Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parse error: C:/Program Files/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topicforum=198topic_id=442mode=full Changing the content inside fgfsrc didn't work. I am out of idea. =( I think he's using fgrun. That utility will always overwrite the contents of the .fgfsrc file on Unix. Maybe the same thing happens on Windows with the system.fgfsrc file? While we are at it: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topicforum=198topic_id=446mode=full I can't find any similar problem in the archive. If I understand this problem correctly then he has to add the additional scenery to get the other airports to show up. Erik ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
This reminds me of file permissions problem... Chris Tulloch On Saturday 11 December 2004 12:30 pm, Francis X. Maier wrote: Last login: Sat Dec 11 10:21:44 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ cd /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ls FlightGear_Resource data OpenAL_Installer_OSX.dmgfgfs README.txt run_fgfs Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ./run_fgfs ./run_fgfs: line 1: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs: No such file or directory Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ Doesn't make any sense. Any ideas what you did differently? Again, sorry to bother you, but this is bedeviling me, and the program looks great. Fran Fran, ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
Erik Hofman wrote: Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topicforum=198topic_id=442m ode=full Changing the content inside fgfsrc didn't work. I am out of idea. =( I think he's using fgrun. That utility will always overwrite the contents of the .fgfsrc file on Unix. Maybe the same thing happens on Windows with the system.fgfsrc file? Yes, it does. Vivian ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On Sunday, 12 December 2004 11:51, Vivian Meazza wrote: Erik Hofman wrote: I think he's using fgrun. That utility will always overwrite the contents of the .fgfsrc file on Unix. Maybe the same thing happens on Windows with the system.fgfsrc file? Yes, it does. Yet another reason why I would love to see everything integrated into the FlightGear binary while still retaining the command line parameters for the hard core users. All these little bits and pieces of code scattered around in various apps makes it a real sticky-tape and bubble gum affair. Being able to select everything from inside the sim is going to make a lot of problems go away especially for noobs who don't know what a command line is. For instance airports that are in addon scenery will not appear or be selectable in FG until the scenery is installed and a new airport index is built (like MSFS). How difficult would it be to get FG to load a new aircraft without restarting? BTW : The airport selection in FG is broken. It just leaves me at the aiport I started at but it's an improvement over the fatal errors I used to get. Paul ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:16:03 +0200, Paul wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sunday, 12 December 2004 11:51, Vivian Meazza wrote: Erik Hofman wrote: I think he's using fgrun. That utility will always overwrite the contents of the .fgfsrc file on Unix. Maybe the same thing happens on Windows with the system.fgfsrc file? Yes, it does. Yet another reason why I would love to see everything integrated into the FlightGear binary ..I disagree, big fat binaries get fat and bloated and draggy. while still retaining the command line parameters for the hard core users. ..it is, type !! or history to chk your command history. All these little bits and pieces of code scattered around in various apps makes it a real sticky-tape and bubble gum affair. ..I disagree, see above. Below, you have points I see as valid. Being able to select everything from inside the sim is going to make a lot of problems go away especially for noobs who don't know what a command line is. For instance airports that are in addon scenery will not appear or be selectable in FG until the scenery is installed and a new airport index is built (like MSFS). How difficult would it be to get FG to load a new aircraft without restarting? BTW : The airport selection in FG is broken. It just leaves me at the aiport I started at but it's an improvement over the fatal errors I used to get. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On Sunday 12 Dec 2004 11:16, Paul Surgeon wrote: Being able to select everything from inside the sim is going to make a lot of problems go away especially for noobs who don't know what a command line is. I'll bet tho that it would increase the incidence of people moaning that the aircraft is 'broken' and 'always pulling to the left'. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On Sunday, 12 December 2004 14:51, Dave Martin wrote: On Sunday 12 Dec 2004 11:16, Paul Surgeon wrote: Being able to select everything from inside the sim is going to make a lot of problems go away especially for noobs who don't know what a command line is. I'll bet tho that it would increase the incidence of people moaning that the aircraft is 'broken' and 'always pulling to the left'. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting we should prevent people from using single engine aircraft all together? Why not just remove the 172, PA-28, etc from FG and be done with it? M$FS has realism sliders that affect aircraft handling and they are set to noob by default. It works just fine and I don't see why we can't do the same. Paul ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On Sunday, 12 December 2004 14:02, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:16:03 +0200, Paul wrote in message Yet another reason why I would love to see everything integrated into the FlightGear binary ..I disagree, big fat binaries get fat and bloated and draggy. I don't see how adding a flight planner, aircraft selection and other useful features is going to bloat the code so much that is runs like a snail. Maybe if we were writing a mini OS into FG it would slow things down but you'll have to add millions of lines of code before it becomes a real issue. FG is written in C++ and not some crappy interpreted language like VB. According to your reasoning we should remove all the menu entries such as the weather selection and the property browser so that FG runs faster. Paul ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
I don't think so; I've doublechecked my permissions. Fran On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Chris Tulloch wrote: This reminds me of file permissions problem... Chris Tulloch On Saturday 11 December 2004 12:30 pm, Francis X. Maier wrote: Last login: Sat Dec 11 10:21:44 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ cd /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ls FlightGear_Resource data OpenAL_Installer_OSX.dmgfgfs README.txt run_fgfs Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ./run_fgfs ./run_fgfs: line 1: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs: No such file or directory Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ Doesn't make any sense. Any ideas what you did differently? Again, sorry to bother you, but this is bedeviling me, and the program looks great. Fran Fran, ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
