Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Steven Walling steven.wall...@gmail.com wrote: At this point in time, the project should act just like any other news organization, and never assume that readers are going to flock to them. How about getting Amazon to offer free Wikinews subscriptions on their Kindle Newspaper channel? They'd have something they can offer for free (they are already using wikipedia in their search function), and it might get more people interested in the Kindle newspaper function, thus portentially increasing (paid) subscriptions for other newspapers as well. Cheers, Magnus ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
The biggest problem for Wikinews in my mind is that delivering news is a competitive and innovative business. In the on-line and comprehensive encyclopedia vacuum, Wikipedia was able to be get there first, with the most and draw eyeballs and participants by being the leader. Wikinews, by contrast, is at a substantial disadvantage when it comes to online news reporting. There are hundreds of major news sites that offer content at no charge (although not free in the sense we usually mean), with the huge benefit of full time, paid reporting staff. If the best news sources online go behind a paywall (which is inevitable, I think, as a WSJ subscriber...), Wikinews might draw enough participants to reach the wiki critical mass. I'm not sure what else will do it - some series of high profile scoops or major interviews, perhaps? Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: The biggest problem for Wikinews in my mind is that delivering news is a competitive and innovative business. In the on-line and comprehensive encyclopedia vacuum, Wikipedia was able to be get there first, with the most and draw eyeballs and participants by being the leader. Wikinews, by contrast, is at a substantial disadvantage when it comes to online news reporting. There are hundreds of major news sites that offer content at no charge (although not free in the sense we usually mean), with the huge benefit of full time, paid reporting staff. You're right about Wikinews as an all-purpose news source: the commercial sites were there first and do it better. But as a hub of citizen journalism, Wikinews does still have a chance to be the first important site. At this point, the world of citizen journalism is extremely diffuse. One route for getting Wikinews to really work might involve two strategies: forming partnerships with other non-profit news organizations to syndicate content, so that Wikinews is a usable first-stop general news website; and focusing volunteer (and possibly Foundation) resources on identifying reporting opportunities and recruiting established amateur journalists to contribute their work to Wikinews *in addition to* their normal venues. Maybe the Foundation could work with one of the journalism grant sources (like the Knight Foundation) to design grants for professional freelance journalists who want to work on big stories where a cadre of web-savvy volunteers could usefully collaborate. -Sage ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
Magnus Manske wrote: On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Steven Walling How about getting Amazon to offer free Wikinews subscriptions on their Kindle Newspaper channel? They'd have something they can offer for free Wikinews being free (as in CC-BY) or for free doesn't matter, if the content is useless. I need Wikipedia so I can check background information on that new politician, on the author of that new book, or to find out what H1N1 really stands for. Already when Wikipedia contained just a few thousand stub articles, it was very useful. But when is Wikinews going to become useful? Ever? If it were twice as useful now as it was last year, then we'd only have to wait a few more years. But is this happening? Its Alexa rank is 13,400, far behind Wikipedia (7), Wiktionary (1049), Wikibooks (2370), Wikiquote (3330), and Wikisource (4600). A rank of 13K would be impressive in a smaller language, but not in English. Who uses Wikinews and why? Elections for the European Parliament are coming up on June 4-7. The election campaign is now big news around Europe. This is a topic where Wikinews could be useful, if it had the ambition to cover the parties, the politicians, the speeches, the promises. I went to en.wikinews.org and searched for European parliament. I found nothing about the election, only some old articles about events in the parliament, and these articles weren't even categorized as European Parliament, because there is no such category. How can this be a useful source of news reports? On Wikipedia, the [[European Parliament election, 2009]] article is already 51 kilobytes and has 16 interwiki links. That is useful. Wikinews was created as a spill-over from Wikipedia, since Wikipedia is not... a news reporting site. This is not a good start for a project. The idea was that news reports should be free (as Wikipedia is free). The problem is that newspaper websites are already openly available, free-of-charge if still under strict copyright, so what extra value does Wikinews bring? The right to reuse the contents? But who really needs to reuse yesterday's news reports? Isn't that what the encyclopedia is for? Wikipedia calls itself an encyclopedia, which is an all-round (as in cycle) learning (as in paedia) resource, but Wikipedia never was as all-round as required of traditional encyclopedias. Wikipedia is fine anyway, because it makes the web not suck. Most people don't go to Wikipedia to find information, they go to Google. For some topics, Google will present a link to a Wikipedia article. Each new article makes the web, as found on Google, suck a little less. So, Wikinews