Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[castle]

>> My suggestion:
>> get a board from
>> http://www.diolan.com/i2c/u2c12_doc/u2c_spi_config_ss_fun.html
>
> Bookmarked, I will read more about those products, but looks to
> beexpensive, I'm going for a cheaper (more homemade) solution. Suggestion
> accepted anyway, will think about.
>
IIRC it was around $100.00, probably a bit of overkill for your project,
but definitely a lot of capability for expansion,  will drive up to 20
slaves plus a couple of GPIO pins, and other I/O features. They also
provide excellent software support for both MS and Linux

>> and 7-segment driver chips from Maxim (7219)
>
> I'm already driving the 7segments with the 7219 :-) One 7219 for each
> 5x7segments unit.
>
Thats a nice chip, easy wiring and a couple of straight forward instructions.

> Still using Arduino to do that. I'd like to build a complete KX165 unit
> replacement with a single Arduino (not that complex btw).
>

with the i2c board and an SPI bus, you need to design for longer cable
runs to all your slaved devices and handle bus termination issues to
prevent signal reflections corrupting the SPI protocol transmissions

The Arduino looks interesting, your project gave me some ideas for wiring
up the overhead panel and driving some servos and gauges, thanks for info

John


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Roberto Inzerillo]

> My suggestion:
> get a board from
> http://www.diolan.com/i2c/u2c12_doc/u2c_spi_config_ss_fun.html

Bookmarked, I will read more about those products, but looks to beexpensive, 
I'm going for a cheaper (more homemade) solution. Suggestion accepted anyway, 
will think about.


> and 7-segment driver chips from Maxim (7219)

I'm already driving the 7segments with the 7219 :-) One 7219 for each 
5x7segments unit.

Still using Arduino to do that. I'd like to build a complete KX165 unit 
replacement with a single Arduino (not that complex btw).


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[castle]

I think you're really beating yourself up the hard way. ;-)

My suggestion:

get a board from

http://www.diolan.com/i2c/u2c12_doc/u2c_spi_config_ss_fun.html

and 7-segment driver chips from Maxim (7219) with an SPI interface (drives
8 alpha-numeric per chip) or a Maxim 6954 that drives 16 alpha-numerics or
any combination of discrete LEds. Run the chips as slaves on your SPI bus
and the diolan board as a master.

ATM my 747 sim has over 37 discrete alpha-numerics (MCP, nav/radio panels,
digital clocks, etc)- one master, (1) 6954 and (3) 7219s.The 737 that
was delivered to NASA/Ames two years ago had a comparable number plus 54
discrete LEDs for warning lights, annunciators, etc

Use the Network code in FG as examples on writing a socket connection and
write a small program to run your hardware and connect to FG over a LAN. 
If you can program a micro-processor sounds like you're more than capable
of handling some higher level coding

If you get your present design approach to work, great; if not, and want
to try my scheme. glad to help with design and code, your call

Just my $0.02

John

  I purchased a few rotary encoder and a bunch of 7segment displays to
>>> build a physical replacement of the Bendix KX165. I'm using Arduino which
>>> feeds data to FGFS on a serial connection. I'd like to update
>>> "instrumentation/comm[0]/frequencies/standby-mhz" property using the
rotary
>>> encoder, I wonder what's the best strategy.
>
>> I'm working on something similar too:
>> http://leeds.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Projects/FlightSimHardware
>
> Good to know Jon, I'll be glad to talk about that with you.
> I like your hardware approach, getting your hands "dirty" on a naked
ATMega16 should be fun too :-)
>
>> The simplest solution seems to be to simply send the active and standby
frequencies whenever there's a change (up/down of the standby
frequency,
>> or swap of active/standby), and define a protocol that expects the two
frequencies, comma separated from the serial port. It doesn't appear to
matter that there's not a continuous data stream - the last received
value is used if there's no new data. I run the incoming protocol at
10Hz, which seems to give a quick enough response for the on screen
version of the display.
>
> I've settled down on sending the standby-mhz only cause I will send the
swap freq <-> button state too, that will swap the frequencies inside
fgfs
> property tree itself, without the need to send the active freq too.
Still I think it's better to make the external hardware send only the
rotary encoder's rotations from a design perspective, and not the
frequencies at all; I know that's debatable. I'm sending freq now for
easy
> of development only.
>
> I agree sending only changing values should be more desirable but
serially
> sent data should be sent all together, there's no way to send an input
chunk and leaving the others as-is; since my approach aims at
integrating
> several (not thousands but quite a few anyway!) physical input/output
devices, I think for simplicity everything should be sent at a constant
frequency. And no, I find 10hz is way too low for some other devices
(maybe frequency settings updates can tolerate a 10th of a second delay,
but it's still noticeable).
>
> I'm still wondering if you too have noticed that FGFS updates it's
property tree with not exact standby-mhz values when using such input
devices. Can you confirm? Did you solved this issue?
>
> I've also noticed you use %03.3f in an input chunk ...
I
> did try that too, I hoped that would get me a 3.3 digit format but
nothing! It's ignored. How's that at your side?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> I'd like to be able to send values from flightgear back to the panel,
so
>> that updates to the properties are reflected on the radio panel
hardware, but it appears I've got some bugs in my code at the moment
(seems like a race condition or memory leak) that cause things to lock
up or randomly reset. I need to get it hooked up to a JTAGICE to debug
it.
>> Jon
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Jon Stockill]

On 03/04/11 15:04, Roberto Inzerillo wrote:

> Good to know Jon, I'll be glad to talk about that with you.
> I like your hardware approach, getting your hands "dirty" on a naked ATMega16 
> should be fun too :-)

It's interesting, and results in *much* smaller code than you'd get 
using the arduino libraries, and I was reasonably happy with gcc anyway 
which reduced the learning curve. It's nice to be able to just type 
"make" and have the code compiled and blasted onto the chip via an AVRISP2.

