Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Peter Gold]

Is it possible that this is the result of either an honest typesetting or
composing error, or an intentional strategy to avoid breaking footnote
matter across pages? Does the client have a preference?

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 4:16 PM  wrote:
OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned
veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am working
on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the
existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current,
etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a
reference such as:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of
moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second
reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
cite an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded
reference was standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then
the new reference was all that was cited, for example:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based pharmacokinetic
modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second
reference and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the
content was standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the
second reference where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I
am thinking of the Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out," and
they don't know that we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)



I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle this
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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

Jeff and Dan,

 

I totally agree w/ both of you. The closest that I have ever seen to this is
a citation w/in a citation such as: 

 

In-text reference: 

 

(Original author last name, Year of original work, as cited in Author last
name of work where quote found, Year)

Miller (1953, as cited in Agrios, 2005) found .

. as was found (Miller, 1953, as cited in Agrios, 2005).

 

Reference list (only the citing article defined):

 

Agrios, G.N. (2005). Plant pathology (5th ed.). Elsevier Academic Press.

 

I just have to tread carefully on this about which battles to pick . . .
trying to get standardization on variables alone has been tricky such as
only a little f or a big F for fraction . . . and if I rip out the embedded
reference and reference only the citing article, (just as you indicated
Jeff, and that is exactly what I am doing now), I just wanted some type of
back up. My SMEs are very territorial about the their content in this, and
as much as I want to make this guide correct in every way (technically
accurate, grammar, syntax, etc.) I have to work hard to avoid "but we've
always done it this way, so leave it alone" push back. Sigh. . . .

 

Tammy Van Boening

Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com

www.spectrumwritingllc.com

 

> -Original Message-

> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On

> Behalf Of Harding, Dan

> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 7:07 AM

> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

> 

> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

> 

> But why even reference the original article? Doesn't the
revised/republished

> article supplant the former entirely, so just cite it? I've not seen this
type of

> recursive citing before. Seems extraneous to me.

> 

> -Dan

> 

> 

> 

> -Original Message-

> From: Framers <
<mailto:framers-bounces+dharding=illinois@lists.frameusers.com> framers-

 <mailto:framers-bounces+dharding=illinois@lists.frameusers.com> >
bounces+dharding=illinois@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Jeff

> Coatsworth

> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 6:42 AM

> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

> < <mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> framers@lists.frameusers.com>

> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

> 

> I've never seen an embedded reference in all my years in university. I
would

> have thought that the second one would have just quoted the title of the

> first one - e.g.

> 

> 

> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M.
2005.

> Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue

> distribution of moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.

> 

> 

> and ditched the first location - IMHO, that's not part of the title of the
second

> article.

> 

> 

> 

> From: Framers <
<mailto:framers-bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com>
framers-

 <mailto:framers-bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com>
> bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com> on behalf

> of  <mailto:tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com> tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
< <mailto:tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com> tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com>

> Sent: September 28, 2021 5:16 PM

> To:  <mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> framers@lists.frameusers.com

> Subject: [Framers] OT: Reference question

> 

> OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned

> veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am
working

> on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the

> existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate,
current,

> etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a

> reference such as:

> 

> 

> 

> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
pharmacokinetic

> modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong
bases." J

> Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.

> 

> 

> 

> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M.
2005.

> Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue

> distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J
Pharm

> Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.

