Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Reimar Grabowski]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2018 21:58:55 -0400
Ben Grasset  wrote:

> I'm not at all getting why people think it's "kitten-like." Have you guys
> ever actually seen a kitten?
Sure, they look like this: https://tinyurl.com/y9hod4gg

> And a much better/more tasteful cheetah than that
> ancient, annoying "running" GIF at the top of all the Free Pascal websites
> honestly.
Better does not mean good.
The point being is that tastes differ.

R.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Ben Grasset]

I'm not at all getting why people think it's "kitten-like." Have you guys
ever actually seen a kitten? This logo looks like a cheetah, as it's
presumably supposed to. And a much better/more tasteful cheetah than that
ancient, annoying "running" GIF at the top of all the Free Pascal websites
honestly.

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Reimar Grabowski  wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 09:53:19 +0700
> Mr Bee via fpc-pascal  wrote:
>
> > Lock-in strategy is just a term in business, but it never really locks
> > anybody into anything. You won't be punished if you don't use Swift on
> > Apple's platform or C# on Microsoft's platform. You're still free to use
> > anything on any platforms. But usually you'll get many benefits...
>
> The benefits being mostly that you don't have the disadvantages especially
> introduced for not using it?
>
> > Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't
> > need to represent the company/product literally.
> But it needs to represent.
>
> > A brand is like our name.
> No, it's not.
>
> R.
>
> P.S.: Cute logos s*ck
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Reimar Grabowski]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 09:53:19 +0700
Mr Bee via fpc-pascal  wrote:

> Lock-in strategy is just a term in business, but it never really locks
> anybody into anything. You won't be punished if you don't use Swift on
> Apple's platform or C# on Microsoft's platform. You're still free to use
> anything on any platforms. But usually you'll get many benefits...

The benefits being mostly that you don't have the disadvantages especially 
introduced for not using it?

> Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't
> need to represent the company/product literally.
But it needs to represent.

> A brand is like our name.
No, it's not.

R.

P.S.: Cute logos s*ck
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2018, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:


Yes. For me, this is the direction to go in.



But it's Lazarus logo. I think we should have a distinguished logo between
the compiler and the IDE.


I didn't say you need to copy it. I just think that it is minimalistic,
yet still recognizable, and that is what I think should be aimed for.


I was talking about the mascot, not the logo. And I think it's good to have
a cute mascot. Why everything has to be formal and serious? :)


I am not favouring "serious", but 'cute' does not do it for me.
See my remark about 'my little pony' people.



And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing

seriously.
On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand
"don't take it too literally".
That simply does not compute for me.



Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't
need to represent the company/product literally. A brand is like our name.


To begin with, I do not hold the point of view that branding is important.
So the rest of the discussion is purely academic.

However, if I must choose between a mascot that I dislike or the current gif
of a running cheetah, I will vote in favour of the latter option.

Michael.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Mr Bee via fpc-pascal]

2018-04-04 16:58 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

>
>> Do you mean this:
>> http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/File:Lazarus-icons-lpr-
>> proposal-bpsoftware.png
>> ?
>>
>
> Yes. For me, this is the direction to go in.


But it's Lazarus logo. I think we should have a distinguished logo between
the compiler and the IDE.

Eh, and the fact that you are almost forced to use it if you want to
> program for the Mac these days ?
> Just like Microsoft pushes everyone to C#.
>

Actually, nobody pushes anybody to use anything. As a first party solution,
of course it would be advertised as the best tool for the platform. Being
advertised doesn't mean it's pushed to everyone because in reality you can
use whatever tool you want as long it supports the platform.


> I think the innate properties of these programming languages have nothing
> to do with
> it. It's just a vendor lock-in strategy.


Lock-in strategy is just a term in business, but it never really locks
anybody into anything. You won't be punished if you don't use Swift on
Apple's platform or C# on Microsoft's platform. You're still free to use
anything on any platforms. But usually you'll get many benefits and
advantages if you use first party solution that sometimes can't be provided
by third party solutions. Some might see it as being locked, some others
might see it as a service.


> The question is: do you need 'cute' in order to attract young, capable,
> people?
> I doubt that.


I was talking about the mascot, not the logo. And I think it's good to have
a cute mascot. Why everything has to be formal and serious? :)

And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing
> seriously.
> On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand
> "don't take it too literally".
> That simply does not compute for me.


Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't
need to represent the company/product literally. A brand is like our name.
Everybody is known by the name, but the name doesn't necessarily represent
the image of the person literally. Mr White doesn't have to be a man in all
white color, for example. Yet everyone would still call him Mr White.
Everybody knows apple is a fruit, yet everybody knows a bitten Apple fruit
logo represents a company that produces computers and smartphones with no
apple fruits involved whatsoever.