I sort of went about this in the opposite direction to most people - I 
started out with the bare AVR stuff, and got an arduino at a later stage 
just for hacking quick projects with, though it's currently stuck in a 
fairly long term project:

http://leeds.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Projects/Nav_Bot_I

> I've settled down on sending the standby-mhz only cause I will send the swap 
> freq<->  button state too, that will swap the frequencies inside fgfs 
> property tree itself, without the need to send the active freq too.
> Still I think it's better to make the external hardware send only the rotary 
> encoder's rotations from a design perspective, and not the frequencies at 
> all; I know that's debatable. I'm sending freq now for easy of development 
> only.
>
> I agree sending only changing values should be more desirable but serially 
> sent data should be sent all together, there's no way to send an input chunk 
> and leaving the others as-is; since my approach aims at integrating several 
> (not thousands but quite a few anyway!) physical input/output devices, I 
> think for simplicity everything should be sent at a constant frequency. And 
> no, I find 10hz is way too low for some other devices (maybe frequency 
> settings updates can tolerate a 10th of a second delay, but it's still 
> noticeable).
>
> I'm still wondering if you too have noticed that FGFS updates it's property 
> tree with not exact standby-mhz values when using such input devices. Can you 
> confirm? Did you solved this issue?
>
> I've also noticed you use%03.3f  in an input chunk ... I did 
> try that too, I hoped that would get me a 3.3 digit format but nothing! It's 
> ignored. How's that at your side?

Actually I wrote that with reference to the protocol documentation, 
because I didn't have the exact file handy - there may be slight 
differences between that and what I actually got working. I'll update it 
when I remember to grab a copy of the original file. I did get my 
prototype working though, so it's definitely possible to format the 
numbers properly.

I need to sort out a git server too so other people can play with the 
code, currently the only access to my git repository is through ssh.

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Roberto Inzerillo]

>>   I purchased a few rotary encoder and a bunch of 7segment displays to
>> build a physical replacement of the Bendix KX165. I'm using Arduino which
>> feeds data to FGFS on a serial connection. I'd like to update
>> "instrumentation/comm[0]/frequencies/standby-mhz" property using the rotary
>> encoder, I wonder what's the best strategy.
 
> I'm working on something similar too:
> 
> http://leeds.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Projects/FlightSimHardware

Good to know Jon, I'll be glad to talk about that with you.
I like your hardware approach, getting your hands "dirty" on a naked ATMega16 
should be fun too :-)
 
> The simplest solution seems to be to simply send the active and standby 
> frequencies whenever there's a change (up/down of the standby frequency, 
> or swap of active/standby), and define a protocol that expects the two 
> frequencies, comma separated from the serial port. It doesn't appear to 
> matter that there's not a continuous data stream - the last received 
> value is used if there's no new data. I run the incoming protocol at 
> 10Hz, which seems to give a quick enough response for the on screen 
> version of the display.

I've settled down on sending the standby-mhz only cause I will send the swap 
freq <-> button state too, that will swap the frequencies inside fgfs property 
tree itself, without the need to send the active freq too.
Still I think it's better to make the external hardware send only the rotary 
encoder's rotations from a design perspective, and not the frequencies at all; 
I know that's debatable. I'm sending freq now for easy of development only.

I agree sending only changing values should be more desirable but serially sent 
data should be sent all together, there's no way to send an input chunk and 
leaving the others as-is; since my approach aims at integrating several (not 
thousands but quite a few anyway!) physical input/output devices, I think for 
simplicity everything should be sent at a constant frequency. And no, I find 
10hz is way too low for some other devices (maybe frequency settings updates 
can tolerate a 10th of a second delay, but it's still noticeable).

I'm still wondering if you too have noticed that FGFS updates it's property 
tree with not exact standby-mhz values when using such input devices. Can you 
confirm? Did you solved this issue?

I've also noticed you use %03.3f in an input chunk ... I did 
try that too, I hoped that would get me a 3.3 digit format but nothing! It's 
ignored. How's that at your side?






 
> I'd like to be able to send values from flightgear back to the panel, so 
> that updates to the properties are reflected on the radio panel 
> hardware, but it appears I've got some bugs in my code at the moment 
> (seems like a race condition or memory leak) that cause things to lock 
> up or randomly reset. I need to get it hooked up to a JTAGICE to debug it.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Jon Stockill]

On 31/03/11 21:28, Roberto Inzerillo wrote:
> Hallo everybody,
>   I purchased a few rotary encoder and a bunch of 7segment displays to build 
> a physical replacement of the Bendix KX165. I'm using Arduino which feeds 
> data to FGFS on a serial connection. I'd like to update 
> "instrumentation/comm[0]/frequencies/standby-mhz" property using the rotary 
> encoder, I wonder what's the best strategy.

