Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 4:32 AM, Heiko Schulz wrote: *Hi all,*** *I installed Joomla! yesterday on my page, for making a example of what could be flightgear.org in the next time.* This is a me too post. :-) I have also installed joomla-1.5 here: http://www.flightgear.org/joomla/ What you will find there is the originally installed default content. However, joomla does look pretty cool and if we want to explore this direction, we could have people register and start playing around with content management. Here are a couple thoughts from a devil's advocate perspective: 1. Joomla adds an extra layer of management between the actual content and how it gets presented to web visitors. The actual content and site settings are stored in a mysql database. Question: what if our joomla site gets hacked some how and vandalized? How easy is it to roll back changes and restore a site after it's been damaged? With our current system it's real easy ... I just rerun the web site rsync command and yell at the ISP to fix the security hole. If the problem is all contained within our mysql database and user managment system, then that could be harder to deal with. These are things we'll have to explore, but I assume there is a way to backup the entire site off line and restore it later if there is a problem? We supposedly have that capability with our phpbb forum, but the restore side of this has never been tested. Security and recoverability and fixability is something we need to consider if we were to make an official move from a simple system to a far more complex system. 2. Simplicity versus complexity. For a long time I displayed a powered by vi banner on my personal home page. That was somewhat intended in humor, but it was also at least half true. My site was actually powered by a combination of vi + emacs. Modern, highly complex systems can be great, but they can also turn into a nightmare if something (even something small and simple) goes wrong. We live in a culture that lives for the next gadget, then next feature, the next release. For most of us newer is automatically better. The more flashy, the more technically complicated, the more features, the more gadgets ... the better. The other approach is to value tried and true, to value things that are well tested and have proven themselves over the course of suffcient time. I'm not saying this to setup an argument for or against anything, I'm just saying that we need to keep a healthy perspective of the tradeoffs, the risks, and the potential difficulties if we were to move forward with it. You probably already know this about me, but I do often view the latest fads and the latest hype with a certain amount of skepticism. I am I going to get massively flamed in 2 years when froombla is released and it's way better than joombla and we aren't using it? :-) Have any joombla sites crashed and burned because someone had a weak password and their account was hacked? Or because there was some security hole in the code? And if a mysql database gets corrupted or damaged for some reason, how hard is the repair job? So anyway for those that are impatient (although I've never seen any evidence of that around here) you can register and give it a try. I probably have to give you write access once you register, but registration is step #1. Best regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Hi Curt, nice to see that you agree with this area. I'm still doing some wokr on it, sou everyone can see what I like to see and what not. I have similar feelings about safety when I thought about some things yesterday, but can't believe, that Joomla! is more unsave than other systems. I will investigate and try to get answers so we can absolutely sure- I would really like to see CMS, but if Joomla! is unsafe, trere are some others as well. Cheers HHS still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html Von: Curtis Olson curtol...@gmail.com An: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Gesendet: Montag, den 15. Juni 2009, 18:37:51 Uhr Betreff: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo] On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 4:32 AM, Heiko Schulz wrote: Hi all, I installed Joomla! yesterday on my page, for making a example of what could be flightgear.org in the next time. This is a me too post. :-) I have also installed joomla-1.5 here: http://www.flightgear.org/joomla/ What you will find there is the originally installed default content. However, joomla does look pretty cool and if we want to explore this direction, we could have people register and start playing around with content management. Here are a couple thoughts from a devil's advocate perspective: 1. Joomla adds an extra layer of management between the actual content and how it gets presented to web visitors. The actual content and site settings are stored in a mysql database. Question: what if our joomla site gets hacked some how and vandalized? How easy is it to roll back changes and restore a site after it's been damaged? With our current system it's real easy ... I just rerun the web site rsync command and yell at the ISP to fix the security hole. If the problem is all contained within our mysql database and user managment system, then that could be harder to deal with. These are things we'll have to explore, but I assume there is a way to backup the entire site off line and restore it later if there is a problem? We supposedly have that capability with our phpbb forum, but the restore side of this has never been tested. Security and recoverability and fixability is something we need to consider if we were to make an official move from a simple system to a far more complex system. 