms in the receiving systems that position the incoming uncertainty have to be specified (as hypotheses). Meaningful information emerges from selecting the signal from the noise. The meaningful information (the differences that make a difference) can again be communicated as information (for example, in and among biological systems). Thus, the operation is recursive and the communication / autopoiesis continues. Meaning can only be communicated by systems which are able to entertain a symbolic order reflexively such as human beings and in interhuman discourses. I’ll read the book by Reading. Best, Loet Loet Leydesdorff Professor, University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111 l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ ; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJhl=en From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Bob Logan Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:55 PM To: Stanley N Salthe Cc: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. Stan - great formula but as I learned from Anthony Reading who wrote a lovely book on information Meaningful Information - it is the recipient that brings the meaning to the information. PS My book What is Information was been translated into Portuguese and published in Brazil where I am doing a 4 city, 5 university speaking tour. The book has not yet appeared in English but it is scheduled to be published soon by Demo press. Regards from Brazil - Bob On 2012-03-17, at 11:17 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: Concerning the meaning (or effect) of information (or constraint) in general, I have proposed that context is crucial in modulating the effect -- in all cases. Thus: it would be like the logical example: Effect = context a x Constraint ^context b STAN On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Christophe Menant christophe.men...@hotmail.fr wrote: Dear FISers, Indeed information can be considered downwards (physical
[Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S.
Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Fecha: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:24:38 +0100 De: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com Para: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Referencias: 20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com 4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es +++ Dear All, I could not agree more with Pedro's opinion. The referred article is interesting indeed. but, information is only physical in the narrow sense taken by conventional physicalistic-mechanistic-computational approaches. Such a statement defends the reductionist view at nature: sorry. But information is more than bits and Shanno's law and biology has far more to offer. I think we are at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. So, we may need to take our (Maxwell) daemons and (Turing) oracles closer under the lens. In fact, David Ball, the author of the Nature paper approached me after my talk in Brussels in 2010 on the Integral Biomathics approach and told me he thinks it were a step in the right direction: biology driven mathematics and computation. By the way, our book of ideas on IB will be released next month by Springer: http://www.springer.com/engineering/computational+intelligence+and+complexity/book/978-3-642-28110-5 If you wish to obtain it at a lower price (65 EUR incl. worldwide delivery) please send me your names, mailing addresses and phone numbers via email to: pla...@simeio.org mailto:pla...@simeio.org. There must be at least 9 orders to keep that discount price.. Best, Plamen On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote: Dear discussants, I tend to disagree with the motto information is physical if taken too strictly. Obviously if we look downwards it is OK, but in the upward direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has content and meaning. Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in the upward, but useless in the downward. By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems... best ---Pedro walter.riof...@terra.com.pe mailto:walter.riof...@terra.com.pe escribió: Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation, energy and reality. I would like point out to other articles more focused in how coherence and entanglement are used by living systems (far from thermal equilibrium): Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng Y.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Nature, 446(7137): 782-786. Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy in migration in a conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science, vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373. Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V. (2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the Avian Compass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106: 040503. Cia, J. et al, (2009) Dynamic entanglement in oscillating molecules. arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph] Sincerely, Walter ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov landline: +49.30.38.10.11.25 fax/ums: +49.30.48.49.88.26.4 mobile: +44.12.23.96.85.69 email: pla...@simeio.org mailto:pla...@simeio.org URL: www.simeio.org http://www.simeio.org -- ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
