Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
Gregory Maxwell writes: >> Imagine that someone cleaning your office took your important >> paperwork and dumped it in a bin. You complain— "Hey we need that >> stuff to be accessible!" and they retort "Thank you for your >> _feedback_. We'll consider it during our future cleaning plans". >> >> We're not just providing feedback here. We're collectively making a >> decision, as we've always done, thank you very much. Well put. It's great to see new things being tried. It seems to me this sort of change (any big change) might work out more smoothly if the final implementation of any major change was separated from its development. That implementation can be handled by people who have long experience specifically with collective decisions, rolling out changes, identifying and isolating controversial bits, &c. We're not bad at that within community discussions -- and the "line-item rollback" ability for people to simply undo specific changes that irk them makes this much, much easier to manage. Any time a central process becomes a bottleneck to "considering feedback" it becomes harder to swiftly reach a harmonious conclusion. On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Mark Williamson wrote: > I am convinced that the unique organizational structure of our > organization, in which the community has historically been given a > very high level of authority in the decision-making process, is one of > the key elements of our success. Almost certainly. > Have we entered a new chapter in our history as > a community in which we, the people who have helped build this > project, no longer get to help make the important decisions by > contributing our ideas and venting our frustrations? Absolutely not. SJ PS - as one more data point on the interlang links specifically: I also use the rollover text of interlanguage links for translation - even when I have other good translation resources handy. That is one of our great accomplishments, and we should make more noise about it, not less. :-) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
+1. I must admit I have been a bit surprised/shocked/irritated by the tone of the comments from some of those involved with the usability initiative. I always thought that Wikimedia valued community decision-making, but now I'm being told that my "feedback" is greatly appreciated and will be taken into consideration. That kind of attitude is what I was referring to earlier in this thread when I wondered to myself if Wikipedia had "jumped the shark"[1]. I am convinced that the unique organizational structure of our organization, in which the community has historically been given a very high level of authority in the decision-making process, is one of the key elements of our success. Are we going to let that go over the issue of UI usability? Have we entered a new chapter in our history as a community in which we, the people who have helped build this project, no longer get to help make the important decisions by contributing our ideas and venting our frustrations? Let me be the first to say that I am extraordinarily saddened at this thought. -m. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:37 PM, David Levy wrote: >> Sue Gardner wrote: >>> Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words >>> like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to. >> >> Perhaps you misread the context. Austin wrote the word "stupid" as a >> hypothetical example of nonconstructive commentary that should be >> avoided. No one has hurled an insult. > > Moreover "feedback" can itself be perceived as an insult. > > Imagine that someone cleaning your office took your important > paperwork and dumped it in a bin. You complain— "Hey we need that > stuff to be accessible!" and they retort "Thank you for your > _feedback_. We'll consider it during our future cleaning plans". > > We're not just providing feedback here. We're collectively making a > decision, as we've always done, thank you very much. > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:37 PM, David Levy wrote: > Sue Gardner wrote: >> Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words >> like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to. > > Perhaps you misread the context. Austin wrote the word "stupid" as a > hypothetical example of nonconstructive commentary that should be > avoided. No one has hurled an insult. Moreover "feedback" can itself be perceived as an insult. Imagine that someone cleaning your office took your important paperwork and dumped it in a bin. You complain— "Hey we need that stuff to be accessible!" and they retort "Thank you for your _feedback_. We'll consider it during our future cleaning plans". We're not just providing feedback here. We're collectively making a decision, as we've always done, thank you very much. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:47 AM, David Gerard wrote: > On 5 June 2010 19:40, Aphaia wrote: > >> What is the good reason usability team thought data from English >> Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all >> other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in >> opposition of your statement. > > > Indeed. There appears to be *no* community or reader groundswell in > favour of hiding the interwiki links by default. > > Where are the fans? So far I see Aryeh in favour. Is there anyone > else? On foundation-l or the blog? > > If this is such a good idea, where are the voices in favour, outside > the Foundation staff? To be fair, it's not like there's a real good mechanism for giving such opinions on discrete aspects of the skin (or anything else). I'd imagine about all there is besides listening to us whinge is clickthrough data (like reading tea leaves), the small usability studies, and the feedback from the Vector Beta. Let me repeat: On all of these questions that have been hotly debated this month: the logo, the search box, the other languages links, flaggedrevs we don't have a good way of figuring out what the users think. Hell, we don't even have a good way of figuring out what *we* think. Sue's right, Foundation-l is a tiny vocal minority and those of us commenting may or may not represent anyone other than ourselves. Same goes for the blog readers/commenters, who one expects may care more about Wikipedia than most of the casual readers out there. And I sure wouldn't presume to be able to magically synthesize the internet, read all of the comments about wikipedia out there, and give you an answer to such a (rhetorical?) question as "where are the voices in favour"? (and I do know enough about formal usability to know that usability studies can be more useful than they seem at first glance, but this problem of synthesizing widely held opinions & figuring out their relative weight is something all large communities & sites have). But even given all that, we all have valid opinions and points to make too. We have a tradition in this community of making decisions based on the quality of arguments made, not the sheer numbers of people involved in voting for one option or another, and I think to lose sight of that -- whether in usability or anything else -- would be bad. At the end of the day, I deeply respect the usability team for *trying new things*, even if we change it back later, and for trying to make good decisions with the arguments and data at hand. I see no bad faith here. Just a lively debate about what to do to make the best possible Wikipedia experience for everyone concerned, even when everyone concerned may use the site in wildly varying ways. -- phoebe ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