I know little about the mac, but I can tell right away that the file path you have is wrong: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs If you've only ever dealt with clickable folders, the concept of file paths might be a bit foreign, but absolute paths (and I think you want absolute, not relative) need to start with a /. It sounds to me like the current mac version requires unix experience to have a chance at running it. I suspect most Mac people have never popped the hood on OSX (and the hood wasn't really poppable on previous versions anyway) so they don't know what to do when the instructions say edit such and such a file and replace blah-blah-blah with the path to your home directory. Essentially we are asking them to pop the hood and rewire their car's engine to get fgfs working. We probably need some sort of better packaging for Mac if we want to get anywhere there. (This stuff of course really isn't all that hard, but for someone with absolutely zero unix experience, you really have to spell out every keystroke in order.) Regards, Curt. Francis X. Maier wrote: I don't think so; I've doublechecked my permissions. Fran On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Chris Tulloch wrote: This reminds me of file permissions problem... Chris Tulloch On Saturday 11 December 2004 12:30 pm, Francis X. Maier wrote: Last login: Sat Dec 11 10:21:44 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ cd /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ls FlightGear_Resource data OpenAL_Installer_OSX.dmgfgfs README.txt run_fgfs Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ./run_fgfs ./run_fgfs: line 1: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs: No such file or directory Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ Doesn't make any sense. Any ideas what you did differently? Again, sorry to bother you, but this is bedeviling me, and the program looks great. Fran Fran, ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On Sunday 12 December 2004 14:55, Paul Surgeon wrote: I'll bet tho that it would increase the incidence of people moaning that the aircraft is 'broken' and 'always pulling to the left'. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting we should prevent people from using single engine aircraft all together? Why not just remove the 172, PA-28, etc from FG and be done with it? I think he means that if FlightGear was easier to get started, then more noobs would be able to, and consequently more noobs would complain about always pulling to the left. If I'm right, then I think he is generalizing a bit: It looks like if a person is a noob, then he/she doesn't know what a command line is _and_ he/she doesn't know how an aircraft is supposed to behave, and in addition he/she is probably ignorant to a lot of other things. One might say that he/she is noob all over. On the other hand we have persons that do know what a command line is. Obviously he/she who knows what a command line is also knows how an aircraft behaves, right. ;-) M$FS has realism sliders that affect aircraft handling and they are set to noob by default. It works just fine and I don't see why we can't do the same. I guess that we don't do the same because we don't want to do that. -- Roy Vegard Ovesen ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On Sunday 12 Dec 2004 14:21, Roy Vegard Ovesen wrote: On the other hand we have persons that do know what a command line is. Obviously he/she who knows what a command line is also knows how an aircraft behaves, right. ;-) Thats a very good point that I hadn't thought of ;) ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
This is the path I am using, and the results are the same. I think the use of / is right here or am I wrong? Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:20 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: I know little about the mac, but I can tell right away that the file path you have is wrong: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs If you've only ever dealt with clickable folders, the concept of file paths might be a bit foreign, but absolute paths (and I think you want absolute, not relative) need to start with a /. It sounds to me like the current mac version requires unix experience to have a chance at running it. I suspect most Mac people have never popped the hood on OSX (and the hood wasn't really poppable on previous versions anyway) so they don't know what to do when the instructions say edit such and such a file and replace blah-blah-blah with the path to your home directory. Essentially we are asking them to pop the hood and rewire their car's engine to get fgfs working. We probably need some sort of better packaging for Mac if we want to get anywhere there. (This stuff of course really isn't all that hard, but for someone with absolutely zero unix experience, you really have to spell out every keystroke in order.) Regards, Curt. Francis X. Maier wrote: I don't think so; I've doublechecked my permissions. Fran On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Chris Tulloch wrote: This reminds me of file permissions problem... Chris Tulloch On Saturday 11 December 2004 12:30 pm, Francis X. Maier wrote: Last login: Sat Dec 11 10:21:44 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ cd /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ls FlightGear_Resource data OpenAL_Installer_OSX.dmgfgfs README.txt run_fgfs Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ./run_fgfs ./run_fgfs: line 1: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs: No such file or directory Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ Doesn't make any sense. Any ideas what you did differently? Again, sorry to bother you, but this is bedeviling me, and the program looks great. Fran Fran, ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: This is the path I am using, and the results are the same. I think the use of / is right here or am I wrong? Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout Again, I know little about the Mac or the Mac fgfs port, but this means you have the path to your fgfs binary correct, but look at the error message: Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear This means by default fgfs is looking for the FG data tree in /sw/share/FlightGear. This error means that FG can't find it's data files (all it's textures, models, scenery, aircraft, sounds, config files, data files, etc. etc.) You need to: 1) Make sure the fgfs data (often called base package) is installed on your system. 2) Tell fgfs where to find it. 2a) you could either install it in the place the binary is looking for. 2b) you could install it someplace else and make /sw/share/FlightGear a symbolic link to the actual location. 2c) you could set your $FG_ROOT environment variable to point to the actual location. 2d) you could run fgfs with the --fg-root=/some/path/to/the/fgfs/data command line option. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
