Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Fri, 2016-09-16 at 20:33 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> Ironically, I was serving as his conduit into the list(s).
> I will certainly stop.
> 
> Which of these lists is he banned from?  Both?

I don't know, but maybe he's just not subscribed. If so, his posts
won't appear until approved by a moderator.

Michael
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[Richard Stallman]

  > My guess is that Lefty is replying publicly, that his posts are not
  > being allowed through the list for some reason, and that Richard
  > understandably does not realize nobody else can see the posts he is
  > replying to.

Ironically, I was serving as his conduit into the list(s).
I will certainly stop.

Which of these lists is he banned from?  Both?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[Jens Georg]

> I do not understand.  What I am doing is sending the reply to a
> message to the same lists that the other message went to.  I do that
> because these messages attack me and I deserve a chance to respond.

I assumed that you were accidently moving a conversation from the
private ML to the public one, missing the part you were replying to.

Apparently there is a moderation hickup, so sorry about that.
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[Nuritzi Sanchez]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Richard Stallman  wrote:

>   > Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private mailing
>   > list to a public one? Thank you.
>
> I do not understand.  What I am doing is sending the reply to a
> message to the same lists that the other message went to.  I do that
> because these messages attack me and I deserve a chance to respond.
>
> What is it about this that is wrong?
> Would you please spell out concretely what actions you are criticizing?
> What, concretely, are you asking me to do instead?
>

Hi Richard, you're not doing anything wrong. I think the problem is with
the moderation of the emails. Lefty's emails may not all be coming in, so
it's hard to know if everyone has seen the entire conversation unfold. I'm
not the foundation-list moderator, so I'm basing my response on Shaun's
last email.

*@Everyone *- The Foundation list does not need to know the entire
conversation going on. It's not our business and seems to be personal
between two members. I agree that we should protect members from
harassment.

*@Richard* and *@Lefty*, if either of you feels like you are being
personally harassed, please send an email to
coc-working-group-l...@gnome.org describing the full concern and we'll try
to help. The entire Foundation list no longer needs to be involved in the
threads you guys are sending as it has devloved from being productive and
has become more personal. Let's try to have a constructive conversation
instead of one full of personal attacks.

I'd like to raise the point that we do not have an organizational CoC with
a strong enforcement policy. This is something the CoC Working Group is
hoping to propose as a Phase II of this project. This would help with what
James is talking about.

It takes each and every one of us to promote a safe and welcoming space. We
hope that you'll help us remain productive through this CoC drafting
process and welcome more resources and examples for us all to learn from.



>
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[Richard Stallman]

  > Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private mailing 
  > list to a public one? Thank you.

I do not understand.  What I am doing is sending the reply to a
message to the same lists that the other message went to.  I do that
because these messages attack me and I deserve a chance to respond.

What is it about this that is wrong?
Would you please spell out concretely what actions you are criticizing?
What, concretely, are you asking me to do instead?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[Shaun McCance]

On Fri, 2016-09-16 at 07:04 +0200, Jens Georg wrote:
> Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private
> mailing 
> list to a public one? Thank you.

In Richard's defense, I don't believe the emails he's replying to are
intended to be private. In the mailing list archives, there are a
number of "Message not available" entries:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2016-September/thread.h
tml

My guess is that Lefty is replying publicly, that his posts are not
being allowed through the list for some reason, and that Richard
understandably does not realize nobody else can see the posts he is
replying to.

> > 
> > > 
> > > My constructive criticism is that you not take your code of
> >   > conduct guidance from people who are unrepentant poster
> > children
> >   > for the need for a code of conduct.
> > 
> > He's exaggerating about me, but that's the smaller error.  His
> > fundamental error is in the general premise that he wants us to
> > accept
> > without examination: that we should judge proposals based on
> > opinions
> > about the people who worked on them.
> > 
> > We should judge proposals based on what they say and their effects,
> > not based on personalities.
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[James]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Jens Georg  wrote:
>>
>> I do agree that seeing only part of the conversation isn't
>> particularly helpful,
>
>
> Sorry for not making this clear, that was the point I was trying to make
> here. Nothing else.

Indeed, now an apology from me, if it wasn't clear that I wasn't
trying to interject against you, but rather both:
1) agree with your comment
2) ask if someone is looking into helping deal with the alleged harassment.

I still haven't heard anything about (2) but hope that it is resolved soon.
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[Jens Georg]

I do agree that seeing only part of the conversation isn't
particularly helpful,


Sorry for not making this clear, that was the point I was trying to make 
here. Nothing else.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

[James]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 1:04 AM, Jens Georg  wrote:
> Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private mailing list
> to a public one? Thank you.

I have to interject here. What it sounds like is that one foundation
list member (doesn't matter who it is) is getting harassed (possibly
off-list to some degree) by another person. I would hope that the
foundation can take steps to decide if this alleged intimidation is
happening or not, and if so, to help remedy the situation.

I do agree that seeing only part of the conversation isn't
particularly helpful, but hopefully someone on the foundation board
can ensure that this can be made at least somewhat of a safe and
welcome space.

Thanks
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