2. Simplicity versus complexity. For a long time I displayed a powered by vi banner on my personal home page. That was somewhat intended in humor, but it was also at least half true. My site was actually powered by a combination of vi + emacs. Modern, highly complex systems can be great, but they can also turn into a nightmare if something (even something small and simple) goes wrong. We live in a culture that lives for the next gadget, then next feature, the next release. For most of us newer is automatically better. The more flashy, the more technically complicated, the more features, the more gadgets ... the better. The other approach is to value tried and true, to value things that are well tested and have proven themselves over the course of suffcient time. I'm not saying this to setup an argument for or against anything, I'm just saying that we need to keep a healthy perspective of the tradeoffs, the risks, and the potential difficulties if we were to move forward with it. You probably already know this about me, but I do often view the latest fads and the latest hype with a certain amount of skepticism. I am I going to get massively flamed in 2 years when froombla is released and it's way better than joombla and we aren't using it? :-) Have any joombla sites crashed and burned because someone had a weak password and their account was hacked? Or because there was some security hole in the code? And if a mysql database gets corrupted or damaged for some reason, how hard is the repair job? So anyway for those that are impatient (although I've never seen any evidence of that around here) you can register and give it a try. I probably have to give you write access once you register, but registration is step #1. Best regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Hi, First answer for this question 1. Joomla adds an extra layer of management between the actual content and how it gets presented to web visitors. The actual content and site settings are stored in a mysql database. Question: what if our joomla site gets hacked some how and vandalized? How easy is it to roll back changes and restore a site after it's been damaged? With our current system it's real easy ... I just rerun the web site rsync command and yell at the ISP to fix the security hole. If the problem is all contained within our mysql database and user managment system, then that could be harder to deal with. These are things we'll have to explore, but I assume there is a way to backup the entire site off line and restore it later if there is a problem? We supposedly have that capability with our phpbb forum, but the restore side of this has never been tested. Security and recoverability and fixability is something we need to consider if we were to make an official move from a simple system to a far more complex system. _ Generally: At first you have to be sure to make the whole installation safe. Only two or three people should have the acess to it and have authority to change things. As Torsten already said: it is a mount of work to keep pages like the wiki clean, so only few authors. Changing passwords regulary should be clear. No shared servers! Make a backup! It is better on a local server apart from the webserver. Not the system avsim.com used! ;-). In the case of an hack: you can make list of those files which has changed, there is a script available for it. But it is better to delete everything and then new installation with the backup. -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Hi all, I installed Joomla! yesterday on my page, for making a example of what could be flightgear.org in the next time. Joomla! is OpenSource CMS which is under GNU GPL. The look of the page can be easily changed with html and css, and there are lot of GNU GPL templates to use and change out. It is barrier-free, has already installed the possibilites to make newsfeeds, votings etc. There are modules out, so we can add galleries etc. easily. I'm sure we can also still use the current gallery. It has still place for the advertisement, but isn't so much in the foreground like we have now. For changing the content of the page, you will have to log in and you will find a wysiwyg-editor which be used from any browser, so migrating and changing the content ist just pastecopy! It is not more unsafe than other pages done with CMS or without. I'm now out of town for maybe two days, after that I will try to organize the important parts of flightgear.org and fill my example with content, so everyone can see, how flightgear.org could look and feel in near future. I think that's the best solution so far, to make flightgear.org look nice again, but easy to use for all especially Curt too! Kind regards HHS Von: Curtis Olson curtol...