I'm working on something similar too:

http://leeds.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Projects/FlightSimHardware

The simplest solution seems to be to simply send the active and standby 
frequencies whenever there's a change (up/down of the standby frequency, 
or swap of active/standby), and define a protocol that expects the two 
frequencies, comma separated from the serial port. It doesn't appear to 
matter that there's not a continuous data stream - the last received 
value is used if there's no new data. I run the incoming protocol at 
10Hz, which seems to give a quick enough response for the on screen 
version of the display.

I'd like to be able to send values from flightgear back to the panel, so 
that updates to the properties are reflected on the radio panel 
hardware, but it appears I've got some bugs in my code at the moment 
(seems like a race condition or memory leak) that cause things to lock 
up or randomly reset. I need to get it hooked up to a JTAGICE to debug it.

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2011, Roberto Inzerillo wrote:

>
 http://ppjoy.blogspot.com/
 Is this PPjoy you're talking about?

>>> That's exactly it!
>>
>> ..it's at http://ppjoy.bossstation.dnsalias.org/ ,
>
> Actually that's a very old web page, the author of PPjoy later on used
> his blog instead ... which is not very up to date anyway, latest test
> released were made on a 64bit platform (which is currently not even
> downloadable) and dates back to last year :-(
>
If you need the 64 bit version, holler and I can put it up for download.

g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Roberto Inzerillo]

>>> http://ppjoy.blogspot.com/
>>> Is this PPjoy you're talking about?
>>>
>> That's exactly it!
>
> ..it's at http://ppjoy.bossstation.dnsalias.org/ ,

Actually that's a very old web page, the author of PPjoy later on used 
his blog instead ... which is not very up to date anyway, latest test 
released were made on a 64bit platform (which is currently not even 
downloadable) and dates back to last year :-(

Anyway, I don't like the idea of being stuck with WinXX, if I have to 
choose I'd prefer staying with Linux only than with Windows only. I 
think I will keep trying to be as much platform independent as I can.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT), Gene wrote in message 
:

> On Fri, 1 Apr 2011, Roberto Inzerillo wrote:
> 
> > But I really like to make my own hack with FGFS ... I never really
> > got into ICs, C++ programming and PICs before. I'm learning a lot
> > using Arduino as middleware, it pulls down the learning curve and
> > makes people like me more confortable with the basics (and even
> > more) of electronics. Anyway, to me, making this stuff work is
> > fun :-)
> >
> Yes, the Arduino platform really lowers the bar of entry.
> 
> >
> > http://ppjoy.blogspot.com/
> > Is this PPjoy you're talking about?
> >
> That's exactly it!

..it's at http://ppjoy.bossstation.dnsalias.org/ , 
I found it from http://sim.tomsrc.com/page.php?17 .

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011, Roberto Inzerillo wrote:

> But I really like to make my own hack with FGFS ... I never really got
> into ICs, C++ programming and PICs before. I'm learning a lot using
> Arduino as middleware, it pulls down the learning curve and makes people
> like me more confortable with the basics (and even more) of electronics.
> Anyway, to me, making this stuff work is fun :-)
>
Yes, the Arduino platform really lowers the bar of entry.

>
> http://ppjoy.blogspot.com/
> Is this PPjoy you're talking about?
>
That's exactly it!

g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011, Melchior FRANZ wrote:

> * Gene Buckle -- Friday 01 April 2011:
>> Using something like Leo Bodnar's joystick interface would be a good
>> start.  I think it does work with Linux & MacOS as well as Windows.
>
> It does on Linux. The BU0836* expert for Linux is even a former
> FlightGear developer: http://members.aon.at/mfranz/bu0836a.html
> (config utility update soon to be released)
>
That's great news!  Thanks for that.  (now quit being a former FlightGear 
developer will, ya? :) )

g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2011, Harry Campigli wrote:

> Robertto,
>
> Another way is to drop a Microchip Pic in your com box, if you use one of
> the smaller 18f 40 pin versions you have heaps of analog and bidirectional
> digital io pins, and  construction wise you only need add an xtal and an
> rs232 or Ethernet chip to the Pic. Power it with 5v from your pc supply if
> you like. Easy to breadbord with off the shelf matrix board and wire wrap
> wire.
>
> You can code it in C and knock up (clone) a custom io routine to compile
> into FG which reads and writes direct to the property tree and  talk to it
> on serial or network.
>
> I run my sim hardware which is all genuine gutted radios and Boeing panels
> etc with pics in this way.
>
> You are welcome to my source code for the FG IO and the pics. You will need
> to complie FG, and the pic xcompiler is windows based not linux but seems to
> run ok in an emulator ok.
>

Harry, the big advantage with the Arduino platform is ease of programming. 
You don't need any special hardware to program the ATMega328 as it's got a 
protected bootloader on it that allows you to download the sketches 
(that's what Arduino programs are called) right to the board over a serial 
cable.  That and Arduino Shields can really expand on what you can do. 
>From 64 channel digital I/O Shields (the Centipede Shield) to an Ethernet 
Shield with a TCP/IP stack on it.

g.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Roberto Inzerillo]

>> Actually ... there is, I kinda like the idea of building my own hardware
>> Yoke and Pedals, and not use any plastic toy at all. You know, just for
>> fun, no need, out of curiosity :-)
>>
> Oh sure, I completely understand that!  What I was saying though is that
> you're going to be much better off using the built-in joystick support of
> both FG and your host OS for your primary flight controls.  Using
> something like Leo Bodnar's joystick interface would be a good start.  I
> think it does work with Linux&  MacOS as well as Windows.