-- 

Regards,


–Mr Bee
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[stdreamer]

On 04/04/2018 14:22 μμ, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


Hm. Clearly, that means not important at all for me:

I cannot recall ever having looked at the CE logo. In fact, until 30
seconds ago, I did not even know what it stands for.

Well it is, you are just not aware of it.
It presents it self in the most subtle ways eg you like a place because 
it is homey, which means it smells familiar or the lighting is familiar 
or colors are familiar . A logo is the same way it might become 
something to cherish or something to avoid but it will affect your 
primary selection long before you rich the point of evaluation.
the idea is to have something simple & familiar that will add you to the 
point of evaluation.



At least I've learned that then :)
Well, sorry I wasted your time, that might had some weight if it wasn't 
mandatory. As things are now its only a cost for the EU residents.



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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2018, stdreamer wrote:


On 04/04/2018 12:58 μμ, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing
seriously.

On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand
"don't take it too literally".

That simply does not compute for me.


let me try to make it clear.
1) branding is important in the same sense that a stab of approval is 
important or the CE logo is important in EU. It must be unique it must 
be easily recognizable.


Hm. Clearly, that means not important at all for me:

I cannot recall ever having looked at the CE logo. 
In fact, until 30 seconds ago, I did not even know what it stands for.


At least I've learned that then :)

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[stdreamer]

On 04/04/2018 12:58 μμ, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing
seriously.

On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand
"don't take it too literally".

That simply does not compute for me.


let me try to make it clear.
1) branding is important in the same sense that a stab of approval is 
important or the CE logo is important in EU. It must be unique it must 
be easily recognizable.
2) It is important that the logo deviates from the actual object it 
represents a lot otherwise it stops being unique and it becomes one more 
kitten in the internet, unless of course you have a couple of million to 
spend on advertising and building the company image in which case forget 
everything I said use a gray half eaten mouse and you are set.


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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2018, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:


2018-04-03 14:21 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :



I meant the icon it uses for the IDE.



Do you mean this:
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/File:Lazarus-icons-lpr-proposal-bpsoftware.png
?


Yes. For me, this is the direction to go in.


And here I will stop: as said, branding is not a subject I am particularly


fond of or interested in. I am more interested in the contents of the box

than in the packaging...



Well… if we want Pascal to be known again –as modern programming language,
not the old 70's Pascal– then branding is quite important. Especially to
young generation. See what Apple has been achiving with Swift within only 4
years. It goes from nothing to the top 10 of most known programming
languages of the world today, despite all of its flaws and immaturity. Sure
it's also helped by the power of Apple's brand (and marketting), it's still
a good achievement nevertheless.


Eh, and the fact that you are almost forced to use it if you want to program 
for the Mac these days ?


Just like Microsoft pushes everyone to C#.

I think the innate properties of these programming languages have nothing to do 
with
it. It's just a vendor lock-in strategy.


If we're looking for 'My little pony' kind of people, then we should
definitely aim for cute :)

But this is not exactly the kind of people I think we should attract.



Well, I'm exactly aiming at young people, the next generation of Pascal
developers. I've been seeing FPC's core devs team doesn't change much since
the first time I found FPC almost 20 years ago. I mean no offense, but I'm
not hoping to see this same team again for the next 20 years. I hope we're
starting to see new and younger people joining this great open source
project that we love. These young people is our hope to keep Pascal alive
in the future.


Absolutely.

The question is: do you need 'cute' in order to attract young, capable, people?

I doubt that.



A cheetah is not cute. It's a wild animal which will have no compunction

about slashing your throat or ripping your intestines out if you get it
cornered.



It's just a logo. It's a brand, not a 100% exact representation of the
product/company. Don't take it too literally. Python is also a wild and
dangerous animal, but Python language and the users are very far from that.
:)


And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing seriously.

On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand 
"don't take it too literally".


That simply does not compute for me.

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Mr Bee via fpc-pascal]

2018-04-03 14:21 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

>
> I meant the icon it uses for the IDE.


Do you mean this:
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/File:Lazarus-icons-lpr-proposal-bpsoftware.png
?


> A lot thinner :)
>

Let's see what I can do.


> And here I will stop: as said, branding is not a subject I am particularly
>
fond of or interested in. I am more interested in the contents of the box
> than in the packaging...


