Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, leee wrote: On Thursday 01 February 2007 00:35, Curtis Olson wrote: For what it's worth, if someone wanted to adapt one of our existing fdm's to do automotive vehicle dynamics, that would be a cool thing. It had occurred to me that YASim could be (ab)used to fake a car. I have been using a setup for testing/measuring fuselage drag of the Chinook, aka the chinook bus. I just added a thruster element down at the rear wheels and a adjusted few other things. The original rotors were replaced by a miniature rotor the size of a cpu fan, just to keep yasim in helicopter mode. It actually autorotated sometimes. It was also during one of these test runs I had an accident with a cow (the new greenhorn breed) and crashed. ;) That was before the recent ground bumpiness/friction patch so I didn't always bother to stay on the runway. But what cannot be simulated currently, in the above manner, is powerskidding with the driving wheels. There is also no gear box model. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Thursday 01 February 2007 09:55, Joacim Persson wrote: On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, leee wrote: On Thursday 01 February 2007 00:35, Curtis Olson wrote: For what it's worth, if someone wanted to adapt one of our existing fdm's to do automotive vehicle dynamics, that would be a cool thing. It had occurred to me that YASim could be (ab)used to fake a car. I have been using a setup for testing/measuring fuselage drag of the Chinook, aka the chinook bus. I just added a thruster element down at the rear wheels and a adjusted few other things. The original rotors were replaced by a miniature rotor the size of a cpu fan, just to keep yasim in helicopter mode. It actually autorotated sometimes. It was also during one of these test runs I had an accident with a cow (the new greenhorn breed) and crashed. ;) That was before the recent ground bumpiness/friction patch so I didn't always bother to stay on the runway. But what cannot be simulated currently, in the above manner, is powerskidding with the driving wheels. There is also no gear box model. Did you use a single thruster or a pair, located at each wheel - nasal differential code anyone? But regarding the driving wheels and gear box - well - I guess we shouldn't expect too much, bearing in mind that it's a flight sim:) LeeE - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On 1/31/07, Joacim Persson wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Tony Pelton wrote: and as a passing comment, i wonder if one of the train simulators might be a better train simulator that flightgear for your intended purpose ... Or better still, a car simulator. (Assuming the mentioned train crossing signs are to be viewed from the driving seats of moving cars.) Perhaps the freeware racing simulator Torcs (www.torcs.org) could be something for the psychology professor's experiment? Torcs uses plib, so it can load the same 3d fileformats FlightGear can, and also has physic models of road vehicles ready, and far better looking roads than FG. I appreciate the suggestions, but FlightGear will be perfect for this project. :-) We only need a small area of land/road/track coverage ... just the approach of a single road to a single railway crossing, plus some context and we have a guy who can build all that for this project. We need to carefully animate, and automate the train motion ... something I can easily do in FlightGear, but it's unclear if that is possible in a proprietary train sim. I looked at torcs pretty closely a few years ago and back then it was all about designing robot race cars that race themselves. It didn't have the fine grained level of object control and sign animation that we need for this project. In addition, we need to create our own custom crossing approach signage and animate it based on the train position. Again, should be a breeze with nasal and flightgear. We can build all the models we need and get things done, I was just wondering [originatlly] if anyone had any train models in the back pocket. Of course Lee would have something. :-) But I think we need to find/build something that would be typically found on north american train tracks. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ http://www.flightgear.org Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Tuesday 30 January 2007 21:59, AJ MacLeod wrote: On Tuesday 30 January 2007 19:20, leee wrote: I did a UK Class 56 diesel loco for a picture I was working on and you're welcome to that but I didn't need any wagons for the pic so I cant help you there. Perhaps a 'light' engine movement would sufice :) There's a wip image of it at http://www.spatial.freeserve.co.uk/V5/im_Class56.008.003.jpg Hi Lee, That is really stunning - I almost want to climb aboard :-) Cheers, AJ Thanks:) If you need something to drive down to the railway station... http://www.spatial.freeserve.co.uk/V3/im_GT40.16.jpg That's a very old pic btw - pre SDS - all done in nurbs + a few solid geometry bits using the earlier V3 windows version of the s/w running under wine. LeeE - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Wednesday 31 January 2007 14:05, Curtis Olson wrote: On 1/31/07, Joacim Persson wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Tony Pelton wrote: and as a passing comment, i wonder if one of the train simulators might be a better train simulator that flightgear for your intended purpose ... Or better still, a car simulator. (Assuming the mentioned train crossing signs are to be viewed from the driving seats of moving cars.) Perhaps the freeware racing simulator Torcs (www.torcs.org) could be something for the psychology professor's experiment? Torcs uses plib, so it can load the same 3d fileformats FlightGear can, and also has physic models of road vehicles ready, and far better looking roads than FG. I appreciate the suggestions, but FlightGear will be perfect for this project. :-) We only need a small area of land/road/track coverage ... just the approach of a single road to a single railway crossing, plus some context and we have a guy who can build all that for this project. We need to carefully animate, and automate the train motion ... something I can easily do in FlightGear, but it's unclear if that is possible in a proprietary train sim. I looked at torcs pretty closely a few years ago and back then it was all about designing robot race cars that race themselves. It didn't have the fine grained level of object control and sign animation that we need for this project. In addition, we need to create our own custom crossing approach signage and animate it based on the train position. Again, should be a breeze with nasal and flightgear. We can build all the models we need and get things done, I was just wondering [originatlly] if anyone had any train models in the back pocket. Of course Lee would have something. :-) But I think we need to find/build something that would be typically found on north american train tracks. Regards, Curt. Saves me a lot of work:) but seriously though, I agree that if the idea of the project is to test human responses you really don't want to introduce irrelevant anomalies into the equation i.e. a U.K loco in a U.S. scenario. I could make something suitable, given the drawings, but it would take a lot of time and effort. The best bet might be to buy the models if no free ones can be found - I'll have a bit of a dig around, see what I can find and get back to you. LeeE - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On 1/31/07, alexis bory wrote: leee a écrit : Thanks:) If you need something to drive down to the railway station... http://www.spatial.freeserve.co.uk/V3/im_GT40.16.jpg wow :) Did you also work on the FDM ? And on the cockpit ;) For what it's worth, if someone wanted to adapt one of our existing fdm's to do automotive vehicle dynamics, that would be a cool thing. I don't know if it would make sense to do it as an extension to existing code, or start from scratch. We've got the aerodynamic effects down, but we'd need to add engine, transmission modeling and add the ability to drive the tires directly. We have some semi-intersting driving scenarios developed in house, and I hope to soon start a work project to turn hi-res road data into 3d databases. Curt. -- Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ http://www.flightgear.org Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Thursday 01 February 2007 00:50, leee wrote: On Thursday 01 February 2007 00:35, Curtis Olson wrote: On 1/31/07, alexis bory wrote: leee a écrit : Thanks:) If you need something to drive down to the railway station... http://www.spatial.freeserve.co.uk/V3/im_GT40.16.jpg wow :) Did you also work on the FDM ? And on the cockpit ;) For what it's worth, if someone wanted to adapt one of our existing fdm's to do automotive vehicle dynamics, that would be a cool thing. I don't know if it would make sense to do it as an extension to existing code, or start from scratch. We've got the aerodynamic effects down, but we'd need to add engine, transmission modeling and add the ability to drive the tires directly. We have some semi-intersting driving scenarios developed in house, and I hope to soon start a work project to turn hi-res road data into 3d databases. Curt. It had occurred to me that YASim could be (ab)used to fake a car. The gear handling would be fine for the wheels and suspension - don't see too many problems there. Ensuring it didn't take off might be trickier though. Jet powered dragster anyone? What was that John? (U.K joke) LeeE Doh! I meant 'What was that Richard? LeeE - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
Leee writes It had occurred to me that YASim could be (ab)used to fake a car. The gear handling would be fine for the wheels and suspension - don't see too many problems there. Ensuring it didn't take off might be trickier though. Why not look at Torcs It is built ontop of PLIB so might be relatively easy to snag some code and models http://torcs.sourceforge.net/ Norman - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Thursday 01 February 2007 01:10, Norman Vine wrote: Leee writes It had occurred to me that YASim could be (ab)used to fake a car. The gear handling would be fine for the wheels and suspension - don't see too many problems there. Ensuring it didn't take off might be trickier though. Why not look at Torcs It is built ontop of PLIB so might be relatively easy to snag some code and models http://torcs.sourceforge.net/ Norman There probably is some useful stuff in torcs - I had a play with it some time ago - but the biggest attraction to me for keeping it in FG is all the FG scenery/terrain. No need for race tracks - just head off into the desert:) Around the world off-road:) Heh - terrasynch would be able to keep up even on dial-up:) LeeE - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Trains?
