Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
Richard, I also like to see you show up in the GNOME Advisory Board meetings and mailing list as FSF's representative. Does that require travel, or can it be done by phone? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Dec 4, 2007 11:55 AM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, I also like to see you show up in the GNOME Advisory Board meetings and mailing list as FSF's representative. Does that require travel, or can it be done by phone? Typically by phone, though once annually by travel. I should note that I think that Brad has done an admirable job representing FSF over the past several years in this forum. Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
I don't recall that any candidate explicily rejected supporting the free software movement by means other than improving the attractiveness and success of GNOME. But several candidates answered in a way that seemed to pointedly imply a rejection of any such form of support for the community. I answered about the success of GNOME, mostly because I didn't read what you now raise as the point of your original question. I'm sorry I expressed myself badly before. Now the point has been clarified. How do you think the GNOME Foundation (and GNOME) should try to help the broader free software movement, beyond the contribution which GNOME makes by being successful free software? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
quote who=Richard Stallman I don't recall that any candidate explicily rejected supporting the free software movement by means other than improving the attractiveness and success of GNOME. But several candidates answered in a way that seemed to pointedly imply a rejection of any such form of support for the community. I answered about the success of GNOME, mostly because I didn't read what you now raise as the point of your original question. - Jeff -- GNOME.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australia http://live.gnome.org/Melbourne2008 Learning and doing is the true spirit of free software -- learning without doing gets you academic sterility, and doing without learning is all too often the way things are done in proprietary software. - Raph Levien ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
The reason this is not so is that Microsoft is trying to spin the apparent support of GNOME into proof that OOXML is not bad for free software. Such a risk is always there. People who base their information on what one side of a story says are doomed to hear everything but truth in 99% of situations. If that occurred only at random due to carelessness, we could dismiss it that way. However, it seems that Microsoft pays people to systematically give officials one-sided pictures. We should follow the advice of people in the anti-OOXML campaign when they report on what they see. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 09:41:24AM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Richard Stallman The reason this is not so is that Microsoft is trying to spin the apparent support of GNOME into proof that OOXML is not bad for free software. Microsoft haven't done so publicly thus far, but the risk is there, and we will endeavour to make it absolutely clear that our participation does not imply endorsement, contribution or support. We've taken one step already with our statement on our participation, and you are sure to see more in the future. I've heard Stephen McGibbon himself say to Portuguese TC-173 such suggestions. He made a quick list to show there is support from the Free Software community, and one of the references was de Icaza *from*GNOME*, another was a lawyer who has worked with OSI, Jody, etc... Just so you may know for sure that in closed circles they *are* spinning it. Rui -- Keep the Lasagna flying! Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 42nd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 07:37:27PM -0500, Luis Villa wrote: On Nov 28, 2007 7:15 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see how the foundation can 'make sure' of anything in this instance. It can not force developers towards or away from either spec. That is simply not in it's mandate. I may be being obtuse, but what's not in it's mandate for ODF but is for OOXML? Or am I reading your words wrong? Yes, you are. :) He means that we can't force anyone to do anything. In the OOXML case, someone came to the board and volunteered, and the board helped out. There was no mandate there. Similarly, if someone came and volunteered to work on ODF, the board would (presumably) seek to join the relevant standards bodies so that that volunteer could participate. But we can't force anyone to go do that work for us. Thanks. We all appear to agree that implementing ODF is good for FLOSS. However, beyond that there's no stick, and a carrot (eg funding) seems inappropriate (why this project vs the dozens of others). Or one another in particular? For a fake standard, there is funding? What funding? No one is paying Jody to do what he does on OOXML; again, he is a volunteer, doing things voluntarily. If someone were to volunteer for ODF, the board would facilitate it. But the board isn't going to pay anyone to work on either standard. Thanks. -- Or is it? Today is Pungenday, the 41st