subject:"\[Framers\] OT\: Copyright rules for scripts"

Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-24 Thread Robert Lauriston

Yes, at a commercial software company, GPL = do not use.

I update the third-party license disclosures for my company's product,
and once in a while have to tell developers they need to take
something out. I have a number of topics in my docs that tell
customers how to install things we can't bundle with the product, such
as Oracle JDBC drivers.

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Syed Zaeem Hosain
 wrote:
> Sidebar: GPL is particularly disconcerting. Since using GPL open source is 
> like an infection - new code built using stuff that is licensed via GPL also 
> acquires GPL characteristics and becomes open. So, most companies (including 
> mine) have Open Source Policy documents that describe exactly what open 
> source licensed code their software designers can use inside their own 
> material.
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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-24 Thread Syed Zaeem Hosain

Hi, all

Adding a copyright to source code or scripts (i.e., to any original work) does 
not _actually_ prevent people from selling or copying that work or using it for 
other purposes. 

What a copyright does is establish ownership rights in that piece of work. 
These ownership rights can then be used (if the need arises) to litigate, sue 
and attempt to collect compensation.

The problem in most cases is that, unless the resources of the owner are large 
enough, the detection of a violation of those ownership rights is difficult, 
and litigation incredibly expensive and long.

And, unless the copying and distribution is obvious (easier to establish in 
some works - like code or books), the act of litigating usually does not 
succeed too well. Hence copyright violation lawsuits are rare. 

Thus, any control of work is best done by explicit licenses - that either 
provide the work for a fee/cost, or are declared free (such as the licenses 
from Apache, MIT and the GPL in the case of open source, for example).

Even this does not guarantee violations, but, at least, it sets the rules under 
which the work has been made available and is an easier way to get lawyers to 
handle litigation. Particularly if there is a sufficiently large monetary 
reason to do so.

Sidebar: GPL is particularly disconcerting. Since using GPL open source is like 
an infection - new code built using stuff that is licensed via GPL also 
acquires GPL characteristics and becomes open. So, most companies (including 
mine) have Open Source Policy documents that describe exactly what open source 
licensed code their software designers can use inside their own material.

Z

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers [mailto:framers-
> bounces+syed.hosain=aeris@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Klaus
> Daube
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 01:37 AM
> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts
> 
> Friends,
> 
> I have now asked the author of the purchased script. Here is his answer:
> <
> The reason I copyright my scripts is so that people don't resell them as is 
> or give copies to others. However, you are free to modify the code and use it 
> in your own scripts as you have done. Yours is different enough that I would
> not consider it an infringement on the copyright. You are welcome to do what 
> you want with this particular script. I compile some of my commercial scripts 
> in order to protect the code. For custom scripts like yours, I expect 
> that some users will use parts of the code in their own scripts. Please let 
> me know if you have any questions or comments.
> Thank you very much for being concerned enough about it to ask me about
> it.
> >
> 
> This disencumbers me and reflects my thoughts about the issue:
> - Sharing ideas is not the same as commercialising them.
> - Referencing the source of building blocks (in the manner of citations)
>   or the base of a script not only 'honours' the author but also allows
>   the later user to get additional information.
> - Significant changes and new ideas minimise the potential of infringement.
> - Any intellectual work is based on other peoples work - There is no progress 
> if "intellectual property" is put in the vault and no one else can make use 
> of it.
>   However, this work must be remunerated according to it's use (license, ...)
> - The "all rights reserved" clause at least lets one think about the issue.
> 
> I particularly thank for the remarks from Scott Prentice and the link he 
> provided.
> Klaus Daube
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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-24 Thread Klaus Daube

Friends,

I have now asked the author of the purchased script. Here is his answer:
«
The reason I copyright my scripts is so that people don't resell them as is or 
give 
copies to others. However, you are free to modify the code and use it in your 
own 
scripts as you have done. Yours is different enough that I would not consider 
it an 
infringement on the copyright. You are welcome to do what you want with this 
particular script. I compile some of my commercial scripts in order to protect 
the 
code. For custom scripts like yours, I expect that some users will use parts of 
the 
code in their own scripts. Please let me know if you have any questions or 
comments. 
Thank you very much for being concerned enough about it to ask me about it.
»

This disencumbers me and reflects my thoughts about the issue:
- Sharing ideas is not the same as commercialising them.
- Referencing the source of building blocks (in the manner of citations)
  or the base of a script not only 'honours' the author but also allows 
  the later user to get additional information.
- Significant changes and new ideas minimise the potential of infringement.
- Any intellectual work is based on other peoples work - There is no progress 
if 
  "intellectual property" is put in the vault and no one else can make use of 
it.
  However, this work must be remunerated according to it's use (license, ...)
- The "all rights reserved" clause at least lets one think about the issue.

