Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
I agree 100% here, just because we're supposed to have an ideology of free software doesn't mean we should be against using non-free software. The central point of the free software movement is that non-free software tramples the users' freedom. We must not ever treat non-free software as a solution, because that would contradict and undermine our principles. The Expectnation service may not be an example of releasing non-free software, so this issue may not apply to it. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 04:43:04PM +, Karl Lattimer wrote: > On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 17:24 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote: > I agree 100% here, just because we're supposed to have an ideology of > free software doesn't mean we should be against using non-free software. > Hell, dreamweaver is an awesome product! You've just insulted a lot of Free Software developers who aim to rid the world of DreamWeaver by providing excellent web-page-design-GUI software. > This logic extends further that > if we are able to help Expectnation become open source (as a previous > post suggested), then the way to do that is to embrace it now... You seem to be unfamiliar with the story of BitKeeper... > Especially as it has features which are invaluable to GUADEC being a > success in 2008! I very much hope the "features" that make GUADEC a success are the quaility of the presentations... :) Rui -- Or is it? Today is Pungenday, the 3rd day of Chaos in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 20:50 +, Alan Cox wrote: > > I agree 100% here, just because we're supposed to have an ideology of > > free software doesn't mean we should be against using non-free software. > > Hell, dreamweaver is an awesome product! This logic extends further that > > if we are able to help Expectnation become open source (as a previous > > post suggested), then the way to do that is to embrace it now... > > Especially as it has features which are invaluable to GUADEC being a > > success in 2008! > > If you rely on proprietary then you need to account for all the bad > things it brings as well as the convenience in this case. Yes. We've already had assurances that all the data will be exportable in standard formats such as XML. I haven't seen the formats, but we aren't talking about spreadsheets or a wordprocessor so I am quite confident that it'll be something simple that we can use. > What happens if Expectnation goes out of business before guadec 2008 ? > What is the backup plan ? I'm not saying Expectnation isn't the right > choice but that you have to do the rest of the work that goes with a > proprietary choice. Luckily, we can consider this as a one-off at first. Most of our previous cobbled-together systems have been unusable soon after the end of GUADEC (or during or before), and we've survived that. If we come to depend on it in the long term, then my answers are: - Don't depend on it in the long term if it continues to be proprietary. 2 GUADECS would be my limit. This would be a harder decision to make at the time, of course, but I'm confident that the pressure to be open will remain. - Use the XML when we need to. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
> I agree 100% here, just because we're supposed to have an ideology of > free software doesn't mean we should be against using non-free software. > Hell, dreamweaver is an awesome product! This logic extends further that > if we are able to help Expectnation become open source (as a previous > post suggested), then the way to do that is to embrace it now... > Especially as it has features which are invaluable to GUADEC being a > success in 2008! If you rely on proprietary then you need to account for all the bad things it brings as well as the convenience in this case. What happens if Expectnation goes out of business before guadec 2008 ? What is the backup plan ? I'm not saying Expectnation isn't the right choice but that you have to do the rest of the work that goes with a proprietary choice. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 17:24 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote: > On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 23:09 +0200, Baris Cicek wrote: > > And whatever we do we need to do it quickly > > You are not going to put together a completely new system in time, using > Drupal or anything else. That's not your fault and you shouldn't be > punished for it. You probably do have time to try Expectnation and to > configure it as you need. If you choose to waste time twiddling with > ideologically-sound systems then the masses will blame you (rather than > the zealots who persuaded you) for it later. > I agree 100% here, just because we're supposed to have an ideology of free software doesn't mean we should be against using non-free software. Hell, dreamweaver is an awesome product! This logic extends further that if we are able to help Expectnation become open source (as a previous post suggested), then the way to do that is to embrace it now... Especially as it has features which are invaluable to GUADEC being a success in 2008! K, ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 16:43 +, Karl Lattimer wrote: > On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 17:24 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote: > > On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 23:09 +0200, Baris Cicek wrote: > > > And whatever we do we need to do it quickly > > > > You are not going to put together a completely new system in time, using > > Drupal or anything else. That's not your fault and you shouldn't be > > punished for it. You probably do have time to try Expectnation and to > > configure it as you need. If you choose to waste time twiddling with > > ideologically-sound systems then the masses will blame you (rather than > > the zealots who persuaded you) for it later. > > > > I agree 100% here, just because we're supposed to have an ideology of > free software doesn't mean we should be against using non-free software. > Hell, dreamweaver is an awesome product! This logic extends further that > if we are able to help Expectnation become open source (as a previous > post suggested), then the way to do that is to embrace it now... > Especially as it has features which are invaluable to GUADEC being a > success in 2008! > > K, Ok, we need to separate out a couple of arguments to be precise here. I'm not against using non-free software if it fills a need that can not be filled by free software. However to look at this and say just use Expectnation without having a debate on the board is wrong. Murry's been playing the emotion card a bit too much lately (I object to being called a zealot) and others are ready to ditch free software solutions without taking a bit to really look at the requirements and seeing what matches up (no system so far has been able to streamline the issues of moving money into and out of Turkey for instance). BTW "completely new system" stretches the truth a bit. As others have posted Drupal does have conference plugins. Whether they are adequate is something to be seen. That being said, there is a requirement for the Foundation as the face of one of the biggest free software organizations to encourage the use of free software and foster its growth. A hint of perhaps someday, something might open up the sources does not enter into the equation. That punishes the people who have worked on solutions which are already free software. So, let the board do its work and weigh the pros and cons of each option. We might in the end go with Expectnation or we might go with Drupal or some other system someone brings to our attention. If someone has something constructive to add to our evaluation then please do. Leave all the name calling and rush to judgment out of it though. -- John (J5) Palmieri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