I know that nice peace of hardware :-) Never had it in my hands but I 
appreciate people making their own life with these hacks :-) I read many 
posts of people being happy with it.

But I really like to make my own hack with FGFS ... I never really got 
into ICs, C++ programming and PICs before. I'm learning a lot using 
Arduino as middleware, it pulls down the learning curve and makes people 
like me more confortable with the basics (and even more) of electronics. 
Anyway, to me, making this stuff work is fun :-)


> If you're using Windows, you can use the PPJoy driver in
> order to create as many virtual joysticks as you like using the Arduino -
> that's one of the side projects I'm working on right now.  Nothing like
> using a MUX Shield for all the analogs you need! (it supports 48 10 bit
> analog channels)

http://ppjoy.blogspot.com/
Is this PPjoy you're talking about?


> Standard controls like the radio stack, flaps, etc. are "slow" controls
> that would be perfectly suited to using the telnet interface.

Partially right. I almost agree.

> You're
> quite correct in that the telnet interface isn't going to be up to the job
> for the primary flight controls.

You see, I'm making my way up interfacing non critical devices first.
I'm exploring different input/output devices, algorythms, electronic 
standard circuits, communication medias and software techniques first.
I will approach more hardcore stuff when and only if I will feel 
confortable with all the basics, not before.

Btw, I just received a few MAX7219; my 7segment displays were waiting 
for them ... let's get to the breadboard again :-)

Cheers.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Melchior FRANZ]

* Gene Buckle -- Friday 01 April 2011:
> Using something like Leo Bodnar's joystick interface would be a good
> start.  I think it does work with Linux & MacOS as well as Windows.

It does on Linux. The BU0836* expert for Linux is even a former
FlightGear developer: http://members.aon.at/mfranz/bu0836a.html
(config utility update soon to be released)

m.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Harry Campigli]

Robertto,

Another way is to drop a Microchip Pic in your com box, if you use one of
the smaller 18f 40 pin versions you have heaps of analog and bidirectional
digital io pins, and  construction wise you only need add an xtal and an
rs232 or Ethernet chip to the Pic. Power it with 5v from your pc supply if
you like. Easy to breadbord with off the shelf matrix board and wire wrap
wire.

You can code it in C and knock up (clone) a custom io routine to compile
into FG which reads and writes direct to the property tree and  talk to it
on serial or network.

I run my sim hardware which is all genuine gutted radios and Boeing panels
etc with pics in this way.

You are welcome to my source code for the FG IO and the pics. You will need
to complie FG, and the pic xcompiler is windows based not linux but seems to
run ok in an emulator ok.

Harry







On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Gene Buckle  wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Apr 2011, Roberto Inzerillo wrote:
>
> >
> >> What could you possibly be sending via telnet that would require
> >> "performance"?  Seriously, the _only_ time you should be sending data
> >> TO the simulator is if a control state changed.  I seriously doubt it's
> >> physically possible for you to fiddle with enough switches & knobs
> >> simultaneously to overload the ability of the telnet interface
> >> to process the events.  If you're trying to use the telnet interface
> >> for pitch/roll/yaw/throttle inputs, then yeah, that would be a Bad
> >> Idea(tm) - FG has good built-in joystick handling and you shouldn't
> >> try to handle that externally unless there is some kind of compelling
> >> reason to do so.
> >
> >
> > Actually ... there is, I kinda like the idea of building my own hardware
> > Yoke and Pedals, and not use any plastic toy at all. You know, just for
> > fun, no need, out of curiosity :-)
> >
> Oh sure, I completely understand that!  What I was saying though is that
> you're going to be much better off using the built-in joystick support of
> both FG and your host OS for your primary flight controls.  Using
> something like Leo Bodnar's joystick interface would be a good start.  I
> think it does work with Linux & MacOS as well as Windows.
>
> For everything else the Arduino is a great choice, especially if you
> really crank up the baud rate on it.  I would recommend at least
> 250kbits/sec.   If you're using Windows, you can use the PPJoy driver in
> order to create as many virtual joysticks as you like using the Arduino -
> that's one of the side projects I'm working on right now.  Nothing like
> using a MUX Shield for all the analogs you need! (it supports 48 10 bit
> analog channels)
>
> Standard controls like the radio stack, flaps, etc. are "slow" controls
> that would be perfectly suited to using the telnet interface.  You're
> quite correct in that the telnet interface isn't going to be up to the job
> for the primary flight controls.
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
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> by the clean end.
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011, Roberto Inzerillo wrote:

>
>> What could you possibly be sending via telnet that would require
>> "performance"?  Seriously, the _only_ time you should be sending data
>> TO the simulator is if a control state changed.  I seriously doubt it's
>> physically possible for you to fiddle with enough switches & knobs
>> simultaneously to overload the ability of the telnet interface
>> to process the events.  If you're trying to use the telnet interface
>> for pitch/roll/yaw/throttle inputs, then yeah, that would be a Bad
>> Idea(tm) - FG has good built-in joystick handling and you shouldn't
>> try to handle that externally unless there is some kind of compelling
>> reason to do so.
>
>
> Actually ... there is, I kinda like the idea of building my own hardware 
> Yoke and Pedals, and not use any plastic toy at all. You know, just for 
> fun, no need, out of curiosity :-)
>
Oh sure, I completely understand that!  What I was saying though is that 
you're going to be much better off using the built-in joystick support of 
both FG and your host OS for your primary flight controls.  Using 
something like Leo Bodnar's joystick interface would be a good start.  I 
think it does work with Linux & MacOS as well as Windows.