should free itself from its role of being a spill-over from Wikipedia, and instead aim to make news reporting on the web not suck. But in what way, exactly, does news reporting suck on the web? This is a very current discussion, especially in the U.S., where newspapers are closing down or cutting journalists' salaries and Rupert Murdoch last week said the days of free newspaper websites are soon over. Wall Street Journal's website hides behind a paid subscription, and other newspapers should follow, rather than offering news reports for free on open websites with ads. Such a change would make news reporting on the web suck, for sure. But we don't know yet if it will happen. We can't rely on how newspapers will suck in the future, but have to build on the way they suck today. One way that newspapers suck on the web, in my personal opinion, is the front pages of their websites. They all look the same, trying to present some top headlines and links to departments for sports, business or literature. I seldom read more than the 3-4 top headlines. If I click down into the literature department, only 1 or 2 stories are new, the others are from last week. This is a very different experience from reading a printed newspaper with all its subsections, where everything is new from yesterday. This is where Wikinews sucks even worse. Its front page is far more boring than any commercial newspaper's website. There are so many kinds of news that it fails to cover (such as the European Parliament election), that a daily visit to en.wikinews.org would be a complete waste of time. Instead, I can go to news.google.com to search for news on a particular topic. This is very useful, if I already know what I'm looking for. But it's not very good for learning about breaking news. Another way that traditional news reporting sucks is that they often just present press releases and there is too little investigative journalism. But having an investigative reporter work for months on a project is really expensive, either for her employer or for herself. Shifting that work load to mass collaboration is exactly what Wikileaks does. That website actually makes news reporting suck less. Should Wikinews have a mission more like theirs? A lot
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
Sorry if this point may have been brought up before, but a difference between Wikipedia and Wikinews is also the text sort. Journalistic texts have a broader range of stiles, neutrality is handled differently, opinion is less taboo than in an encyclopedia. This makes journalistic texts more individualistic - and less collaborative. And journalism is digging out original knowledge, this requires a person who is responsable and can be made responsable. Ziko 2009/5/11 Nathan nawr...@gmail.com: All of the questions enumerated by Lars are exactly on point - and ultimately, I wonder if there is an answer in there that will allow Wikinews to be widely useful. It may be that there isn't, for now, and that it won't be broadly useful as a news source until the dynamics of the online news business changes. I say useful as a news source because it seems like there may be other positive uses for Wikinews as a project. Our focus with all projects is generating (or collecting) free content in a reusable and easily accessible format - but that doesn't have to be the limit, and over time the Foundation is branching into other niches where we can have a beneficial educational impact outside of our now traditional role. There is, for instance, much discussion in the news world about the future of journalism[1] and specifically investigative reporting and the role of reportage in democracy. Wikinews may not be able to play a significant role in developing the future of journalism as a source for news, but I could see it being a significant player as an alternative method of training journalists and as a way to give new journalists experience and exposure in an era of shrinking newsroom budgets. Perhaps the best role for Wikinews in the Wikimedia movement is not in its reporting, per se, but in generating experienced journalists and developing the news field for a post-newspaper future. Nathan [1] As a good example, see Frank Rich's column in the New York Times, The American Press on Suicide Watch, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/opinion/10rich.html ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Ziko van Dijk NL-Silvolde ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
If things were different, they would be different. Right now Wikinews can serve as an aggregator of news first published elsewhere, but Google and Yahoo can do it better. We can do some original work, at our own expense. When and if the crisis affecting paper newspapers gets worse an opportunity may arise to fill a need not being adequately met. But that need can also be met by new newspapers or on-line sites, perhaps run by cooperatives made up of experienced laid-off journalists, unburdened by the heavy burden of debt, onerous labor contracts, and overhead costs existing newspapers labor under. They may be organized as non-profit corporations, perhaps subsidized by foundation or even government subsidies, think Amtrak... Fred All of the questions enumerated by Lars are exactly on point - and ultimately, I wonder if there is an answer in there that will allow Wikinews to be widely useful. It may be that there isn't, for now, and that it won't be broadly useful as a news source until the dynamics of the online news business changes. I say useful as a news source because it seems like there may be other positive uses for Wikinews as a project. Our focus with all projects is generating (or collecting) free content in a reusable and easily accessible