That is precisely what puzzles me. The DATA folder is in the same directory where fgfs is. And it contains all that you mention, ie: textures, models, scenery, aircraft, sounds, ... ?? Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:46 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: This is the path I am using, and the results are the same. I think the use of / is right here or am I wrong? Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout Again, I know little about the Mac or the Mac fgfs port, but this means you have the path to your fgfs binary correct, but look at the error message: Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear This means by default fgfs is looking for the FG data tree in /sw/share/FlightGear. This error means that FG can't find it's data files (all it's textures, models, scenery, aircraft, sounds, config files, data files, etc. etc.) You need to: 1) Make sure the fgfs data (often called base package) is installed on your system. 2) Tell fgfs where to find it. 2a) you could either install it in the place the binary is looking for. 2b) you could install it someplace else and make /sw/share/FlightGear a symbolic link to the actual location. 2c) you could set your $FG_ROOT environment variable to point to the actual location. 2d) you could run fgfs with the --fg-root=/some/path/to/the/fgfs/data command line option. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Agh! What's baffling me about this is I also have a Linux box where I successfully installed this game, but the graphics card was weak, so I want to run it on my G5. Alfonso, if I read the exchanges between Jonathan Polley and Jim Smeall correctly shouldn't there be a / before Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs? Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 7:45 AM, Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: This is the path I am using, and the results are the same. I think the use of / is right here or am I wrong? Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:20 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: I know little about the mac, but I can tell right away that the file path you have is wrong: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs If you've only ever dealt with clickable folders, the concept of file paths might be a bit foreign, but absolute paths (and I think you want absolute, not relative) need to start with a /. It sounds to me like the current mac version requires unix experience to have a chance at running it. I suspect most Mac people have never popped the hood on OSX (and the hood wasn't really poppable on previous versions anyway) so they don't know what to do when the instructions say edit such and such a file and replace blah-blah-blah with the path to your home directory. Essentially we are asking them to pop the hood and rewire their car's engine to get fgfs working. We probably need some sort of better packaging for Mac if we want to get anywhere there. (This stuff of course really isn't all that hard, but for someone with absolutely zero unix experience, you really have to spell out every keystroke in order.) Regards, Curt. Francis X. Maier wrote: I don't think so; I've doublechecked my permissions. Fran On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Chris Tulloch wrote: This reminds me of file permissions problem... Chris Tulloch On Saturday 11 December 2004 12:30 pm, Francis X. Maier wrote: Last login: Sat Dec 11 10:21:44 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ cd /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ls FlightGear_Resource data OpenAL_Installer_OSX.dmgfgfs README.txt run_fgfs Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ./run_fgfs ./run_fgfs: line 1: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs: No such file or directory Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ Doesn't make any sense. Any ideas what you did differently? Again, sorry to bother you, but this is bedeviling me, and the program looks great. Fran Fran, ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-users] Config file parse error...
I don't see how adding a flight planner, aircraft selection and other useful features is going to bloat the code so much that is runs like a snail. ..these should be _separate_ small programs, not one big ass binary. And, yes, I agree these are useful, and they should be called from FG as needed, and not carried as dead weight when they're not being used. ..take yasim and uiuc fdm's; If I don't use them, they should not be loaded as the dead weigh part of the one big ass binary. They should be stand-alone binaries precisely like jsbsim. If I use them, I like fgfs to call yasim as needed. Etc. Well, JSBSim _can_ be a standalone binary, but when integrated with Flightgear, _all_ of the FDMs (and other subsystems too as far as I know) are compiled and linked in to FlightGear as static libraries, I believe. Is that correct? Jon ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Right. Misread it. But that only deepens the mystery! ;-) Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:37 AM, Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: Yes. And that is the way I have it Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... And the first line in the Resource file reads: --fg-root=/Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/data Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Francis X. Maier wrote: Agh! What's baffling me about this is I also have a Linux box where I successfully installed this game, but the graphics card was weak, so I want to run it on my G5. Alfonso, if I read the exchanges between Jonathan Polley and Jim Smeall correctly shouldn't there be a / before Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs? Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 7:45 AM, Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: This is the path I am using, and the results are the same. I think the use of / is right here or am I wrong? Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:20 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: I know little about the mac, but I can tell right away that the file path you have is wrong: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs If you've only ever dealt with clickable folders, the concept of file paths might be a bit foreign, but absolute paths (and I think you want absolute, not relative) need to start with a /. It sounds to me like the current mac version requires unix experience to have a chance at running it. I suspect most Mac people have never popped the hood on OSX (and the hood wasn't really poppable on previous versions anyway) so they don't know what to do when the instructions say edit such and such a file and replace blah-blah-blah with the path to your home directory. Essentially we are asking them to pop the hood and rewire their car's engine to get fgfs working. We probably need some sort of better packaging for Mac if we want to get anywhere there. (This stuff of course really isn't all that hard, but for someone with absolutely zero unix experience, you really have to spell out every keystroke in order.) Regards, Curt. Francis X. Maier wrote: I don't think so; I've doublechecked my permissions. Fran On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Chris Tulloch wrote: This reminds me of file permissions problem... Chris Tulloch On Saturday 11 December 2004 12:30 pm, Francis X. Maier wrote: Last login: Sat Dec 11 10:21:44 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ cd /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ls FlightGear_Resource data OpenAL_Installer_OSX.dmgfgfs README.txt run_fgfs Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ./run_fgfs ./run_fgfs: line 1: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs: No such file or directory Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ Doesn't make any sense. Any ideas what you did differently? Again, sorry to bother you, but this is bedeviling me, and the program looks great. Fran Fran, ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Curt, But that doesn't explain this response: Last login: Sun Dec 12 08:58:04 on ttyp1 Welcome to Darwin! /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/data Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout [Process completed] I __DO__ have a version file in my data folder in exactly the place it appears to be looking. It contains only one line: 0.9.6. Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:49 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: That is precisely what puzzles me. The DATA folder is in the same directory where fgfs is. And it contains all that you mention, ie: textures, models, scenery, aircraft, sounds, ... Right, but the error message indicates that FG is looking in /sw/share/FlightGear, not the current directory. Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
If it matters, my (invisible) .fgfsrc file is located in /Users/franx2. It is not located in /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6. Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:52 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: Yes. And that is the way I have it Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... And the first line in the Resource file reads: --fg-root=/Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/data Well here is where someone who has gotten it to run on the Mac needs to step in. I can only speak in generalities, not Mac specifics. But, it appears taht your resource file (?) is not being read? FG by default looks for ~/.fgfsrc (where ~ = your home directory.) Is that what you are refering to? Is that the Resource file that has this command line option? Why do you have a ; exit at the end of your command? Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Francis X. Maier wrote: If it matters, my (invisible) .fgfsrc file is located in /Users/franx2. It is not located in /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6. That is the correct place (at least for standard unix.) Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: That is precisely what puzzles me. The DATA folder is in the same directory where fgfs is. And it contains all that you mention, ie: textures, models, scenery, aircraft, sounds, ... Right, but the error message indicates that FG is looking in /sw/share/FlightGear, not the current directory. Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Francis X. Maier wrote: Curt, But that doesn't explain this response: Last login: Sun Dec 12 08:58:04 on ttyp1 Welcome to Darwin! /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/data Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout [Process completed] I __DO__ have a version file in my data folder in exactly the place it appears to be looking. It contains only one line: 0.9.6. But $/Users/franx2/FlightGear-0.9.6/data is not a valid path. Paths should never start with $ (unless you are mixing in variables which you aren't trying to do here.) You need to fix the path (probably in your script based on how I gather the mac version is setup.) Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
I moved the FlightGear folder into my home directory, ie when I click on the house in the dock that is where FlightGear is. Not in the applications folder. I know almost nothing about Unix but I followed Jonathan's instructions and I got it to work. Perhaps the location and the path is the key? ~~ -Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vaughn, WA, USA 20 iMac G5, 10.3.6 ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
HOLY COW, that was it !!! Thanks Curt. It was the $ all along. Dohh. Many thanks! Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 9:12 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Francis X. Maier wrote: Curt, But that doesn't explain this response: Last login: Sun Dec 12 08:58:04 on ttyp1 Welcome to Darwin! /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/data Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout [Process completed] I __DO__ have a version file in my data folder in exactly the place it appears to be looking. It contains only one line: 0.9.6. But $/Users/franx2/FlightGear-0.9.6/data is not a valid path. Paths should never start with $ (unless you are mixing in variables which you aren't trying to do here.) You need to fix the path (probably in your script based on how I gather the mac version is setup.) Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system .fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On 12/12/04 at 3:55 PM Paul Surgeon wrote: M$FS has realism sliders that affect aircraft handling and they are set to noob by default. It works just fine and I don't see why we can't do the same. I personally have nothing against providing a helping hand, such as autorudder. However, I would support having the startup initially default to the most realistic simulation mode as at present, with the 'game mode' as an option, rather than the reverse used by the more consumer-orientated sims out there as you mention. It's a hard one though - 3 axis control using hand and feet just isn't easily or intuitively available on most computers without either some effort or expense on extra hardware. Cheers - Dave This message has been scanned but we cannot guarantee that it and any attachments are free from viruses or other damaging content: you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Jim, I got it going based on exchanges with Curt earlier today on this list. In my case I had a $ in front of /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 in my run_fgfs and Flight_Resource files. When I removed it, voila. Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 10:07 AM, James Smeall wrote: I moved the FlightGear folder into my home directory, ie when I click on the house in the dock that is where FlightGear is. Not in the applications folder. I know almost nothing about Unix but I followed Jonathan's instructions and I got it to work. Perhaps the location and the path is the key? ~~ -Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vaughn, WA, USA 20 iMac G5, 10.3.6 ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parse error: C:/Program Files/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On December 12, 2004 03:52 am, Erik Hofman wrote: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topicforum=198topic_id=442; mode=full Changing the content inside fgfsrc didn't work. I am out of idea. =( I think he's using fgrun. That utility will always overwrite the contents of the .fgfsrc file on Unix. Maybe the same thing happens on Windows with the system.fgfsrc file? How would he fix the problem then? Ampere ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Something for the weekend (giggle)