I particularly thank for the remarks from Scott Prentice and the link he 
provided. 
Klaus Daube
~~
Docu + Design Daube; Schäracher 11; CH-8053 Zürich
Technical documentation & consultancy; On-line and paper
F: +41-44-422 86 25  E: d...@daube.ch  W: www.daube.ch

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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-23 Thread Rick Quatro

I answered Klaus offlist, but I usually add a copyright notice to my scripts
to discourage someone from reselling them as is or posting them for free.
However, I fully expect that someone may want to reuse parts of the script
in their own scripts and that is completely acceptable. Some clients
purchase custom scripts to give them a head start on learning to write their
own. I know that some people feel that software should be "free" but since
writing scripts is how I make my living, I add a copyright to give me a
little protection. In practice, it has rarely been a problem since most of
them are custom and applicable to very specific workflows. For non-custom,
general-purpose scripts, I will generally compile them to protect the
source-code.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-366-4017
r...@frameexpert.com




-Original Message-
From: Framers
[mailto:framers-bounces+rick=rickquatro@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf
Of Craig Ede
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 6:50 PM
To: framers
Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

If you purchased the script and it has a copyright notice in it, it is
reasonable to assume that the writer of the script expects to be compensated
for the script. I would not use it inside your own script unless you work
out a way to compensate the original script writer as well. (And you can
assume they don't want it given away free, but you could ask.)

However, copyright covers the expression of an idea, not the idea. So you
can freely use the concepts of a script to accomplish the same task.

That is a slippery concept. You can't simply change the variable names to
"reexpress" the script. At the same time, you can do the same things, just a
bit differently and in a different order and be safe, I think, since there
are only so many ways to code a loop, etc.

This is why script writers sometimes "compile" their scripts into some other
non-text form so that you can't see what concepts they have used. The ones
that leave this transparent are being generous, but not to the point of
wanting you to steal their particular code.

Good luck,

Craig
Copyright rules for scripts are the same as other copyrights. Nothing
special for scripts.


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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-23 Thread Craig Ede

If you purchased the script and it has a copyright notice in it, it is 
reasonable to assume that the writer of the script expects to be compensated 
for the script. I would not use it inside your own script unless you work out a 
way to compensate the original script writer as well. (And you can assume they 
don't want it given away free, but you could ask.)

However, copyright covers the expression of an idea, not the idea. So you can 
freely use the concepts of a script to accomplish the same task.

That is a slippery concept. You can't simply change the variable names to 
"reexpress" the script. At the same time, you can do the same things, just a 
bit differently and in a different order and be safe, I think, since there are 
only so many ways to code a loop, etc.

This is why script writers sometimes "compile" their scripts into some other 
non-text form so that you can't see what concepts they have used. The ones that 
leave this transparent are being generous, but not to the point of wanting you 
to steal their particular code.

Good luck,

Craig
Copyright rules for scripts are the same as other copyrights. Nothing special 
for scripts.

From: Framers <framers-bounces+craigede=hotmail@lists.frameusers.com> on 
behalf of Klaus Daube <fr...@daube.ch>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 11:53 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

   Dear Framers!

   3 years ago I ordered and got an ExtendScript according to my
   specifications for which I paid quite an amount. The author placed a
   note in the script:

   // Copyright 2013, Author.Company.Com. All rights reserved.

   May I (as purchaser of a specific work) use this work as a base for own
   work which I then offer to the public on my website?

   With all this plagiarism discussion in the back of my neck: When using
   other people's work (which normally does not contain any copyright
   notice) I have started to include a note such as:

   Based on xxx.jsx (http://...).

   fo example:

   function FindAndReplaceString (activeDoc, findString, replaceString,
   loopMax)

   // Source: Russ Ward in
   https://forums.adobe.com/message/3888653#3888653

   I have seen © notices in script souce such as the following - which is
   clear to allow what I intend to do:

   // © 2010 Matt Di Pasquale

   //

   // Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person
   obtaining a copy

   // of this software and associated documentation files (the
   "Software"), to deal

   // in the Software without restriction, including without limitation
   the rights

   // to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or
   sell

   // copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software
   is

   // furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

   //

   // The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be
   included in

   // all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

   But such long statements are rare. The script example is 90 lines, of
   which the complete © notice is 20 lines.