Well… if we want Pascal to be known again –as modern programming language,
not the old 70's Pascal– then branding is quite important. Especially to
young generation. See what Apple has been achiving with Swift within only 4
years. It goes from nothing to the top 10 of most known programming
languages of the world today, despite all of its flaws and immaturity. Sure
it's also helped by the power of Apple's brand (and marketting), it's still
a good achievement nevertheless.


> If we're looking for 'My little pony' kind of people, then we should
> definitely aim for cute :)
>
> But this is not exactly the kind of people I think we should attract.
>

Well, I'm exactly aiming at young people, the next generation of Pascal
developers. I've been seeing FPC's core devs team doesn't change much since
the first time I found FPC almost 20 years ago. I mean no offense, but I'm
not hoping to see this same team again for the next 20 years. I hope we're
starting to see new and younger people joining this great open source
project that we love. These young people is our hope to keep Pascal alive
in the future.

A cheetah is not cute. It's a wild animal which will have no compunction
> about slashing your throat or ripping your intestines out if you get it
> cornered.
>

It's just a logo. It's a brand, not a 100% exact representation of the
product/company. Don't take it too literally. Python is also a wild and
dangerous animal, but Python language and the users are very far from that.
:)

I get this often too, but now I show them pas2js.
>

I meant Pascal for server side web app, similar to Python or PHP or
whatever.

But unfortunately, I don't believe a flashy/cute/whatever logo will change
> this...


Of course, a new logo isn't a silver bullet. It won't make Pascal famous
overnight. This new logo surely wouldn't help much if we don't follow it
with promotions and good contents. But at least, we have a new, fresh,
attractive, and modern face to begin with. Hopefully this new face would
bring new spirit to the community to do more. I've read somewhere in the
list/forum, some people even suggested to change Pascal name to break the
relation and association to the old Pascal. Should we?

You know what, almost every time I talk about Pascal to young developers,
they think the old and stupid Brian Kernighan's article "Why Pascal is Not
My Favorite Programming Language" still applied. It's the reason why
RemObject use a new name for its Pascal-based compiler.

I am curious :)
>

Thank you, but I can't promise you anything yet. I'm doing this in my spare
time, mostly on the weekend. We're in no rush, just consider this as a mind
project.

I really do appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's not because I
> think differently about what the result should be that I don't appreciate
> the effort you put in this, so thank you for that !


You're welcome. I fully understand it. It's alright. In fact, we need your
opinion, also from other FPC core devs as well. We need to know what you
guys want with the logo in particular and the project in general. This new
logo proposal means nothing without core devs' approval. I'm just a happy
user and big supporter of FPC who haven't contribute anything useful to the
project.

-- 

Regards,


–Mr Bee
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Tue, 3 Apr 2018, Tomas Hajny wrote:


On Tue, April 3, 2018 09:21, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

.
.

But cheetah do have whiskers. Other people complained the old logo
weren't really look like a cheetah's face.


Which "old logo" is that ? As far as I know, the only logo FPC has is the
little running cheetah on the website.


If nothing else, there's the logo used for the IDE on the desktop on Win32
(/install/binw32/fp32.ico in the fpcbuild repository).


Hm. I doubt the term "logo" qualifies, but yes, presumably this is it :)


.

I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings
for a hobby.


The quality of your drawing shows it !


It isn't very clear which part of the previous sentence was referred to in
this response (I assume the latter and that it was thus meant as a
compliment rather than something else, of course).


It was definitely meant as a compliment.

I certainly would not be able to create such a professional-looking drawing 
or image. My graphical skills are non-existent...


Michael.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Tomas Hajny]

On Tue, April 3, 2018 09:21, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

 .
 .
>> But cheetah do have whiskers. Other people complained the old logo
>> weren't really look like a cheetah's face.
>
> Which "old logo" is that ? As far as I know, the only logo FPC has is the
> little running cheetah on the website.

If nothing else, there's the logo used for the IDE on the desktop on Win32
(/install/binw32/fp32.ico in the fpcbuild repository).


 .
 .
>> I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings
>> for a hobby.
>
> The quality of your drawing shows it !

It isn't very clear which part of the previous sentence was referred to in
this response (I assume the latter and that it was thus meant as a
compliment rather than something else, of course).

Tomas


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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

Please look at the lazarus logo/icon. It has no whiskers.



I opened lazarus.freepascal.org and I found it's using a paw as its logo.
Did I miss something? Sorry… I haven't been following Lazarus news for
quite a while, so I don't know the current logo.


I meant the icon it uses for the IDE.


It looks much more like a cheetah, not like a kitten.
So you can do something about it: remove the whiskers.



But cheetah do have whiskers. Other people complained the old logo weren't
really look like a cheetah's face.