For everything else the Arduino is a great choice, especially if you 
really crank up the baud rate on it.  I would recommend at least 
250kbits/sec.   If you're using Windows, you can use the PPJoy driver in 
order to create as many virtual joysticks as you like using the Arduino - 
that's one of the side projects I'm working on right now.  Nothing like 
using a MUX Shield for all the analogs you need! (it supports 48 10 bit 
analog channels)

Standard controls like the radio stack, flaps, etc. are "slow" controls 
that would be perfectly suited to using the telnet interface.  You're 
quite correct in that the telnet interface isn't going to be up to the job 
for the primary flight controls.

g.

-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Roberto Inzerillo]

> What could you possibly be sending via telnet that would require 
> "performance"?  Seriously, the _only_ time you should be sending data
> TO the simulator is if a control state changed.  I seriously doubt it's 
> physically possible for you to fiddle with enough switches & knobs 
> simultaneously to overload the ability of the telnet interface
> to process the events.  If you're trying to use the telnet interface
> for pitch/roll/yaw/throttle inputs, then yeah, that would be a Bad
> Idea(tm) - FG has good built-in joystick handling and you shouldn't
> try to handle that externally unless there is some kind of compelling
> reason to do so.


Actually ... there is, I kinda like the idea of building my own hardware Yoke 
and Pedals, and not use any plastic toy at all. You know, just for fun, no 
need, out of curiosity :-)

Anyway, both input and output with a telnet connection causes that little bit 
of delay that makes it not realistic at all! No matter if it's FGFS getting its 
Yoke movements, or an external Gear Status Indicator receiving its state from 
FGFS, it all happens with that little delay that I really won't accept. I never 
got less than 1/10th of a second of delay with Telnet ... that's noticeable, 
believe me. I simply don't like it.

I think Telnet will still be very usefull for other stuff, something that does 
not need a precise synchronization with the simulator.
Feel free to provide me new hints on using proficiently Telnet+FGFS, I'm still 
open-minded about that :-)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 06:29:52 -0700 (PDT), Gene wrote in message 
:

> On Fri, 1 Apr 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Gene Buckle 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> What could you possibly be sending via telnet that would require
> >> "performance"?  Seriously, the _only_ time you should be sending
> >> data TO the simulator is if a control state changed.  I seriously
> >> doubt it's physically possible for you to fiddle with enough
> >> switches & knobs simultaneously to overload the ability of the
> >> telnet interface to process the events.  If you're trying to use
> >> the telnet interface for pitch/roll/yaw/throttle inputs, then
> >> yeah, that would be a Bad Idea(tm) - FG has good built-in joystick
> >> handling and you shouldn't try to handle that externally unless
> >> there is some kind of compelling reason to do so.
> >
> >
> > In the default configuration, the telnet module services incoming
> > connections at 5hz.  So in most cases the issue is probably more of
> > latency than bandwidth.  But if you spin a knob, you could hit
> > bandwidth issues too. Latency is probably the biggest problem.
> > Even if everything is running at 30 hz, requiring 1 frame to
> > process the input, and then a 2nd frame to send the data back out
> > to a physical display (like a physical radio stack with real
> > 7-segment displays) will end up feeling a bit laggy and not quite
> > as crisp as you'd like.
> 
> Ahh, ok.  The way I'd set it up was running the udp data pump at 30Hz

..how much faster than the frame rate do we need to go, 
"to always be ready for the next frame"?

> and I never noticed any kind of latency.  Then again, I was
> explicitly setting values when I was sending data as opposed to the
> "send freq-up, let fg figure it out" method.
> 
> Because this isn't a real-time system, you really don't want to put
> any more load on the simulator computer than you really have to. :)

..do we have RT facilities in FG now?  (RT as in "forget that 
too late frame, do the next one", not necessarily "real RT".)  

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Gene Buckle  wrote:
>
>> What could you possibly be sending via telnet that would require
>> "performance"?  Seriously, the _only_ time you should be sending data TO
>> the simulator is if a control state changed.  I seriously doubt it's
>> physically possible for you to fiddle with enough switches & knobs
>> simultaneously to overload the ability of the telnet interface to process
>> the events.  If you're trying to use the telnet interface for
>> pitch/roll/yaw/throttle inputs, then yeah, that would be a Bad Idea(tm) -
>> FG has good built-in joystick handling and you shouldn't try to handle
>> that externally unless there is some kind of compelling reason to do so.
>
>
> In the default configuration, the telnet module services incoming
> connections at 5hz.  So in most cases the issue is probably more of latency
> than bandwidth.  But if you spin a knob, you could hit bandwidth issues too.
> Latency is probably the biggest problem.  Even if everything is running at
> 30 hz, requiring 1 frame to process the input, and then a 2nd frame to send
> the data back out to a physical display (like a physical radio stack with
> real 7-segment displays) will end up feeling a bit laggy and not quite as
> crisp as you'd like.