For anyone wondering why Dave included a giggle in the subject line, I'm guessing that it's because something for the weekend, sir? is the way British barbers used to offer to sell condoms to customers. I don't know why I know this, but I'm sure it's wasting space in my brain that could be used for better purposes. All the best, David -- http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Something for the weekend (giggle)
David Megginson wrote: For anyone wondering why Dave included a giggle in the subject line, I'm guessing that it's because something for the weekend, sir? is the way British barbers used to offer to sell condoms to customers. I don't know why I know this, but I'm sure it's wasting space in my brain that could be used for better purposes. British humor became a *lot* funnier for me after I visited London ... but it's been a while now I guess. :-) So the correct response would be, no thanks, I'm a concorde pilot followed immediately by a free runaway barber chair accident ... for no particular reason[1] I'm reminded of a *really* old saturday night live sketch where a kid working at a grocery store picked up one of those mats that you step on and the door automatically opens. He then cut out shoe shaped pieces from the mat and glued them to the bottom of his shoes. Hilarity ensued ... [1] I'm really behind on sleep I think ... Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
Dave Martin wrote: On Sunday 12 Dec 2004 13:55, Paul Surgeon wrote: I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I'm inferring that if you invite the uninitiated (I hate the term 'noob') then that is exactly what you will receive (in all forms) Are you suggesting we should prevent people from using single engine aircraft all together? No. M$FS has realism sliders that affect aircraft handling and they are set to noob by default. It works just fine and I don't see why we can't do the same. MSFS is also a game rather than a serious simulator. Although it boasts a massive swaythe of features, it's flightmodel is at best lack-lustre. If Flightgear is a realistic simulation of flight then let it be a realistic simulation of flight. - If people can't fly the very first time they try and are unwilling to persevere then it would probably be better that they walked away and used something more simplistic such as MSFS or X-Plane. (Not to belittle X-Plane but it can be made to be 'easy' ) ___ Agreed, If my memory is correct, the ultimate goal of the project is to produce a simulator that can satisfy the FAA requirements, one that can be used as part of the training to qualify for issue of a pilot's license. I've seen posts from NASA and Boeing guys saying they intended to contribute to fgfs, hoping to use it in their daily development work. Such a simulator (ELITE - JAR/FAA certified) is used at our school as part of IMC/IFR training and examination, so the handling has to be realistic. Recently a guy started training and stated that he was a wiz on MSFS, but had to remark that the real aeroplane was a completely different experience. Some years ago, I did 1.7 hours flying a PA28-161, completed the paper work, paid up and headed off to an exhibition where there was MSFS with yoke and pedals, I did a smooth take-off and at 500 feet did a right turn only to have the PA28 in MSFS roll left and crash. I phoned up the school to advise against the purchase they were contemplating, instead they bought a proper package that is still used for IFR/IMC training and exams. Perhaps, the project goals should be spelled out in bold coloured type so that no one gets the idea that fgfs is an attempt at cloning MSFS. MSFS is not designed to meet certification standards. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce Hamradio G3VBV and keen Flyer =LINUX ONLY USED HERE= ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Something for the weekend (giggle)
David Megginson wrote: For anyone wondering why Dave included a giggle in the subject line, I'm guessing that it's because something for the weekend, sir? is the way British barbers used to offer to sell condoms to customers. I don't know why I know this, but I'm sure it's wasting space in my brain that could be used for better purposes. All the best, David The funniest I ever saw on that subject was in the Warwick pub in Southend-on-sea, written on the dispensing machine in the gents was THIS IS THE WORST CHEWING GUM IN SOUTHEND. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce Hamradio G3VBV and keen Flyer =LINUX ONLY USED HERE= ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-users] Something for the weekend (giggle)
David Megginson wrote: For anyone wondering why Dave included a giggle in the subject line, I'm guessing that it's because something for the weekend, sir? is the way British barbers used to offer to sell condoms to customers. I don't know why I know this, but I'm sure it's wasting space in my brain that could be used for better purposes. All the best, David The funniest I ever saw on that subject was in the Warwick pub in Southend-on-sea, written on the dispensing machine in the gents was THIS IS THE WORST CHEWING GUM IN SOUTHEND. Regards Sid. I saw one screwed onto a wall, straight through the center of it, with a For Sale sign, advertising Never Used. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-users] New user with a few questions
Why don't some of the keys work? Such as the Panel key (P) doesn't get rid of the pilots panel. the mini panel key (s) doesn't do anything to the panel the shift panel keys Shift-f5/f6 Shiftf7/f8 doesn't move the panel. Ok, wait a minute. I was just screwing around and discovered that if I do the Shift-8 etc... thing to look around the plane then tried the (P) key then a c-172 panel pops up over my c-310. Then all the other keys I just mentioned work on that panel. Of course it does nothing for the c-310 panel. Weird. Is this panel movement stuff just for the c-172 Then on some ariplane panels if you right click to the motion cursor of the mouse you can lose th panel and never get it back. Oh and that ctl-U that's supposed to add 1000 ft to your altitude? It actually puts my plane on the ground. That's funny. hehe. Guess that's all for now. BTW Fantastic Peice of software. Thanks to the devs. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror:C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc'--prop: encountered in XP