Which "old logo" is that ? As far as I know, the only logo FPC has is the
little running cheetah on the website.


As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here:
http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png



Perhaps I should make the whiskers a bit less visible? Thinner perhaps?


A lot thinner :)

You may also want to experiment with the direction. Upwards, downwards -
horizontal. Drooping...


It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist.
(I even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)



I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings for
a hobby.


The quality of your drawing shows it !


If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then a logo should
represent the company/product group, whatever.
So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess,
self-confidence.



Modern logo doesn't necessarily have to represent the WHOLE values of a
company/product, because a company/product should be dynamic that
could/should change over time. So is the logo. Take a look at most modern
logo of big companies today, i.e. Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc. For
example, I can't see any of Apple's values (both the company and the
products) got represented on a bitten gray apple fruit. It looks dull, at
least to me. But the Apple brand image is so powerful and what people think
about Apple is far from dull. Or… what values can we see from a G shaped
with four bright colors of Google's logo? It looks like a letter toy. Or
Linux logo, Swift logo, Kotlin logo, etc.


True, but these logos are not animals.

And here I will stop: as said, branding is not a subject I am particularly
fond of or interested in. I am more interested in the contents of the box
than in the packaging...


Hardly things one associates with a kitten.




I don't think it looks like a kitten, especially the updated one. But of
course it looks like a cat, because cheetah is a cat.



FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open
source" did not exist. So maturity is important.



How do we put "maturity" onto a cheetah's face?


At the very least by not making it look like a kitten :)


Cheetah is known as the
fastest animal on land. That's what the most recognizable value of a
cheetah logo. And that's what people should think about (Free) Pascal: it's
FAST. By making the logo looks more modern, it also brings modernity value.
So, the new logo should represent something that's fast and modern. And
cheetah is also cute as a mascot. And cuteness is attracting young people.
:)


If we're looking for 'My little pony' kind of people, then we should
definitely aim for cute :)

But this is not exactly the kind of people I think we should attract.

A cheetah is not cute. It's a wild animal which will have no compunction
about slashing your throat or ripping your intestines out if you get it
cornered.

I don't see a kitten do this. Well, it may try, but will fail utterly... :)



Using marketing/branding talk:

Given that I think your version looks like a kitten, you will understand
that for the reasons explained above, I would not want to be "associated"
with the logo as you proposed it now.



I understand. But I'm not fully agree with you either. The main reason I'm
proposing new logo for Free Pascal –or even Pascal language in general– is
I want to bring Pascal to the young people. I want these kids know that
Pascal today is as modern, fast, and dynamic as other well-known
programming languages. I hate it when I told them I'm writing a software
using Pascal and they look at me like I'm a dinosaur. Some of them even
asking me, "how do you make a web app using Turbo Pascal?" :D


I get this often too, but now I show them pas2js.

But unfortunately, I don't believe a flashy/cute/whatever logo will change 
this...




In fact, I'm currently designing of another Pascal logo that's more
abstract, simpler, friendlier, and more colorful. It's still based on
cheetah's face though. I'll present it as second alternative, once I'm done
with it. :)


I am curious :)

And last but definitely not least:

I really do appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's not because I
think differently about what the result should be that I don't appreciate 
the effort you put in this, so thank you for that !


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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:


The proposed logo is updated.

What's new:
- it has eye balls.
- more rounded face.
- more rounded ears.
- more visible whiskers.

Cheetah is a member of cat big family. So, of course it will look like a
cat or kitten. Nothing I can do about it.


Please look at the lazarus logo/icon. It has no whiskers.
It looks much more like a cheetah, not like a kitten.
So you can do something about it: remove the whiskers.

As an exercise I have done the job for you. See attached picture. 
It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist.

(I even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)

If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then 
a logo should represent the company/product group, whatever.


So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess, 
self-confidence.


Hardly things one associates with a kitten.

FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word 
"open source" did not exist. So maturity is important.


Using marketing/branding talk:
Given that I think your version looks like a kitten, you will 
understand that for the reasons explained above, I would not 
want to be "associated" with the logo as you proposed it now.


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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2018-04-02 14:05, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:
> Perhaps I should make the whiskers a bit less visible? Thinner perhaps?

Exactly what I suggested. Overall, your logo 2nd logo looks "less"
kitten like than the first one. So it is heading in the right direction.

I think almost invisible whiskers is what you should be aiming for. I
think that will help.