Ahh, ok.  The way I'd set it up was running the udp data pump at 30Hz and 
I never noticed any kind of latency.  Then again, I was explicitly setting 
values when I was sending data as opposed to the "send freq-up, let fg 
figure it out" method.

Because this isn't a real-time system, you really don't want to put any 
more load on the simulator computer than you really have to. :)

I've seen a 40 year old Honeywell DDP-124 run a 737-200's worth of steam 
gauges in real time, so there's no excuse for latency with our fancy 
multi-GHz systems these days. :)

g.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Curtis Olson]

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Gene Buckle  wrote:

> What could you possibly be sending via telnet that would require
> "performance"?  Seriously, the _only_ time you should be sending data TO
> the simulator is if a control state changed.  I seriously doubt it's
> physically possible for you to fiddle with enough switches & knobs
> simultaneously to overload the ability of the telnet interface to process
> the events.  If you're trying to use the telnet interface for
> pitch/roll/yaw/throttle inputs, then yeah, that would be a Bad Idea(tm) -
> FG has good built-in joystick handling and you shouldn't try to handle
> that externally unless there is some kind of compelling reason to do so.


In the default configuration, the telnet module services incoming
connections at 5hz.  So in most cases the issue is probably more of latency
than bandwidth.  But if you spin a knob, you could hit bandwidth issues too.
 Latency is probably the biggest problem.  Even if everything is running at
30 hz, requiring 1 frame to process the input, and then a 2nd frame to send
the data back out to a physical display (like a physical radio stack with
real 7-segment displays) will end up feeling a bit laggy and not quite as
crisp as you'd like.

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

>> Von: Gene Buckle 
>>
>> I used outbound UDP from FG to send data from the sim to my host
>> interface software and then a telnet based command channel that
>> would be used to set properties.
>
> I was not happy with Telnet performance, not even after pumping it's 
> speed up. It has some advantages, I could send only changing values to 
> fgfs and not everything/always, but its poor reactivity makes it a poor 
> choice for more interactive input/output. I'm working on the KX165 now, 
> but it's only a piece of the puzzle, I have yoke/pedals/indicators in 
> mind too.
>
What could you possibly be sending via telnet that would require 
"performance"?  Seriously, the _only_ time you should be sending data TO 
the simulator is if a control state changed.  I seriously doubt it's 
physically possible for you to fiddle with enough switches & knobs 
simultaneously to overload the ability of the telnet interface to process 
the events.  If you're trying to use the telnet interface for 
pitch/roll/yaw/throttle inputs, then yeah, that would be a Bad Idea(tm) - 
FG has good built-in joystick handling and you shouldn't try to handle 
that externally unless there is some kind of compelling reason to do so.

g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Roberto Inzerillo]

Hallo Torsten :-)
 in the meanwhile I've reviewed what I've done in the past with the Seneca NLG, 
that NASAL code ... it was fun :-) I think I'll try this approach first.


> Von: Torsten Dreyer 
>
> I suggest not to send the raw encoder data to FlightGear but to compute the 
> frequencies internally in your arduino and send the result as a frequency
> or channel to fgfs.
> ...
> I use I2C communication between my PC and the microcontrollers, but that
> could 
> easily be changed to a serial-over-usb protocol for the Arduino.

It's a design decision, my first idea was to use the external hardware as a 
replacement for physical input/output devices, no intention to put too much 
logic in there other than what pertains to what knobs/displays/levers 
physically do. I would leave the rest of the processing into FlightGear.

That means something like that:
- a frequency selector knob knob rotates --> the rotation gets passed to FGFS 
that then makes the internal instrument logic do what it's originally meant to 
do.
- an FGFS frequency display changes value --> the value gets passed to the 
external hardware that updates it's state accordingly.


Another example just to be clear: I don't want to build a Yoke physical 
replacement that sends aircraft attitude values to FGFS, it should only send 
it's physical movements and let FGFS do the rest of the simulation processing.

That way, the physical external hardware should be a simple replacement of 
those 3d elements that we generally controll using mouse clicks on the screen.

I guess I will move more of the instrumentation's internal functionalities to 
the external hardware/software in the future anyway (I'm already tempted now), 
but according to my plan that has to be done in a second step.


Anyway, I accept your suggestion and I will investigate in what practically 
implies sending the frequency to FlightGear instead of sending the knob 
rotation alone; but I will leave that for a second stage project.


> Von: Gene Buckle 
>
> I used outbound UDP from FG to send data from the sim to my host
> interface software and then a telnet based command channel that
> would be used to set properties. 

I was not happy with Telnet performance, not even after pumping it's speed up. 
It has some advantages, I could send only changing values to fgfs and not 
everything/always, but its poor reactivity makes it a poor choice for more 
interactive input/output.
I'm working on the KX165 now, but it's only a piece of the puzzle, I have 
yoke/pedals/indicators in mind too.



> Von: Curtis Olson 
>
> I don't know if this is the best approach or not, but when I
> tackled this task for the ATC Flight Simulator interface 
> (FAA certified flight sim based on FlightGear) I dug in and
> wrote some C++ code.