   We all build our work with the help from others - or we need to close
   all forums. IMHO it is fair use to state the source of the bricks which
   I use to build a new script. But does this violate the claims of the
   author mentioned on top?

   ~~~
   ~~

   Docu + Design Daube; Schäracher 11; CH-8053 Zürich

   Technical documentation & consultancy; On-line and paper

   F: +41-44-422 86 25  E: d...@daube.ch  W: www.daube.ch
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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-23 Thread Scott Prentice

This is a tricky subject. Definitely not clear cut, especially when it 
comes to non-compiled programming languages. Here's a good summary ..


https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/06/understanding-copyright-and-licenses/

This still doesn't really answer your question about creating a 
derivative work from this "copyrighted" work. The "best" thing to do is 
to contact the author and ask permission for what you plan to do. But if 
that's not possible (or you just don't want to), you have to ask 
yourself .. at what point do your modifications to this work constitute, 
a new work that's yours?


You certainly can't just re-sell something as-is .. that's clearly 
"wrong." But you *could* rename the variables, move things around a bit 
and by the time you add your new code, it'd look like something 
completely different. Is that wrong? It's hard to say. I think it really 
depends on your intent.


As a developer myself, I generally expect that people will take my 
non-compiled code and do pretty much anything with it, regardless of the 
copyright statements. That's one reason that I prefer to work with 
compiled code for more serious development tasks. I'll use ExtendScript 
for "light" scripting tasks, but would not likely use it for larger 
projects.


If it were me, in this case, I'd contact the author and ask permission 
to use his code intact and complete, and include credit to the original 
author and clearly identify their code and yours.


If they didn't allow this, I'd rewrite that code, making it 
significantly different and better (there's always room for 
improvement). Keep in mind that you really need to make it different .. 
perhaps using similar functions from open source libraries. In coding, 
there's very little that's actually new, it's all just variations on the 
same old theme. You can typically find other sources for code that's not 
sharable, and that's better than blatant plagiarism.


Cheers!
...scott


On 5/23/16 9:53 AM, Klaus Daube wrote:

Dear Framers!

3 years ago I ordered and got an ExtendScript according to my
specifications for which I paid quite an amount. The author placed a
note in the script:

// Copyright 2013, Author.Company.Com. All rights reserved.

May I (as purchaser of a specific work) use this work as a base for own
work which I then offer to the public on my website?

With all this plagiarism discussion in the back of my neck: When using
other people's work (which normally does not contain any copyright
notice) I have started to include a note such as:

Based on xxx.jsx (http://...).

fo example:

function FindAndReplaceString (activeDoc, findString, replaceString,
loopMax)

// Source: Russ Ward in
https://forums.adobe.com/message/3888653#3888653

I have seen © notices in script souce such as the following - which is
clear to allow what I intend to do:

// © 2010 Matt Di Pasquale

//

// Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person
obtaining a copy

// of this software and associated documentation files (the
"Software"), to deal

// in the Software without restriction, including without limitation
the rights

// to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or
sell

// copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software
is

// furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

//

// The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be
included in

// all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

But such long statements are rare. The script example is 90 lines, of
which the complete © notice is 20 lines.

We all build our work with the help from others - or we need to close
all forums. IMHO it is fair use to state the source of the bricks which
I use to build a new script. But does this violate the claims of the
author mentioned on top?

~~~
~~

Docu + Design Daube; Schäracher 11; CH-8053 Zürich

Technical documentation & consultancy; On-line and paper

F: +41-44-422 86 25  E: d...@daube.ch  W: www.daube.ch
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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-23 Thread Robert Lauriston

If the contract specified that it was work for hire and you would own
the copyright, then you could ignore the notice.

Otherwise, you would need to get permission from the copyright holder
to sell or distribute the code.

The other notice is a typical open-source license. It's the copyright
holder's choice to give it away free with the listed restrictions.
It's not your choice.

