Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Martin Spott wrote : Inspired by others on this list I had my first flight with controls in my hands on a C172. This was the first flight I ever had on such a small plane. Hey, that's great. ... Hey guys (and gals), do that yourself, it is really worth it ! And don't forget to watch out, especially remember the position of the horizon anytime, You can say what you want, but simulation cannot render the feeling of having a real plane in its hands. who's next ? -Fred ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Martin Spott wrote: Inspired by others on this list I had my first flight with controls in my hands on a C172. This was the first flight I ever had on such a small plane. The Instructor took of from EDLN runway 13 and handed the controls over to me after reaching 1500 feet. I had about 10 minutes time to head south and get the feeling how to fly at a constant altitude - I didn't really 'manage' it but it worked quite well for the first time (watch the horizon !). After reaching the 'playground' over an open mining of brown coal we had time for a little 'programme'. So I had a few narrow curves with 60 degree bank (how would you call this in English ?) and two stall recoveries (hey, you lost only 100 feet !). _This_ was really a pretty nice experience after all. During our programme a pair of Tornados came by way below us, VFR at about 150 feet. Seems you had a lot more exciting moments in your first trip than I had! The most exciting was a few sharp turns around an aquaduct. Anyhow, I agree with you that every one who likes to use simulators should at least once try to fly a real airplane. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Erik Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyhow, I agree with you that every one who likes to use simulators should at least once try to fly a real airplane. I wouldn't say I like to use simulators. I simply was looking for a piece of software I could partially misuse for my own purpose. Somehow I got attracted by FlightGear because it offers one step of a way I was heading for since I left school but never managed to walk. Now I might come out spending time and money for the PPL that was previously determined to be poured into my private project ;-)) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Martin Spott writes: Inspired by others on this list I had my first flight with controls in my hands on a C172. This was the first flight I ever had on such a small plane. Excellent -- congratulations! The Instructor took of from EDLN runway 13 and handed the controls over to me after reaching 1500 feet. I had about 10 minutes time to head south and get the feeling how to fly at a constant altitude - I didn't really 'manage' it but it worked quite well for the first time (watch the horizon !). I'm sure that it went fine. In Canada, even for the instrument rating, you have to hold enroute altitude only +/-100 feet (with extra allowance for significant turbulence), though most people try to keep it much tighter. For the private pilot's license, I think that the tolerance is +/- 200 feet, but I'll have to check. I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to hold +/- 10 feet for VFR or IFR, but do not even think about beating yourself up in your early training because of a few altitude excursions, even if your country's standards are a little tighter than over here. After reaching the 'playground' over an open mining of brown coal we had time for a little 'programme'. Standard turn right (I overshot by about 15 seconds), standard turn left, another standard turn (much better than the first one). The next excercises were shown by the instructor before I had the chance to do them myself - I had to handle carb heating and throttle, the instructor dealt with the mixture. That sounds like a lot to be doing on the intro flight -- the usual program (at least in North America) is just to fly a 30-minute sightseeing flight, giving the student the controls at altitude and possibly (with a lot of assistance) for takeoff and landing. Timed turns are very advanced stuff -- their only real purpose is for partial-panel IFR without radar vectors. For 'playground', we say 'practice area' in North America. Wie sagt man's auf Deutsch? So I had a few narrow curves with 60 degree bank (how would you call this in English ?) and two stall recoveries (hey, you lost only 100 feet !). Steep turns and stalls in an intro flight? By gawd! Did you ask for all that especially, or is it standard? I think it's great that you did all that and that you enjoyed it (and did well, from the sound of it), but the trouble is that it would scare a lot of people in an intro flight. By the way, we use only 45 degrees for our steep turns -- not nearly as exciting. _This_ was really a pretty nice experience after all. During our programme a pair of Tornados came by way below us, VFR at about 150 feet. That kind of thing is always wonderful. I took my family up for a couple of quick circuits on Canada Day (1 July), and the Snowbirds (http://www.snowbirds.dnd.ca/) were up in their CT-114's about four miles ahead of us doing aerobatics and formation work over downtown Ottawa. It was great for my pax seeing them from the air (at eye level) and listening to them talking to tower; at one point, the Snowbirds all went vertical and made a fan with their smoke trails right at 12 O'Clock. On the ground, my family also got to watch a 182 dive-bombing the field repeatedly trying to do a banner pickup. After 25 minutes I headed for the airport the instructor took over for approach. EDLN is an airfield with (small) airline traffic, so you have to follow certain procedures that are quite new to me. But I think I'll be able to learn that stuff. I think that it's good to train out of a moderately busy field, because then radio procedures and ATC will never be a stress. I flew into New York airspace a few weeks ago (of PUSHING TIN fame) to land at KCDW, and it was no big deal. Hey guys (and gals), do that yourself, it is really worth it ! And don't forget to watch out, especially remember the position of the horizon anytime, Forgetting that simple rule probably cost me at least a few hundred $$ in extra lessons. That's why I wrote this (in case anyone hasn't seen it already): http://www.flightgear.org/Docs/Tutorials/circuit/ Thanks for the report, and welcome to the club. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Martin Spott writes: I wouldn't say I like to use simulators. I simply was looking for a piece of software I could partially misuse for my own purpose. Somehow I got attracted by FlightGear because it offers one step of a way I was heading for since I left school but never managed to walk. Now I might come out spending time and money for the PPL that was previously determined to be poured into my private project ;-)) Martin: I don't know how much free time you have, but if you price it out, it could turn out that it's cheaper to come to North America to do your PPL training (I'm pretty sure the hours will be recognized in Germany though you might have to redo the flight test and written exam -- check, of course). The average cost for finishing a PPL in Canada, including ground school and all other expenses, is about CAD 7,500-8,000 (ca. EUR 5,000); if you're a fast learner, it could be as little as CAD 6,000 (EUR 3,800). What's the average cost in DE? All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Congratulations! Great feeling, isn't it? I started about 6 weeks ago, in a 152, and had a very similar experience... Didn't do any stalls on the first flight, but I was kind of shocked when he had me do the taxiing and the takeoff by myself. (Maybe that's the difference between an intro flight and lesson 1.) He did nothing but the radios. (Class D airport - KORH) I lost a lot of altitude on my first turns despite the fact I knew enough to expect to have to add back pressure... A 60 degree bank is one *steep* turn. For a PPL in the states, they ask you to demonstrate steep turns, but at 45 degrees. If I remember correctly, a 60 deg turn causes a 2G load on the wings. I was absolutely mortified when my instructor didn't take the controls on final approach. He actually expected me to land it! I was under strict voice control... Carb heat on, reduce power to 1500 RPM, keep it lined up, add some power, steady.steady drop the nose a bit, power all the way out No, really, all the way keep the nose down MATT! LET THE NOSE DOWN That's it Yes, we do want to reach the ground level out a little more back pressure. LIFT THE NOSE! keep it steady [THUD] Beautiful! Flaps up, and steer with your feet. About 20 seconds of sheer terror. And in retrospect, I've got about 25 landings under my belt, and that one was actually pretty good, although I didn't like it at the time In any case, it really is a blast, and I too highly recommend an intro flight (if not lesson 1...) for anybody who enjoys flying a sim (or playing around)... (Do not ask to flight beneath bridges...!) Martin, if you decide to continue on for you PPL, I can recommend a good ground school program in Cleared for Takeoff by King Schools. (Resold by Cessna, too.) It's something like 26 CDs; you simply watch the video, and answer some questions. It's windows based, however, and very much geared to the US, which may or may not be useful to you... Any how, good luck! And welcome! -Matt Martin Spott wrote: Inspired by others on this list I had my first flight with controls in my hands on a C172. This was the first flight I ever had on such a small plane. I once sat in a BN2 as a passanger but I must admit that sitting in a 10 seater, even though it was a great excitement sitting behind the co's seat (no co present on this flight), wathing everything that's going on, was far not that much a great experience as the flight yesterday. The Instructor took of from EDLN runway 13 and handed the controls over to me after reaching 1500 feet. I had about 10 minutes time to head south and get the feeling how to fly at a constant altitude - I didn't really 'manage' it but it worked quite well for the first time (watch the horizon !). After reaching the 'playground' over an open mining of brown coal we had time for a little 'programme'. Standard turn right (I overshot by about 15 seconds), standard turn left, another standard turn (much better than the first one). The next excercises were shown by the instructor before I had the chance to do them myself - I had to handle carb heating and throttle, the instructor dealt with the mixture. So I had a few narrow curves with 60 degree bank (how would you call this in English ?) and two stall recoveries (hey, you lost only 100 feet !). _This_ was really a pretty nice experience after all. During our programme a pair of Tornados came by way below us, VFR at about 150 feet. After 25 minutes I headed for the airport the instructor took over for approach. EDLN is an airfield with (small) airline traffic, so you have to follow certain procedures that are quite new to me. But I think I'll be able to learn that stuff. Hey guys (and gals), do that yourself, it is really worth it ! And don't forget to watch out, especially remember the position of the horizon anytime, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Matt Fienberg writes: If I remember correctly, a 60 deg turn causes a 2G load on the wings. ... and on your seat cushion. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Very true... But it's the wing load that cause your stall speed to increase... Seat cussion load causes other problems ;) David Megginson wrote: Matt Fienberg writes: If I remember correctly, a 60 deg turn causes a 2G load on the wings. ... and on your seat cushion. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
David Megginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure that it went fine. In Canada, even for the instrument rating, you have to hold enroute altitude only +/-100 feet (with extra allowance for significant turbulence), though most people try to keep it much tighter. For the private pilot's license, I think that the tolerance is +/- 200 feet, but I'll have to check. I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to hold +/- 10 feet for VFR or IFR, [...] I found it not to be too difficult. I consider the yoke of a C172 as the major hurdle: You push it but you get only miminal feedback if it really moves of if it's just you wrist that is twisting a few millimeters. I'll try to have plane with stick the next time so I get a feeling for the difference. I sat in a C172 and other planes many times - standing still on the ground. I have the impression the yoke of a C172 is not optimal when you want to realize only small evelator movement. What about your Piper ? They have the same one at the flight school. Still it's embarassing how easy it is to hold the altitude within +/- 20 feet even in a bit 'bumpy' air when you look at the horizon. Every time I looked at the altimeter for more than a few seconds I started flying waveform. After returning to the view out of the screen I managed to stabilize altitute within 5 seconds or so. For 'playground', we say 'practice area' in North America. Wie sagt man's auf Deutsch? Oh', I'm shure there is an appropriate translation for 'practice area' in German, but I consider the word 'playground' as well chosen: Nobody out there (except the Tornado's) and lots of space to to everything you like :-) Just like a 'Spielplatz'. You're aiming at 'Übungsgelände'. Steep turns and stalls in an intro flight? By gawd! Did you ask for all that especially, or is it standard? I don't think there's a standard. I've been doing a little bit with model airplanes and a helicopter during school and I've got a bit of practice with FlightGear (). So I made an agreement with the instructor to do those things he feels safe with me controlling the plane and do avoid those he does not agree on. Simple as that :-) In 'real' live the instructor is CEO as a small (12 people) software company. He's running the flight school in his spare time. He's doing this for fun only, not to make money - I consider this as a great deal ! Forgetting that simple rule probably cost me at least a few hundred $$ in extra lessons. That's why I wrote this (in case anyone hasn't seen it already): http://www.flightgear.org/Docs/Tutorials/circuit/ Oh, I've read this several times. Still it makes quite a big difference reading a tutorial and remembering the contents of the tutorial while you are in air :-) Thanks, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Just gotta rationalize If I go for my PPL, I need to stay healthy. If I don't, I'll just keep my butt on the couch, eat, and gain weight. Well, we don't what *that* to happen. We all know how expensive healthcare is... Therefore, the cheap solution, is to simply get my PPL... ;) -Matt Martin Spott wrote: David Megginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know how much free time you have, but if you price it out, it could turn out that it's cheaper to come to North America to do your PPL training (I'm pretty sure the hours will be recognized in Germany though you might have to redo the flight test and written exam -- check, of course). I already considered this as a valuable idea. _But_: I don't earn money as long as I don't work. I'm sort of freelancer Unix sysadmin and I'm in the situation that I have to earn the necessary 9.000 Euro before I can spend them for the PPL. If I take three weeks off then I'm loosing about the same amount of money that I save by doing flight training in north America I'll have do ask my dad ;-)) When I went to Canada for holidays (twice) I thought about adding some time for the PPL but that didn't work out because of monetary reasons. Aside of this, I can't stay away from my customers for more than three weeks, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Martin Spott writes: I found it not to be too difficult. I consider the yoke of a C172 as the major hurdle: You push it but you get only miminal feedback if it really moves of if it's just you wrist that is twisting a few millimeters. I'll try to have plane with stick the next time so I get a feeling for the difference. The trim wheel makes a big difference: you always want to set the yoke so that the horizon is in the right place, then immediately trim off all pressure. As long as you're holding the yoke loosely with only your thumb and index finger (with your left elbow on the armrest), you'll develop a good sensitivity for fine control pressures. That said, if you're getting a bit of play -- that is, if you can move the yoke noticeably without moving the control surfaces -- then you should consider asking your instructor to put a squawk in the logbook. Even a small yoke movement should result in a small control-surface movement. I sat in a C172 and other planes many times - standing still on the ground. I have the impression the yoke of a C172 is not optimal when you want to realize only small evelator movement. What about your Piper ? They have the same one at the flight school. I have not noticed any play in my yoke. One general problem, though, is phugoid oscillations -- if you make a small elevator change, it will automatically develop into a series of diminishing waves that you then have to damp out. That might be why it seems hard to make small changes right now. Still it's embarassing how easy it is to hold the altitude within +/- 