Dave Martin wrote: On Sunday 12 Dec 2004 13:55, Paul Surgeon wrote: I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I'm inferring that if you invite the uninitiated (I hate the term 'noob') then that is exactly what you will receive (in all forms) Are you suggesting we should prevent people from using single engine aircraft all together? No. M$FS has realism sliders that affect aircraft handling and they are set to noob by default. It works just fine and I don't see why we can't do the same. MSFS is also a game rather than a serious simulator. Although it boasts a massive swaythe of features, it's flightmodel is at best lack-lustre. If Flightgear is a realistic simulation of flight then let it be a realistic simulation of flight. - If people can't fly the very first time they try and are unwilling to persevere then it would probably be better that they walked away and used something more simplistic such as MSFS or X-Plane. (Not to belittle X-Plane but it can be made to be 'easy' ) ___ Agreed, If my memory is correct, the ultimate goal of the project is to produce a simulator that can satisfy the FAA requirements, one that can be used as part of the training to qualify for issue of a pilot's license. I've seen posts from NASA and Boeing guys saying they intended to contribute to fgfs, hoping to use it in their daily development work. Such a simulator (ELITE - JAR/FAA certified) is used at our school as part of IMC/IFR training and examination, so the handling has to be realistic. Recently a guy started training and stated that he was a wiz on MSFS, but had to remark that the real aeroplane was a completely different experience. Some years ago, I did 1.7 hours flying a PA28-161, completed the paper work, paid up and headed off to an exhibition where there was MSFS with yoke and pedals, I did a smooth take-off and at 500 feet did a right turn only to have the PA28 in MSFS roll left and crash. I phoned up the school to advise against the purchase they were contemplating, instead they bought a proper package that is still used for IFR/IMC training and exams. Perhaps, the project goals should be spelled out in bold coloured type 0202 so that no one gets the idea that fgfs is an attempt at cloning MSFS. MSFS is not designed to meet certification standards. Regards Sid. -- I was at the Interservice/Industry Training, Simulation Education Conference in Orlando Florida last week, and there were a number of low-cost simulators flying MSFS. I talked to a few of them, and they all voiced similar concerns, that MSFS wasn't that great of a flight model, and that they were bothered because it wasn't open source. FlightGear and JSBSim answer those issues. From what I've seen of JSBSim, it should be capable of FAA Level 6 simulators, and even possibly Level B or higher. I'm working on trying to prove that. I am new to the FGFS list, but have been on the JSBSim list for a while, so I thought it might be time to introduce myself here. I am an Aeronautical Engineer with over 20 years of flight simulator experience. I am currently working with the JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model (FDM), developing an Automatic Fidelity Test (AFT) system that uses the JSBSIM FDM. For those of you that might not know what an AFT system is, it is a scripting method which allows one to test a simulator in predetermined maneuvers. These would include trim points as well as dynamic tests. With this system, one can more easily obtain FAA certification and/or pass military requirements by comparison to actual aircraft flight tests. I have also modified DATCOM to produce models for use in JSBSim. DATCOM is an old Air Force program that allows the user to input aircraft design parameters (geometry, airfoil sections, surface deflections, etc) and it produces aerodynamic coefficients. It is not perfect, but it is QUITE impressive for conventional aircraft. Work on this continues Combining my AFT system, DATCOM and JSBSim (when all the pieces are completed), I believe that it is going to be possible to crank out a 90% model in the matter of a couple of weeks, and a model that meets tolerances in a few months (depending on tolerances and flight test data). This is a huge improvement over the current process where each company must develop their own system and/or you spend a suitcase of money to buy the manufacturer's model, if there is one available. Having these proven tools reduces the risk in the flight area significantly. If you are interested in this, please check out my web page at www.holycows.net/freefdm and www.holycows.net/datcom. Bill Galbraith ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Isn't this a valid path? [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 10:12 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Francis X. Maier wrote: Curt, But that doesn't explain this response: Last login: Sun Dec 12 08:58:04 on ttyp1 Welcome to Darwin! /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/data Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout [Process completed] I __DO__ have a version file in my data folder in exactly the place it appears to be looking. It contains only one line: 0.9.6. But $/Users/franx2/FlightGear-0.9.6/data is not a valid path. Paths should never start with $ (unless you are mixing in variables which you aren't trying to do here.) You need to fix the path (probably in your script based on how I gather the mac version is setup.) Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Al, Post both your run_fgfs file readout and your Flight_Resource readout. You have to be really close. Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 10:37 PM, Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: Isn't this a valid path? [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 10:12 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Francis X. Maier wrote: Curt, But that doesn't explain this response: Last login: Sun Dec 12 08:58:04 on ttyp1 Welcome to Darwin! /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/data Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout [Process completed] I __DO__ have a version file in my data folder in exactly the place it appears to be looking. It contains only one line: 0.9.6. But $/Users/franx2/FlightGear-0.9.6/data is not a valid path. Paths should never start with $ (unless you are mixing in variables which you aren't trying to do here.) You need to fix the path (probably in your script based on how I gather the mac version is setup.) Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
I found it with Find. It is in my home directory (alfonsol) [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs Al On Dec 13, 2004, at 12:02 AM, Francis X. Maier wrote: Al, You should have your invisible .fgfsrc file __not__ in your FlightGear0.9.6 folder, but outside it in your home directory. You might check that. You can download the freeware TinkerTool program that will reveal that for you. Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 10:50 PM, Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: There, in my home directory, is where I have it too. But to no avail so far. Another stupid question (Mac): when I was using version 0.9.4 there was a file called fgfs (info. describes it as Unix executable file) AND another called FlightGear (described as Application) both in the same FlightGear folder. The download of 0.9.6 doesn't have the application. Only the fgfs executable. Did I get only an incomplete download? I ask this because Jonathan sent me the following: The flight gear application is called fgfs. There is no script called run_fgfs in that directory (yet). Jonathan Polley Thanks for your patience, Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 11:07 AM, James Smeall wrote: I moved the FlightGear folder into my home directory, ie when I click on the house in the dock that is where FlightGear is. Not in the applications folder. I know almost nothing about Unix but I followed Jonathan's instructions and I got it to work. Perhaps the location and the path is the key? ~~ -Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vaughn, WA, USA 20 iMac G5, 10.3.6___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