Thanks for your clarification, Sue. I see it irritates to hear words in such a tone to the team your office is expected to support, and expect therefore you understand people on the list, who get deeply involved into this cause and donate their time and works, irritate on bad communication and lack of scientific information which can relieve their worries. And thank you for responding in prompt; I confess you reminded me on yourself who I first met - it was in Taipei and you were busy to text on blackberry, it brought me a smile in midst of this heated discussion. Hope to see you and many other on this list, soon in Gdansk and elsewhere On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 4:15 AM, wrote: > I'm not weighing in on the specific issue Aphaia, and I'm sure Howie will say > more next week. My point is just what I said: the UX team is trying to > balance all users' needs, which may or may not be the same as the extremely > committed super-users who post here. Feedback is great, but it irritates me > when people start using words like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding > to. > > Thanks, > Sue > -Original Message- > From: Aphaia > Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 03:40:22 > To: ; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing > List > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a > BadIdea, part 2 > > On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM, wrote: >> Sorry for top-posting. >> >> Austin, think about who "everyone" is. The folks here on foundation-l are >> not representative of readers. The job of the user experience team is to >> try to balance all readers' needs, > > > Sue, not personal, but I think here I say, joining to the choir which > Jon and Eia began: > while English Wikipedia is the most visited websites of the Wikimedia, > it is only 50% and most of its readers are English Speaking. They have > no good reasons I believe to representative the rest of us non-English > speaking people who are 2/60 of this planet. > > What is the good reason usability team thought data from English > Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all > other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in > opposition of your statement. > > which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that > not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input, > but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has > made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this > particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.) >> >> Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, >> particularly this bit I'll quote below: >> >> "Users don't explicitly complain about small things. They >> especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the >> negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort >> required to find things. But if you take away a feature that's >> important to a small number of users, or that's well established and >> people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny >> minority of users. Basing development decisions on who complains the >> loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and >> confusing features and lousy UI. Like most open-source software, >> including MediaWiki. Good design requires systematic analysis, >> ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not >> representative." >> >> Thanks, >> Sue >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Austin Hair >> Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26 >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad >> Idea, part 2 >> >> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy wrote: >>> Austin Hair wrote: >>> >>>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and >>>> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected >>>> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a >>>> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid. >>> >>> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that >>> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting >>> anything of the sort). Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that >>> one has been made in this instance. As for a practical fix, one >>> actually was implemented (and quickly undone). >> >> Sorry if that wasn&#
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
Sue Gardner wrote: > Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words > like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to. Perhaps you misread the context. Austin wrote the word "stupid" as a hypothetical example of nonconstructive commentary that should be avoided. No one has hurled an insult. David Levy ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 8:03 PM, wrote: > Austin, think about who "everyone" is. The folks here on foundation-l are > not representative of readers. The job of the user experience team is to try > to balance all readers' needs, which is not easy, and will sometimes involve > making decisions that not everyone agrees with. People here have given some > useful input, but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team > has made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this > particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.) Regarding calling it a mistake, I'm making this judgment based not on my personal opinion—which is by now abundantly clear—but on the scientific basis that forming a conclusion without data makes for a bad conclusion. It's true that I wouldn't bother to weigh in on the process if I agreed with the outcome. I think that's true for most of us. But since I'm bothering anyway, I may as well say that the process is flawed, and the decision doesn't logically follow the facts—since we haven't measured (scientific jargon, here) the facts in the first place. Austin ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
I'm not weighing in on the specific issue Aphaia, and I'm sure Howie will say more next week. My point is just what I said: the UX team is trying to balance all users' needs, which may or may not be the same as the extremely committed super-users who post here. Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to. Thanks, Sue -Original Message- From: Aphaia Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 03:40:22 To: ; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM, wrote: > Sorry for top-posting. > > Austin, think about who "everyone" is. The folks here on foundation-l are > not representative of readers. The job of the user experience team is to try > to balance all readers' needs, Sue, not personal, but I think here I say, joining to the choir which Jon and Eia began: while English Wikipedia is the most visited websites of the Wikimedia, it is only 50% and most of its readers are English Speaking. They have no good reasons I believe to representative the rest of us non-English speaking people who are 2/60 of this planet. What is the good reason usability team thought data from English Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in opposition of your statement. which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input, but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.) > > Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, > particularly this bit I'll quote below: > > "Users don't explicitly complain about small things. They > especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the > negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort > required to find things. But if you take away a feature that's > important to a small number of users, or that's well established and > people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny > minority of users. Basing development decisions on who complains the > loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and > confusing features and lousy UI. Like most open-source software, > including MediaWiki. Good design requires systematic analysis, > ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not > representative." > > Thanks, > Sue > > -Original Message- > From: Austin Hair > Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26 > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad > Idea, part 2 > > On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy wrote: >> Austin Hair wrote: >> >>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and >>> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected >>> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a >>> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid. >> >> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that >> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting >> anything of the sort). Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that >> one has been made in this instance. As for a practical fix, one >> actually was implemented (and quickly undone). > > Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else > for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could > easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is > to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction. > > Austin > >___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
Wikipedia is a multilingual reference work. The visibility of the interwiki links made that plain. Please restore them. A. --- On Sat, 5/6/10, David Gerard wrote: > From: David Gerard > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a > BadIdea, part 2 > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" > Date: Saturday, 5 June, 2010, 19:47 > On 5 June 2010 19:40, Aphaia > wrote: > > > What is the good reason usability team thought data > from English > > Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to > design for all > > other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an > obvious mistake in > > opposition of your statement. > > > Indeed. There appears to be *no* community or reader > groundswell in > favour of hiding the interwiki links by default. > > Where are the fans? So far I see Aryeh in favour. Is there > anyone > else? On foundation-l or the blog? > > If this is such a good idea, where are the voices in > favour, outside > the Foundation staff? > > For a decision that directly contradicts the words of the > mission > statement, by hampering the process of people finding > knowlege in > their own language, this really does not appear good > enough. > > Where is the communtiy or reader groundswell *in favour* of > this move? > It appears nonexistent. > > > - d. > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
I wrote: > I also wait the answers to these questions. wait = await David Levy ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
Sue Gardner wrote: > The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers. Many novice users have expressed confusion, frustration and disapproval. This isn't a representative sample either, but it's the only reader feedback that we have (to weigh against the user experience team's hunch). > The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' > needs, which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions > that not everyone agrees with. Agreed. But we've established that the usability study did not include this issue. So while it's difficult to determine the extent to which users have been adversely affected, there is no evidence that *any* users were adversely affected by the previous setup or benefited from the change. This is not to say that no improvement is possible. We simply don't know at this juncture. What's so unreasonable about the request to restore the longstanding behavior (with the additional option to collapse the links) until evidence of an actual problem (and net benefit of the change) exists? > People here have given some useful input, but I think it's far from > obvious that the user experience team has made a "mistake.". Setting aside the issue of whether the change was beneficial (which would require formal research to accurately assess), I strongly believe that implementing it on the basis of speculation (with no advance consultation with or notification to the community, despite the existence of a beta test program) was a mistake. I also find it extremely troubling that the team has interpreted interwiki link usage data from the English Wikipedia as applicable to all Wikimedia wikis (given the intention to deploy this setup across the board). I would be shocked to learn that the interwiki links don't receive substantially more use within other Wikipedias (particularly the smaller ones, whose articles often contain less information). David Gerard wrote: > I notice that Howie Fung avoided answering my question: What would it > take for this decision to be reversed? > > Also, you may be able to answer the question of what would happen if a > wiki showed community conensus to remove this. Would the foundation > forcibly keep it in place? I also wait the answers to these questions. David Levy ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
On 5 June 2010 19:40, Aphaia wrote: > What is the good reason usability team thought data from English > Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all > other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in > opposition of your statement. Indeed. There appears to be *no* community or reader groundswell in favour of hiding the interwiki links by default. Where are the fans? So far I see Aryeh in favour. Is there anyone else? On foundation-l or the blog? If this is such a good idea, where are the voices in favour, outside the Foundation staff? For a decision that directly contradicts the words of the mission statement, by hampering the process of people finding knowlege in their own language, this really does not appear good enough. Where is the communtiy or reader groundswell *in favour* of this move? It appears nonexistent. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
Well, I would have liked to mean, English speaking people is only 2/60 global population, it would be obvious though, I'd like to give a stat collection. Cheers, On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:40 AM, Aphaia wrote: > On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM, wrote: >> Sorry for top-posting. >> >> Austin, think about who "everyone" is. The folks here on foundation-l are >> not representative of readers. The job of the user experience team is to >> try to balance all readers' needs, > > > Sue, not personal, but I think here I say, joining to the choir which > Jon and Eia began: > while English Wikipedia is the most visited websites of the Wikimedia, > it is only 50% and most of its readers are English Speaking. They have > no good reasons I believe to representative the rest of us non-English > speaking people who are 2/60 of this planet. > > What is the good reason usability team thought data from English > Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all > other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in > opposition of your statement. > > which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that > not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input, > but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has > made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this > particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.) >> >> Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, >> particularly this bit I'll quote below: >> >> "Users don't explicitly complain about small things. They >> especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the >> negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort >> required to find things. But if you take away a feature that's >> important to a small number of users, or that's well established and >> people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny >> minority of users. Basing development decisions on who complains the >> loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and >> confusing features and lousy UI. Like most open-source software, >> including MediaWiki. Good design requires systematic analysis, >> ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not >> representative." >> >> Thanks, >> Sue >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Austin Hair >> Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26 >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad >> Idea, part 2 >> >> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy wrote: >>> Austin Hair wrote: >>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid. >>> >>> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that >>> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting >>> anything of the sort). Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that >>> one has been made in this instance. As for a practical fix, one >>> actually was implemented (and quickly undone). >> >> Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else >> for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could >> easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is >> to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction. >> >> Austin >> >> ___ >> foundation-l mailing list >> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >> ___ >> foundation-l mailing list >> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >> > > > > -- > KIZU Naoko > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD > -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM, wrote: > Sorry for top-posting. > > Austin, think about who "everyone" is. The folks here on foundation-l are > not representative of readers. The job of the user experience team is to try > to balance all readers' needs, Sue, not personal, but I think here I say, joining to the choir which Jon and Eia began: while English Wikipedia is the most visited websites of the Wikimedia, it is only 50% and most of its readers are English Speaking. They have no good reasons I believe to representative the rest of us non-English speaking people who are 2/60 of this planet. What is the good reason usability team thought data from English Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in opposition of your statement. which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input, but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.) > > Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, > particularly this bit I'll quote below: > > "Users don't explicitly complain about small things. They > especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the > negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort > required to find things. But if you take away a feature that's > important to a small number of users, or that's well established and > people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny > minority of users. Basing development decisions on who complains the > loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and > confusing features and lousy UI. Like most open-source software, > including MediaWiki. Good design requires systematic analysis, > ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not > representative." > > Thanks, > Sue > > -Original Message- > From: Austin Hair > Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26 > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad > Idea, part 2 > > On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy wrote: >> Austin Hair wrote: >> >>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and >>> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected >>> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a >>> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid. >> >> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that >> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting >> anything of the sort). Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that >> one has been made in this instance. As for a practical fix, one >> actually was implemented (and quickly undone). > > Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else > for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could > easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is > to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction. > > Austin > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
On 5 June 2010 19:03, wrote: > Austin, think about who "everyone" is. The folks here on foundation-l are > not representative of readers. The job of the user experience team is to try > to balance all readers' needs, which is not easy, and will sometimes involve > making decisions that not everyone agrees with. People here have given some > useful input, but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team > has made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this > particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.) The readers are not objecting on foundation-l. They are objecting on the blog. I notice that Howie Fung avoided answering my question: What would it take for this decision to be reversed? Also, you may be able to answer the question of what would happen if a wiki showed community conensus to remove this. Would the foundation forcibly keep it in place? - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
Sorry for top-posting. Austin, think about who "everyone" is. The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers. The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' needs, which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input, but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.) Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, particularly this bit I'll quote below: "Users don't explicitly complain about small things. They especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort required to find things. But if you take away a feature that's important to a small number of users, or that's well established and people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny minority of users. Basing development decisions on who complains the loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and confusing features and lousy UI. Like most open-source software, including MediaWiki. Good design requires systematic analysis, ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not representative." Thanks, Sue -Original Message- From: Austin Hair Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2 On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy wrote: > Austin Hair wrote: > >> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and >> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected >> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a >> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid. > > Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that > the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting > anything of the sort). Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that > one has been made in this instance. As for a practical fix, one > actually was implemented (and quickly undone). Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction. Austin ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