@gmail.com An: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Gesendet: Samstag, den 13. Juni 2009, 14:55:14 Uhr Betreff: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo] The last time we revamped the web site, we had someone put together a demonstration page of the new layout for others to review. We decided we liked it and decided it was worth moving forward, so that person then proceeded to convert the entire site to the new layout. It was a lot of work, but it was also big step forward over what we had before. Best regards, Curt. Heiko Schulz wrote: Lol... That's actually a really cool picture! The reflection of the modern jet in the windows in the background. It wasn't my intention just to show a nice pic- I wanted you to just explain, why I'm so strong in convincing you that there are better ways to present the OpenSource FlightGear Project! The Ju52 was a great aircraft, safe in flying, possible to use as passenger aircraft and cargo aircraft, robuste, strong. It was the main aircraft for Lufthansa and it even flew from germany to china once a time. But time went one, and there came better aircrafts, which replaced the Ju52. Today it is the B737 which is the main aircraft for Lufthansa- and will be also replaced in the next years. Guess why Our current presentation on the web was good for a long time- but I think there are no better possibilities available. That's all. On the pic in front you could also try to see current flightgear.org- in the background a possible new flightgear.org. But I feel, that there is nothing that could convince you- so I give up now. You won! HHS -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Heiko Schulz ha scritto: *Hi all,* ** *I installed Joomla! yesterday on my page, for making a example of what could be flightgear.org in the next time.* ** *Joomla! is OpenSource CMS which is under GNU GPL. The look of the page can be easily changed with html and css, and there are lot of GNU GPL templates to use and change out. [...] * I don't want to enter deeply in this thread (About changing FG main web page) , but I have to say that using joomla could be a very nice idea, I know joomla quite well and we could achieve a new site style with minimum effort. -- Brisa Francesco Via Gabelli 16 22077 Olgiate Comasco (CO) http://brisa.homelinux.net france...@brisa.homelinux.net __ / / / / /___ ___ / / __/ / __ / / / __ \/ __ `__ \/ __ \ / /_/ / /___ /_/ / /___/ /_/ / / / / / / /_/ / \/_/\/\/_/ /_/ /_/\/ http://www.gl-como.it My public gpg key: http://minsky.surfnet.nl:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xC67DC12DC4361693 -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Lol... That's actually a really cool picture! The reflection of the modern jet in the windows in the background. It wasn't my intention just to show a nice pic- I wanted you to just explain, why I'm so strong in convincing you that there are better ways to present the OpenSource FlightGear Project! The Ju52 was a great aircraft, safe in flying, possible to use as passenger aircraft and cargo aircraft, robuste, strong. It was the main aircraft for Lufthansa and it even flew from germany to china once a time. But time went one, and there came better aircrafts, which replaced the Ju52. Today it is the B737 which is the main aircraft for Lufthansa- and will be also replaced in the next years. Guess why Our current presentation on the web was good for a long time- but I think there are no better possibilities available. That's all. On the pic in front you could also try to see current flightgear.org- in the background a possible new flightgear.org. But I feel, that there is nothing that could convince you- so I give up now. You won! HHS -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
I too think that flightgear.org needs to be revamped. As a returning user to fg I'd say that the presentation of the project is poor but the software is great. However, it takes some time to realize the fact that fg actually is usable ... it may be due to the fact that I use a mac and other OSes have less issues before they get started. The thing is that I think that many non-programming potential users gets scared off because the very confusing collection on information on flightgear.org (I include the wiki in this statement). However, following the information flow around fg makes me realize that the software is not intended for general use and I do not think the primary goal is to attract a lot of users. I recall that someone actually pointed this fact out in one of the mailing lists a few months back. One major issue is that some posts in the mailing lists becomes a flame war as soon as someone of the major (most important?) contributors doesn't like what they read. So as a almost non-contributor I decided to contribute in flaming. In this specific case I think Curt should simply say: Get lost, I am running the flightgear.org web page, if you don't like it too bad go somewhere else because it seems to the way he feels. Those of us who have issues with such a statement should go somewhere else and create another competing web site that is open for more collaborative efforts. An example is http://wiki.flightgear.org but it is hidden and is not really a good example of