I have repaired mine, at least three times to no avail. Al On Dec 11, 2004, at 5:41 PM, Chris Tulloch wrote: This reminds me of file permissions problem... Chris Tulloch On Saturday 11 December 2004 12:30 pm, Francis X. Maier wrote: Last login: Sat Dec 11 10:21:44 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ cd /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ls FlightGear_Resource data OpenAL_Installer_OSX.dmgfgfs README.txt run_fgfs Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ./run_fgfs ./run_fgfs: line 1: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs: No such file or directory Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ Doesn't make any sense. Any ideas what you did differently? Again, sorry to bother you, but this is bedeviling me, and the program looks great. Fran Fran, ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror: C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system.fgfsrc '--prop: encountered in XP
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:49:50 +0200, Paul wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sunday, 12 December 2004 14:02, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:16:03 +0200, Paul wrote in message Yet another reason why I would love to see everything integrated into the FlightGear binary ..I disagree, big fat binaries get fat and bloated and draggy. I don't see how adding a flight planner, aircraft selection and other useful features is going to bloat the code so much that is runs like a snail. ..these should be _separate_ small programs, not one big ass binary. And, yes, I agree these are useful, and they should be called from FG as needed, and not carried as dead weight when they're not being used. ..take yasim and uiuc fdm's; If I don't use them, they should not be loaded as the dead weigh part of the one big ass binary. They should be stand-alone binaries precisely like jsbsim. If I use them, I like fgfs to call yasim as needed. Etc. ..keeping track of a million wee binaries, is best done with an installer, these are available for wintendo too, in Debian, Knoppix etc we use apt and deb, Fedora and Red Hat people use apt or yum and rpm, and if we haven't, we could put these package mangagement wrappers in cvs to automate the whole damned show. Maybe if we were writing a mini OS into FG it would slow things down but you'll have to add millions of lines of code before it becomes a real issue. FG is written in C++ and not some crappy interpreted language like VB. ..aye, thanks! According to your reasoning we should remove all the menu entries such as the weather selection and the property browser so that FG runs faster. ..I haven't checked, but I agree these ought to be separate programs, but to call them, we need a menu control interface in the fgfs binary, as this is how many people will call these support programs from fgfs. ..now you see the beauty in the good old unix tradition of having many small programs doing exactly one thing perfectly, rather than the wintendo tradition of trying to do everything in one big ass binary, releaseably. ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Same here. I have a data folder with all the packages, and even a version file with the sole contents 0.9.6. Fran Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:18 AM, Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: That is precisely what puzzles me. The DATA folder is in the same directory where fgfs is. And it contains all that you mention, ie: textures, models, scenery, aircraft, sounds, ... ?? Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:46 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: This is the path I am using, and the results are the same. I think the use of / is right here or am I wrong? Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit [Alfonso-Lebron-Bergess-Computer:~] alfonsol% /Users/alfonsol/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs; exit Using Mac OS X hack for initializing C++ stdio... Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear Please upgrade to version: 0.9.6 logout Again, I know little about the Mac or the Mac fgfs port, but this means you have the path to your fgfs binary correct, but look at the error message: Found version [none] at: /sw/share/FlightGear This means by default fgfs is looking for the FG data tree in /sw/share/FlightGear. This error means that FG can't find it's data files (all it's textures, models, scenery, aircraft, sounds, config files, data files, etc. etc.) You need to: 1) Make sure the fgfs data (often called base package) is installed on your system. 2) Tell fgfs where to find it. 2a) you could either install it in the place the binary is looking for. 2b) you could install it someplace else and make /sw/share/FlightGear a symbolic link to the actual location. 2c) you could set your $FG_ROOT environment variable to point to the actual location. 2d) you could run fgfs with the --fg-root=/some/path/to/the/fgfs/data command line option. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Curt, What should the path be? This tells me that fgfs is located in my home folder (/Users/franx) in the subfolder /FlightGear0.9.6. Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 7:20 AM, Curtis L. Olson wrote: I know little about the mac, but I can tell right away that the file path you have is wrong: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs If you've only ever dealt with clickable folders, the concept of file paths might be a bit foreign, but absolute paths (and I think you want absolute, not relative) need to start with a /. It sounds to me like the current mac version requires unix experience to have a chance at running it. I suspect most Mac people have never popped the hood on OSX (and the hood wasn't really poppable on previous versions anyway) so they don't know what to do when the instructions say edit such and such a file and replace blah-blah-blah with the path to your home directory. Essentially we are asking them to pop the hood and rewire their car's engine to get fgfs working. We probably need some sort of better packaging for Mac if we want to get anywhere there. (This stuff of course really isn't all that hard, but for someone with absolutely zero unix experience, you really have to spell out every keystroke in order.) Regards, Curt. Francis X. Maier wrote: I don't think so; I've doublechecked my permissions. Fran On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Chris Tulloch wrote: This reminds me of file permissions problem... Chris Tulloch On Saturday 11 December 2004 12:30 pm, Francis X. Maier wrote: Last login: Sat Dec 11 10:21:44 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! Suanns-Computer:~ franx2$ cd /Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6 Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ls FlightGear_Resource data OpenAL_Installer_OSX.dmgfgfs README.txt run_fgfs Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ ./run_fgfs ./run_fgfs: line 1: $/Users/franx2/FlightGear0.9.6/fgfs: No such file or directory Suanns-Computer:~/FlightGear0.9.6 franx2$ Doesn't make any sense. Any ideas what you did differently? Again, sorry to bother you, but this is bedeviling me, and the program looks great. Fran Fran, ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Config file parse error...