I find that intriguing (not less than Torsten's i2c/ATMEL prototype) and I will 
think about that, but I'm still not very confortable with C++ ... I'm writing 
C++ code now first time in my life, I'll try and make things simple at first.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Torsten Dreyer]

> Hallo everybody,
>  I purchased a few rotary encoder and a bunch of 7segment displays to build
>  a physical replacement of the Bendix KX165. I'm using Arduino which feeds
>  data to FGFS on a serial connection. I'd like to update
>  "instrumentation/comm[0]/frequencies/standby-mhz" property using the
>  rotary encoder, I wonder what's the best strategy.
Roberto

I suggest not to send the raw encoder data to FlightGear but to compute the 
frequencies internally in your arduino and send the result as a frequency or 
channel to fgfs.
I used this here:
http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=Howto:_Build_your_own_procedure_trainer#Radio_Stack
Sources available here:
https://gitorious.org/flightgear-pmpt/fg155

I use I2C communication between my PC and the microcontrollers, but that could 
easily be changed to a serial-over-usb protocol for the Arduino.

best
 Torsten

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

Here's the protocol file I was using - this basically sets up FG to pump 
this data out via UDP at whatever update rate you want.

I used outbound UDP from FG to send data from the sim to my host interface 
software and then a telnet based command channel that would be used to set 
properties.  The command line example shown above will set up the command 
channel on port 5500 and the UDP data pump on port 5501.

I hope you find this useful!

g.





  
   
  

  

   

newline


 com1frq
 float
 COM1_FRQ=%03.3f
 /instrumentation/comm/frequencies/selected-mhz



 com1-serviceable
 bool
 COM1_SRV=%d
 /instrumentation/comm/serviceable



 com2frq
 float
 COM2_FRQ=%03.3f
 /instrumentation/comm[1]/frequencies/selected-mhz



 com2-serviceable
 bool
 COM2_SRV=%d
 /instrumentation/comm[1]/serviceable



 nav1frq
 float
 NAV1_FRQ=%03.3f
 /instrumentation/nav/frequencies/selected-mhz



 nav1-serviceable
 bool
 NAV1_SRV=%d
 /instrumentation/nav/serviceable



 nav2frq
 float
 NAV2_FRQ=%03.3f
 /instrumentation/nav[1]/frequencies/selected-mhz



 nav2-serviceable
 bool
 NAV2_SRV=%d
 /instrumentation/nav[1]/serviceable



 ptt-key-status
 int
 PTT=%d
 /instrumentation/comm/ptt



 transponder-code
 int
 TRANSPONDER=%d
 /instrumentation/transponder/id-code



 airspeed
 float
 IAS=%04.1f
 /velocities/airspeed-kt



 groundspeed
 float
 GS=%04.1f
 /velocities/groundspeed-kt



 pos-longitude-deg
 float
 LON=%03.6f
 /position/longitude-deg



 pos-latitude-deg
 float
 LAT=%03.6f
 /position/latitude-deg



 pos-alt
 float
 ALT=%05.0f
 /position/altitude-ft



 heading
 float
 HEAD=%03.1f
 /instrumentation/heading-indicator/indicated-heading-deg


   

  




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Gene Buckle]

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011, Roberto Inzerillo wrote:

> Hallo everybody, I purchased a few rotary encoder and a bunch of 
> 7segment displays to build a physical replacement of the Bendix KX165. 
> I'm using Arduino which feeds data to FGFS on a serial connection. I'd 
> like to update "instrumentation/comm[0]/frequencies/standby-mhz" 
> property using the rotary encoder, I wonder what's the best strategy.
>
> My current setup lets me read the rotary encoder rotation (it's a signed 
> int value that measures it's direction and the amount of rotation; e.g. 
> +3 equals three steps CW, -1 is 1 step CCW and 0 means it's not 
> rotating) and send it to fgsf at 30Hz. This encoder is meant to be the 
> KX165 physical equivalent of the frequency selector knob.
>
I would only send the data if it's changed.  No sense in running the pump 
unless there's something to send.

> I can send those values to FGFS but that's useless as it is now; I 
> should make FGFS increment the "standby-mhz" property accordingly; 
> problem is that using the generic protocol to feed those data I can't 
> use the same approach as in kx165-1.xml where the "property-adjust" 
> (with a proper  value) command has been used.
>
You might want to trigger an up/down event via Nasal that will do what you 
need.

I did something similar to this with the hardware interface software I 
built a few years ago.

Here's the Lua end of it:

---
-- Cockpit Interface Master - Copyright 2008 by Gene Buckle
-- Controls COM1 frequency selection
---

-- Get the currently selected frequency from the simulator.
Com1Freq = CIM:GetStringValue("COM1_FRQ")
if Com1Freq == "" then
CIM:SetValue(0, "Com1Freq was blank for this cycle.")
return
end
-- Choose the correct frequency "step" based upon what the current
-- simulator needs.
if SimType == "FlightGear" then
kHz_offset = .0250
Mhz_Offset = 1.0
elseif SimType == "MSFS" then
kHz_offset = 2
Mhz_Offset = 100
else
CIM:SetValue(0, "Invalid SimType - >" .. SimType .. "<-")
return
end

-- The next four if..then blocks control how the step up/step down
-- buttons work for gross (Mhz) and fine (kHz) tuning of the COM
-- radio.
-- The routines are written to eliminate "keybounce" by ensuring that
-- the user has released the button before the script terminates.