where to go for ideas for an improved flightgear.org. Another example is the mac specific web site http://macflightgear.sourceforge.net/ and before this thread I could not understand why it existed. I'd like to point out that I really do not want to see a split but it is frustrating to see people like Heiko who expresses ideas of how to move the flightgear project forward gets ignored. I'd even like to see the mac specific site integrated into one common flightgear.org. I'd like to see information on how to contribute to the project. I'd like to see accessible tools for creating scenery and airports. I'd like too see more contributors to docs, web pages, code. I'd like to see a new mission statement for fligthgear emphasising on end-user experience. However, I do not expect to see much of the above in the near future. Why not follow Linus Torvalds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds) example of delegating tasks and at the same time keep some control? And I do understand, in an open-source project each contributor chooses what to work with but project management should encourage work on neglected and less sexy task in the project. Project management should also outline development paths and make decisions. At some time point projects become larger that single project members, I think fligthgear is close to that point. Flightgear simply has the potential to become too successful for its current structure. Are the fligthgear project managers up for the task taking the project one step further? To conclude, open up the maintenance and development of the flightgear.org web site to more users/developers. And, the rest will follow because you (Curt) might realize that it is actually really nice to see someone else do the job you were supposed to do. Cheers, Jari - returning to the task of getting the latest CVS committed Atlas to run on his mac Heiko Schulz wrote: Lol... That's actually a really cool picture! The reflection of the modern jet in the windows in the background. It wasn't my intention just to show a nice pic- I wanted you to just explain, why I'm so strong in convincing you that there are better ways to present the OpenSource FlightGear Project! The Ju52 was a great aircraft, safe in flying, possible to use as passenger aircraft and cargo aircraft, robuste, strong. It was the main aircraft for Lufthansa and it even flew from germany to china once a time. But time went one, and there came better aircrafts, which replaced the Ju52. Today it is the B737 which is the main aircraft for Lufthansa- and will be also replaced in the next years. Guess why Our current presentation on the web was good for a long time- but I think there are no better possibilities available. That's all. On the pic in front you could also try to see current flightgear.org- in the background a possible new flightgear.org. But I feel, that there is nothing that could convince you- so I give up now. You won! HHS -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
The last time we revamped the web site, we had someone put together a demonstration page of the new layout for others to review. We decided we liked it and decided it was worth moving forward, so that person then proceeded to convert the entire site to the new layout. It was a lot of work, but it was also big step forward over what we had before. Best regards, Curt. On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Jari Häkkinen wrote: I too think that flightgear.org needs to be revamped. As a returning user to fg I'd say that the presentation of the project is poor but the software is great. However, it takes some time to realize the fact that fg actually is usable ... it may be due to the fact that I use a mac and other OSes have less issues before they get started. The thing is that I think that many non-programming potential users gets scared off because the very confusing collection on information on flightgear.org (I include the wiki in this statement). However, following the information flow around fg makes me realize that the software is not intended for general use and I do not think the primary goal is to attract a lot of users. I recall that someone actually pointed this fact out in one of the mailing lists a few months back. One major issue is that some posts in the mailing lists becomes a flame war as soon as someone of the major (most important?) contributors doesn't like what they read. So as a almost non-contributor I decided to contribute in flaming. In this specific case I think Curt should simply say: Get lost, I am running the flightgear.org web page, if you don't like it too bad go somewhere else because it seems to the way he feels. Those of us who have issues with such a statement should go somewhere else and create another competing web site that is open for more collaborative efforts. An example is http://wiki.flightgear.org but it is hidden and is not really a good example of where to go for ideas for an improved flightgear.org. Another example is the mac specific web site http://macflightgear.sourceforge.net/ and before this thread I could not understand why it existed. I'd like to point out that I really do not want to see a split but it is frustrating to see people like Heiko who