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Mark Morgan Lloyd  schrieb am Mo., 2.
Apr. 2018, 15:13:

> On 02/04/18 09:45, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>
> > remove the whiskers.
> > As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here:
> > http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png
> > It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist.(I
> > even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)
> > If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then a logo
> > should represent the company/product group, whatever.
> > So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess,
> > self-confidence.
> > Hardly things one associates with a kitten.
> > FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open
> > source" did not exist. So maturity is important.
> > Using marketing/branding talk:Given that I think your version looks like
> > a kitten, you will understand that for the reasons explained above, I
> > would not want to be "associated" with the logo as you proposed it now.
>
> More to the point, why is a Cheetah logo being discussed in the context
> of Free Pascal?
>

Because the cheetah *is* FPC's logo. Why do you think we have that animated
cheetah on the FPC parts of the site, but not the Lazarus ones?

Regards,
Sven

>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Mark Morgan Lloyd]

On 02/04/18 09:45, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


remove the whiskers.
As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here:
http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png
It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist.(I 
even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)
If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then a logo 
should represent the company/product group, whatever.
So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess, 
self-confidence.

Hardly things one associates with a kitten.
FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open 
source" did not exist. So maturity is important.
Using marketing/branding talk:Given that I think your version looks like 
a kitten, you will understand that for the reasons explained above, I 
would not want to be "associated" with the logo as you proposed it now.


More to the point, why is a Cheetah logo being discussed in the context 
of Free Pascal?


If FPC is to have a logo it should be distinct from Lazarus since it's a 
separate project, although ideally they'd be complementary: an expanse 
of bushveldt with a couple of trees or similar (but please, no prey 
animals).


There's also the important question of whether an image selected as a 
logo can be scaled down to be used as an icon.


--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Mr Bee via fpc-pascal]

2018-04-02 16:36 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :


> Please look at the lazarus logo/icon. It has no whiskers.
>

I opened lazarus.freepascal.org and I found it's using a paw as its logo.
Did I miss something? Sorry… I haven't been following Lazarus news for
quite a while, so I don't know the current logo.


> It looks much more like a cheetah, not like a kitten.
> So you can do something about it: remove the whiskers.
>

But cheetah do have whiskers. Other people complained the old logo weren't
really look like a cheetah's face.


> As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here:
> http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png
>

Perhaps I should make the whiskers a bit less visible? Thinner perhaps?


> It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist.
> (I even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)
>

I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings for
a hobby.


> If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then a logo should
> represent the company/product group, whatever.
> So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess,
> self-confidence.
>

Modern logo doesn't necessarily have to represent the WHOLE values of a
company/product, because a company/product should be dynamic that
could/should change over time. So is the logo. Take a look at most modern
logo of big companies today, i.e. Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc. For
example, I can't see any of Apple's values (both the company and the
products) got represented on a bitten gray apple fruit. It looks dull, at
least to me. But the Apple brand image is so powerful and what people think
about Apple is far from dull. Or… what values can we see from a G shaped
with four bright colors of Google's logo? It looks like a letter toy. Or
Linux logo, Swift logo, Kotlin logo, etc.

Hardly things one associates with a kitten.
>

I don't think it looks like a kitten, especially the updated one. But of
course it looks like a cat, because cheetah is a cat.


> FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open
> source" did not exist. So maturity is important.
>

How do we put "maturity" onto a cheetah's face? Cheetah is known as the
fastest animal on land. That's what the most recognizable value of a
cheetah logo. And that's what people should think about (Free) Pascal: it's
FAST. By making the logo looks more modern, it also brings modernity value.
So, the new logo should represent something that's fast and modern. And
cheetah is also cute as a mascot. And cuteness is attracting young people.
:)

Using marketing/branding talk:
> Given that I think your version looks like a kitten, you will understand
> that for the reasons explained above, I would not want to be "associated"
> with the logo as you proposed it now.


I understand. But I'm not fully agree with you either. The main reason I'm
proposing new logo for Free Pascal –or even Pascal language in general– is
I want to bring Pascal to the young people. I want these kids know that
Pascal today is as modern, fast, and dynamic as other well-known
programming languages. I hate it when I told them I'm writing a software
using Pascal and they look at me like I'm a dinosaur. Some of them even
asking me, "how do you make a web app using Turbo Pascal?" :D

In fact, I'm currently designing of another Pascal logo that's more
abstract, simpler, friendlier, and more colorful. It's still based on
cheetah's face though. I'll present it as second alternative, once I'm done
with it. :)

-- 

Regards,


–Mr Bee
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Bart]

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 3:34 AM, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal
 wrote:

> The proposed logo is updated.

I think it's a nice logo.

Bart
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Mr Bee via fpc-pascal]

The proposed logo is updated.

What's new:
- it has eye balls.
- more rounded face.
- more rounded ears.
- more visible whiskers.