-- The "CIM:SetValue(0,...)" calls are an easy way to see how the code is 
operating
-- if there is a problem with the simulator.

if CIM:GetInput("KHZ_DOWN") == true then
repeat
  -- do nothing
until CIM:GetInput("KHZ_DOWN") == false
Com1Freq = Com1Freq - kHz_offset
CIM:SetStringValue("COM1_FRQ", Com1Freq)
CIM:SetValue(0, "KHZ_DOWN ->" .. Com1Freq .. "<-")
return
end

if CIM:GetInput("KHZ_UP") == true then
repeat
  -- do nothing
until CIM:GetInput("KHZ_UP") == false
Com1Freq = Com1Freq + kHz_offset
CIM:SetStringValue("COM1_FRQ", Com1Freq)
CIM:SetValue(0, "KHZ_UP - " .. Com1Freq)

return
end

if CIM:GetInput("MHZ_UP") == true then
repeat
  -- do nothing
until CIM:GetInput("MHZ_UP") == false
Com1Freq = Com1Freq + Mhz_Offset
CIM:SetStringValue("COM1_FRQ", Com1Freq)
CIM:SetValue(0, "MHZ_UP - " .. Com1Freq)
return
end

if CIM:GetInput("MHZ_DOWN") == true then
repeat
  -- do nothing
until CIM:GetInput("MHZ_DOWN") == false
Com1Freq = Com1Freq - Mhz_Offset
CIM:SetStringValue("COM1_FRQ", Com1Freq)
CIM:SetValue(0, "MHZ_DOWN - " .. Com1Freq)
return
end

--

If I can find the files for the FG end of things I'll post them.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Curtis Olson]

I don't know if this is the best approach or not, but when I tackled this
task for the ATC Flight Simulator interface (FAA certified flight sim based
on FlightGear) I dug in and wrote some C++ code.

I created a structure where I could load an xml file that associated the raw
physical hardware (switch number, etc) with a flightgear property.  The C++
code would run every frame, read the hardware, and then do the appropriate
magic to figure out the user intent, and then update the actual FlightGear
properties.

This has worked out pretty well and been very solid ... and as a plus, you
can directly handle some -- shall we say -- creative hardware layout
schemes.

I started all this before Nasal really existed or at least before it was
widely used.  These days you might think about reading the raw switch states
into some branch of the property tree you create.  Then setup some nasal
code that examines the switch states each frame and does whatever
computation is necessary to interpret your hardware and update the property
values correctly.

Best regards,

Curt.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Roberto Inzerillo  wrote:

> Hallo everybody,
>  I purchased a few rotary encoder and a bunch of 7segment displays to build
> a physical replacement of the Bendix KX165. I'm using Arduino which feeds
> data to FGFS on a serial connection. I'd like to update
> "instrumentation/comm[0]/frequencies/standby-mhz" property using the rotary
> encoder, I wonder what's the best strategy.
>
> My current setup lets me read the rotary encoder rotation (it's a signed
> int value that measures it's direction and the amount of rotation; e.g. +3
> equals three steps CW, -1 is 1 step CCW and 0 means it's not rotating) and
> send it to fgsf at 30Hz. This encoder is meant to be the KX165 physical
> equivalent of the frequency selector knob.
>
> I can send those values to FGFS but that's useless as it is now; I should
> make FGFS increment the "standby-mhz" property accordingly; problem is that
> using the generic protocol to feed those data I can't use the same approach
> as in kx165-1.xml where the "property-adjust" (with a proper  value)
> command has been used.
>
> I wonder how could I attack this part of the problem. Suggestions?
>
> My first thought was to feed the raw increment to fgfs, store it in a
> custom property and let fgfs run a nasal script to update standby-mhz
> accordingly in the background. I'm only guessing now, I don't even know if
> it's even possible.
>
> This scenario is of course of great interest to me since I'd like to use
> those rotary encoders for more stuff on FGFS.
>
> cheers,
>  Roberto
> --
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>
>
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[Flightgear-devel] KX165 - serially feeding data to increment a property value. How?

[Roberto Inzerillo]

Hallo everybody,
 I purchased a few rotary encoder and a bunch of 7segment displays to build a 
physical replacement of the Bendix KX165. I'm using Arduino which feeds data to 
FGFS on a serial connection. I'd like to update 
"instrumentation/comm[0]/frequencies/standby-mhz" property using the rotary 
encoder, I wonder what's the best strategy.

My current setup lets me read the rotary encoder rotation (it's a signed int 
value that measures it's direction and the amount of rotation; e.g. +3 equals 
three steps CW, -1 is 1 step CCW and 0 means it's not rotating) and send it to 
fgsf at 30Hz. This encoder is meant to be the KX165 physical equivalent of the 
frequency selector knob.

I can send those values to FGFS but that's useless as it is now; I should make 
FGFS increment the "standby-mhz" property accordingly; problem is that using 
the generic protocol to feed those data I can't use the same approach as in 
kx165-1.xml where the "property-adjust" (with a proper  value) command 
has been used.

I wonder how could I attack this part of the problem. Suggestions?

My first thought was to feed the raw increment to fgfs, store it in a custom 
property and let fgfs run a nasal script to update standby-mhz accordingly in 
the background. I'm only guessing now, I don't even know if it's even possible.

This scenario is of course of great interest to me since I'd like to use those 
rotary encoders for more stuff on FGFS.

cheers,
  Roberto
-- 
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