20 feet even in a bit 'bumpy' air when you look at the horizon. Every time I looked at the altimeter for more than a few seconds I started flying waveform. After returning to the view out of the screen I managed to stabilize altitute within 5 seconds or so. You might find that it gets a bit harder, even VFR, when you have more to distract you (radio work, scanning for traffic, maps and navigation, E6B calculations, etc.) but it still sounds like you have a lot of good, natural ability. What time of day did you fly? On a summer afternoon, the thermals can give you quite a good workout (you blink your eyes and you've lost or gained 200 feet). Morning and evening are smoother. Steep turns and stalls in an intro flight? By gawd! Did you ask for all that especially, or is it standard? I don't think there's a standard. I've been doing a little bit with model airplanes and a helicopter during school and I've got a bit of practice with FlightGear (). So I made an agreement with the instructor to do those things he feels safe with me controlling the plane and do avoid those he does not agree on. Simple as that :-) Good -- I was worried that he might be doing that with every new student. In your case, I think it made sense. In 'real' live the instructor is CEO as a small (12 people) software company. He's running the flight school in his spare time. He's doing this for fun only, not to make money - I consider this as a great deal ! Sounds good to me. Obviously you trusted each other enough to do some serious upper air work in the first lesson, and that's a good sign. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Matt Fienberg writes: Just gotta rationalize If I go for my PPL, I need to stay healthy. If I don't, I'll just keep my butt on the couch, eat, and gain weight. Well, we don't what *that* to happen. We all know how expensive healthcare is... Therefore, the cheap solution, is to simply get my PPL... At 75% power, my plane burns 8.5 gph by the book, or about 7.5 gph in real life. That means that every 23 lb I gain is 30 minutes of fuel lost, and vice-versa. Right now, I can fly with my wife, two kids, dog, light luggage, and full fuel, and stay about 30 lb under maximum gross weight; as my girls grow bigger, I'll have to either lose weight or fly without full tanks (and perhaps leave the dog behind). All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Matt Fienberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Congratulations! Great feeling, isn't it? Oh, absolutely ! Thanks to all for the good wishes. You're encouraging me to do the second step. A 60 degree bank is one *steep* turn. For a PPL in the states, they ask you to demonstrate steep turns, but at 45 degrees. If I remember correctly, a 60 deg turn causes a 2G load on the wings. At least I was told this would be 60 degree. The second mark on the artificial horizon. Isn't it ? For me this looks pretty much like 60 degree. In Germany we call it very similar: 'Steilkurve', that's pretty much the direct translation. I was absolutely mortified when my instructor didn't take the controls on final approach. He actually expected me to land it! I was under strict voice control... Carb heat on, reduce power to 1500 RPM, keep it lined up, add some power, steady.steady drop the nose a bit, power all the way out No, really, all the way keep the nose down MATT! LET THE NOSE DOWN That's it Yes, we do want to reach the ground level out a little more back pressure. LIFT THE NOSE! [...] In FlightGear it's quite easy to touch down before the beginning of the runway. This feels a bit different when you encounter all the poles and lights below your feet on a real landing :-) Martin, if you decide to continue on for you PPL, I can recommend a good ground school program in Cleared for Takeoff by King Schools. (Resold by Cessna, too.) It's something like 26 CDs; you simply watch the video, Thanks. I'll decide how to do my trainig when the Time Has Come and I'll consider your suggestion, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Martin Spott writes: Martin, if you decide to continue on for you PPL, I can recommend a good ground school program in Cleared for Takeoff by King Schools. (Resold by Cessna, too.) It's something like 26 CDs; you simply watch the video, Thanks. I'll decide how to do my trainig when the Time Has Come and I'll consider your suggestion, Actually, the first step is to order a copy of the book STICK AND RUDDER by Wolfgang Langweise and read it cover-to-cover at least twice. It was written in the early 1940's, but is still in print and is still the bible of VFR flying -- I've never met a pilot who read it and didn't recommend it strongly. Order it now -- it's a cheap investment at EUR 24.00. Unfortunately, I didn't read it until after I finished my PPL (and after I'd written my Circuit in FlightGear tutorial): http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070362408/ Outside of Germany: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070362408/ http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070362408/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070362408/ etc. Also highly recommended for people who fly only the sim -- you can try out the techniques with the book open on your desk in front of you. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Maiden flight
Jim Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: So I had a few narrow curves with 60 degree bank (how would you call this in English ?) and two stall recoveries (hey, you lost only 100 feet !). Wow. Did your instructor know you had flight simulation experience? Or did you request the 60 degree turn and stall recovery maneuvers? I told him the way I'm involved in the Flightgear project and he responded Aaaah, quality control ;-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