> 

> 

> 

> You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second

> reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
cite

> an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded

> reference was standalone in a new refer

Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

I have my message format set to HTML and I have the option of append each
line in the original message with a carrot (>) and I see that works for
other folks' messages. . . not sure what else I could different besides just
remove the original message. . . but then I have had folks complain that
they lose track of the message thread that way. I am open to any thoughts.
Using Outlook 2016. Tammy Van Boening Principal/Owner Spectrum Writing, LLC
www.spectrumwritingllc.com 303-840-1755 > Scanned by McAfee and confirmed
virus-free. Find out more here: https://bit.ly/2zCJMrO


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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

Better? Tammy Van Boening Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com > -Original Message- > From: Framers
bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On > Behalf Of
Craig Ede > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 9:14 AM > To: An email list
for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. > > Subject: Re: [Framers] OT:
Reference question > > Tammy, > > Is there some way you can turn off the
appending the earlier messages > when you reply. I expect you are probably
replying from a phone and it just > produces a long string where everything
is mashed up together making it > difficult to read your brief responses. >
> Thanks > > Craig > >  > Scanned by McAfee
and confirmed virus-free. Find out more here: https://bit.ly/2zCJMrO


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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Craig Ede]

Tammy,

Is there some way you can turn off the appending the earlier messages when you 
reply. I expect you are probably replying from a phone and it just produces a 
long string where everything is mashed up together making it difficult to read 
your brief responses.

Thanks

Craig


From: Framers  on 
behalf of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com 
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 4:29 PM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

LOL! How I wish. Tammy Van Boening Tammy dot vanboening at
spectrumwritingllc dot com 
www.spectrumwritingllc.com<http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com> -Original
Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, September
28, 2021 3:23 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker
software. Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question Just cite the
"Friends" episode and provide a link to it? :) On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 4:16 PM
wrote: > OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with >
seasoned veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer > here. I
am working on the references for a client document, and have > to sort
through the existing references that I was given and make sure > it is
accurate, current, etc., and I came across a couple of instances > of a
reference within a reference such as: > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al.
(2005). "Physiologically based > pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the
tissue distribution of > moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6):
1259-76. > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D,
Rowland M. > 2005. > Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1:
Predicting the > tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm
Sci > 94:1259-1276." J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152. > > > > You can see that
the first reference is embedded/cited in the second > reference. This was
not the way that I was taught a gazillion years > ago to cite an embedded
reference. Basically, if the content of the > embedded reference was
standalone in a new reference, regardless of > the source, then the new
reference was all that was cited, for example: > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy,
D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based > pharmacokinetic modeling 1:
Predicting the tissue distribution of > moderate-to-strong bases. > J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152. > > > > I looked at these papers and the content was
standalone in the second > reference and it cited the first reference for
the content, but > because the content was standalone in the second
reference, I should > cite only the second reference where appropriate.
(God, does that even > make sense. . . I am thinking of the Friends episode,
"The One Where Everybody Finds Out," > and > they don't know that we know
that they know and Joey loses his mind.) > > > > I just need some advice
from some seasoned writers about how to handle > this. > > > > Thanks! > > >
> TVB > > > > > > > > > _ > > > < >
https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign= >
sig-e > >
mail&utm_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_camp >
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=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut >
m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>> > and confirmed virus-free. >
___ > > This message is from the
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the list's > homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at >
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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Harding, Dan]

But why even reference the original article? Doesn't the revised/republished 
article supplant the former entirely, so just cite it? I've not seen this type 
of recursive citing before. Seems extraneous to me.

-Dan



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Jeff Coatsworth
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 6:42 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

I've never seen an embedded reference in all my years in university. I would 
have thought that the second one would have just quoted the title of the first 
one - e.g.


Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue 
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.


and ditched the first location - IMHO, that's not part of the title of the 
second article.



From: Framers 
 on behalf 
of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com 
Sent: September 28, 2021 5:16 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] OT: Reference question

OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned 
veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am working on 
the references for a client document, and have to sort through the existing 
references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current, etc., and I 
came across a couple of instances of a reference within a reference such as:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based pharmacokinetic 
modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases." J 
Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue 
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J Pharm 
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second reference. 
This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to cite an 
embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded reference was 
standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then the new reference 
was all that was cited, for example:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based pharmacokinetic 
modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second reference 
and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the content was 
standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the second reference 
where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I am thinking of the 
Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out," and they don't know that 
we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)



I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle this.



Thanks!