format - but that doesn't have to be the limit, and over time the Foundation is branching into other niches where we can have a beneficial educational impact outside of our now traditional role. There is, for instance, much discussion in the news world about the future of journalism[1] and specifically investigative reporting and the role of reportage in democracy. Wikinews may not be able to play a significant role in developing the future of journalism as a source for news, but I could see it being a significant player as an alternative method of training journalists and as a way to give new journalists experience and exposure in an era of shrinking newsroom budgets. Perhaps the best role for Wikinews in the Wikimedia movement is not in its reporting, per se, but in generating experienced journalists and developing the news field for a post-newspaper future. Nathan [1] As a good example, see Frank Rich's column in the New York Times, The American Press on Suicide Watch, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/opinion/10rich.html ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
Fred Bauder wrote: If things were different, they would be different. Right now Wikinews can serve as an aggregator of news first published elsewhere, but Google and Yahoo can do it better. We can do some original work, at our own expense. When and if the crisis affecting paper newspapers gets worse an opportunity may arise to fill a need not being adequately met. But that need can also be met by new newspapers or on-line sites, perhaps run by cooperatives made up of experienced laid-off journalists, unburdened by the heavy burden of debt, onerous labor contracts, and overhead costs existing newspapers labor under. They may be organized as non-profit corporations, perhaps subsidized by foundation or even government subsidies, think Amtrak... I like the idea of having Amtrak subsidize the transportation costs of citizen journalists trying to get to their news sites. I don't think it's a matter of if the newspaper crisis gets worse, but when. One of the big factors to turn people away from paper newspapers is the excess of advertising. Most of the flyers that come with a newspaper go straight into the strash/s recycling. Good ads, if there be such a thing, just get lost in the pile of crap. As is the case with the auto manufacturers, labor costs are not the most important factor in the collapse of newspapers; putting out a product that nobody wants is. Paying for online news won't work either. A person who wants to look at an issue in detail will want to compare different news sources, and won't want to pay for them all. In many cases the best report may be in a publication that one would not otherwise need to ever look at. You're right to say that Google and Yahoo are in a much better position to be aggregators. That work can be done by clerks who just organize what they find elsewhere without any need to analyze what it's about. The Wikinewsies who perform an aggregating role are not citizen journalists; they're armchair journalists. Failing newspapers means fewer journalists to go to where the news happens. It increases the likelihood that we will depend more on homogenized syndicated news reports. A military that embeds such journalists, for example, has a better control over the message being reported. Getting a rounded analysis of an issue depends on there being more eyes to directly watch what is happening. With many eyes on the job the predictable POV of any one pair becomes marginalized. Ec ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
Nathan wrote: The biggest problem for Wikinews in my mind is that delivering news is a competitive and innovative business. In the on-line and comprehensive encyclopedia vacuum, Wikipedia was able to be get there first, with the most and draw eyeballs and participants by being the leader. This certainly distinguishes Wikipedia from all the sister projects. Wikipedia started with a vision; the sister projects started by not being Wikipedia. Each, beginning with Meta, was set up to get around a limitation imposed by a Wikpedia rule. It's very difficult to build vision when your entire raison d'être depends on *not* being something. Ec ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
Sage Ross wrote: You're right about Wikinews as an all-purpose news source: the commercial sites were there first and do it better. But as a hub of citizen journalism, Wikinews does still have a chance to be the first important site. At this point, the world of citizen journalism is extremely diffuse. One problem, I think, is that Wikinews has substantial competition in the realm of citizen journalism, too. Indymedia, for example, beat us to it by a number of years, albeit with a fairly narrow (and heavily slanted) political focus. From a wider perspective, a large number of bloggers see themselves as engaged in citizen journalism, especially those who write on politics and current events. Some of these news-ish bloggers have gotten enough funding that they have paid full-time staff, and do things reminiscent of traditional media, like attending press conferences and commissioning polls, and serving as hubs for many individuals' efforts (e.g. DailyKos). These do have a distinguishing feature of largely hubs based on a shared ideology, whether political partisanship or commitment to some particular cause (e.g. environmentalism). Wikinews does have the distinguishing feature of aiming to be an NPOV news hub. But that makes Wikinews's job actually harder, since it's easier to rally people around a cause than to rally them around the avowed lack of a cause. ;-) -Mark ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall - opportunity for citizen journalism!
