[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. Aubrey ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100 From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. That's a pretty broad generalization - hopefully the organizing team will still make every effort to include as many people as possible, just in case you aren't 100% correct. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident of an Arab or Muslim nation. I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make it Haifa or not. M On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100 From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel). Image by FlamingText.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300 From: moushi...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident of an Arab or Muslim nation. I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make it Haifa or not. M On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100 From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Hi all, Thanks for bringing this up - although I think this belongs on wikimania-l and not necessarily here. I believe we'll be posting a FAQ dedicated to these issues quite soon on our website, http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org, as this matter has been brought up a number of times already. I'll try to sum it up quickly for now: * We will be delighted to have as high a participation as possible from the entire Middle East. This is really, really important to us, more than everything else. You can visit our website and see that most of it has already been translated into Arabic. * Unfortunately, ME politics is often plagued by tactics such as banning and boycotting. No matter how good our intentions, I'm sorry to say there will be people there who will still abstain from coming to the conference for their own reasons, and there's not too much we can do about it. If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality. * Wikimedia is not about politics, Wikimedia Israel doesn't represent the Israeli government (or any other political entity), and we're trying to focus this on free knowledge and a way for people to meet and interact, not on politics. * Wikimania 2011 will be held in Haifa, a city which is home to both Jews and Arabs. We'll be promoting it (also) using bilingual posters and brochures, and will try to reach the very large population of Israeli-Arab students in Haifa's academic institutions. * Israeli Arabs can (of course!!) reach the conference like any other Israeli - they just need to get to the venue, on foot, by car, by train or by bus. * Palestinians living in the West Bank enter Israel by the thousands every day. Yes, they need a permit for that. Obtaining that permit is a routine operation. Yes, some difficulties might come up there, we'll use our contacts within Israeli authorities to try to facilitate this as much as possible, including issuing letters of invitation and contacting the authorities well in advance. In fact, Israel might be one of the easier destination for Palestinians to reach. * Palestinians living in Gaza will have a harder time entering Israel. We're looking at various possibilities to make this possible, should there be any real demand for this. One possibility is for them to enter Egypt via the border crossing in Rafah (which Egypt usually closes) and to reach Israel via Egypt. * Having said that, we know of *no* Palestinian (or Israeli-Arab) Wikimedians, despite repeated attempts over the years to locate some. If someone knows any, please let us know! * Citizens of other countries can fly into Israel or enter Israel through the open border crossings with Jordan and Egypt. Israel of course recognizes the passports of countries with which it has diplomatic relations, even only partial relations, such as Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, Morocco, Algiers and others. Please refer to http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas. * For some countries which do not recognize Israel like Syria, Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia, entry will be more difficult, but there have been sporadic entries from these countries in the past, and should any participant from these countries wish to attend Wikimania, we will do our utmost to assist. We have a letter of support from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and exceptions can always be made at border crossings if approved from on-high. I'd be happy to keep this discussion constructive and not let it deteriorate into a flame war. Of course if anyone has further questions, we'll be happy to answer them. Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Israel is well aware of this situation, and offers the special possibility of stamping not the passport but a separate page on entry and exit, for any visitor that requests it (Westerners who work/travel to countries like Iran will not want an Israeli stamp on their passport). As to visiting Israel being socially unacceptable in some societies, or a good reason for being harassed by one's own government, this is a very regrettable fact of Middle East politics, but totally not within the organizing team's sphere of influence. The only thing we can do about it is hand out Don't photograph me labels or anonymous name tags to participants who want them, much like happened in WM2007 in Taipei (for some visitors from the PR of China). Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300 From: moushirah at gmail.com To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident of an Arab or Muslim nation. I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make it Haifa or not. M -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Thanks Harel for your email.. On 8/11/10, Harel Cain harel.c...@gmail.com wrote: Israel is well aware of this situation, and offers the special possibility of stamping not the passport but a separate page on entry and exit, for any visitor that requests it A confirmation for the possibility of getting the stamp on a separate paper will be helpful for people who might have fear of losing their jobs in UAE or other gulf countries or of being banned from religious rituals in Saudi Arabia. As to visiting Israel being socially unacceptable in some societies, or a good reason for being harassed by one's own government, this is a very regrettable fact of Middle East politics, but totally not within the organizing team's sphere of influence. As I put it before it is a complex and complicated situation which I believe is better discussed without any judgments on politics, governments or social reactions. For participants who might have any conservations on going to Israel, attending Wikimania will have its own cons and pros which will remain up to the personal evaluation of the attendant, after all. Good luck with all.. M Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300 From: moushirah at gmail.com To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident of an Arab or Muslim nation. I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make it Haifa or not. M -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. Hey, isn't this already progress when they acknowledge the soil to be Israeli? :) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel). At least some states are offering secondary passports to their citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps. Mathias ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I think Moushira is right: as much as there are external threats (which are being curbed in one way or another), it ultimately is a personal decision of whether or not a person wants to go. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:45:44 +0200 From: mathias.schind...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel). At least some states are offering secondary passports to their citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps. Mathias ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure about Irak for instance): Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution. There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and Indonesia. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I absolutely agree that this is a complicated matter and would differ from country to country. the thing is the foundations goal of expanding in the global south does place some priority on the middle east, it would be rather unfortunate that most of the people might not be able to make it to the conference. I also understand that the organizers are making a great effort to be as inclusive as possible, but I think we have to realize its going to be what its going to be. Many people might not be able to attend this year. Its not only an issue for the resident but also for people who travel or work in countries which might discriminate against an Israeli stamp on their passport. I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about two separate things? Regards Theo On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:20 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure about Irak for instance): Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution. There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and Indonesia. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Nathan wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. That's a pretty broad generalization - hopefully the organizing team will still make every effort to include as many people as possible, just in case you aren't 100% correct. Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about two separate things? In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry. It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new passport or a return certificate. To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 8/11/10, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure about Irak for instance): Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution. There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and Indonesia. You are right about the need to check on the list update. For instance as far as I know, Bahrain has no problem with Israeli stamped passport or nationals. (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper without restrictions?). thanks M ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy moushi...@gmail.com wrote: (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper without restrictions?). They do have this page on Wikimania2011wiki already: http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Passport_stamping -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant. On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Again the thing is the difference between the two according to the visa stamping info on the website, most of these countries- actually a lot of countries are going to need a visa to enter israel regardless of their relations. there is no way to get a visa on a separate paper, even if you get a stamp from immigration separately that visa in all likelihood is going to be there. On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:53 PM, theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant. On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400 From: pute...@mccme.ru Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about two separate things? In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry. It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new passport or a return certificate. To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
You are leading this into an ideological debate whoever you are, this is for people interested in attending wikimania getting to attend wikimania-thats it. whatever your beliefs are this is not the forum for it. Troll elsewhere. On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:57 PM, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Not to mention that the visa itself has to be on the passport and remain there, no matter where the stamp goes. On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.comwrote: Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400 From: pute...@mccme.ru Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about two separate things? In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry. It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new passport or a return certificate. To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:34:12 +, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? I am not sure about your scenario. If X does not recognize Israel obviously you can not fly from X to Israel. If Emirates do recognize Israel, you can fly from Dubai to Tel-Aviv (Haifa does not have the airport) and back. Having two Emirates stamps and nothing in between is a serious problem as far as X is concerned, and I believe it can only be solved by losing a passport in Dubai prior to traveling to X. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:37:43 +0400 From: pute...@mccme.ru Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:34:12 +, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? I am not sure about your scenario. If X does not recognize Israel obviously you can not fly from X to Israel. If Emirates do recognize Israel, you can fly from Dubai to Tel-Aviv (Haifa does not have the airport) and back. Having two Emirates stamps and nothing in between is a serious problem as far as X is concerned, and I believe it can only be solved by losing a passport in Dubai prior to traveling to X. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