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:43:28 -0600, Jon wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I don't see how adding a flight planner, aircraft selection and other useful features is going to bloat the code so much that is runs like a snail. ..these should be _separate_ small programs, not one big ass binary. And, yes, I agree these are useful, and they should be called from FG as needed, and not carried as dead weight when they're not being used. ..take yasim and uiuc fdm's; If I don't use them, they should not be loaded as the dead weigh part of the one big ass binary. They should be stand-alone binaries precisely like jsbsim. If I use them, I like fgfs to call yasim as needed. Etc. Well, JSBSim _can_ be a standalone binary, but when integrated with Flightgear, _all_ of the FDMs (and other subsystems too as far as I know) are compiled and linked in to FlightGear as static libraries, I believe. Is that correct? ..I dunno, but that's how IUI too. Ideally, in the unix tradition, some of these would be dynamic libs, some would be standalone programs, I see no reason why yasim couldn't be used stand-alone just like jsbsim, but the uiuc extensions to larcsim is IMHO a more likely candidate for a dll, also for the other fdm's, as in yasim-uiuc and jsbsim-uiuc whenever someone decides he wanna play with iceing so badly he just does the coding. ;-) Etc. But I can see the FG static lib experience being the easier way to do it cross-platform, even when it's wrong. ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror:C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system .fgfsrc '--prop:encountered in XP
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Luff Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:23 PM To: FlightGear user discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-users] [from AVSIM] Config file parseerror:C:/ProgramFiles/FlightGear/data/system .fgfsrc '--prop:encountered in XP On 12/12/04 at 3:55 PM Paul Surgeon wrote: M$FS has realism sliders that affect aircraft handling and they are set to noob by default. It works just fine and I don't see why we can't do the same. I personally have nothing against providing a helping hand, such as autorudder. However, I would support having the startup initially default to the most realistic simulation mode as at present, with the 'game mode' as an option, rather than the reverse used by the more consumer-orientated sims out there as you mention. It's a hard one though - 3 axis control using hand and feet just isn't easily or intuitively available on most computers without either some effort or expense on extra hardware. Sorry, I haven't really been following this stream, but would the TRIM function of JSBSim be of help in this issue. If you could push a buton and get the aircraft trimmed at it's current altitude/airspeed/location, maybe that would help the issue... Bill Galbraith ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
There, in my home directory, is where I have it too. But to no avail so far. Another stupid question (Mac): when I was using version 0.9.4 there was a file called fgfs (info. describes it as Unix executable file) AND another called FlightGear (described as Application) both in the same FlightGear folder. The download of 0.9.6 doesn't have the application. Only the fgfs executable. Did I get only an incomplete download? I ask this because Jonathan sent me the following: The flight gear application is called fgfs. There is no script called run_fgfs in that directory (yet). Jonathan Polley Thanks for your patience, Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 11:07 AM, James Smeall wrote: I moved the FlightGear folder into my home directory, ie when I click on the house in the dock that is where FlightGear is. Not in the applications folder. I know almost nothing about Unix but I followed Jonathan's instructions and I got it to work. Perhaps the location and the path is the key? ~~ -Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vaughn, WA, USA 20 iMac G5, 10.3.6 ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Mac problem
Al, You should have your invisible .fgfsrc file __not__ in your FlightGear0.9.6 folder, but outside it in your home directory. You might check that. You can download the freeware TinkerTool program that will reveal that for you. Fran On Dec 12, 2004, at 10:50 PM, Alfonso J. Lebron-Berges wrote: There, in my home directory, is where I have it too. But to no avail so far. Another stupid question (Mac): when I was using version 0.9.4 there was a file called fgfs (info. describes it as Unix executable file) AND another called FlightGear (described as Application) both in the same FlightGear folder. The download of 0.9.6 doesn't have the application. Only the fgfs executable. Did I get only an incomplete download? I ask this because Jonathan sent me the following: The flight gear application is called fgfs. There is no script called run_fgfs in that directory (yet). Jonathan Polley Thanks for your patience, Al On Dec 12, 2004, at 11:07 AM, James Smeall wrote: I moved the FlightGear folder into my home directory, ie when I click on the house in the dock that is where FlightGear is. Not in the applications folder. I know almost nothing about Unix but I followed Jonathan's instructions and I got it to work. Perhaps the location and the path is the key? ~~ -Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vaughn, WA, USA 20 iMac G5, 10.3.6 ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