Cheetah is a member of cat big family. So, of course it will look like a
cat or kitten. Nothing I can do about it.

Are there more suggestions? Thank you.


2018-03-31 21:24 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

>
>
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2018, Vojtěch Čihák wrote:
>
> Hi,
>>
>> cheetahs have usually more rounded head and rounded ears. And whiskers
>> should be curved.
>> http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/cheetah-populations-keep
>> -falling-scientists-demand-better-protection#stream/0
>> Just my 50 cents.
>>
>
> And as you can see, the whiskers are barely visible, and not black...
>
> Michael.
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-- 

Regards,


–Mr Bee
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[James Richters]

>I have written a few small windows type apps, but still prefer console. More 
>of the programming is for function instead of display.

 

I also prefer ‘console’  but I prefer it for heavy graphical UI applications as 
well as functional types of programming.I cannot stand programs the try to 
conform to using generic windows UI elements when it is not appropriate to the 
application.   I design my own UI using ptcgraph in conjunction with aggpas and 
generate all the graphics myself… and this gives me an added bonus, I still 
have the console window as well, as the ptcgraph window so I can output my GUI 
to the ptcgraph window and generate some reports or logs and such to the 
console window.   My point to all the being, console programs are still very 
valid and have their uses.  I just wish there was effort was being put into 
further development of the text based IDE, which is what I use to compile and 
debug all my programs, but I use notepad++ for most of the my editing.

 

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Paul Nance]

I couldn't agree more.

I still program in (what everyone now calls console) pascal. While working
on a large project, will even go into virtual machine to use the Borland
Pascal 7 IDE, which works a little better than the FPC IDE.

Of course, having started pascal with Borland's Pascal for CPM almost 40
years ago, one might call me an luddite of a fashion.

I have written a few small windows type apps, but still prefer console.
More of the programming is for function instead of display.

On Sun, Apr 1, 2018, 3:29 AM Alexander Grotewohl  wrote:

> I can't help but feel like they'd still just download regular fpc and use
> it at the console with the help of a minimal syntax highlighting editor.
> Don't get me wrong, that's exactly how I like to use fpc, but I already
> know lazarus is awesome for all the bells and whistles.
>
> The problem with the types of classes that use pascal for teaching is the
> same as the ones that use BASIC: They just want to teach you looping and
> using variables and stuff. The absolute basics. In these instances it
> doesn't matter how cool the language is if you're not an experienced enough
> programmer to use it. Perhaps a decent target would be a database course,
> where Lazarus has a better chance to shine, and the users actually have a
> chance to see what's in the RTL/LCL/etc.
> As an aside, I don't think the pascal community is that small, it's just
> spread out. There are a lot of other implementations people cling to
> (myself included).
>
> Alex
>
> On 3/31/2018 7:57 AM, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:
>
>
> 2018-03-30 16:19 GMT+07:00 Ingemar Ragnemalm :
>
>>
>> The logo is very good, and well connected to the tradtion set by the
>> animated gif. The alternative would be to use a frame of the animation, or
>> similar sideways cheetah, but scaled up so it can have different
>> resolutions. But the head is more compact, which speaks in its favor.
>>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>> I am not sure how bit the *need* is but it doesn't hurt to have an
>> official still image logo.
>
>
> If we want the young generation to know Pascal with a new paradigm, a
> modern programming language paradigm, I think this branding effort is quite
> important. There are so many people still think that Pascal today is still
> the old 70's Pascal. I even found many universities, at least in my
> country, that still teach Pascal using Turbo Pascal. When I introduced them
> to new and modern Pascal, the FPC/Lazarus (or Delphi), they were amazed at
> how modern Pascal is!
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
>
> –Mr Bee
>
>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Alexander Grotewohl]

I can't help but feel like they'd still just download regular fpc and 
use it at the console with the help of a minimal syntax highlighting 
editor. Don't get me wrong, that's exactly how I like to use fpc, but I 
already know lazarus is awesome for all the bells and whistles.


The problem with the types of classes that use pascal for teaching is 
the same as the ones that use BASIC: They just want to teach you looping 
and using variables and stuff. The absolute basics. In these instances 
it doesn't matter how cool the language is if you're not an experienced 
enough programmer to use it. Perhaps a decent target would be a database 
course, where Lazarus has a better chance to shine, and the users 
actually have a chance to see what's in the RTL/LCL/etc.


As an aside, I don't think the pascal community is that small, it's just 
spread out. There are a lot of other implementations people cling to 
(myself included).