On Jan 2, 2008 12:09 AM, Paul Cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > As far as the expectnation v. free software debate, I think we should > have a preference for free software I previously wrote about expectnation non being free software, well that's not right and I have to apologize. The software that runs Expectnation have just one user, the company tha runs the site, which also have full rights on that sotware. If the statment above is correct means that the company (the only one that has a copy of the software) also _has_ the four freedoms, this means that _it is_ free software in a trivial way. Sorry about the noise of my previous message. cheers -- Gian Mario Tagliaretti ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 23:09 +0200, Baris Cicek wrote: > And whatever we do we need to do it quickly You are not going to put together a completely new system in time, using Drupal or anything else. That's not your fault and you shouldn't be punished for it. You probably do have time to try Expectnation and to configure it as you need. If you choose to waste time twiddling with ideologically-sound systems then the masses will blame you (rather than the zealots who persuaded you) for it later. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [guadec-list] Re-considering expectnation web service
On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 23:09 +0200, Baris Cicek wrote: > On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 14:21 -0500, John (J5) Palmieri wrote: > > On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 18:28 +0100, Xavier Bestel wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > On sam, 2007-12-29 at 00:35 +, Baris Cicek wrote: > > > > Currently we're using Drupal as CMS on guadec.org. Although it is > > > > convenient if you want to use web page only for announcements but it > > > > lacks functional bits like Registration Management, CfP and Schedule > > > > preparing/announcement etc. > > > > > > Drupal has many, many modules implementing various features, and I would > > > be very surprised if it couldn't do what you want. Just look at > > > Event-related modules, they may match your case: > > > http://drupal.org/project/Modules/category/61 > > > > > > And then, if assembling Drupal modules together is too much work (it may > > > be), or if you miss a bit of custom PHP code, you could just ask on > > > http://drupal.org/paid-services for some professional help. IMHO, this > > > is much more in line with GNOME's ideals. > > > > > > Xav > > > > While I agree with Edd that the conference organizer's job is not to > > build web systems it is the Foundation Board's job to seek out solutions > > which both fit the need and are in-line with the community's > > expectations and values. It is clear that there are other solutions > > available and we need to consider them. > And whatever we do we need to do it quickly. I want to make first look > of new site to be ready on mid-January. On guadec-local list we're > getting help from designers for a new look of web site. Worst case is to > polish current design a little bit and use it. > > On infrastructure part maintenance should be job of some volunteer and > anyone having skill on Drupal are very welcome for this job. I have no > idea which bits from linux.conf.au we can get, > > I would be happy to see such volunteer work on this area. Past two > GUADECs we somehow managed to live with current system. However my > concerns with this system was due to feedback from previous organizers. > It is obvious that we need to improve it more. Yes, I wouldn't want to re-use much of the system we used last year - we managed to get through with it but it was far from smooth. > > Can we get a detailed list from the conference committee on what their > > requirements are for such a system so that the board members may discuss > > this at the upcoming meeting? I will push for an action item to get > > someone to evaluate the different options, report back to the board and > > make a decision in a timely manner. > > > I would happily delegate this action to someone having time to donate on > this task as I stated above. Whatever system we use one problem will > still persist, which is how to transfer money for registration. As far > as I realized neither Paypal nor Google Checkout transfers money to > Turkey. I was hoping that expectnation would provide this service > itself, but it's not doing that. We will need to solve it with some > other way before registrations are open. > > Basically what we need are the following features: > > - Submit paper, letting review by program committee, and host/announce > those papers/presentations about it, and maybe videos later on. > > - Registration should be streamlined / who is paid, how, and at which > level should be manageable. > > - Schedule should be clearly viewed. I would suggest you also need a way to track sponsorship requests; * Track all requests * Status: pending / accepted / rejected * Track email / messages to / from applicant * Allow organisers to mail to groups via status (i.e. send message to all accepted applicants) It might be nice to track the applicants costs, but that would depend on how this years organisers want to track that stuff. I don't think it's critical that this system is integrated with the CMS - we used an issue tracker module for Drupal that was OK, but not great (it also attracted a load of spam). As far as the expectnation v. free software debate, I think we should have a preference for free software, however ultimately it's Baris' call he should be free to choose whichever allows him to maximise his resources and allow him and the 08 team to get the job done. Feel free to flame us (the 07 team) after the fact for relying on Google docs quite heavily (and if the board want to sponsor the development of a free software equivalent that works with Gnumeric and Abiword then that would be great ;-). Paul > And what would be good to have are: > > - Efficient content management should exist, like attaching documents, > maybe wikified pages etc. Possibility to post news, maybe forum-like > conference time discussion fields. > > - Features like newsletter subscription, RSS feeds etc. > > - Personal calendars for subscribers for them to make their own > watch-list during conference. > > If we can do most of it with Drupal it is better, but we n
