Re: Waterbear announcement (was Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?))
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:16 PM, Dethe Elza wrote: > Glad you like it. How old is your son? Maybe we should organize a Vancouver > Geek Kids, or meet up at > Maker Faire next week. Or there is this: http://www.tedxkidsbc.com/ TEDx kids looks wonderful - thanks for that link. A Geek Kids meetup would be very popular; he's 13 and his sister is 12. They're up in Vancouver for the Summer, but unfortunately I'll be in San Jose with only a couple of very short trips back. We took them to the Maker's Faire in San Mateo last month and they were thrilled, especially with the hands-on labs, but it was too much to cover with the intense crowds and we missed a lot. The mini Faire should be a lot more manageable. I'll pass on that info and hopefully we can get them to go. > I'm working to get the Arduino code merged in with the main fork. Also > looking at options for wrapping the webapp in a native shell using > Appcelerator Titanium or Mozilla Chromeless so we can access the serial port > from Javascript. > I'll have a look at the code this weekend. Other than a somewhat obsessive use of Minecraft as social media, things are quiet here :) Cheers, Steve ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: Waterbear announcement (was Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?))
On 2011-06-15, at 7:43 PM, Steve Wart wrote: > I like it. My son is very keen on Scratch (although he prefers Lua > these days), but we picked up an Arduino kit last month, and I'm > looking forward to playing with that. Glad you like it. How old is your son? Maybe we should organize a Vancouver Geek Kids, or meet up at Maker Faire next week. Or there is this: http://www.tedxkidsbc.com/ I'm working to get the Arduino code merged in with the main fork. Also looking at options for wrapping the webapp in a native shell using Appcelerator Titanium or Mozilla Chromeless so we can access the serial port from Javascript. > His eyes kind of glazed over looking at the C code, as simple as it is > for Arduino. I got the impression he was just happy to have dad > perform magic tricks for him :-) I understand about the magic tricks. My son wanted me to help him get Raphael.js to mask images with arbitrary paths tonight. Fortunately, there was an undocumented technique (Google saves the day!). Besides, my eyes glaze over at C code too ;-) --Dethe ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: Waterbear announcement (was Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?))
I like it. My son is very keen on Scratch (although he prefers Lua these days), but we picked up an Arduino kit last month, and I'm looking forward to playing with that. His eyes kind of glazed over looking at the C code, as simple as it is for Arduino. I got the impression he was just happy to have dad perform magic tricks for him :-) Cheers, Steve On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Dethe Elza wrote: > On 2011-06-15, at 3:42 PM, Dale Schumacher wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Dethe Elza wrote: >>> In fact, I'm interested enough in the block structure visualization that >>> I've been porting just the blocks, without the Scratch semantics and >>> runtime, to the web. You can use scratch-like blocks to write and output >>> any language, provided a language plugin. As a demonstration, I'm writing a >>> language plugin for Javascript (plus Raphael, for graphics) and Martyn >>> Eggleton is working on a plugin for writing Arduino code. It is still early >>> days, very alpha, but if anyone is interested there is more here: >>> >>> https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/wiki [info] >>> https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/ [code] >>> https://waterbearlang.com/ [Javascript demo] >>> http://stretch.deedah.org/waterbear/ [Arduino demo] >>> >>> I've been meaning to share this with the group here, but wanting to get it >>> roughed in a bit more, but here it is in all its half-baked glory. Feedback >>> highly appreciated. >>> >>> --Dethe >> >> Very cool project. I'd like to see how easy it would be to use it for >> Humus programs. > > Thanks! I don't know how easy it would be to use with Humus, but I'd be happy > to help explore it and find out. > > I'm just finishing up a couple of side projects so I can devote all my hobby > coding time to Waterbear. One big refactoring is going to be control of (most > of) the UI from a language plugin, and multiple language plugins supported > from the same version (right now they are separate forks). > > --Dethe > ___ > fonc mailing list > fonc@vpri.org > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: Waterbear announcement (was Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?))
On 2011-06-15, at 3:42 PM, Dale Schumacher wrote: > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Dethe Elza wrote: >> In fact, I'm interested enough in the block structure visualization that >> I've been porting just the blocks, without the Scratch semantics and >> runtime, to the web. You can use scratch-like blocks to write and output any >> language, provided a language plugin. As a demonstration, I'm writing a >> language plugin for Javascript (plus Raphael, for graphics) and Martyn >> Eggleton is working on a plugin for writing Arduino code. It is still early >> days, very alpha, but if anyone is interested there is more here: >> >> https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/wiki [info] >> https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/ [code] >> https://waterbearlang.com/ [Javascript demo] >> http://stretch.deedah.org/waterbear/ [Arduino demo] >> >> I've been meaning to share this with the group here, but wanting to get it >> roughed in a bit more, but here it is in all its half-baked glory. Feedback >> highly appreciated. >> >> --Dethe > > Very cool project. I'd like to see how easy it would be to use it for > Humus programs. Thanks! I don't know how easy it would be to use with Humus, but I'd be happy to help explore it and find out. I'm just finishing up a couple of side projects so I can devote all my hobby coding time to Waterbear. One big refactoring is going to be control of (most of) the UI from a language plugin, and multiple language plugins supported from the same version (right now they are separate forks). --Dethe ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: Waterbear announcement (was Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?))