Alex

On 3/31/2018 7:57 AM, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:


2018-03-30 16:19 GMT+07:00 Ingemar Ragnemalm >:



The logo is very good, and well connected to the tradtion set by
the animated gif. The alternative would be to use a frame of the
animation, or similar sideways cheetah, but scaled up so it can
have different resolutions. But the head is more compact, which
speaks in its favor.


Thank you.

I am not sure how bit the *need* is but it doesn't hurt to have an
official still image logo.


If we want the young generation to know Pascal with a new paradigm, a 
modern programming language paradigm, I think this branding effort is 
quite important. There are so many people still think that Pascal 
today is still the old 70's Pascal. I even found many universities, at 
least in my country, that still teach Pascal using Turbo Pascal. When 
I introduced them to new and modern Pascal, the FPC/Lazarus (or 
Delphi), they were amazed at how modern Pascal is!


--

Regards,


–Mr Bee


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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2018-03-31 14:48, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> IMHO It makes the cheetah look more like a kitten.

That was my first thought too - the logo looks too kitten like.

Else maybe try and make the wiskers about a 1/3 of the line width to see
if that reduces the "kitten" look.


Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018, Vojtěch Čihák wrote:


Hi,
 
cheetahs have usually more rounded head and rounded ears. And whiskers should 
be curved.

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/cheetah-populations-keep-falling-scientists-demand-better-protection#stream/0
Just my 50 cents.


And as you can see, the whiskers are barely visible, and not black...

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Vojtěch Čihák]

Hi,
 
cheetahs have usually more rounded head and rounded ears. And whiskers should 
be curved.
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/cheetah-populations-keep-falling-scientists-demand-better-protection#stream/0
Just my 50 cents.
 
V.
 
__

Od: Mr Bee via fpc-pascal 
Komu: FPC-Pascal Users Discussions 
Datum: 30.03.2018 05:52
Předmět: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo


Hi,These days, most modern programming languages have its own logo. The logo becomes a "brand", a unique 
visual identity for the language. It also acts as a "trademark", a recognizable image for the language. 
It also helps the community to have a single visual identity to distinguish them from other programming 
communities. I've seen it with many other communities, such as Swift, Python, Kotlin, etc.Unfortunately, I don't 
see Pascal language –especially Free Pascal– to have a such logo. Yes, I know the FPC's official site got a running 
cheetah (a .gif file) named as logo. But, I don't think an animated picture is appropriate to be used as a logo. A 
logo should be simple, unique, recognizable and "iconizable" image.So, I propose a new logo for Free 
Pascal. It's a simple cheetah's head. The proposed logo in various sizes (for icon) can be looked at here: 
https://pak.lebah.web.id/fpc/  I also attach the logo as a .png file, in case 
someone ca
n't open my website.If this proposal is accepted, perhaps it's time to rework 
the official FPC's website, using the new logo. It's time to make Pascal looks 
more modern, because it looks pretty old today. I also think the Lazarus' logo 
can be made better, but that's another discussion for another time.What do you 
think?Thank you.Regards,–Mr Bee

--

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:


2018-03-30 15:21 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :



I would get rid of the whiskers.



What's wrong with the whiskers? 


IMHO It makes the cheetah look more like a kitten.

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Mr Bee via fpc-pascal]

2018-03-30 16:19 GMT+07:00 Ingemar Ragnemalm :

>
> The logo is very good, and well connected to the tradtion set by the
> animated gif. The alternative would be to use a frame of the animation, or
> similar sideways cheetah, but scaled up so it can have different
> resolutions. But the head is more compact, which speaks in its favor.
>

Thank you.


> I am not sure how bit the *need* is but it doesn't hurt to have an
> official still image logo.


If we want the young generation to know Pascal with a new paradigm, a
modern programming language paradigm, I think this branding effort is quite
important. There are so many people still think that Pascal today is still
the old 70's Pascal. I even found many universities, at least in my
country, that still teach Pascal using Turbo Pascal. When I introduced them
to new and modern Pascal, the FPC/Lazarus (or Delphi), they were amazed at
how modern Pascal is!

-- 

Regards,


–Mr Bee
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Mr Bee via fpc-pascal]

2018-03-30 15:21 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

>
> I would get rid of the whiskers.
>
>
What's wrong with the whiskers? 

-- 

Regards,


–Mr Bee
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Ched]

My preference goes to the profile (on the animation) than on the tatoo-like 
face of the cheeta.