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Klaus Daube  wrote:
>3 years ago I ordered and got an ExtendScript according to my
>specifications for which I paid quite an amount. The author placed a
>note in the script:
>
>// Copyright 2013, Author.Company.Com. All rights reserved.
>
>May I (as purchaser of a specific work) use this work as a base for own
>work which I then offer to the public on my website?
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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-23 Thread Heiko Haida

 

Hi Klaus, 

I would say that a copyright should be interpreted strictly, in the way
that nothing is allowed except it was explicitly mentioned otherwise.
In your case, you are not be allowed to use the script or a substantial
part of it as if it were your own, unless the author gives you the
permission (--> "All rights reserved."). 

If the author gives you the permission, he/she may ask for an
appropriate fee.
This seems to be fair. 

Best regards -- Tino H. Haida, Berlin 

Klaus Daube: 

> Dear Framers!
> 
> 3 years ago I ordered and got an ExtendScript according to my
> specifications for which I paid quite an amount. The author placed a
> note in the script:
> 
> // Copyright 2013, Author.Company.Com. All rights reserved.
> 
> May I (as purchaser of a specific work) use this work as a base for own
> work which I then offer to the public on my website?
> 
> With all this plagiarism discussion in the back of my neck: When using
> other people's work (which normally does not contain any copyright
> notice) I have started to include a note such as:
> 
> Based on xxx.jsx (http://...).
> 
> fo example:
> 
> function FindAndReplaceString (activeDoc, findString, replaceString,
> loopMax)
> 
> // Source: Russ Ward in
> https://forums.adobe.com/message/3888653#3888653
> 
> I have seen (c) notices in script souce such as the following - which is
> clear to allow what I intend to do:
> 
> // (c) 2010 Matt Di Pasquale
> 
> //
> 
> // Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person
> obtaining a copy
> 
> // of this software and associated documentation files (the
> "Software"), to deal
> 
> // in the Software without restriction, including without limitation
> the rights
> 
> // to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or
> sell
> 
> // copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software
> is
> 
> // furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:
> 
> //
> 
> // The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be
> included in
> 
> // all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
> 
> But such long statements are rare. The script example is 90 lines, of
> which the complete (c) notice is 20 lines.
> 
> We all build our work with the help from others - or we need to close
> all forums. IMHO it is fair use to state the source of the bricks which
> I use to build a new script. But does this violate the claims of the
> author mentioned on top?
> 
> ~~~
> ~~
> 
> Docu + Design Daube; Schäracher 11; CH-8053 Zürich
> 
> Technical documentation & consultancy; On-line and paper
> 
> F: +41-44-422 86 25  E: d...@daube.ch  W: www.daube.ch [1]
> ___
 

Links:
--
[1] http://www.daube.ch
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[Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

2016-05-23 Thread Klaus Daube

   Dear Framers!

   3 years ago I ordered and got an ExtendScript according to my
   specifications for which I paid quite an amount. The author placed a
   note in the script:

   // Copyright 2013, Author.Company.Com. All rights reserved.

   May I (as purchaser of a specific work) use this work as a base for own
   work which I then offer to the public on my website?

   With all this plagiarism discussion in the back of my neck: When using
   other people's work (which normally does not contain any copyright
   notice) I have started to include a note such as:

   Based on xxx.jsx (http://...).

   fo example:

   function FindAndReplaceString (activeDoc, findString, replaceString,
   loopMax)

   // Source: Russ Ward in
   https://forums.adobe.com/message/3888653#3888653

   I have seen © notices in script souce such as the following - which is
   clear to allow what I intend to do:

   // © 2010 Matt Di Pasquale

   //

   // Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person
   obtaining a copy

   // of this software and associated documentation files (the
   "Software"), to deal

   // in the Software without restriction, including without limitation
   the rights

   // to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or
   sell

   // copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software
   is

   // furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

   //

   // The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be
   included in

   // all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

   But such long statements are rare. The script example is 90 lines, of
   which the complete © notice is 20 lines.

   We all build our work with the help from others - or we need to close
   all forums. IMHO it is fair use to state the source of the bricks which
   I use to build a new script. But does this violate the claims of the
   author mentioned on top?

   ~~~
   ~~

   Docu + Design Daube; Schäracher 11; CH-8053 Zürich

   Technical documentation & consultancy; On-line and paper

   F: +41-44-422 86 25  E: d...@daube.ch  W: www.daube.ch
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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

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Re: [Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

[Framers] OT: Copyright rules for scripts

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