TVB








  _


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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Jeff Coatsworth]

I've never seen an embedded reference in all my years in university. I would 
have thought that the second one would have just quoted the title of the first 
one - e.g.


Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.


and ditched the first location - IMHO, that's not part of the title of the 
second article.



From: Framers 
 on behalf 
of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com 
Sent: September 28, 2021 5:16 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] OT: Reference question

OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned
veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am working
on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the
existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current,
etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a
reference such as:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of
moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second
reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
cite an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded
reference was standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then
the new reference was all that was cited, for example:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based pharmacokinetic
modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second
reference and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the
content was standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the
second reference where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I
am thinking of the Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out," and
they don't know that we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)



I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle this.



Thanks!



TVB








  _


<https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-e
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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

LOL! How I wish. Tammy Van Boening Tammy dot vanboening at
spectrumwritingllc dot com www.spectrumwritingllc.com -Original
Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, September
28, 2021 3:23 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker
software. Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question Just cite the
"Friends" episode and provide a link to it? :) On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 4:16 PM
wrote: > OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with >
seasoned veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer > here. I
am working on the references for a client document, and have > to sort
through the existing references that I was given and make sure > it is
accurate, current, etc., and I came across a couple of instances > of a
reference within a reference such as: > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al.
(2005). "Physiologically based > pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the
tissue distribution of > moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6):
1259-76. > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D,
Rowland M. > 2005. > Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1:
Predicting the > tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm
Sci > 94:1259-1276." J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152. > > > > You can see that
the first reference is embedded/cited in the second > reference. This was
not the way that I was taught a gazillion years > ago to cite an embedded
reference. Basically, if the content of the > embedded reference was
standalone in a new reference, regardless of > the source, then the new
reference was all that was cited, for example: > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy,
D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based > pharmacokinetic modeling 1:
Predicting the tissue distribution of > moderate-to-strong bases. > J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152. > > > > I looked at these papers and the content was
standalone in the second > reference and it cited the first reference for
the content, but > because the content was standalone in the second
reference, I should > cite only the second reference where appropriate.
(God, does that even > make sense. . . I am thinking of the Friends episode,
"The One Where Everybody Finds Out," > and > they don't know that we know
that they know and Joey loses his mind.) > > > > I just need some advice
from some seasoned writers about how to handle > this. > > > > Thanks! > > >
> TVB > > > > > > > > > _ > > > < >
https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign= >
sig-e > >
mail&utm_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_camp >
aign=s > ig-email&utm_content=emailclient > > > Scanned by McAfee > < >
https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign= >
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=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut >
m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>> > and confirmed virus-free. >
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the list's > homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at >
http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ > Subscribe and
unsubscribe at >
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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Peter Gold]

Just cite the "Friends" episode and provide a link to it? :)


On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 4:16 PM  wrote:

> OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned
> veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am
> working
> on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the
> existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current,
> etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a
> reference such as:
>
>
>
> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
> pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of
> moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.
>
>
>
> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M.
> 2005.
> Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
> distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J
> Pharm
> Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.
>
>
>
> You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second
> reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
> cite an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded
> reference was standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then
> the new reference was all that was cited, for example:
>
>
>
> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based
> pharmacokinetic
> modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
> J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.
>
>
>
> I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second
> reference and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the
> content was standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the
> second reference where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I
> am thinking of the Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out,"
> and
> they don't know that we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)
>
>
>
> I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle
> this.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> TVB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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[Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned
veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am working
on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the
existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current,
etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a
reference such as:

 

Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of
moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.

 

Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.

 

You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second
reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
cite an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded
reference was standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then
the new reference was all that was cited, for example:

 

Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based pharmacokinetic
modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.

 

I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second
reference and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the
content was standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the
second reference where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I
am thinking of the Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out," and
they don't know that we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)

 

I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle this.

 

Thanks!

 

TVB

 

 

 


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