Ched'
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Ingemar Ragnemalm]

Den 2018-03-30 kl. 05:54, Mr Bee wrote:

Hi,
These days, most modern programming languages have its own logo. The logo becomes a 
"brand", a unique visual identity for the language. It also acts as a 
"trademark", a recognizable image for the language. It also helps the community to have a 
single visual identity to distinguish them from other programming communities. I've seen it with 
many other communities, such as Swift, Python, Kotlin, etc.
Unfortunately, I don't see Pascal language –especially Free Pascal– to have a such logo. 
Yes, I know the FPC's official site got a running cheetah (a .gif file) named as logo. 
But, I don't think an animated picture is appropriate to be used as a logo. A logo should 
be simple, unique, recognizable and "iconizable" image.
So, I propose a new logo for Free Pascal. It's a simple cheetah's head. The 
proposed logo in various sizes (for icon) can be looked at here: 
https://pak.lebah.web.id/fpc/ I also attach the logo as a .png file, in case 
someone can't open my website.
If this proposal is accepted, perhaps it's time to rework the official FPC's 
website, using the new logo. It's time to make Pascal looks more modern, 
because it looks pretty old today. I also think the Lazarus' logo can be made 
better, but that's another discussion for another time.
What do you think?


The logo is very good, and well connected to the tradtion set by the 
animated gif. The alternative would be to use a frame of the animation, 
or similar sideways cheetah, but scaled up so it can have different 
resolutions. But the head is more compact, which speaks in its favor.


I am not sure how bit the *need* is but it doesn't hurt to have an 
official still image logo.


/Ingemar

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Maciej Izak]

We have also updated classical logo :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/136Ft-sZsnm6uJPmBXeDIeCUW-u0GJ8qS/view?usp=sharing

svg version:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y1IsWgvPx9S89XD_ZTzg12gz0Va-_nNS/view?usp=sharing

2018-03-30 10:09 GMT+02:00 Florian Klämpfl :

> > What do you think?
>
> I like the idea, I would only prefer if the cheetah looks a little bit
> more friendly :) Mainly by
> more almond shaped like eyes and visible iris and pupil, I'll send you a
> roughly modified version of
> your logo which shows the idea in private.
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-- 
Best regards,
Maciej Izak
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018, Florian Klämpfl wrote:


Am 30.03.2018 um 05:52 schrieb Mr Bee via fpc-pascal:

Hi,

These days, most modern programming languages have its own logo. The logo becomes a 
"brand", a
unique visual identity for the language. It also acts as a "trademark", a 
recognizable image for the
language. It also helps the community to have a single visual identity to 
distinguish them from
other programming communities. I've seen it with many other communities, such 
as Swift, Python,
Kotlin, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't see Pascal language –especially Free Pascal– to have a 
such logo. Yes, I know
the FPC's official site got a running cheetah (a .gif file) named as logo. But, 
I don't think an
animated picture is appropriate to be used as a logo. A logo should be simple, 
unique, recognizable
and "iconizable" image.

So, I propose a new logo for Free Pascal. It's a simple cheetah's head. The 
proposed logo in various
sizes (for icon) can be looked at here: https://pak.lebah.web.id/fpc/ I also 
attach the logo as a
.png file, in case someone can't open my website.

What do you think?


I like the idea, I would only prefer if the cheetah looks a little bit more 
friendly :) Mainly by
more almond shaped like eyes and visible iris and pupil, I'll send you a 
roughly modified version of
your logo which shows the idea in private.


I would get rid of the whiskers.

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

[Florian Klämpfl]

Am 30.03.2018 um 05:52 schrieb Mr Bee via fpc-pascal:
> Hi,
> 
> These days, most modern programming languages have its own logo. The logo 
> becomes a "brand", a
> unique visual identity for the language. It also acts as a "trademark", a 
> recognizable image for the
> language. It also helps the community to have a single visual identity to 
> distinguish them from
> other programming communities. I've seen it with many other communities, such 
> as Swift, Python,
> Kotlin, etc.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't see Pascal language –especially Free Pascal– to have a 
> such logo. Yes, I know
> the FPC's official site got a running cheetah (a .gif file) named as logo. 
> But, I don't think an
> animated picture is appropriate to be used as a logo. A logo should be 
> simple, unique, recognizable
> and "iconizable" image.
> 
> So, I propose a new logo for Free Pascal. It's a simple cheetah's head. The 
> proposed logo in various
> sizes (for icon) can be looked at here: https://pak.lebah.web.id/fpc/ I also 
> attach the logo as a
> .png file, in case someone can't open my website.
> 
> What do you think?

I like the idea, I would only prefer if the cheetah looks a little bit more 
friendly :) Mainly by
more almond shaped like eyes and visible iris and pupil, I'll send you a 
roughly modified version of
your logo which shows the idea in private.
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