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Dethe Elza wrote: > In fact, I'm interested enough in the block structure visualization that I've > been porting just the blocks, without the Scratch semantics and runtime, to > the web. You can use scratch-like blocks to write and output any language, > provided a language plugin. As a demonstration, I'm writing a language plugin > for Javascript (plus Raphael, for graphics) and Martyn Eggleton is working on > a plugin for writing Arduino code. It is still early days, very alpha, but if > anyone is interested there is more here: > > https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/wiki [info] > https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/ [code] > https://waterbearlang.com/ [Javascript demo] > http://stretch.deedah.org/waterbear/ [Arduino demo] > > I've been meaning to share this with the group here, but wanting to get it > roughed in a bit more, but here it is in all its half-baked glory. Feedback > highly appreciated. > > --Dethe Very cool project. I'd like to see how easy it would be to use it for Humus programs. ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: Waterbear announcement (was Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?))
On 6/15/2011 6:30 AM, Dethe Elza wrote: On 2011-06-15, at 3:22 AM, BGB wrote: and, meanwhile, recent output has been net negative... Nothing wrong with that, we learn to write better, tighter code and get rid of the old cruft. Some of the best code I've seen has been written with the delete key... a lot of it in my case seems to be factoring things out. say, one replaces a big glob of code with a function call (the function then does the same task). then the big glob of code becomes an "#if 0 ... #endif" block (this has happened a lot in my script VM recently, there are a large number of these blocks). then generally, sometime later, this "#if 0" block ends up being removed (once the code is confirmed no-longer-useful). it seems that recently this factor has been outweighing the addition of new code. in some other cases, some partially redundant systems (doing nearly the same thing in slightly different ways, or via a different interface) have been effectively merged, ... the partial result (after removing 150 kloc of GPL code, dropping project size to around 1.05Mloc or so) was then my project going from around 1.05Mloc down to about 750 kloc (in approx 6 months). so, a shrinkage of around 300 kloc in 6 months or so... granted, there is some room for error here (I have better things to do than accurately catalog then when and where of the removal of code, or to keep a running log of the total project kloc at various moments in time). I just occasionally re-run line counters, and see what I see. a mystery though is how generally "off putting" the school experience can be to people... I generally remember these years of my life to be just plain dismal (I really don't know how people can find much enjoyment in all this...). Don't get me started on how bad school can be for turning kids off from learning. No mystery to it, helping kids learn just really isn't part of what schools were designed for, despite using that as a story to sell them to the public. fair enough... for those of us without much of a social life, and not personally all that motivated by grades, ..., there is really not a lot to find enjoyable in all this. One more point that is more on topic: Using the Scratch block-based visual programming, I saw that an eight year old was able to download, read, understand, and modify successfully (i.e., make the changes he desired/anticipated) pretty much any code he found on the Scratch site. Not too many languages I can say that for, even with adults. Not all of that can be attributed to the visual nature -- Scratch is also very tightly constrained and the limits can aid understanding too, as well as picking the right abstractions to represent with blocks, but it was impressive and I think the fact that the blocks show visually the structure and behaviour (sets of blocks tied to a specific sprite, blocks highlight as they are run) of the program does help considerably in being able to read, understand, and maintain someone else's code. In fact, I'm interested enough in the block structure visualization that I've been porting just the blocks, without the Scratch semantics and runtime, to the web. You can use scratch-like blocks to write and output any language, provided a language plugin. As a demonstration, I'm writing a language plugin for Javascript (plus Raphael, for graphics) and Martyn Eggleton is working on a plugin for writing Arduino code. It is still early days, very alpha, but if anyone is interested there is more here: https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/wiki [info] https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/ [code] https://waterbearlang.com/ [Javascript demo] http://stretch.deedah.org/waterbear/ [Arduino demo] I've been meaning to share this with the group here, but wanting to get it roughed in a bit more, but here it is in all its half-baked glory. Feedback highly appreciated. fair enough, I will leave the above here, but don't have much time to look at or comment on it at the moment. ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Waterbear announcement (was Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?))
On 2011-06-15, at 3:22 AM, BGB wrote: > and, meanwhile, recent output has been net negative... Nothing wrong with that, we learn to write better, tighter code and get rid of the old cruft. Some of the best code I've seen has been written with the delete key... > a mystery though is how generally "off putting" the school experience can be > to people... > I generally remember these years of my life to be just plain dismal (I really > don't know how people can find much enjoyment in all this...). Don't get me started on how bad school can be for turning kids off from learning. No mystery to it, helping kids learn just really isn't part of what schools were designed for, despite using that as a story to sell them to the public. One more point that is more on topic: Using the Scratch block-based visual programming, I saw that an eight year old was able to download, read, understand, and modify successfully (i.e., make the changes he desired/anticipated) pretty much any code he found on the Scratch site. Not too many languages I can say that for, even with adults. Not all of that can be attributed to the visual nature -- Scratch is also very tightly constrained and the limits can aid understanding too, as well as picking the right abstractions to represent with blocks, but it was impressive and I think the fact that the blocks show visually the structure and behaviour (sets of blocks tied to a specific sprite, blocks highlight as they are run) of the program does help considerably in being able to read, understand, and maintain someone else's code. In fact, I'm interested enough in the block structure visualization that I've been porting just the blocks, without the Scratch semantics and runtime, to the web. You can use scratch-like blocks to write and output any language, provided a language plugin. As a demonstration, I'm writing a language plugin for Javascript (plus Raphael, for graphics) and Martyn Eggleton is working on a plugin for writing Arduino code. It is still early days, very alpha, but if anyone is interested there is more here: https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/wiki [info] https://github.com/dethe/waterbear/ [code] https://waterbearlang.com/ [Javascript demo] http://stretch.deedah.org/waterbear/ [Arduino demo] I've been meaning to share this with the group here, but wanting to get it roughed in a bit more, but here it is in all its half-baked glory. Feedback highly appreciated. --Dethe ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