expresses ideas of how to move the flightgear project forward gets ignored. I'd even like to see the mac specific site integrated into one common flightgear.org. I'd like to see information on how to contribute to the project. I'd like to see accessible tools for creating scenery and airports. I'd like too see more contributors to docs, web pages, code. I'd like to see a new mission statement for fligthgear emphasising on end-user experience. However, I do not expect to see much of the above in the near future. Why not follow Linus Torvalds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds) example of delegating tasks and at the same time keep some control? And I do understand, in an open-source project each contributor chooses what to work with but project management should encourage work on neglected and less sexy task in the project. Project management should also outline development paths and make decisions. At some time point projects become larger that single project members, I think fligthgear is close to that point. Flightgear simply has the potential to become too successful for its current structure. Are the fligthgear project managers up for the task taking the project one step further? To conclude, open up the maintenance and development of the flightgear.org web site to more users/developers. And, the rest will follow because you (Curt) might realize that it is actually really nice to see someone else do the job you were supposed to do. Cheers, Jari - returning to the task of getting the latest CVS committed Atlas to run on his mac Heiko Schulz wrote: Lol... That's actually a really cool picture! The reflection of the modern jet in the windows in the background. It wasn't my intention just to show a nice pic- I wanted you to just explain, why I'm so strong in convincing you that there are better ways to present the OpenSource FlightGear Project! The Ju52 was a great aircraft, safe in flying, possible to use as passenger aircraft and cargo aircraft, robuste, strong. It was the main aircraft for Lufthansa and it even flew from germany to china once a time. But time went one, and there came better aircrafts, which replaced the Ju52. Today it is the B737 which is the main aircraft for Lufthansa- and will be also replaced in the next years. Guess why Our current presentation on the web was good for a long time- but I think there are no better possibilities available. That's all. On the pic in front you could also try to see current flightgear.org- in the background a possible new flightgear.org. But I feel, that there is nothing that could convince you- so I give up now. You won! HHS
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Hi, Aha... The last time we revamped the web site, we had someone put together a demonstration page of the new layout for others to review. We decided we liked it and decided it was worth moving forward, so that person then proceeded to convert the entire site to the new layout. It was a lot of work, but it was also big step forward over what we had before. and It's that easy to create a new www.flightgear.org. Just do it. That's exactly what I wanted to hear! I would suggest this to propose to the community in the FGFS-forum as well, maybe even as a small competition. I will try something the next days beside planning my holidays. Cheers HHS -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Although I don't waste time on the forum anymore , I like that idea of a web page competition.I might even give it a try :) That's exactly what I wanted to hear! I would suggest this to propose to the community in the FGFS-forum as well, maybe even as a small competition. I will try something the next days beside planning my holidays. Cheers HHS -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Fine! Everybody agree too? Von: syd adams adams@gmail.com An: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Gesendet: Samstag, den 13. Juni 2009, 21:30:50 Uhr Betreff: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo] Although I don't waste time on the forum anymore , I like that idea of a web page competition.I might even give it a try :) That's exactly what I wanted to hear! I would suggest this to propose to the community in the FGFS-forum as well, maybe even as a small competition. I will try something the next days beside planning my holidays. Cheers HHS -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Internet presentation and handling[ was FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo]
Hi, just for your information, Since yesterday I'm testing out some ways for a better aircraft/livery download page. You can see the current efforts at http://flightgear.oxyhost.com/liveries/. It's far from perfect right now, but I think it might look/work nice someday. We can extend it with whatever information we like to be shown (like author, # of engines etc.) and make the searchengine work with all of them. Regards, Gijs PS: If anyone has enough experience with Javascript to interconnect pulldown menus (so you won't be able to choose 737-300 when Airbus is selected), please contact me ;) _ Gratis emoticons voor in je Messenger! http://www.msnmessengerexperience.nl/chuck/-- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