--- On Wed, 8/11/10, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: From: wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2010, 1:27 PM Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? There seem to regularly be similar issues. Boston there was people from some countries who could not get visas - People have suggested Wikmania never be held in US because not everyone would be allowed to enter Taipei there were diffculties for some PRC residents. Alexandria there were boycotts/ethical issues over the executions of LBGT Egytians - People suggested Wikimania never be held in a country where LBGT folks are persecuted These issues are not really good arguments for never having Wikimania in certain countries. They are good arguments for rotating Wikimania amoung a large variety of different sorts of countries. Birgitte SB ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:54:00 +, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? No, I do not think this is a problem. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 11 August 2010 19:54, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? Why would the embassy give someone a visa in a way they couldn't actually use? It would be pointless. Since embassies do hand out visas in that manner, we can safely assume airlines accept them. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
As explained on http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas, there are various ways to attain a visa entry to Israel even if you live in a country with no Israeli embassies. Further to that, there are actually a lot of prominent countries from which no visa is needed to enter Israel: http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IsraelVisaPolicy.PNG I really think that theoretical discussions on contrived scenarios on how to enter Israel are rather inane and do not further the conference in any way. We can and will offer specific assistance to people with specific, concrete difficulties, working with Israeli authorities to achieve the special exemptions needed for people who actually want to attend the conference but live in a place that makes it difficult for them to do so. Millions of tourists from dozens of counties enter Israel every year safely and smoothly. Flying to Israel is even considered especially safe, because of effective security procedures (as opposed to security theater). See y'all in Haifa! Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 11 August 2010 19:54, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? Why would the embassy give someone a visa in a way they couldn't actually use? It would be pointless. Since embassies do hand out visas in that manner, we can safely assume airlines accept them. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Birgitte SB wrote: --- On Wed, 8/11/10, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? There seem to regularly be similar issues. Boston there was people from some countries who could not get visas - People have suggested Wikmania never be held in US because not everyone would be allowed to enter Taipei there were diffculties for some PRC residents. Alexandria there were boycotts/ethical issues over the executions of LBGT Egytians - People suggested Wikimania never be held in a country where LBGT folks are persecuted As I said one has to decide where you stand on issues of persecution. Which I guess comes down to whether or not you consider the persecution to be such that one ought to deny oneself a bit of pleasure. It is a difficult decision for sure, one that I agonize over whenever I have to forgo an After Eight Mint: http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? Wouldn't it be more productive to stop talking about X and see if there are actual Wikimedians out there who wish to take part in the 2011 Wikimania but can't because of their local oppressive government and their laws and regulations? Mathias ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 11 August 2010 19:27, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? I suggest ignoring the troll henceforth - this poster has only ever joined threads on this list in order to try to derail them. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 8/12/10, Mathias Schindler mathias.schind...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? Wouldn't it be more productive to stop talking about X and see if there are actual Wikimedians out there who wish to take part in the 2011 Wikimania but can't because of their local oppressive government and their laws and regulations? This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons. The issue is quite complicated, complex and extremely relative. Accusing some governments of being oppressive opens the door to counter accusation against Israel and we will end up in an unpleasant loop. Even within Arab nations who have direct flights to Israel, the decision to attend has its own considerations, which makes this issue a complete relative and personal decision. Thanks for understanding. M ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy moushi...@gmail.com wrote: This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons. Agreed, we can leave that up to someone else. So back to the issue: a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't? b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as humanly possible? Mathias ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
David Gerard wrote: On 11 August 2010 19:27, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? I suggest ignoring the troll henceforth - this poster has only ever joined threads on this list in order to try to derail them. Ticket booked? Now if I were trolling I'd be advising Ahmadinejad or Assad to have a bunch of people applying for visas and turning up at the airport or at the Jordanian border. When is the date again? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Mathias Schindler, 11/08/2010 23:39: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy moushi...@gmail.com wrote: This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons. Agreed, we can leave that up to someone else. So back to the issue: a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't? b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as humanly possible? A centralnotice to ar wikis and other wikis to selected IPs? (Does GeoIP work?) Nemo ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. I can see why the Wikimedia Foundation may not be so interested in taking one side in any political/ethical debate outside its main mission. That's reasonable and understandable. But in my opinion the whole thing is about picking a place that is a 'good' host. Whether we can do something to solve the major issues of Wikimania 2011 or not, we should seriously think of adding a standard for Wikimania hosts: that they need to be generally easily reachable for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community. Poland was great. I loved it. I mean I really loved having meetings in such 'peaceful' countries without such debates. Why not? There are many of them. [Historically, the part below was written before the one that's above, something you may feel and notice! :)] This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? That does not make any sense. Many people cannot, legally and socially, go to Israel and that's a fact not merely an opinion or a (legitimate and reasonable) choice. Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. I dunno about Turkey, but no, it's impossible for people from the other countries to visit Israel for social reasons and these reasons cannot be ignored. it ultimately is a personal decision of whether or not a person wants to go. Sure, it *is* your personal decision to make yourself at risk of serious consequences. Read below. there is no way to get a visa on a separate paper, even if you get a stamp from immigration separately that visa in all likelihood is going to be there. That, simply, changes everything. As explained on http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas, there are various ways to attain a visa entry to Israel even if you live in a country with no Israeli embassies. The page doesn't say anything about Visas on a blank paper, but only the stamps. Also Passport stamping talks about those countries may also search for Jordanian/Egyptian exit stamps from land borders with Israel. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 12/08/10 01:09, Harel Cain wrote: If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality. I'd like to think I have an open mind, and always look forward to having it changed. I've heard that conditions in the West Bank are pretty bad, although the Israeli government disputes this. Maybe the Wikimania team could organise a day trip to a nearby border town like Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa, to change our minds about this. -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Mathias Schindler, 11/08/2010 23:39: a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't? b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as humanly possible? A centralnotice to ar wikis and other wikis to selected IPs? (Does GeoIP work?) Not at the moment, but Tomasz and Ryan at the Foundation are working on getting this working. :-) -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies. Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc. shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes, some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an inescapable fact. We shouldn't let social considerations (i.e. the decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed organizers. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies. Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc. shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes, some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an inescapable fact. We shouldn't let social considerations (i.e. the decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed organizers. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Hm, Nathan, this is a vast mis-characterization and comparison of other countries' political circumstances and Israel/Muslim issues. Taiwan might come slightly close but its political/socio-economic ramifications are different. I would hardly characterize the predicament both Jews and Muslims are in as a social consideration. That's like comparing gay marriage to wearing a hat indoors :) -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
In Haifa and elsewhere in Israel, Arabs and Jews get along on a daily basis just fine, daily reality is stronger than everything. They meet at universities and workplaces and have friendly relationships - a natural matter, really. People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC lets you think, come judge for yourself. Harel On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies. Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc. shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes, some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an inescapable fact. We shouldn't let social considerations (i.e. the decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed organizers. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Hm, Nathan, this is a vast mis-characterization and comparison of other countries' political circumstances and Israel/Muslim issues. Taiwan might come slightly close but its political/socio-economic ramifications are different. I would hardly characterize the predicament both Jews and Muslims are in as a social consideration. That's like comparing gay marriage to wearing a hat indoors :) -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Harel Cain harel.c...@gmail.com wrote: In Haifa and elsewhere in Israel, Arabs and Jews get along on a daily basis just fine, daily reality is stronger than everything. They meet at universities and workplaces and have friendly relationships - a natural matter, really. People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC lets you think, come judge for yourself. Harel Oh, I know you're absolutely right, Harel. I come from the American South, and other Americans blur the racism line in their perception of reality here. I am certain that at the root of it everyone will be nice and welcoming. We're discussing the relevant, non-native socio-political concerns. These shouldn't exist, anyone should be able to go to Haifa. Unfortunately, real life doesn't recognize circumstance :) -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Tim, I don't know how this has any direct bearing on the conference. The conditions in the West Bank are not what anyone would wish them to be, including, of course, us. I could try to argue here that still, the average income there is higher than in most Arab countries and so on, but this is really beside the point. This conference is not about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and its best solution. We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website. Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist trips to warrant an organized tour to. I would suggest, as another possibility in the West Bank, to visit Bethlehem instead. It has much higher touristic value. We will be checking out options to have this included as a possible day trip. Thousands of tourists travel there every week - it's only about 5 miles south of Jerusalem... Harel On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 12/08/10 01:09, Harel Cain wrote: If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality. I'd like to think I have an open mind, and always look forward to having it changed. I've heard that conditions in the West Bank are pretty bad, although the Israeli government disputes this. Maybe the Wikimania team could organise a day trip to a nearby border town like Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa, to change our minds about this. -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website. Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist trips to warrant an organized tour to. I would suggest, as another possibility in the West Bank, to visit Bethlehem instead. It has much higher touristic value. We will be checking out options to have this included as a possible day trip. Thousands of tourists travel there every week - it's only about 5 miles south of Jerusalem... Harel I have visited Bethlehem on my own on a couple of occasions, and I agree that this is an interesting tourist destination, but as far as I understand Israeli citizens are not allowed in (Zone A or smth), which may make the things messy. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