My Problem with Wikinews is, that writing news is very time consuming and old news ist rather worthless. So the balance is bad. That is different to e.g. Wikipedia. A more collaborate way of writing news could reduce the cost of writing news, but after publishing it is loosing its worth still. What is old news for? Sage Ross schrieb: On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 7:33 AM, David Gerard dgerard-re5jqeeqqe8avxtiumw...@public.gmane.org wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/may/07/rupert-murdoch-charging-websites Time for Wikinews to get recruiting ... - d. Maybe we should also try rethinking how Wikinews works, namely, by following Clay Shirky's advice for social media and go where people are convening online, rather than starting a new place to convene. Wikinews isn't new, per se, but it's new to the great majority of established and potential citizen journalists out there. We need to find ways of bringing Wikinews--as an opportunity for collaboration, rather than finished product--to the places where real and potential citizen journalists convene. I blogged my thoughts in this vein a few days ago, http://ragesossscholar.blogspot.com/2009/05/rethinking-wikinews.html , but I'm sure there are lots of other potential ways to make Wikinews a positive and significant force in this period of turmoil for journalism. -Sage (User:Ragesoss) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l-rusutvdil2icgmh+5r0dm0b+6bgkl...@public.gmane.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
My Problem with Wikinews is, that writing news is very time consuming and old news ist rather worthless. So the balance is bad. That is different to e.g. Wikipedia. A more collaborate way of writing news could reduce the cost of writing news, but after publishing it is loosing its worth still. What is old news for? For NPOV. Hot news in mainstream media have very big POV. If you want good info you look for good media. Show me media with references. I see it maybe not only, but in Wikiews. So, we need more people, not only from Wikipedia. We need more partners - in pl wikinews we have ~ 20: http://tinyurl.com/25e7fm who allow us to copy under cc-by przykuta ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall -opportunity for citizen journalism!
Sage, I really liked your post about Wikinews. I really think that part of the thing holding back Wikinews is not just that they don't have a robust community yet (correct me if I'm wrong), but that they don't have what traditional news sources have: a well-oiled machine to broadcast their content across various mediums and draw in readers. At this point in time, the project should act just like any other news organization, and never assume that readers are going to flock to them. The clear advantage we hold as a body of volunteers and as a formal organization is that we have a strong understanding of web publishing, especially in comparision to dead tree news sources. The fact that we're not using that innate understanding to our advantage in transmitting Wikinews stories outside the site itself is a shame in my mind. Another is resources. I've spent hundreds of my own dollars on resources for Wikipedia (mostly books). I can imagine that quality original reporting for Wikinews would cost some amount of dough every time, not just when I wanted to gather special resources. What about microloans or grants for accredited Wikinews reporters, either from the Foundation or ala Spot.us? Steven On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Przykuta przyk...@o2.pl wrote: My Problem with Wikinews is, that writing news is very time consuming and old news ist rather worthless. So the balance is bad. That is different to e.g. Wikipedia. A more collaborate way of writing news could reduce the cost of writing news, but after publishing it is loosing its worth still. What is old news for? For NPOV. Hot news in mainstream media have very big POV. If you want good info you look for good media. Show me media with references. I see it maybe not only, but in Wikiews. So, we need more people, not only from Wikipedia. We need more partners - in pl wikinews we have ~ 20: http://tinyurl.com/25e7fm who allow us to copy under cc-by przykuta ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall - opportunity for citizen journalism!
David Gerard wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/may/07/rupert-murdoch-charging-websites Time for Wikinews to get recruiting ... Haha, Murdoch predicts the death of internet, newsreel at eleven. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Murdoch newspaper websites to go paywall - opportunity for citizen journalism!
I'm with Murdoch on this one. Have you seen what's happening to television at Hulu, and textbooks with the Kindle? Newspapers going behind a paywall is only too obvious. The current business model of give it away but put up some display ads is simply not sustainable. It only exists because a better business model has not yet presented itself. Textbook companies aren't going the way of many newspapers. They will only sell copies of their books that are tied to specific DRM models such as the Kindle provides, and they will artificially jack the prices up just as they have done with paper textbooks. The newspaper companies that haven't failed are likely to follow suit. Probably we are just seeing the beginning of the micropayment concept. I kind of prefer it as I really, really hate looking at advertisements. Hulu is nice enough to tell me how many seconds the advertisement lasts. I surf the web with mute on for exactly that long.. Kind of a mishmash of ideas but they seem quite related. We are definitely going through a shift from free to paid content online. Wikipedia is ever more important.. On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: David Gerard wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/may/07/rupert-murdoch-charging-websites Time for Wikinews to get recruiting ... Haha, Murdoch predicts the death of internet, newsreel at eleven. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