day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:09:31PM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 12:15:11AM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 06:23:57PM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:34:54PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF I don't see how the foundation can 'make sure' of anything in this instance. It can not force developers towards or away from either spec. That is simply not in it's mandate. I may be being obtuse, but what's not in it's mandate for ODF but is for OOXML? Or am I reading your words wrong? I will try to be clearer. Thank you! :) We all appear to agree that implementing ODF is good for FLOSS. However, beyond that there's no stick, and a carrot (eg funding) seems inappropriate (why this project vs the dozens of others). Or one another in particular? For a fake standard, there is funding? I have no idea what you are talking about. No money has been spent, nor will any money be spent joining ECMA. As we've stated on numerous occasions the foundation is a non-profit entity and was given a _FREE_ _NON-VOTING_ membership. Thank you. The board has offered to try and facilitate a membership in OASIS for an interested candidate. The will is there, but like so much else we're short on man power. We'd welcome patches to improve the ODF exporter in Gnumeric or abiword. I'd prefer to be spending my time coding to these endless discussions of ISO-tactics. I think I might have missed this, where is it? I can't seem to find it, but it's late here and my googling skills may be already too hampered... It == Gnumeric ODF support ? http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gnumeric/trunk/plugins/openoffice/ It == Joining OASIS ? It's been mentioned numerous times in various forums. Indeed when we first mentioned that I would be joining ECMA it was discussed that it would be good to get an OASIS membership too. This one. I don't recall seing it on foundation-list or foundation announce, though. I confess not to follow *all* forum sites. If you (or anyone else) is interested talk to the board. That is all it takes. I'd love to do it, but the weekly meetings are too much of a commitment at this point. My day job is not paying me to take part in standards organizations or FLOSS. I'd love to, but it very likely requires some geographical proximity I can't afford (US, or plane travels). Best, Rui -- You are what you see. Today is Pungenday, the 41st day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 08:25:30AM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:09:31PM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: If you (or anyone else) is interested talk to the board. That is all it takes. I'd love to do it, but the weekly meetings are too much of a commitment at this point. My day job is not paying me to take part in standards organizations or FLOSS. I'd love to, but it very likely requires some geographical proximity I can't afford (US, or plane travels). There is no requirement for travel. All relevant discussion takes place on mailing lists and conference calls. The only significant requirements are time and expertise. Time being the more important factor. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 05:40:47AM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 08:25:30AM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:09:31PM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: If you (or anyone else) is interested talk to the board. That is all it takes. I'd love to do it, but the weekly meetings are too much of a commitment at this point. My day job is not paying me to take part in standards organizations or FLOSS. I'd love to, but it very likely requires some geographical proximity I can't afford (US, or plane travels). There is no requirement for travel. All relevant discussion takes place on mailing lists and conference calls. The only significant requirements are time and expertise. Time being the more important factor. If there's no geographical limitation or travel needs, please consider my offer to help in this regard *iif* nobody better suited comes along. I will likely happen to tackle this issue on the Portuguese TC-173 in the future, anyway, unless it's still Microsoft-controlled, in which case I still don't know what the future will be. Rui -- Fnord. Today is Pungenday, the 41st day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
What funding? No one is paying Jody to do what he does on OOXML; again, he is a volunteer, doing things voluntarily. If someone were to volunteer for ODF, the board would facilitate it. But the board isn't going to pay anyone to work on either standard. We have analogous situations in Emacs development. It is done by volunteers, so we can't direct anyone to implement a new feature for use on GNU/Linux, and we can't direct anyone to implement a new feature for use on Windows. Both are done if and when someone volunteers. But if someone offers to contribute code that implements a feature on Windows which we don't have on GNU/Linux, I tell him that we can't install it until the feature also works on GNU/Linux. That's because our goal is to replace proprietary systems, not enhance them. Occasionally this means Emacs works less well on Windows than it might have, but that's no real loss. More often it convinces someone to implement the new feature on GNU/Linux, and we install it for both platforms. Either way, it is better than installing a Windows-only feature. In pursuit of the broader goal of software freedom, it would make sense for GNOME to adopt an analogous policy not to give support to OOMXL any sort of support that it doesn't also give to ODF. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