A professor at the University of Minnesota is looking at doing a project to evaluate several different combinations of train crossing signs. This will be a psychology style experiment where you set up maybe a dozen different scenarios, run boat loads of people through, and then take statistics on what combination of signage works the best and what people like the best ... something like that ... I don't attempt to understand the world of psychology ... :-) They want a system that is mostly non-interactive (so that they can have a room full of people watch the scenario at the same time.) Essentially you are driving in a car (which you don't see), you come up to a train crossing, there is a train actually crossing in front of you, and the signage does the appropriate thing ... in this case it's either a static sign, or a sign with different combinations of blinking lights. FlightGear seems like a perfect platform to rig up their experiment. It's free, it can run on just about any OS, it only requires a single computer, we can script the view point motion, we can script and animate the signs (this is daytime only), we can script and animate the train, it should be all doable with some 3d models and a few nasal scripts. There's a guy here who can do the environment model and the signage. I'm planning to set up the xml animation files and do the nasal scripting. So my question is this ... to save us some time, does anyone out there have a 3d train model in their back pocket they would be willing to contribute to FlightGear? I'm thinking diesel locomotive, some sort of box/cargo cars, something in plausibly north american markings. The train will be travelling in a perfectly straight line across perfectly level tracks so we don't have to worry about the complex linkages between the cars ... the whole train can be animated as a single model, but it would be nice if the wheels spun relative to the train speed. Thanks, Curt. -- Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ http://www.flightgear.org Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Tuesday 30 January 2007 15:33, Curtis Olson wrote: A professor at the University of Minnesota is looking at doing a project to evaluate several different combinations of train crossing signs. This will be a psychology style experiment where you set up maybe a dozen different scenarios, run boat loads of people through, and then take statistics on what combination of signage works the best and what people like the best ... something like that ... I don't attempt to understand the world of psychology ... :-) They want a system that is mostly non-interactive (so that they can have a room full of people watch the scenario at the same time.) Essentially you are driving in a car (which you don't see), you come up to a train crossing, there is a train actually crossing in front of you, and the signage does the appropriate thing ... in this case it's either a static sign, or a sign with different combinations of blinking lights. FlightGear seems like a perfect platform to rig up their experiment. It's free, it can run on just about any OS, it only requires a single computer, we can script the view point motion, we can script and animate the signs (this is daytime only), we can script and animate the train, it should be all doable with some 3d models and a few nasal scripts. There's a guy here who can do the environment model and the signage. I'm planning to set up the xml animation files and do the nasal scripting. So my question is this ... to save us some time, does anyone out there have a 3d train model in their back pocket they would be willing to contribute to FlightGear? I'm thinking diesel locomotive, some sort of box/cargo cars, something in plausibly north american markings. The train will be travelling in a perfectly straight line across perfectly level tracks so we don't have to worry about the complex linkages between the cars ... the whole train can be animated as a single model, but it would be nice if the wheels spun relative to the train speed. Thanks, Curt. Hi Curt, [second attempt at posting] I did a UK Class 56 diesel loco for a picture I was working on and you're welcome to that but I didn't need any wagons for the pic so I cant help you there. Perhaps a 'light' engine movement would sufice :) There's a wip image of it at http://www.spatial.freeserve.co.uk/V5/im_Class56.008.003.jpg The model wouldn't be usable in FG in it's current form, as it's made from a combination of SDS, NURBS and Analytical solid objects and it's in RS3D format so I'd have to convert it all to SDS before I could export and convert it to AC3D format. The conversion would take some effort because some of the modelling techniques I've used only work well with the particular object formats I've used, for example, I've used boolean NOT or trim curves to cut holes in surfaces (can't remember exactly which technique I used) but if were to make that surface and it's hole AC3D compatible I'd actually have to model the hole. You can see this in the image linked to above in the grills in the side of the roof - the roof surface is SDS but the holes are boolean/trim-curve cut-outs and the grill 'slats' are analytic cubes. Actually, now that I've thought about it while writing this, I'd probably do the grills with a texture, rendered from the model itself, Anyway, let me know if you want it (it's a UK loco remember, not a US one, so just that fact might cause some confusion among the viewers) and if so, what sort of time-scale would it be needed by. LeeE - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Tuesday 30 January 2007 19:20, leee wrote: I did a UK Class 56 diesel loco for a picture I was working on and you're welcome to that but I didn't need any wagons for the pic so I cant help you there. Perhaps a 'light' engine movement would sufice :) There's a wip image of it at http://www.spatial.freeserve.co.uk/V5/im_Class56.008.003.jpg Hi Lee, That is really stunning - I almost want to climb aboard :-) Cheers, AJ - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On 1/30/07, Curtis Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FlightGear seems like a perfect platform to rig up their experiment. So my question is this ... to save us some time, does anyone out there have a 3d train model in their back pocket they would be willing to contribute to FlightGear? i can't answer your question directly, but indirectly i could suggest the following : Have you looked in the train simulator geek communities for content ? There are (2) train simulators that I know of, one by Microsoft, and the other by a publisher called Auran out of australia. Both simulations have communities of geeks, just like flight simulators do, and there are people who develop trains and addons, just like in the flight sim community, as freeware. you may look around those communities and fan sites to see if you can find anything to play with. i believe both simulators use GMax models natively ? not sure if there is a materials path from GMax to something flight gear can use. and as a passing comment, i wonder if one of the train simulators might be a better train simulator that flightgear for your intended purpose ... Curt. Tony - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
leee wrote: The model wouldn't be usable in FG in it's current form, as it's made from a combination of SDS, NURBS and Analytical solid objects and it's in RS3D format so I'd have to convert it all to SDS before I could export and convert it to AC3D format. I might proven to be wrong. If not, then you're not limited to the AC3D format for placing models in FlightGear. I assume you should be able to throw anything at it that OpenSceneGraph has a loader for. Not that I vote for building terribly complex models for FlightGear but in rare cases a different format might be a solution. I'd simply check with OSG and try it, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trains?
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Tony Pelton wrote: and as a passing comment, i wonder if one of the train simulators might be a better train simulator that flightgear for your intended purpose ... Or better still, a car simulator. (Assuming the mentioned train crossing signs are to be viewed from the driving seats of moving cars.) Perhaps the freeware racing simulator Torcs (www.torcs.org) could be something for the psychology professor's experiment? Torcs uses plib, so it can load the same 3d fileformats FlightGear can, and also has physic models of road vehicles ready, and far better looking roads than FG. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