quote who=Richard Stallman The reason this is not so is that Microsoft is trying to spin the apparent support of GNOME into proof that OOXML is not bad for free software. Microsoft haven't done so publicly thus far, but the risk is there, and we will endeavour to make it absolutely clear that our participation does not imply endorsement, contribution or support. We've taken one step already with our statement on our participation, and you are sure to see more in the future. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australiahttp://lca2008.linux.org.au/ No clue is good clue. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 17:32 -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: The reason this is not so is that Microsoft is trying to spin the apparent support of GNOME into proof that OOXML is not bad for free software. Such a risk is always there. People who base their information on what one side of a story says are doomed to hear everything but truth in 99% of situations. -- behdad http://behdad.org/ Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
Hello, One question to candidates: Wil you promote the Foundation's participation on the reviewing of ODF? I'm sure it won't be for lack of a sponsor, but I think it is much more important to the Free Software world to have a true Open Standard for office documents, regardless of MS OOXML's outcome, and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF with GNOME based Free Software. Thanks, Rui -- Or is it? Today is Boomtime, the 40th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 21:34 +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Hello, One question to candidates: Wil you promote the Foundation's participation on the reviewing of ODF? I think it is a no brainier that we should support review of any version of ODF. That being said it would be up to someone within the community to step forward and say they needed help from the foundation to participate in the review. The foundation may wish to actively seek out someone appropriate to do so also but I don't see it being a problem finding someone to volunteer. However, the question is overly broad. The foundation itself is not going to be helping define the next ODF but should support community members who wish to join any steering committee provided the member is appropriate and committed for such a task. -- John (J5) Palmieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 06:23:57PM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:34:54PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Hello, One question to candidates: Wil you promote the Foundation's participation on the reviewing of ODF? I'm sure it won't be for lack of a sponsor, but I think it is much more important to the Free Software world to have a true Open Standard for office documents, regardless of MS OOXML's outcome, and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF with GNOME based Free Software. I don't see how the foundation can 'make sure' of anything in this instance. It can not force developers towards or away from either spec. That is simply not in it's mandate. I may be being obtuse, but what's not in it's mandate for ODF but is for OOXML? Or am I reading your words wrong? We all appear to agree that implementing ODF is good for FLOSS. However, beyond that there's no stick, and a carrot (eg funding) seems inappropriate (why this project vs the dozens of others). Or one another in particular? For a fake standard, there is funding? The board has offered to try and facilitate a membership in OASIS for an interested candidate. The will is there, but like so much else we're short on man power. We'd welcome patches to improve the ODF exporter in Gnumeric or abiword. I'd prefer to be spending my time coding to these endless discussions of ISO-tactics. I think I might have missed this, where is it? I can't seem to find it, but it's late here and my googling skills may be already too hampered... Rui -- Kallisti! Today is Pungenday, the 41st day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Nov 28, 2007 7:15 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see how the foundation can 'make sure' of anything in this instance. It can not force developers towards or away from either spec. That is simply not in it's mandate. I may be being obtuse, but what's not in it's mandate for ODF but is for OOXML? Or am I reading your words wrong? Yes, you are. :) He means that we can't force anyone to do anything. In the OOXML case, someone came to the board and volunteered, and the board helped out. There was no mandate there. Similarly, if someone came and volunteered to work on ODF, the board would (presumably) seek to join the relevant standards bodies so that that volunteer could participate. But we can't force anyone to go do that work for us. We all appear to agree that implementing ODF is good for FLOSS. However, beyond that there's no stick, and a carrot (eg funding) seems inappropriate (why this project vs the dozens of others). Or one another in particular? For a fake standard, there is funding? What funding? No one is paying Jody to do what he does on OOXML; again, he is a volunteer, doing things voluntarily. If someone were to volunteer for ODF, the board would facilitate it. But the board isn't going to pay anyone to work on either standard. Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
quote who=Gregory Leblanc While this is all technically true, I think it's somewhat misleading, based on my recollections, and what I could find in a brief browse of the mailing list archives. There was much clearer leadership in the community then, but I do not believe that the community came to a conclusion that we would cede development of a GNOME office to OpenOffice.org. My impression of what happened was more that the community never got a cohesive and self-sustaining effort going to make a GNOME Office suite happen. It certainly wasn't a consensus, or a clear decision, but the energy of popular thought in the community along with decreased investment led to us ceding our office/productivity leadership at the time to OpenOffice.org. We were actually well ahead, but OpenOffice.org had the weight of existing features, code and commercial interest. Thinking about it in those terms, I regret it even more. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australiahttp://lca2008.linux.org.au/ Spam is about consent, not content. - Craig Sanders ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 12:15:11AM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 06:23:57PM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:34:54PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF I don't see how the foundation can 'make sure' of anything in this instance. It can not force developers towards or away from either spec. That is simply not in it's mandate. I may be being obtuse, but what's not in it's mandate for ODF but is for OOXML? Or am I reading your words wrong? I will try to be clearer. The foundation can not force the developers to implement or not to implement. It has no control of the members. Specificly, the foundation can not require that - People implement MOOX - People not implement MOOX - People implement ODF - People not implement ODF There is no difference in the situation between ODF, MOOX, or any other technology. By design, neither the foundation nor the board has enforcement capabilities. We all appear to agree that implementing ODF is good for FLOSS. However, beyond that there's no stick, and a carrot (eg funding) seems inappropriate (why this project vs the dozens of others). Or one another in particular? For a fake standard, there is funding? I have no idea what you are talking about. No money has been spent, nor will any money be spent joining ECMA. As we've stated on numerous occasions the foundation is a non-profit entity and was given a _FREE_ _NON-VOTING_ membership. The board has offered to try and facilitate a membership in OASIS for an interested candidate. The will is there, but like so much else we're short on man power. We'd welcome patches to improve the ODF exporter in Gnumeric or abiword. I'd prefer to be spending my time coding to these endless discussions of ISO-tactics. I think I might have missed this, where is it? I can't seem to find it, but it's late here and my googling skills may be already too hampered... It == Gnumeric ODF support ? http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gnumeric/trunk/plugins/openoffice/ It == Joining OASIS ? It's been mentioned numerous times in various forums. Indeed when we first mentioned that I would be joining ECMA it was discussed that it would be good to get an OASIS membership too. If you (or anyone else) is interested talk to the board. That is all it takes. I'd love to do it, but the weekly meetings are too much of a commitment at this point. My day job is not paying me to take part in standards organizations or FLOSS. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
Hey, On 11/28/07, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, One question to candidates: Wil you promote the Foundation's participation on the reviewing of ODF? Why won't we?. It's on the interest of or community to promote free standards, free software and if we can help by reviewing it and helping to make it better and more bullet proof, then let's just do it! :). I'm sure it won't be for lack of a sponsor, but I think it is much more important to the Free Software world to have a true Open Standard for office documents, regardless of MS OOXML's outcome, and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF with GNOME based Free Software. The OOXML issue is already explained, someone volunteered for helping nuking MS's standard so we can get as much info as we can and make the problems of their stuff more evident. Jody's participation is -in my very humble opinion- anything but bad. He's probably made MS people throw one or two chairs through the window with his questions. I think Luis has replied you very clearly. No one's paying no one and Jody's participation is totally voluntary, if someone would stand up and want to help with ODF, I don't see a reason to oppose to the board helping them to participate. We all love free software as much as you, we wouldn't do anything to harm it. Greetings! Diego ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
